By land, air, and sea!

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

I have seen threads on "What if the Fellowship to a sea route?" "What if they went this way nto that way!?" I was wondering, and pardon me if this has ben brought up before, if it would have been easier to take a passage by air. As we all know by modern warfair, those whole rule the sky's rule the war. So if maybe one Elf, or one Hobbit, took to the back of Gwaihir, flew to the pinicale of Mt. Doom, and then cast the ring from there, would the war not be over sooner and safer? I understand the Nazgul would have their Fell beasts but in accordance with those Elrond and Co. could trick the eye's of Mordor as Aragorn did at the Black Gates.
As I see it, after the counsil of Elrond, Aragorn and Boromir would travel to Gondor and Rohan to gather a force, Gimli could return to Erabor, and Legolas to Mirkwood, they could muster a force to counter Mordor and Dul Guldur alng with Lorien and Imladris. Gondor/Rohan would be the main focus of attack for Mordor as was in the book but with all the peoples of ME acting as one it will keep all eyes off One hobbit, on One Eagle. Also the remaining eagle army could defend agasint the Nazgul and the Fell beasts.
Yet as I read my theory one strange question springs up in my mind, would Gwaihir have desired the ring? Could there have been a Eagle Lord of the Ring!? So... what do you think of this Airborne means of attack!? Could it work!? And what of Gwaihir?
Also feel free to discuse other means of getting the task done, as the title says, by land air and sea, so what other means sound like a better game plan!?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I to have asked this question before being told that it was nonsense and wouldn't succed.

[BeardofPants]

Doubtfully. The whole purpose of the mission wasn't to ring the doorbell and alert sauron to the fact that the ring had been found, and was in possession of Frodo. It would have been just too risky....

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Sauron knew that the ring was found. Thats why the nazgul were dispatched! Do you think that the nine were randomly released on the shire!? Of course not, anything ta that point was risky, a fellowship walking to mordor was more risky than anything i can think of. Frodo moving with great spead and great stealth upon an eagle would be easier and quicker and safer than anything else. The attention would have been pulled of Frodo and the eagle by the armies of ME! Ring the doorbell you say, inevitably that is what Tolkien did have them do! Aragorn rang the doorbell at the black gates! So the airial plan would not be the "Hello I'm Here!" tactic you seem to think it'd be, after all, Sauron knew the ring was found, he had Gollum, he sent the nine to recover the ring in the Shire, his eye was then fixed on Imladris! Once the council was formed Sauron was already laying down plans to get the ring from them!

[Radagast The Brown]

Halbarad, I'm sure Sauron could see the eagles coming. He might even not be able to stop them when they're flying, if the Nazgul weren't there, but if he guards the Mountain, knowing they'll go there, they'll have no chance to ruin the Ring. While in our story, Suaron didn't know of the Fellowship, or thought they were going to try to ruin the Ring - he thought they were going to fight over it and try to use it against him.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

If his eye can see such a broad span then surley he could see two hobbits walking past his own land and thru it. I don't expect The council to tell Sauron, hey we're sending eagles! The main host of men, elves, dwarves, and eagles will be somehwere else! Gwhair flys far south then up the harad region, and to Ordruin from the south. If Sauron beleived that Aragorn or Elrond or aomeone else of the "war" diversion had the ring he would put all forces to defend and attack them. If he thought they had the ring, one eagle flying south, even if he could see it, would be of no importance to him. He would not know the errand of the eagle, so it would be essentialy the same, only quicker and safer.

[Radagast The Brown]

If his eye can see such a broad span then surley he could see two hobbits walking past his own land and thru it. I don't expect The council to tell Sauron, hey we're sending eagles! The main host of men, elves, dwarves, and eagles will be somehwere else! Gwhair flys far south then up the harad region, and to Ordruin from the south. If Sauron beleived that Aragorn or Elrond or aomeone else of the "war" diversion had the ring he would put all forces to defend and attack them. If he thought they had the ring, one eagle flying south, even if he could see it, would be of no importance to him. He would not know the errand of the eagle, so it would be essentialy the same, only quicker and safer.Eagles flying towards Mordor will be noticedmore easily, I n my opinion, than hobbits, walking in Ithilien, or going through Cirith Ungul. Even if there's a diversion.
Also, I don't think the Eagles waere supposed to help the people of Middle Earth so much - to solve their problems. They were senders of Manwe, and if he wanted to just save them he could, easily.
Moreover, I think it's much more interesting as it is - think of how short it'd be if they just needed to go up an eagle, fly and throw the Ring to Mount. Doom.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Of course it is uneventful, and it is simple, but intelligently, from a military tactical viewpoint it would have been, probably, the smartest way to go. I would not dream of changing the book, im speaking hypothetically. What if, and wouldn't this be a better [tacticly] method!?
Also the eagles helped several times in the aid of the destruction of the ring. Providing Gandalf with airial transport more than once, providing a defense against the Nazgul at the Black Gates, providing a transport and an air lift for Frodo and Samwise. I with the current plan the eagles were used quite a bit more. Iam not saying that elrond would command them to do his bidding, I feel they would have willingly helped, as they alreay did in the documented book.
Finally, like I said the eagles would not fly diretly over Barad-dur, or directly towards Orodruin. From the south would be the most stealthy. Also As the eagles flies is faster than anything else can move, even they flying nazgul could not match speed, however in my theory they would not be present. Gaurds would not be placed to guard something Sauron would not expect to be attacked; Ordruin.

[BeardofPants]

Sauron knew that the ring was found. Thats why the nazgul were dispatched! .... blah blah blah

Halbarad, can you stop yelling... I'm not deaf you know! (Oh wait, yes I am. :rolleyes: )

I know that Sauron already knew that the ring had been found. Sheesh. Keep your pants on. (unless of course you want to give them to me.) The point is that by air, you can be seen for miles off. On the ground, you'd stick out no more than an ant would. Mordor was well guarded. How do you propose to have the party swoop down without being taken down by either the nazgul, or some other fell creature? The whole point on having Aragorn's party ring the doorbell was so that the backdoor would be not be watched, that is true. But there is a difference between a small hobbit (and remember hobbit's have the ability to not be seen when they want, this is why hobbits were so important in the war of the ring, and the plundering of smaug) slipping through the back door, and a giant ruddy eagle swooping down towards Mt. Doom which is only a stone's throw from Sauron's place of leisure...

[trolls' bane]

I agree with both of you (this is about the time the sheep should come in and shout "Four legs good, two legs bad"). But to do so, I would have to combine both of your theories. I think that it would be a good idea to fly to Mordor, but not all the way to Mt Doom. Perhaps dropping off the hobits near the Sea of Nurnen, thus avoiding Saruman, and Merry and Pippin's imprisonment, but unfortunately Gandalf the Grey would suffer not becoming the White. Or, better yet, fly in, but, if it was possible, the joined armies of the Dwarves of Erebor/Elves of the Lonely Mountain attack Sauron from the top/back, some of Gondor goes and attacks the south, the rest of Gondor and Rohan attack from the front, so while Sauron is occupying his time with that, the eagles fly in without them being noted, and it's all over, at least for sauron, I guess.

[Lefty Scaevola]

I strongly suspect that sauron had defensive power against ariel spies and other intrusion aloft, and until he and the Barad Dur collapse, that nothing flew over Gogorth without his permission.

[BeardofPants]

*strongly suspects that Lefty may have something there...*

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Or, better yet, fly in, but, if it was possible, the joined armies of the Dwarves of Erebor/Elves of the Lonely Mountain attack Sauron from the top/back,
Elves of Erebor? :confused:

[Valandil]

I agree with both of you (this is about the time the sheep should come in and shout "Four legs good, two legs bad"). But to do so, I would have to combine both of your theories. I think that it would be a good idea to fly to Mordor, but not all the way to Mt Doom. Perhaps dropping off the hobits near the Sea of Nurnen, thus avoiding Saruman, and Merry and Pippin's imprisonment, but unfortunately Gandalf the Grey would suffer not becoming the White. Or, better yet, fly in, but, if it was possible, the joined armies of the Dwarves of Erebor/Elves of the Lonely Mountain attack Sauron from the top/back, some of Gondor goes and attacks the south, the rest of Gondor and Rohan attack from the front, so while Sauron is occupying his time with that, the eagles fly in without them being noted, and it's all over, at least for sauron, I guess.

It has been noted before that the Eagles were never intended to be a 'Middle-earth taxi service'... they were CERTAINLY not the Strategic Air Force of the Grand Field Marshal of the Middle-earth Good Guys.

They might occasionally do a favor for a friend who had proven himself true, if they happened to be around... but they were not reservists to be called up in time of trouble.

The fate of the Ring was left in the hands of the Free Peoples of Middle-earth. That did not include Eagles. Nor do I think Hobbits would have taken to such a sea voyage... and from Rivendell, it would take almost as long to even REACH the sea as to reach their final goal, with less friends along the way. And besides... what if they get there and manage to get themselves a 9-person boat? So then they're out in the sea and get surrounded by a fleet of Corsairs from Umbar...

Bad scene... really bad.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

It was destroyed anyway so as long it was destroyed it doesn't matter how they do it.

[Attalus]

AARGH! This argument, again. If I've said it once, I've said it a hundred times. Mount Doom was like Mount St. Helens. There was no open caldera (crater). Show me one citation that there was an open crater. You had to go into the Sammath Naur, where the Ring was forged to get rid of the Ring. It was at the end of a long tunnel. If Sauron had the slightest idea that they were going to try to destroy the Ring, one troop of Orcs at the opening to the Sammath Naur would have caused the Quest to fail. And, anyway, Frodo wouldn't have been able to give up the Ring! There. I feel better, now. :p

[BeardofPants]

'Tis okay, attalus... Just lie down, and it'll all feel better in the morning. ;) Maybe you'll feel up to another Wing debate, then? :evil:

[Radagast The Brown]

'Tis okay, attalus... Just lie down, and it'll all feel better in the morning. ;) Maybe you'll feel up to another Wing debate, then? :evil::D

I agree with both of you (this is about the time the sheep should come in and shout "Four legs good, two legs bad"). But to do so, I would have to combine both of your theories. I think that it would be a good idea to fly to Mordor, but not all the way to Mt Doom. Perhaps dropping off the hobits near the Sea of Nurnen, thus avoiding Saruman, and Merry and Pippin's imprisonment, but unfortunately Gandalf the Grey would suffer not becoming the White. Or, better yet, fly in, but, if it was possible, the joined armies of the Dwarves of Erebor/Elves of the Lonely Mountain attack Sauron from the top/back, some of Gondor goes and attacks the south, the rest of Gondor and Rohan attack from the front, so while Sauron is occupying his time with that, the eagles fly in without them being noted, and it's all over, at least for sauron, I guess.If Attalus is correct, and Sauron would put guard on Smmath Naur if he thought there's the slightest chance they're goign to try to destroy the Ring - then the best way will not be to fly with teh Eagles. If one of Sauron's servants saw the Eagles - and this is likely to happen - then I think Suaron would think of the possibility they're going to destroy the Ring. My opinion, at least..

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

But couldn't the eagles just be a scout or something? There is nothing in an eagle flying over land that screams out "im on a mission to destroy the ring!" Also like I have said before, Sauron(in this theory) would know as much of a "Destruction" plan as he did in Tolkiens Masterpeice. As I set it forth it was that Sauron had no idea still except the the ring was found, that there was no guard at or near Mt. Doom, and they made a tactical move to use the assisistance of the eagles.(who freely gave their service lets just say)

[Forkbeard]

But couldn't the eagles just be a scout or something? There is nothing in an eagle flying over land that screams out "im on a mission to destroy the ring!" Also like I have said before, Sauron(in this theory) would know as much of a "Destruction" plan as he did in Tolkiens Masterpeice. As I set it forth it was that Sauron had no idea still except the the ring was found, that there was no guard at or near Mt. Doom, and they made a tactical move to use the assisistance of the eagles.(who freely gave their service lets just say)


No, the eagles are also the messengers, eyes, and ears of Manwe....I think Sauron might take exception to an eagle flying over Mordor, for whatever reason.

FB

[BeardofPants]

Yes, that is true. Sending eagles over mordor would be the equivalent of sending the crebain over moria... There's just no way that Sauron would write-off the eagles as random beasties doing a pass-over.

[Attalus]

No, the eagles are also the messengers, eyes, and ears of Manwe....I think Sauron might take exception to an eagle flying over Mordor, for whatever reason.

FBAt the very least, the sight of a Great Eagle flying over Mordor would make him think something was going on that he did not understand, causing him to rethink his whole position, The whole idea was to confirm Sauron in his belief that the Ring was going to Minas Tirith to be used agaist him. Anything that indicated otherwise would pose grave risks. It's like being at gunpoint and taking a swift jab at your enemy. Maybe, just maybe you'll get a lick in and knock him out, but probably you'll get shot, as opposed to drugging his drink with a sedative he doesn't know that you have.

[Michael Martinez]

Using the Eagles of the Misty Mountains to dive-bomb Mordor with the One Ring was never an option for the Council of Elrond. This absurd topic has been whittled to the bone across thousands of discussions. There was no one at the council who had the authority to speak on behalf of the Eagles and even when Elrond and Aragorn sent out their scouts, no one was able to locate Radagast, so he never contributed anything else to the cause.

Gandalf's relationship with the Eagles was a personal one, not a professional one -- that is, his task was not to coordinate Ents and Eagles in their efforts against Sauron, but rather to help Men and Elves resist Sauron.

There was no way the Eagles were going to be involved in the story at that point. It was a complete, total impossible, and no amount of wishful WHAT IF rationalization can even come close to altering the boundaries of the tale which Tolkien provided.

The Eagles were not an option, not a possibility, not an underutilized resource, not involved, not there for the sake of dropping Rings of Power into volcanoes, not charged with solving a problem created by the Elves, not responsible for bringing Rings of Power to Mordor, nor in the least bit aware of the location of the Ring or the necessity to destroy, much less predisposed to participate in, propose, or carry out any actions against Mordor which would have pre-empted all the choices that had yet to be made by the Free Peoples.

[Attalus]

Yeah, what he said. :D

[Forkbeard]

Using the Eagles of the Misty Mountains to dive-bomb Mordor with the One Ring was never an option for the Council of Elrond. This absurd topic has been whittled to the bone across thousands of discussions. There was no one at the council who had the authority to speak on behalf of the Eagles and even when Elrond and Aragorn sent out their scouts, no one was able to locate Radagast, so he never contributed anything else to the cause.

I don't know that its absurd. While I agree that for all sorts of reasons, the eagles were not an option, I don't think that the topic is absurd. After all no representitive of the Ents or the Woses was at the Council either, yet they played their parts in the War and so in the Quest.

Gandalf's relationship with the Eagles was a personal one, not a professional one -- that is, his task was not to coordinate Ents and Eagles in their efforts against Sauron, but rather to help Men and Elves resist Sauron.


I always thought it was to coordinate the Free Peoples of Middle Earth--so then the question is whether or not the Eagles of the Misty Mtns and the Ents and huorns count as "Free Peoples" or not.


The Eagles were not an option, not a possibility, not an underutilized resource, not involved, not there for the sake of dropping Rings of Power into volcanoes, not charged with solving a problem created by the Elves, not responsible for bringing Rings of Power to Mordor, nor in the least bit aware of the location of the Ring or the necessity to destroy, much less predisposed to participate in, propose, or carry out any actions against Mordor which would have pre-empted all the choices that had yet to be made by the Free Peoples.

Well, the claim is interesting, and for the most part I agree with the conclusion. But the point of the discussion from our end is to show WHY this is so, not merely to declare it. I think Attalus, Val, and others have done an adequate job of doing just this, so I'll not repeat their comments here. But I have difficulty with just declaring something is so, because....

FB

[Michael Martinez]

I don't know that its absurd. While I agree that for all sorts of reasons, the eagles were not an option, I don't think that the topic is absurd. After all no representitive of the Ents or the Woses was at the Council either, yet they played their parts in the War and so in the Quest.

They also happened to live in the path of the Fellowship. The Eagles did not, and thus played no part until the very end, when of their own volition they provided support to the Army of the West.


I always thought it was to coordinate the Free Peoples of Middle Earth--so then the question is whether or not the Eagles of the Misty Mtns and the Ents and huorns count as "Free Peoples" or not.

From "The Istari" in UNFINISHED TALES:

...Emissaries they were from the Lords of the West, the Valar, who who still took counsel for the governance of Middle-earth, and when the shadow of Sauron began first to stir again took this means of resisting him. For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men or Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.

Nothing about "coordinating" anyone, much less Ents and Eagles.

Well, the claim is interesting, and for the most part I agree with the conclusion. But the point of the discussion from our end is to show WHY this is so, not merely to declare it.

The why cannot be shown, since none of us speak for Tolkien. One can only point out the obvious.

[Forkbeard]

They also happened to live in the path of the Fellowship. The Eagles did not, and thus played no part until the very end, when of their own volition they provided support to the Army of the West.

Who? The Wose? The Ents? Which "they" do you speak of here? As for the Eagles, might I remind you that BEFORE the Fellowship left Rivendell messengers/lookouts did go to the Eagles of the Misty Mountains and sought news, and the Eagles had none to tell. See the 2.3 The Ring Goes South: "Even from the Eagles of the Misty Mountains they learned nothing." The fact that Elrond's messengers knew where to find the Eagles, knew to speak to them, brings up the question under consideration.




From "The Istari" in UNFINISHED TALES:

Nothing about "coordinating" anyone, much less Ents and Eagles.

Ah, I see the problem for you is the word "coordinate" which I took from your penultimate post in the first place. So let's say this: Gandalf's mission was "to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt." Now in your penultimate post of 10-03 you say, "that is, his task was not to coordinate Ents and Eagles in their efforts against Sauron, but rather to help Men and Elves resist Sauron." It seems to me that Tolkien himself says your wrong unless you want to try and argue that Sauron would not seek to dominate and corrupt Eagles, Ents, Woses, Hobbits, and Dwarves since your claim seems to say that Gandalf's mission to "to help Men and Elves." I'll side with Tolkien on this one.

The why cannot be shown, since none of us speak for Tolkien. One can only point out the obvious.

Oh please. If its that obvious then the why is in plain sight. As you know well this question has been asked and discussed on every Tolkien board in existance and in print. IF it is so obvious there would be no need to ask the question. This is mere escapism on your part, in my view.

FB

[Valandil]

...The fact that Elrond's messengers knew where to find the Eagles, knew to speak to them, brings up the question under consideration...


My biggest problem with the 'Eagle Intervention' possibility is that it would have made for a VERY boring story. I mean... this whole Middle Earth thing just would NOT have caught on! Just try writing it that way (anyone!) and see how it comes out... :p

[Michael Martinez]

Who? The Wose? The Ents? Which "they" do you speak of here?

The only "they" I mentioned, obviously.

And there is no textual evidence of any contact between Elrond's messengers and the Eagles of the Misty Mountains. In fact, all contact between Eagles and everyone OTHER than Radagast was stipulated by Tolkien to be iniiated by the Eagles themselves.

Ah, I see the problem for you is the word "coordinate" which I took from your penultimate post in the first place.

You neglected to also take "NOT TO" with the coordinate.

So let's say this: Gandalf's mission was "to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt."

Which is NOT TO coordinate.

Since I'm not disagreeing with Tolkien, obviously, you are in the wrong.

Oh please. If its that obvious then the why is in plain sight.

Wrong again. The "why" is never in plain sight, since we don't know why Tolkien made the choices he made except where he explained himself.

And he never anticipated the need to address the question of why the Eagles didn't fly the Ring to Mount Doom and drop it in.

[Michael Martinez]

My biggest problem with the 'Eagle Intervention' possibility is that it would have made for a VERY boring story. I mean... this whole Middle Earth thing just would NOT have caught on! Just try writing it that way (anyone!) and see how it comes out... :p

I don't have a problem with the "Eagle intervention" absurdity. It doesn't even approach the realm of possibility because no one who advocates such a route has ever been able to show how it would have been accomplished.

It's not like Elrond had a little red phone sitting in his library, by which he could contact the Eagles' Eyrie. Nor did he have a searchlight to shine up into the night sky.

The Eagles were beyond the reach and scope of the Council of Elrond, and that much is pretty obvious to anyone who looks at the texts. Of course, if anyone can point to a passage which shows that Elrond would have been able to contact the Eagles, I would enjoy reading it -- especially if it were actually written by J.R.R. Tolkien himself.

[Olmer]

Of course, if anyone can point to a passage which shows that Elrond would have been able to contact the Eagles, I would enjoy reading it -- especially if it were actually written by J.R.R. Tolkien himself.
Can I have a pleasure?:evil:
"In no region had the MESSENGERS discovered any signs or tidings of the Riders or other servants of the Enemy. Even from the EAGLES of the Misty Mountains they had learned no fresh news." (FOTR,The Ring goes South.)

[Michael Martinez]

Can I have a pleasure?:evil:
"In no region had the MESSENGERS discovered any signs or tidings of the Riders or other servants of the Enemy. Even from the EAGLES of the Misty Mountains they had learned no fresh news." (FOTR,The Ring goes South.)

And where does that passage indicate that Elrond's messengers initiated the contact?

Tolkien wrote far less about the Eagles than people assume. It's one thing for the Eagles to swoop down out of the sky, ask how things are going, and perhaps agree to a further exchange of information.

It's quite another for Elrond to ask the Eagles if they would be willing and capable of taking the Ring to Mordor.

How is Elrond supposed to make contact with the Eagles in order to convey such a request? His scouts spent up to two months scouring the land. That's hardly an efficient means of communication.

[Nurvingiel]

I always thought of the Eagles of as good beings who helped Middle-earth when they felt like it. Bailing people out is not what the Eagles were sent to do. Let's think of times we've seen them.
In the Hobbit, they rescue Gandalf, Bilbo, and the Dwarves. This is because they had been the observing the orcs for some time, and knew that they were planning something evil. They rescued Bilbo and co. because they wanted to thwart the orcs plans. But they would not carry the company much farther beyond the Misty Mountains.
Gwaihir rescued Gandalf from Orthanc. Gandalf was only able to contact the Eagles because of Radagast IIRC, and then I think he really owed Gwaihir big time.
They also helped in the Battle of the Five Armies because they wanted to disrupt whatever the orcs were up to. I also think, that the Eagle's good nature makes them want to help people in Middle-earth. At the Battle of Five Armies, they saw the effort of the Dwarves, Elves, and Men, and helped as well. However, delivering the Ring to the Cracks of Doom would be single-handedly saving everyone, and that wasn't their style. That's why they saved Frodo and Sam after, but did not carry them there in the first place.

[Earniel]

Well put, Nurv. I agree. :)

But I think we've veered well away from the original topic by now.

[Forkbeard]

And where does that passage indicate that Elrond's messengers initiated the contact?

Where doesn't it? It does not say that the Eagles initiated contact or came down and wanted to have a nice chat with some Elven warrior types skulking about the Wild. Granted, it doesn't say that the Eagles did initiate contact either.

But I will point out that the entire paragraph is about Elrond's messengers/scouts actively searching and inquring about Gollum, about movements of the Enemy and the Nine, seeking any sign or information. I. E. they are the active agents of the paragraph. The context suggests that Elrond's messenger's initiated contact, not the Eagles.

Tolkien wrote far less about the Eagles than people assume. It's one thing for the Eagles to swoop down out of the sky, ask how things are going, and perhaps agree to a further exchange of information.

It's quite another for Elrond to ask the Eagles if they would be willing and capable of taking the Ring to Mordor.

But the fact that there is contact, and that Gandalf is charged with assisting and uniting all those whom Sauron would wish to destroy or dominate, then it follows that the request could be made, and it is obvious to ask why this avenue wasn't explored. There are sound reasons why it wasn't, and those can be articulated. But the question is far from absurd.

How is Elrond supposed to make contact with the Eagles in order to convey such a request? His scouts spent up to two months scouring the land. That's hardly an efficient means of communication.

Efficiency isn't really possible in Middle Earth, save in circumstances such as huge flying beasts such as the Nazgul ride that can cover the distance from Mordor to Orthanc in a matter of hours; or through means of the Palantir. Gandalf spent months on top of Orthanc before Gwahir came bearing tidings....as you say hardly an efficient means of communication, but there it is, right there in the book Tolkien wrote. Further, Galadriel seems to have contact with the Eagles, who according to Gwahir himself commanded Gwahir to find Gandalf and bear him to Lothlorien. If Galadriel had contact, it is likely that Elrond did too, at the very least through her if not directly.

FB

[Michael Martinez]

Where doesn't it?

Tolkien was under no obligation to anticipate and debunk every nonsense argument years in advance. If you want to take up the banner for having Elrond (during the Council) get on the Bat-phone to contact the Eagles, feel free to cite a passage where he initiates contact with the Eagles (which was my original request).

The passage cited above in no way indicates that Elrond's messengers initiated contact with the Eagles. And it certainly doesn't show how the Council of Elrond could have contacted the Eagles, much less asked them to carry the Ring to Mordor.

But the fact that there is contact,

Is irrelevant, since the passage doesn't indicate who initiated the contact, much less that Elrond and Gandalf could have called up the Eagles on the spot and requested a Mordor flyby to avoid all the nonsense about sneaking past Sauron's forces with the Ring.

and that Gandalf is charged with assisting and uniting all those whom Sauron would wish to destroy or dominate, then it follows that the request could be made,

Wrong again. See above. In order for it to be possible that "the request could be made", you need to show that A) they had the means to communicate with the Eagles (and they clearly did not) and B) that they had the right to ask the Eagles to undertake such a journey (and Elrond specifically denied having the right to request that anyone make such a journey, much less the Eagles).

Efficiency isn't really possible in Middle Earth,

Odd, how those 30 Dunedain showed up in Rohan, isn't it? That's pretty danged efficient in my book. Aragorn didn't even have to send for them.

Amazing how Gandalf was able to assist Frodo in resisting the Ring's influence enough to take it off while he sat atop Amon Hen as Sauron searched for him, isn't it? That's pretty danged efficient in my book.

Curious how Denethor knew about the movements of Gandalf and company in Rohan, isn't it? Seems rather efficient to me.

Quite stunning, how the Woses and some of the Rohirrim understood that the wind was changing just before the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, isn't it? The timing of Aragorn's arrival on that fateful is pretty darned efficient, too.

Perhaps these were all just conveniences of the plot, but what is an efficiency, if not a convenience of the plot?

Communication and coordination were achieved with amazing efficiency despite the lack of time, technology, and resources.

So, you're wrong again.

[Nurvingiel]

Well put, Nurv. I agree. :)

But I think we've veered well away from the original topic by now.
Thanks Eärniel! I think there actually is a thread on this somewhere. Maybe this part should merge, or we should all wander over there, or something.

Because this discussion is interesting; I think Michael makes good points as well. :) (Sorry FB, I just don't agree with you, and you don't have sufficient evidence to back it up IMHO ;) )

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

There is the thread by land, sea or air which this discussion would fit into nicely.

[Earniel]

Consider it done. Valandil, I'm AGAIN ahead in the splitting threads race! ;)

[Nurvingiel]

Nice split Earniel! But of course you're ahead - you've been a mod for much longer IIRC. ;)

I think it's worth pointing out that though Michael has sufficient evidence to say that the Eagles were not an option for destroying the Ring, you don't have enough to say that Forkbeard's question was absurd. This is a subjective opinion of his question, while your evidence is objective. :)

[Forkbeard]

Tolkien was under no obligation to anticipate and debunk every nonsense argument years in advance.

Then why not close down this Tolkien board, and all the others? After all, Tolkien was under no obligation to anticipate and debunk all the theories that everyone on all these boards are discussing, so of what use is it to ask questions and debate? If we follow your logic here, none.

More to the point, while you might disagree with the idea or suggestion (and so do I), you have yet to prove or establish anything regarding its absurdity. This might be your opinion and you're entitled to it, but you are not stating it as your opinion, but rather as a categorical truth.

Anyway, your statement here has little to do with the argument. You claim that the citation Olmer quoted doesn't say that Elrond's messenger's initiated contact--true enough it doesn't. But it also does not say that the Eagles initiated contact which is your contention against Olmer's suggestion. Plainly the citation doesn't support your contention; but it does show that before the Fellowship left, there had been contact between Elrond's reps and the Eagles and IF the Eagles wanted to help or could be asked to help, that contact makes that scenario possible. There are other reasons why the Eagles wouldn't or couldn't be an option, but "lack of contact" or "lack of an ability to contact" (which seem to be your position) isn't it.

Finally, on this statement, I'll note that you ignored the context of the citation, so I'll take it that that argument stands, thanks.


If you want to take up the banner for having Elrond (during the Council) get on the Bat-phone to contact the Eagles, feel free to cite a passage where he initiates contact with the Eagles (which was my original request).

I've been very clear in my position throughout my posts in this thread. To reiterate, it is that the idea of using the Eagles is not an absurdity. It was not a real possibility within the confines of the story, but is not an absurdity to ask and explore. So no banner toting, derisive, fallacious logic needed; just good old fashioned reasoned argument with citations from the text.

In your post of Oct. 03, you didn't make a request, you made an assumption: that contact with the Eagles and asking their help could not be done AT THE COUNCIL, and so no other time could be used, and that the Eagles were outside Gandalf's mission (being only to Men and Elves in that post). Both of these assumptions are incorrect.

First, it isn't necessary to restrict the time to the Council itself. The only thing decided at the Council was that the only real hope lay in destruction of the Ring in the fires in which it was made and Frodo volunteering to carry it. The idea of a "Fellowship" and its construction was decided later, in fact AFTER the scouts had returned and AFTER contact with the Eagles had been made.

Second, the very quote from UT that you provided shows that Gandalf's mission was to unite ALL those who would stand against Sauron, so unless you want to argue that the Eagles didn't want to or that Sauron would not have sought to dominate them, then Gandalf's mission extends to them too. QED.

The passage cited above in no way indicates that Elrond's messengers initiated contact with the Eagles. And it certainly doesn't show how the Council of Elrond could have contacted the Eagles, much less asked them to carry the Ring to Mordor.


This is an unnecessary condition. Why would it be necessary for Elrond or his messengers to initiate contact? As long as contact is made, that is all that is necessary to make the request that the Eagles be involved. Whether they would have or not is a different question.

Second, you're supposing that Elrond had no way of making contact, and assuming that the Eagles initiated the contact with the messengers. YOu need to prove that contention or drop it from your argument. IF Elrond's messengers initiated that contact, and the text doesn't say one way or the other, then Elrond obviously had a way of making contact. AND if he didn't, certainly Galadriel did, for Gwahir tells us that she commanded him to find Gandalf and bring him to Lothlorien, unless of course you want to try and argue that the Eagles were in the habit of dropping by Lothlorien for a bit of tea now and then.

Finally, I will point out that the Fellowship was formed AFTER the Council, and AFTER contact with the Eagles, there was nothing preventing the Eagles' being asked to be involved either at that point, or when the Fellowship is in Lothlorien.


End Part I
FB

[Forkbeard]

Part II


Wrong again. See above. In order for it to be possible that "the request could be made", you need to show that A) they had the means to communicate with the Eagles (and they clearly did not)

Prove it, don't assert it like its the Gospel. They obviously did have means as I've already pointed out.
As for being wrong, let me quote Tolkien again for you: "to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt." Sounds like the Eagles would be involved in that description; if not, you need to prove it.


and B) that they had the right to ask the Eagles to undertake such a journey (and Elrond specifically denied having the right to request that anyone make such a journey, much less the Eagles).

They had no right to ask anyone unless they were willing. So why not ask the Eagles if they were willing? Its a valid question, not an absurd one.


On the question of efficient communication, after selectively snipping,

Odd, how those 30 Dunedain showed up in Rohan, isn't it? That's pretty danged efficient in my book. Aragorn didn't even have to send for them.

Nope, not at all. Considering that in approximately 3 weeks the Fellowship went from Rivendell to Caradhras on foot, in winter, traveling often at night surely a group of men on horses in haste can cover the distance from Rivendell to the Gap in the same time. We don't know when or how Galadriel sent word (it was she after all who told Gandalf to tell Aragorn to remember the Dunedain, and so it can be assumed that she sent the summons in his name), but figuring she did so as the Fellowship was leaving Lothlorien, and didn't use magical means or an eagle, that gives an elf on a swift horse 10 days to get to Rivendell, or the Shire depending on where Hal was found, gather 30 men and light provisions, and another 10 days to get to the Gap. Entirely possible, but not lightning quick and efficient either.


Amazing how Gandalf was able to assist Frodo in resisting the Ring's influence enough to take it off while he sat atop Amon Hen as Sauron searched for him, isn't it? That's pretty danged efficient in my book.

How is that "efficient", and Gandalf's post "sent back" abilities are hardly normal Middle Earth activity. And he didn't "assist", he sent a mental message, assistance of a kind I suppose.


Curious how Denethor knew about the movements of Gandalf and company in Rohan, isn't it? Seems rather efficient to me.

Had you not so precipitously snipped my last post you would have seen the following statement: "Efficiency isn't really possible in Middle Earth, save in circumstances such as huge flying beasts such as the Nazgul ride that can cover the distance from Mordor to Orthanc in a matter of hours; or through means of the Palantir." Since we know that Denethor knew about those movements through that means, it is excluded for consideration by my statement. Thanks.

Quite stunning, how the Woses and some of the Rohirrim understood that the wind was changing just before the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, isn't it? The timing of Aragorn's arrival on that fateful is pretty darned efficient, too.

Which has nothing to do with communication with Eagles or anyone else, the topic under consideration. This that you cite here is called foreshadowing, and may be an efficient tool on the part of the author, but hardly proves anything about efficient communication within the confines of Middle Earth.


Communication and coordination were achieved with amazing efficiency despite the lack of time, technology, and resources.

Thanks for disproving your own point. If you recall you were saying that since Elrond didn't have his Batphone plugged into the patio at Rivendell during the Council, he couldn't just call up the Eagles and pass the time of day before asking them to solve the world's problem. You have gone on to say that because of that lack of efficiency and the scouts taking two months to take a look-see and so on, that there was no way to contact the Eagles. Now you tell us that communication and coordination were achieved with amazing efficiency, in spite of lack of time, technology, and resources......so that being so, there is no reason why Elrond could NOT have been in touch with the Eagles since lack of time, technology, or resources were obviously not the problem!!!!!!!!! SO thanks, the establishes that possibility, and now perhaps we can address Olmer's suggestion about the eagles with valid reasons why the eagles couldn't or wouldn't be involved rather than just dismiss it as an absurdity.

FB

[Forkbeard]

The only "they" I mentioned, obviously.
You didn't mention a "they", hence the question for clarification.


And there is no textual evidence of any contact between Elrond's messengers and the Eagles of the Misty Mountains.

Yes there is, Olmer has already cited it. YOu may disagree about whether or not Elrond's messengers initiated contact, but it is very, very clearly evidence of contact.

In fact, all contact between Eagles and everyone OTHER than Radagast was stipulated by Tolkien to be iniiated by the Eagles themselves.

Stipulated? Where does Tolkien stipulate this?

And in fact, the example of Galadriel suggests otherwise.



Which is NOT TO coordinate.

You're still missing the forest for the trees. You stated that Gandalf's mission was to help Men and Elves resist Sauron and so therefore the Eagle's were outside his "professional" relationship. This, by your own citation of UT, is false: according to that citation Gandalf's mision included all those whom Sauron "would endeavour to dominate and corrupt", which includes the Eagles, making them part of Gandalf's "professional" mission. Ok, so he wasn't to "coordinate", just SEEK TO UNITE them all in love, at least according to Tolkien. So, to quote you, "Since I'm not disagreeing with Tolkien, obviously, you are in the wrong".


Wrong again. The "why" is never in plain sight, since we don't know why Tolkien made the choices he made except where he explained himself.

YOu once again are missing the point. The question is not why Tolkien did this or that, but why from within the story the Eagles are not utilized in the effort to get rid of the Ring. If you don't think that valid reasons for this non-use are given in the text of the LoTR but rather rest solely in the mind of Tolkien, then why are you claiming reasons from within the story? Seems contradictory to me. So you still need to provide valid reasons why this is an absurdity, and better reasons for why the Eagles weren't used. You might want to read over the thread, some very good suggestions along the latter line have been made by various people.


And he never anticipated the need to address the question of why the Eagles didn't fly the Ring to Mount Doom and drop it in.

So? That doesn't excuse the characterization of a perfectly good question as "absurd" or to claim that the reasons why it is absurd are in plain sight and have no need to be articulated, nor that, when we get down to the question itself, that the reasons why the Eagles were not a viable part of the Fellowship should not be just as carefully articulated.

FB

[trolls' bane]

I'm too lazy right now to read all of that and you've already convinced me you're right. Whatever you were right about I have yet to read. ;)

[Nurvingiel]

Is all we're discussing at this point whether or not FBs question was absurd? Of course it wasn't! I think the answer is no, but that does not mean it was a dumb question.

[Forkbeard]

Is all we're discussing at this point whether or not FBs question was absurd? Of course it wasn't! I think the answer is no, but that does not mean it was a dumb question.

Actually it was Olmer's suggestion in his POV. I think there were good responses to him earlier in the thread by you, Attalus, even I chimed in. But his point was neither absurd, nor would it not work for any of the reasons MM has proposed.

[Nurvingiel]

Oh, oops. Well it still wasn't absurd.

But that is a Moot point, as they say. ;)

[Fat middle]

Well, if this thread wasn't absurd at the begining, it is certainly begining to be it.

Everybody have agreed about the topic, so I'm closing this.

If anybody is interested in further discussions about the concept of absurdity he/she is welcome to beging a thread at GM :p

... but remember to make a search first. I suspect it may have been done before :D