Maeglin and Idril, and marriage

[Artanis]

I wonder if the published Silmarillion is wrong when stating that Maeglin and Idril could not marry, because they were too closely related? While browsing through Laws and Customs of the Eldar, I came by this:None of the Eldar married those in direct line of descent, nor children of the same parents, nor the sister or brother of either of their parents; nor did they wed 'half-sisters' or 'half-brothers'. Since as has been shown only in the rarest events did the Eldar have second spouses, half-sister or half-brother had for them a special meaning: they used these terms when both of the parents of one child were related to both of the parents of another, as when two brothers married two sisters of another family, or a sister and a brother of one house married a brother and sister of another: things which often occurred.But Maeglin and Idril do not fall into any of these categories.

L and C goes on saying: Otherwise 'first cousins', as we should say, might marry, but seldom did so, or desired to do so, unless one of the parents of each were far-sundered in kin.This is exactly what Maeglin and Idril are: First cousins, and Idril's mother was Elenwë, and there should be no relation between her and Maeglin's father Eöl. So it seems not correct that they could not marry. :confused:

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Maybe Turgon forbid it seeing what Eol was and think that Maeglin could become like him.

[Radagast The Brown]

Maybe Turgon forbid it seeing what Eol was and think that Maeglin could become like him.It doesn't make sense. I'm fairly sure Turgon did not think Maeglin is going to be Noldor-hating Dark Elf, and he didn't think he'd be evil too, as Maeglin was his councelor.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

He may not of thought him evil but perhaps he could see part of his father in him.

[Artanis]

My concern is not whether Turgon would accept Maeglin as son-in-law or not. I am asking: Why do the Sil say that Maeglin's desire for Idril was without hope, because "the Eldar wedded not with kin so near" while this statement is clearly contradicted in HoME 10?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Maybe it was just a mistake!

[Earniel]

My concern is not whether Turgon would accept Maeglin as son-in-law or not. I am asking: Why do the Sil say that Maeglin's desire for Idril was without hope, because "the Eldar wedded not with kin so near" while this statement is clearly contradicted in HoME 10?

I haven't read Laws and Customs yet but I guess there may have been differences among the different peoples of the Eldar. Maybe the Gondolindrim were particulary against close-kin-marriages. (Considering they were cut off from the other Eldar for a very long time I could see the logic of such a decision.)

In any case Idril was much against such a marriage and that may very well explain why Maeglin's desire was without hope anyway. Even in the possibility that close-kin-marriages were accepted in their society, he'd could never marry Idril if she did not wished to.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But would it have been allowed even if Idril had wanted it.

[Radagast The Brown]

But would it have been allowed even if Idril had wanted it.Telcontar_Dunedain, I think Earniel understood the original question. She made an assumption about the reason, and said that it wouldn't happen even if it was allowed in the Eldar for cousins to marry, because she wouldn't want it.

[Rían]

My concern is not whether Turgon would accept Maeglin as son-in-law or not. I am asking: Why do the Sil say that Maeglin's desire for Idril was without hope, because "the Eldar wedded not with kin so near" while this statement is clearly contradicted in HoME 10?I think the close-kin marriage thing is one of those things that JRRT fiddled with a bit. I think originally it was not a problem, then he changed his mind and made it something that was "not done". And that made Maeglin even more creepy.

[Ulmo]

Likely because Tolkien had not written Laws and Customs of the Eldar when he wrote the chapter, and Christopher Tolkien had not yet found/read Laws and Customs of the Eldar when he published the chapter. ;)
That's often the case when things in The Silmarillion (published work) don't agree with the Silmarillion writings found in the History of Middle-earth (especially in the most recent writings). Tolkien obviously hadn't got around to "synching" everything up, and while CT did the best he could with what he had, he admits to that the published work isn't in perfect form, often because he did not find a lot of his father's writings (in HoME and otherwise) until after the completion of the project.

[Artanis]

That's what I thought was the most likely explanation too. But I thought perhaps someone knew about other passages in HoME that could shed some light on the subject. But it seems that there are none.

Which once again proves that the published Sil is not an accurate source for information.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

You've got to remember that JRRT didn't totally finish the Sil.

[BeardofPants]

Um, I think that's a given, Telcontar... More to the point, Christopher edited in a few things incorrectly from his father's notes.

[Earniel]

...which leaves us only in the guessing stage of whether or not Tolkien last views on Elven marriages allowed these close-kin-marriages.

[Valandil]

Um, I think that's a given, Telcontar... More to the point, Christopher edited in a few things incorrectly from his father's notes.

I wouldn't be TOO indicting of Christopher Tolkien. He has done his best to give us more information, has had to work from probably a mountain of scraps of note, certainly not all in order - and not all easily dated... and he's got to be getting along in years himself - he was an RAF pilot in the early 40's after all. I appreciate the work he has done... and it's not surprising that JRRT would contradict himself or change his mind in the 50+ years he spent devising all that he did of Middle-earth and all that revolves around it.

EDIT: PS - don't know that he ever got it, but I sent a 'Thank You' card to Christopher once... about 1 1/2 years ago. I didn't have an address, so it had to go c/o the publisher. :)