Were the Elves allies to Gondor?

[Olmer]

This discussion is split off the thread Free will versus destiny (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=11439) as it deserved its own thread.


And I would also say that given Sauron's plan, the Elves staying and protecting their own lands was exactly right: Sauron divided his forces and fought on too many fronts instead of the crushing blow on Gondor first, then pick off the others piece by piece.
FB
Considering that Sauron was not such an idiot to fight in too many places at once, and that Dol Guldur was not a major stronghold and had been keeping over there a couple of garrisons at most, not the army, it had to be a good reason to send the Dol Guldur's orcs on self - destruction mission.

The matter is that after Mordor’s intrusion in Osgiliath the existence of Gondor has been hanging out by the thread. As an allies Thranduil and even so Celeborn was REQUIRED to send a military help to Denethor.
If they somehow could avoid a participations in the fights before the inflammation of the military conflict , then in the crucial moment their presence in the war was MANDATORY.The Elves lords were in the need of an extremely convincing reason not to get in this massacre.
Sauron very well understand this, he doesn’t need the Elves on the Pelennor field also. And he gives to Lorien what it silently begging - an imitation of the storm.
But you won’t send kamikazes from Mordor where every single fighter has been accounted for ,and Dol-Guldul is just right for such cook up.
And when orc’s catapults began to strike mallorns on the Golden wood’s border , the Firstborn breathed with relieve:” Sorry Denethor,we would like to help, but we are ourselves in tight spot, fending off three attacks in two weeks ”…

[Earniel]

The matter is that after Mordor’s intrusion in Osgiliath the existence of Gondor has been hanging out by the thread. As an allies Thranduil and even so Celeborn was REQUIRED to send a military help to Denethor.
But were they allies? At least, I never had that impression. From the book I got the feeling that Gondor reckoned only Rohan as its ally. Neither Mirkwood or Lothlórien are mentioned anywhere by Gondoreans as a possible source of aid (at least to my knowledge). I assumed most Gondoreans hardly knew where these realms lay or even knew who ruled there. Only Rohan has sworn alligence to Gondor through the oath or Éorl and only to Rohan was sent the red arrow in request for aid.

But we're degressing, aren't we? Shall we make a new thread to discuss this further? :)

[Attalus]

Hey, I'd post on that. Boromir seemed to have no idea of the Elves riding to Gondor's aid, only "our allies in Rohan."

[Olmer]

But were they allies?
They used to be , especially in the Second age. In the War of the Last Alliance Oropher “assembled a great army” and “joining with the lesser army of Malgalad of Lorien he led the host to the battle” as an independent from the supreme command of Gil-Galad” army.(UT, History of Galadriel).
It ‘s hard to believe that the later rulers of Gondor, the far-sighted and skillful politician, were not keeping an information about theirs potential (even if now used- to -be) alliances.They still had a mutual enemy.
The question is : why the Elves should be required to be present on the most crucial for ME existence battle on the Pelennore field?
Because they were “hysterically screaming” more and louder than anybody else about the danger of the doom to everyone on the ME and the need to unite and together withstand the Enemy. And nevertheless in the critical fights on Pelennor’s and Cormalen’s field were not been involved any Elve’s troops. It’s understandable that in the Third age the Elves preferred to be an agitators, not a soldiers… :evil:
But how you can possibly explain it to your allies?
And the terrible fortress of Dol Guldur presents this possibility.
In the March 11, 3019, four days before the Pelennore field’s battle, an untroubled vacation of DolGuldur’s garrison has ended. Mean officers with swearing and kicking raised up sleepy and fat orcs and run them up to storm the Lorien.
As a rule the primary goal in the attack on majorities classical fortresses is a penetration the defensive perimeter, the walls, so to say. But Lorien is a unique place. This “fortress” all the way through consist of the defensive perimeters, and the amount of sniper’s towers is equal to the amount of the trees in it .It’s a suicide to storm such “monster” without an artillery!! And the needed necessary outweighing amount of the attackers is even hard to imagine.!
But any way orcs were attacking the Lothlorien!(???) And, of course, they went headlong and smashed their foreheads. .But on March 15 they attacked again, what is more they are going up to not only Celeborn, but Thranduil also!
And one week later the third attack on the Golden woods!
The first thought which is coming to mind: they ate too much of hallucinogenic mushrooms… :rolleyes:
But if you will look at it more scrupulously, the “strategic convulsions” of Dol-Guldur is becoming more reasonable.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But were they allies? At least, I never had that impression. From the book I got the feeling that Gondor reckoned only Rohan as its ally. Neither Mirkwood or Lothlórien are mentioned anywhere by Gondoreans as a possible source of aid (at least to my knowledge). I assumed most Gondoreans hardly knew where these realms lay or even knew who ruled there. Only Rohan has sworn alligence to Gondor through the oath or Éorl and only to Rohan was sent the red arrow in request for aid.

But we're degressing, aren't we? Shall we make a new thread to discuss this further? :)
Yes, I think a new thread on this would be good. I also didn'tget the impression that they were allies. Look at the way the Gondorians (and Rohirrim) referred to Galadriel.

[Earniel]

They used to be , especially in the Second age. In the War of the Last Alliance Oropher “assembled a great army” and “joining with the lesser army of Malgalad of Lorien he led the host to the battle” as an independent from the supreme command of Gil-Galad” army.(UT, History of Galadriel).It ‘s hard to believe that the later rulers of Gondor, the far-sighted and skillful politician, were not keeping an information about theirs potential (even if now used- to -be) alliances.They still had a mutual enemy.
Indeed, but between the Last Alliance and the War of the Ring there are some three thousand year, that may be but a few years in Elven reckoning but we're talking a nigh eternity in human years. Even considering the longer lifespans of the exiled Númenoreans three thousand year is a lot of generations of Men.

The last time Elves and Men fought together was around 1975 TA, to defeat the Witch King of Angmar, (Valandil's favorite period) but Gondor came to aid Arthedain with whom they still had some tie of kin and to whom the then-current king of Gondor, Eärnil, had promised aid when Arvedui would need it. Still, that was over a 1000 year ago, at the time of the War of the Ring. And there are no mentions of any possible alliance between the Elves and Gondor at that time. Rohan wasn't even founded at that time but before the founding of Rohan and after Gondor was in peril for several times and never did the Elves come to their aid. To me that indicates that they had no longer ties of alliagence in the Third Aera.


The question is : why the Elves should be required to be present on the most crucial for ME existence battle on the Pelennore field?
Because they were “hysterically screaming” more and louder than anybody else about the danger of the doom to everyone on the ME and the need to unite and together withstand the Enemy. And nevertheless in the critical fights on Pelennor’s and Cormalen’s field were not been involved any Elve’s troops. It’s understandable that in the Third age the Elves preferred to be an agitators, not a soldiers… :evil:
Were they 'screaming' more loudly than everybody else? I wouldn't say so. The Elves took little to no initiative to unite the nations of Men with their own after the Last Alliance. The Last Alliance, is IMO, named correctly, i.e. the last one. If the Elves were screaming about the impending doom, they apparently did so in the privacy of their own dwellings.

I think the Elves dimished greatly during the Third Age, especially in number. They also became less and less involved in what happened in Middle-earth, leaving it more and more to humans to shape Middle-earth. Considering the constant Elven-talk of 'fading' and 'leaving' I'd be surprised if there had been Elven forces fighting in Gondor. But I agree partly with what you say (although I wouldn't use the term agitators ;)) that the Elves prefered to work behind the scenes (eg by harbouring the descendants of Arvedui) than to fight openly in battles in the Third Aera.


But how you can possibly explain it to your allies?
And the terrible fortress of Dol Guldur presents this possibility.
In the March 11, 3019, four days before the Pelennore field’s battle, an untroubled vacation of DolGuldur’s garrison has ended. [...]
But if you will look at it more scrupulously, the “strategic convulsions” of Dol-Guldur is becoming more reasonable.
I get the feeling you're suggesting a certain alliance between the orcs and the Elves (I seem to remember you suggested something similar before in another thread) but then how could the Elves possibly be allies to Gondor at the same time? Surely Denethor "the far-sighted and skill-full politician' would have noticed that?

Don't hesitate to prove me wrong, Olmer, as always I'll be interested in your reply. :)

[Count Comfect]

I think that the "Last Alliance," while still young in the memory of, say, an Elrond or a Celeborn, is far too far for Gondor to consider. After all, they already doubt that the King will ever return - yet the Kings died out many many generations after the Last Alliance. If the Kingly line is dead, why should not the elvish alliance be?
Also, it bears mentioning that Sauron could very well be foolish enough to attack too many places at once. Many notable military minds of our own earth (Robert E. Lee, Hannibal, George Washington, just to name 3) at one time or another divided their forces instead of going for one crushing hammerblow at a crucial point. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. This could be one of the doesn'ts.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Also, it bears mentioning that Sauron could very well be foolish enough to attack too many places at once. Many notable military minds of our own earth (Robert E. Lee, Hannibal, George Washington, just to name 3) at one time or another divided their forces instead of going for one crushing hammerblow at a crucial point. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. This could be one of the doesn'ts.

I think Adolf Hitler is worth noting here. As Sauron and Hitler have a bit in common. Due to his dual front in the West and in Russia Hitler came to his end.

[Attalus]

I do not think the Elves considered themselves military allies of the Kingdoms of Men after the Last Alliance. As was pointed out, there was abroad a distrust of the Elves, ("They are Elvish wights...") doubtless sewn by the lies of Sauron or even the remnant of Morgoth's. The Elves were fighting a rearguard action to protect the Havens and the roads to the sea, so that their escape route would not be cut off. Only a few far-sighted and wise Elves like Galadriel and Elrond still considered the war against Sauron, but they were concerned with the North, not Gondor. A pity, but true.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think at need the elves would had ridden to Gondors aid but not done as the Rohirrim did and ride to their aid when they were summoned.
Had they stayed during the Fourth Age though it may have been a different case. Aragorn being bought up among them and Arwen being their ex-princess.

[Attalus]

Remember Boromir's words. " Only from Rohan will any men ride to us when we call." and "The might of Elrond is in wisdom, not in weapons, it is said." The only aid that he looked for was in unraveling hard words, and advice. Yet, that is aid, of a sort, impossible to obtain, otherwise.

[Ñólendil]

I think at need the elves would had ridden to Gondors aid but not done as the Rohirrim did and ride to their aid when they were summoned.
Had they stayed during the Fourth Age though it may have been a different case. Aragorn being bought up among them and Arwen being their ex-princess.

I disagree. I don't think the Elves would have ridden to Gondor. The Men of Gondor were in need, and no Elves went to their aid, for though Galadriel with mist once aided Men in late Third Age battles, neither the Galadhrim of Lothlorien nor the Elves of the Woodland Realm were political allies of Gondor. The land of Dwimordene (Lothlorien) was held in suspicion and fear, and I do not know if the average Gondorian soldier even knew of the Elves in the Woodland Realm (in Northern Mirkwood). Little was known of Rivendell even to scholars, and I'm sure little more was said of the Grey Havens.

All of these Elven peoples knew of Gondor, but they had their own wars to fight. I don't think there was a sufficient army to send from Mithlond or Imladris, and yet leave enough behind should the war turn ill, and many battles were fought in Lorien and Mirkwood, including the great Battle Under the Trees, the Beornings, Woodmen, Elves of Celeborn and Elves of Thranduil all fought against the Enemy.

[Olmer]

To me that indicates that they had no longer ties of alliagence in the Third Aera.
I didn’t talk about the Elves’ allegiance to anybody , but to their own words.
Allies is too strong word for Elves to hope for in political situation at the beginning of the Third Age. With theirs behind the scene politics they lost the trust among other nations of Free People, but fortunately they still had many sympathizers.
The Fellowship was put together with representatives from the different races of the Middle -earth, which were still considering them as trustworthy and fearless race, and seems like came for their advise and help in the time of distress, and such assembly made with a very direct purpose: to change the Middle-earth political picture in more favorable to the Elves.

Then , while you smartly discuss how to bring Sauron to his end (by somebody else hands, by the way), and while your spokesman- Gandalf , “delighting to bear ill news”, was trumpeting all around the ME about impending doom if Men and other “Free People” won’t do something with this insufferable Lord of the Rings, how you can explain to your sympathizers that at the time, when deeds worth more than any words, the “fearless Elves” prefer to withhold from any action which could bring elves's blood spilling, because they" little concerned with the ways of...any other creature upon earth",(FOTR) ...Let men or whoever else themselves get out of their ****.

They needed a diversion to save their faces. And they have got it.
And indeed, 3 days after Sauron’s downfall Celeborn crossed Anduin and straight away took inaccessible fortress of Dol Guldur.I honestly hope that by that timethe major part of orcs, whatever left from Dol Guldur garrison, managed to abscond the place.
But now to all titles and deeds of the Lord of the Galadrim he could add a “veteran of the War of the Ring”, and nobody can accuse him of hiding behind.


The Elves took little to no initiative to unite the nations of Men with their own
They also became less and less involved in what happened in Middle-earth,...
Finally, you agreed on my words that they are really don’t give a damn about what will happened to the folk of Middle-earth which makes a quite hypocritical all their later pretense about helping to a Mankind in saving the World .

I'd be surprised if there had been Elven forces fighting in Gondor.
When even 30 Dunedain was counted for, definitely a host of Elves, which was sent to defend the Northern border in time of the Fellowship vacation in Lorien would be not unneeded, and the skillful fighters like Glorfindel and Elrond alone would create a noticeable dent in Sauron’s army.

I get the feeling you're suggesting a certain alliance between the orcs and the Elves
Surely Denethor "the far-sighted and skill-full politician' would have noticed that?

I was suggesting certain trade connections between orcs of Moria and the Elves . Between Sauron and them was never ceased animosity, not the war. After defeat of the Witch King of Angmar the Elves completely withdrew from any fight, save local clashes with orcs, and Sauron didn’t bother them too much, it was kind of a certain unspoken cooperation.
Denethor preceived it and did not trust them and didn‘t expect them.
And he was right. Didn’t he?
They had a great chance to prove otherwise, but…it never happened.










.

[Attalus]

You lost me at the part about commerce between the Orcs of Dol Guldur and Lothlórien. I challenge you to find any reference in the entire Legendarium where the Elves said or did anything about the Orcs except detestation or constant war. The Elves of Lothlórien were too few to send to Gondor, since they were all needed to defend Lothlórien from Dol Guldur. Elrond had even fewer at his disposal, one house full and all the way to go bewteen Imladris and Gondor. I think that the Elves hated and feared Sauron and would have done anything to destroy him, but they had been betrayed before by both Men and Dwarves. As Haldir says, they could not by their trust endanger their own lands.

[The Gaffer]

Yes, I think we're in danger of ignoring the evidence of the primary texts here.

There was no alliance between Lorien and Gondor. People in Gondor and Rohan spoke of the "Lady of the Golden Wood" with fear and suspicion, (remember Gimli's feud with Eomer), and no-one had the faintest idea where Imladris was. Certainly, no-one from either country had had any significant dealings with the Elves for many generations.

The estrangement of the foes of Sauron was one of his greatest achievements, as Gandalf points out at the Council of Elrond. Each has their own problems to contend with.

From the literary perspective, that's an important point. Part of the moral of the tale, I think, is that people need to look beyond their own immediate circumstances to see the broader good.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I disagree. I don't think the Elves would have ridden to Gondor.
So you are saying if Elrond and the other host of elves that went with him stayed in ME they would have let war engulf Gondor and its people. I don't think that Elrond would let Arwen would die just because she became mortal and was of mankind. Her brothers certainly would not and maybe even her Grandparents (Celeborn and Galadriel) would have sent elves to her aid.

[Olmer]

I challenge you to find any reference in the entire Legendarium where the Elves said or did anything about the Orcs except detestation or constant war. .
Sometimes words could be deceiving, and you are getting the whole picture by analizing the actions.It's not what the Elves said, it's what they did.

I won't accept you challenge because, as I can see, you are taking the given story at face value and don't want to go deeper than that .
But anyway you can find my point of view in the post #33 under subject:"What would the Balrog have done if the ring had fallen into his hands".

[Radagast The Brown]

So you are saying if Elrond and the other host of elves that went with him stayed in ME they would have let war engulf Gondor and its people. I don't think that Elrond would let Arwen would die just because she became mortal and was of mankind. Her brothers certainly would not and maybe even her Grandparents (Celeborn and Galadriel) would have sent elves to her aid.I don't really understnad you... If Gondor had lost the battle, Aragorn was dead and Arwen would probably go to Valinor and be an elf.

I agree with Nolendil and Gaffer - the Elves wouldn't go to help Gondor. The Elves of Lorien and Mirkwood had their own war, I think, and couldn't let any soldiers go; and the there weren't enough Elves in Rivendell to make a change. If Mordor won the battle - meaning, if Frodo didn't get to the Mountain to thrwo the Ring - nothing wouldv'e stopped Sauron.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I mean if the elves had stayed in Middle-Earth into the Fourth Age and Gondor was under attack by a force greater than that on the Pelennor Fields the surely the elves would have ridden if only to just save Arwen. I can't imagine Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir just watching Gondor and their daughter/sister be destroyed.

[Radagast The Brown]

I mean if the elves had stayed in Middle-Earth into the Fourth Age and Gondor was under attack by a force greater than that on the Pelennor Fields the surely the elves would have ridden if only to just save Arwen. I can't imagine Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir just watching Gondor and their daughter/sister be destroyed.It wouldn't happen, so I can't really see why you give this example - but I guess they would go to Gondor. Like they went to save Celebrial. (sp.)

[Ñólendil]

I mean if the elves had stayed in Middle-Earth into the Fourth Age and Gondor was under attack by a force greater than that on the Pelennor Fields the surely the elves would have ridden if only to just save Arwen. I can't imagine Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir just watching Gondor and their daughter/sister be destroyed.

Many Elves did stay in the Fourth Age, but that aside, this is such a hypothetical question it is hard to imagine the answer. It would depend on the circumstances, ... but if Rivendell did not send an army in the War of the Ring, why would they send one in the Fourth Age? You suggest they would go to "save Arwen", but that would suggest the only reason Rivendell did not help much in the War of the Rings because they're own people were not in immediate danger in the land of Gondor. I disagree with this--Rivendell did not send an army for a few different reasons, but one of them would have to be that sending enough to make a difference would deplete their own defenses, and leave no one left to defend or flee should the tide of War sweep into Eriador. Anyway, in the Fourth Age Arnor was rebuilt, and the Reunited Kingdom of Arnor and Gondor was a mighty one. Any army large enough to crush it would not be bothered by a force of Imladris.

Gondor and Rohan actually did go to war in the far East (and possible South, I don't remember), many times, before Elessar passed away.

But what are you driving at?

[Attalus]

There wouldn't be enough around after Fourth Age 1, when Galadriel, Elrond and Gandalf had left the preceding year. The flight of the Elves, as I understand it, was quite precipitate after Sauron was defeated. The remaining Elves would be solitary Caliquenti and Nandor uninterested in marching off to war. True, Celeborn, Elladan, and Elrohir might still be around, but I seriously doubt that they disposed of much force.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Even a few elves attached to a human army would be a great asset with their evelven senses and flexible sleep cycle. Their would add very much as scouts and night pickets.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Many Elves did stay in the Fourth Age, but that aside, this is such a hypothetical question it is hard to imagine the answer. It would depend on the circumstances, ... but if Rivendell did not send an army in the War of the Ring, why would they send one in the Fourth Age? You suggest they would go to "save Arwen", but that would suggest the only reason Rivendell did not help much in the War of the Rings because they're own people were not in immediate danger in the land of Gondor. I disagree with this--Rivendell did not send an army for a few different reasons, but one of them would have to be that sending enough to make a difference would deplete their own defenses, and leave no one left to defend or flee should the tide of War sweep into Eriador. Anyway, in the Fourth Age Arnor was rebuilt, and the Reunited Kingdom of Arnor and Gondor was a mighty one. Any army large enough to crush it would not be bothered by a force of Imladris.

Gondor and Rohan actually did go to war in the far East (and possible South, I don't remember), many times, before Elessar passed away.

But what are you driving at?
I'm not saying that they didn't go to Gondor because their own people were in danger, only that there would be more of an initiative to go to Gondor.

[Durin1]

I can't see where the Noldorin realms (Imladris and Lindon) were going to get sufficient numbers for an army.

As for Lothlorien and Mirkwood elves (and don't forget the Dwarves of Erebor and Men of Dale, Beornings etc): they had war on their own doorstep, although it is not clearly chronicled in the book ( look at the appendices).

The culture and power of Gondor had been in decline for a good many years before. Their memories would have been short also. Eventually, through the passing of time and numerous battles for survival, the Gondorians became insulated and concerned only with their own problems. They had allies in their neighbours The Rohirrim, but other than that they would have hardly mingled with any of the other races of peoples during the third age. Hence, they forget about Ents, find Lorien perilous (being "old wives' tales" according to Boromirs summation of the general thoughts of the people of Gondor towars the Lady of the Golden Wood).

Also, don't forget that ME is a big place. The Elves of Mirkwood would have been about 800 - 900 miles from Minas Tirith. Imladris is far off and now known only to a few. Gondor's navy is not as big as it used to be and they don't travel to Mithlond anymore. Moria doesn't exist anymore (in the sense of Dwarves maintaining a powerful realm there) and the Dwarves have dispersed, either to the north and east or to the far off Blue Mountains.

The fact is that ME was beginning to be dominated by Men. They had to be prepared to take responsibility of Me after the power of elves and dwarves waned. That is why Aragorn is groomed to unite the efforts of Men and to rule a unified realm of Arnor and Gondor.

Two of the most poignant scenes in LoTR for me are between Legolas and Gimli: Firstly, when they are is Helm's Deep and they discuss how they would like some of their own people with them. Legolas states that they wouldn't come, battle is raging over there too (paraphrased). Secondly, after the great victory on the Pelennor and in anticipation of Aragorn's coronation, they talk about a few "stuff" and Legolas comments that "the works of Men will out last us, Gimli".

In short, that is why there is no "strategy" in conbining forces in Gondor. Men are required to deal with the problem since they will be governing ME in the near future.

[Draken]

I would agree that there was nothing like a formal alliance between the elves and Gondor. The last such alliance had been millenia before, and both sides had much distrust of the other.

Also, don't forget that few Grey Elves and fewer High Elves remained in Middle Earth. The days of mighty Elven firewpower were long gone. The majority of remaining elves were Wood Elves, and The Silmarillion tells us that after early terrible losses, they played little part in the War of the Jewel. Now, if they felt they couldn't take an active part in evenkind's greatest ever war, would their descendents march to the aid of Gondor?

I would see the elves of the 3rd Age as being a defensive power only, able to defend their woodlands (aided in the case of Lothlorien by defensive magic), but knowing full well that to venture out and do open battle would be near-suicide, and would play into Sauron's hands.

[Durin1]

Also, don't forget that few Grey Elves and fewer High Elves remained in Middle Earth. The days of mighty Elven firewpower were long gone. The majority of remaining elves were Wood Elves, and The Silmarillion tells us that after early terrible losses, they played little part in the War of the Jewel. Now, if they felt they couldn't take an active part in evenkind's greatest ever war, would their descendents march to the aid of Gondor?

Yes, but the green Elves of Ossiriand were themselves distantly related to those elves who continued to stay east of the misty mountains and the vales of Anduin. Their reasons for taking less active part in the war of the jewels was that it was not their war. they desired to come to Beleriand, not to sail oversee, but to find new lands. They were also not a warlike people.

Anyway, as someone has already mentioned; Oropher led a large force to the Last Alliance, along with Magalad/Amdir of Lorien (as did Durin IV of Moria). Wasn't that coming to the "aid" of Gondor in a manner of speaking?

In the council of Elrond, it is stated by Elrond himself that there will be no such alliance of Elves and Men again, since "Men multiply while the firstborn decrease (i.e. leave ME) and elves and men have been sundered and estranged in later days" [paraphrased].

The elves have their own problems within their own lands to even contemplate going to the aid of Gondor even if they had the numbers, which they do not (despite Peter Jackson's ridiculous sending of elves to Helm's Deep) :rolleyes:

[Michael Martinez]

Sometimes words could be deceiving, and you are getting the whole picture by analizing the actions.It's not what the Elves said, it's what they did.

I won't accept you challenge because, as I can see, you are taking the given story at face value and don't want to go deeper than that .

I have to admit to some curiosity about how one can "go deeper than" the "story at face value".

It sounds very much to me like you are using the Uzi Rule. That is, since Tolkien didn't anticipate the assumption that Orcs carried Uzis, he didn't deny that they carried Uzis, and since he didn't deny as much, it must be true that they really did carry Uzis.

[Valandil]

I have to admit to some curiosity about how one can "go deeper than" the "story at face value".

It sounds very much to me like you are using the Uzi Rule. That is, since Tolkien didn't anticipate the assumption that Orcs carried Uzis, he didn't deny that they carried Uzis, and since he didn't deny as much, it must be true that they really did carry Uzis.

Olmer's ideas go a bit beyond that. His ideas are quite unorthodox, and indeed he's the only person I've encountered who holds them (though he claims to not be alone). He has put together what he considers inferences, and what seems like 'coincidences' to the rest of us to form some unusual theories about motivations and alliances of Elves, Istari and Orcs.

But I can't really do him justice. If you have the time, do a search of his posts and start with the earlier ones. You would probably have a much greater base of knowledge than me for an attempt to 'debunk' his theories, if you'd want to take the effort.

Meanwhile, he sure keeps things 'interesting' around here. ;) I don't think he has won any 'converts' yet, but he keeps trying. :) :p

[Beleg Strongbow]

Well, here's my take on why the Elves did not come to the Pelennor:
"The might of Elrond lies in wisdom not weapons..."
-Boromir, The Council Of Elrond

I think that someone has been influenced by the movie portrayal. Peter Jackson chose to represent the battle at the gates of Minas Tirith as the single decisive battle of the War of the Ring when in fact it was only the opening salvo. "Here the hammer-stroke will fall hardest" said Gandalf. And it did indeed, but also on Lorien, on Mirkwood, on Erebor... If Smaug had not been destroyed - see Unfinished Tales - "there might be no Queen in Gondor now" because Sauron attacked everywhere, with all he had. The elves could not come to the aid of Men at Helm's Deep or at Minas Tirith because they were fighting their own wars.

It is also interesting the theory of Elf/Orc "implied understanding" sees the Eldar as having a vested interest in changing the politics of Middle-earth when in fact they were preparing to leave it forever. The War of the Ring, as is reiterated many times by Tolkien, ended "both in victory unlooked-for and in sorrow long forseen." The time of the Elves was ending. The dawn of the Age of Men came because the Eldar withdrew from Middle-earth and the politics thereof, not because they attempted to influence it.

It is ridiculous to concieve of the Firstborn ever having alliances with the Orcs in the light of Tolkien's work. The theory that they might have had "tacit understandings," as evidenced by simplistic interpretations of the actions of tribes and nations subject to many outside pressures, withers in comparison to Tolkien's outright efforts to depict the absolute state of war between Elf and Orc. The Elves hated the Orcs more than almost any other servant of the Shadow because of the origins of the Orcs. In no way whatsoever would the Elves have sullied themselves by associating with the Orcs. Nor would the Orcs have associated with any of the Free Peoples, as Tolkien makes quite clear. "They hate us much more, and all the time. If they had seen us, they would have dropped their quarrel until we were both dead." (Frodo, The Land Of Shadow) I'm not sure how the Elves and Orcs would come to an understanding if neither would do more than slay the other.

[Olmer]

...there will be no such alliance of Elves and Men ]there was nothing like a formal alliance between the elves and Gondor
People! I was not talking about an alliance, I was talking about DECENCY.
I understand the eagerness of all of you to defend the “beautiful Elves”, to keep their image untarnished.
But they themselves had been working hard on theirs discreditation since the dawn of the days . :cool:
In their traits they hardly different from Men : they could be greedy and mirthless, pretensious , gullible and deceivable.

It is not the question whether they had enough of people to send a help, because the ridiculous “wars” they had can’t compare in any way with the battles on Pelennore and Cormallen fields, which was crucial for a peaceful existence of the whole ME .
Cirdan and Elrond had not have a dare need to defend themselves at that time. Newertheless non of the living there mighty Noldor rushed to help to so much “favored” by them Aragorn in his grave struggle, save for Elladan and Elrohir. But even they, as I said before, was just a “Coronation Committee”, not an aid…

How you can dignify a person who is sitting in safe and beautiful garden looking at his neighbor’s house, engulfed in flame, and giving a prediction on what worse might happened, instesd of running out and offering whatever real help he can provide?
You would probably have a much greater base of knowledge than me for an attempt to 'debunk' his theories
Thanks for sicking one more Tolkien’s expert on me!!! Like I didn’t get enough of kicks from all around !!:p
(Sucking the air and seating himself comfortale on the ice-packs.) Truth hurts… :(
That is, since Tolkien didn't anticipate the assumption that Orcs carried Uzis, he didn't deny that they carried Uzis, and since he didn't deny as much, it must be true that they really did carry Uzis.

Since Tolkien did not deny that Orcs had been using some kind of machinery, invented by Saruman and Sauron, than he anticipated an assumption that the Orcs might carry some versions of guns, say Uzis, and since he did not deny as much, it must be true that they indeed really did carry Uzis. ;)

[Attalus]

Oh, my. After that, what can one say? Actually, I can think of only one of the Noldor that was still around at that time and that was Galadriel. She was busy defending Lothlorien against Dol Guldur, and couldn't leave.

[Valandil]

Thanks for sicking one more Tolkien’s expert on me!!! Like I didn’t get enough of kicks from all around !!:p
(Sucking the air and seating himself comfortale on the ice-packs.) Truth hurts… :(


Sorry Olmer. Honestly, my intent in calling attention to your theories has never been to make your life harder, though I can see how that's probably the end result. :) :D

I was just trying to explain to Michael that your theories might have more to them than the Uzi theory. Uh... you don't REALLY believe that about the Uzi's, do you? :eek: :confused: ;) :p

[Olmer]

Uh... you don't REALLY believe that about the Uzi's, do you? :eek: :confused: ;) :p
Chill off man!... :) I just wanted to demonstrate that anything could have a different interpretation. Depends on how you are looking at it...and how you can hand it out.
Think, why lawyers are charging an astronomical fees for their service?
They are charging for a DIFFERENT INTERPRETATION of your misdemeanors. :evil: :cool:

No need to be sorry. I'm not really sitting on the ice-packs ;) (wiping cold, slushing water from the chair)...

[Michael Martinez]

Cirdan and Elrond had not have a dare need to defend themselves at that time. Newertheless non of the living there mighty Noldor rushed to help to so much “favored” by them Aragorn in his grave struggle, save for Elladan and Elrohir. But even they, as I said before, was just a “Coronation Committee”, not an aid…

Well, without extending full support to whatever else you have written (since I have not read anything else by you that I am aware of), I agree with you. The Eldar of Eriador did virtually nothing to help the War of the Ring, although Elrond did propose sending a couple members of his household along as members of the Fellowship.

However, they made the conscious decision, or the strategic choice, to do nothing at Elrond's council, because they believed that secrecy would serve everyone's purpose better in the long run. There was no time to build up another alliance against Sauron -- he was already launching attacks against his enemies. The Last Alliance of Elves and Men spent three years just marshalling, training, and equipping its northern hosts in Rivendell.

Since Tolkien did not deny that Orcs had been using some kind of machinery, invented by Saruman and Sauron, than he anticipated an assumption that the Orcs might carry some versions of guns, say Uzis, and since he did not deny as much, it must be true that they indeed really did carry Uzis. ;)

Cute, but I'm not won over.

The Uzi Rule underscores the fallacy of arguments which are based upon assumptions intended to "fill in the blanks". The elements of the world depicted by Tolkien are not nearly as complete as the elements of the story he told, but we cannot supplement his elements with our own.

At best, we can look at what attested elements in the world Tolkien depicts imply should also be there. For example, since beer is mentioned, it follows that someone was growing barley. Since wains and wagons are mentioned, it follows that someone was making wheels. Since Gandalf used fireworks made in Dale and/or Erebor, it follows that the Orcs were not the only folks using gunpowder.

But there is nothing which provides for the inference of an Uzi in Middle-earth. Nor is there anything which provides for the inference of a nuclear bomb. Hence, we cannot just assume that they could or should have been there and conclude that, since Tolkien never denied they were there, therefore they MUST have been there.

That isn't a logical extrapolation. It's just wishful thinking, or rewriting Tolkien.

If anything, absence of denial proves how hopeless an argument is, if that is all it can offer in the way of proof of anything.

[Forkbeard]

Since Tolkien did not deny that Orcs had been using some kind of machinery, invented by Saruman and Sauron, than he anticipated an assumption that the Orcs might carry some versions of guns, say Uzis, and since he did not deny as much, it must be true that they indeed really did carry Uzis. ;)

After all, there was that mysterious explosion at the wall in Helms Deep.....sounds like gunpowder to me...and where there's gunpowder, Uzi's are soon to follow. ;)

FB

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

This kind of has to do with this thread so I will post here instead of making a hole new thread. I was wondering if there were more men, and if not... why!?
It seems to me that Gondor, Rohan, and the Dunedain, seem to comprise way to few men on Middle Earth to have a dominant ratio. Were there more manish allies to Gondor and Co. that just didn't come to the fight? Or is it just Corsairs and Haradrim!?

[Valandil]

Well, without extending full support to whatever else you have written (since I have not read anything else by you that I am aware of),...

Well, if you ARE interested, here's a thread we started several months ago - when Olmer had been around for a few days and we started to piece together what he was saying. A few posts in particular will get you started. If you have the time, you may find it interesting, or amusing... or maybe it'll give your brain a little jolt (do you like shock therapy? ;) ).

Olmer's Theories (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=351725#post351725)

Basically though, Olmer conceives of Gandalf and the Elves as 'users' of Men, Hobbits, whomever else they may make use of in order to accomplish their own ends. He particularly makes a strong point that Gandalf could (should?) have known immediately that Bilbo had found the One Ring. There's more, but I'd best let Olmer describe it in his own words. And... gotta hand it to him here, he seems consistent, tries to back up what he says and sticks to his guns (uh... I don't THINK they're Uzi's :p ).

At the very least, as he once pointed out to me when I got a bit sarcastic with him, it made our forum a bit more interesting when 'The Pants Game' was one of the more active threads. :) :D

And Olmer... hopefully at least your prior posts will set the stage for you, so you don't have to repeat everything again.

[Olmer]

Were there more manish allies to Gondor and Co. that just didn't come to the fight?
The were Woodmen, Beorings, Men of Dale, Lossoths, Dunlendings, Woses, as I can recall.
In the Green Book on the One Ring.net it's an interesing chart which gives you a good idea how desperate was Gondor in his stand against Sauron.

I. Gondor and Allies
Sounthern Fiefs

Forlong (Lossarnach ) - 200 "well-armed"
Dervorin (Ringló Vale ) - 300
Duihir (Morthond ) - 500 "bowmen"
Golasgil (Anfalas) - 150 (est.) "scantly equipped"
--- (Larnedon ) - 50 (est.) "hillmen"
--- ( Ethir Anduin) - 100 "fisher-folk"
Hirluin (Pinnath Gelin) - 300
Imrahil ( Dol Amroth) 1200(est.)
(700 plus "company" on horse)

Guard of Minas Tirith

Denethor (Minas Tirith ) - 2,000 (est.)
Rohirrim
Théoden/Éomer (Rohan ) 6,000 Cavalry
Aragorn

Dúnedain (The North ) - 30
--- (Southern Fiefs) - 1,000 (est.)

Total Estimated Forces of Gondor 11,250

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

II. Mordor and Allies
Mordor and Morgul-host
Angmar/Gothmog (Barad-dûr, Minas Morgul) - 20,000 (est.)

Allies
Haradrim (Near and Far Harad) - 18,000
Others (Rhûn, Khand ) - 7,000 (est.)

Total Estimated Forces of Mordor 45,000

[Earniel]

I didn’t talk about the Elves’ allegiance to anybody , but to their own words.
Apologies, I misinterpreted then.

Meanwhile, he sure keeps things 'interesting' around here. ;) I don't think he has won any 'converts' yet, but he keeps trying. :) :p
And the ensuing discussions are interesting, even if we don't reach consensus. :)

[Olmer]

... although Elrond did propose sending a couple members of his household along as members of the Fellowship.
It was not a proposal, it was a lame suggestion Had I a host of Elves...it would awail a little".
However, they made the conscious decision, or the strategic choice, to do nothing at Elrond's council, because they believed that secrecy would serve everyone's purpose better in the long run.
Agree. It was a strategic decision to do nothing, to postpone the Ring destruction by sending the fellowship on long and dangerous quest instead of enlisting help of the lesser wizard and make the hobbits to be delivered by the eagles to the entrance of the Mount Doom in the matter of hours unharmed and without the life-time lasting nervous break-down.
The elements of the world depicted by Tolkien are not nearly as complete as the elements of the story he told, but we cannot supplement his elements with our own.
In mine view the elements of the stories, told by Tolkien ,are not nearly as complete as the world he had "glimpsed" and tried to depict, because he simply did not have enough time to oversee all connections.
Yes , we can do an implication, but they should be well based on Tolkien's words, then it woun't be a "rewriting", but a logical projection of JRRT ideas.

If anything, absence of denial proves how hopeless an argument is, if that is all it can offer in the way of proof of anything.
Cann't agree more on that!! :)
And Olmer... hopefully at least your prior posts will set the stage for you, so you don't have to repeat everything again.
Thank for your support.This link is really making my life easier, because for uninformed reader it's really difficult to grasp the whole big picture which I'm trying to "paint". :)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

It was not a proposal, it was a lame suggestion Had I a host of Elves...it would awail a little".
It was a proposal. He proposed to fill the reamining two positions of the the Fellowship (Merry and Pippins) to be filled by members of his own household.

[Attalus]

Agree. It was a strategic decision to do nothing, to postpone the Ring destruction by sending the fellowship on long and dangerous quest instead of enlisting help of the lesser wizard and make the hobbits to be delivered by the eagles to the entrance of the Mount Doom in the matter of hours unharmed and without the life-time lasting nervous break-down.

Rhadagast the Brown, if that is the "lesser wizard" of whom you speak, had no power over the Great Eagles, who were the servants of Manwe. *Sigh*

[Olmer]

It was a proposal. He proposed to fill the reamining two positions of the the Fellowship (Merry and Pippins) to be filled by members of his own household.
Oh, yes, sorry, he CONSIDER this , but seems to me did not insist on it too much.
"It's a dangerous road. The evil Nine Riders will be agaist you. You will face a lot of perils.You can't replace the skillfull in fights, strong and wise Elves which will protect Frodo from the harm and made his quest successful. I forsee that the two bumbling hobbits will seriously undermine the whole idea of the quest's speed and secrecy... "
"But we want to go!"..
"O'key!" :D :evil:

[Olmer]

Rhadagast the Brown, if that is the "lesser wizard" of whom you speak, had no power over the Great Eagles, who were the servants of Manwe. *Sigh*
They were created by Manwe and Yavanna, and they were charged to aid Elves and Men against Morgoth and did so in the first age.
It's no secret that Radagast was getting along with birds and animals of the Middle-earth. So the fact that they were "under the management" of Manwe does not exclude that they wouldn't listen to Radagast.
Gandalf asked him to enlist the help of them to spy on "anything that bears the matter on Sauron's moves" and bring the news to the Orthank.
"And the Eagles of the mountains went far and wide, and they saw many things...and they send a messenger to bring these tidings" , which happened to be Gwaihir himself.
Just to set the matter straight.*Sigh*

[Radagast The Brown]

They were created by Manwe and Yavanna, and they were charged to aid Elves and Men against Morgoth and did so in the first age.
It's no secret that Radagast was getting along with birds and animals of the Middle-earth. So the fact that they were "under the management" of Manwe does not exclude that they wouldn't listen to Radagast.
Gandalf asked him to enlist the help of them to spy on "anything that bears the matter on Sauron's moves" and bring the news to the Orthank.
"And the Eagles of the mountains went far and wide, and they saw many things...and they send a messenger to bring these tidings" , which happened to be Gwaihir himself.
Just to set the matter straight.*Sigh*The Eagles didn't listen only to Radagast; and I think it'd be wrong to say that Gandalf needed Radagast to get in touch with the Eagles. It would be much faster to go straight to the Eagles, instead of going to Radagast, who's further, and wasn't at home, IIRC, when Elrond's messengers came to Rosgobel. Tehre was no need in Radagast there.

[Michael Martinez]

Agree. It was a strategic decision to do nothing, to postpone the Ring destruction by sending the fellowship on long and dangerous quest instead of enlisting help of the lesser wizard and make the hobbits to be delivered by the eagles to the entrance of the Mount Doom in the matter of hours unharmed and without the life-time lasting nervous break-down.

Surely, you're jesting.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Gandalf just asked Radagast to ask for the help of all beasts and birds he was 'friends' with. They didn't have to help but they did.

[Valandil]

Surely, you're jesting.

Hmm... we get that from some now and then, but I've never seen Olmer advocating THAT before! :confused:

[Attalus]

They were created by Manwe and Yavanna, and they were charged to aid Elves and Men against Morgoth and did so in the first age.
It's no secret that Radagast was getting along with birds and animals of the Middle-earth. So the fact that they were "under the management" of Manwe does not exclude that they wouldn't listen to Radagast.
Gandalf asked him to enlist the help of them to spy on "anything that bears the matter on Sauron's moves" and bring the news to the Orthank.
"And the Eagles of the mountains went far and wide, and they saw many things...and they send a messenger to bring these tidings" , which happened to be Gwaihir himself.
Just to set the matter straight.*Sigh*The Eagles of the Mountains are still not under Rhadaghast's control. I'm sure he merely made the suggestion/ asked for help.

[Olmer]

The Eagles of the Mountains are still not under Rhadaghast's control. I'm sure he merely made the suggestion/ asked for help.
You are too hotheaded for a surgeon... ;) :)
Just take a deep breath and read the previous posting of Telcontar Dunedain.
I've never seen Olmer advocating THAT before! :confused:
You will be surprised, my friend.... ;) :)
Surely, you're jesting.
Not just jesting,
but suggesting... ;)

But we veered away from the main theme.
As Halbarad the Dunedain smartly noted, that besides the Elves there had been "manish" allies, who did not answer to Gondor's plea and did not come to fight .
Actually, considering the chart of Gondor's manpower in compareness with Sauron's (I gave it in the reply to Halbarad the Dunedain) you woud say that Gondor's invasion politics finally brought their fruits, and at the end of the Third age they left with very few who would streach out the hand of help to them . :(

[Durin1]

Actually, considering the chart of Gondor's manpower in compareness with Sauron's (I gave it in the reply to Halbarad the Dunedain) you woud say that Gondor's invasion politics finally brought their fruits, and at the end of the Third age they left with very few who would streach out the hand of help to them . :(

Invasion Politics :confused: They "invade" the Harad and the lands near Umbar. They did not invade the Free Peoples of the West of ME who would have been their natural allies.

It should be made clear: Nobody except the Rohirrim "stretch out the hands of help" because there is nobody to do so! The world of ME is not confined solely to Gondor you know. Lorien had its own problems; the Ents help in their own way for their own reasons; Mirkwood Elves are fighting in the North, so too are Erebor and Dale; Imladris is just a great big house, a refuge not a big, populated City!! that can send thousands of warriors!; Eriador is scarcely populated and the Rangers are few and have their own responsibilities.

Also, we know (from Unfinished Tales) that Sauron's strategy changed according to circumstance. He believes that the Ring will travel to Minas Tirith. The fact is we don't know what path the fellowship would have tread if Gandalf hadn't fallen in Moria.

In terms of lack of population, that was a result of mainly defensive wars, not imperial agression.

[Attalus]

You are too hotheaded for a surgeon... ;) :)
Just take a deep breath and read the previous posting of Telcontar Dunedain.


Me, hotheaded? At least I don't always have a scrub nurse crying outside the door of my O.R. every week like someone I know does. :p

[Earniel]

I relocated the posts concerning using the Eagles as transportation to the thread: by land, air, and sea! (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=11472)