Aragorn, Denethor, Theoden!?

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

I was wondering after reading through old threads on this site about Aragorns past. As it goes Aragorn traveled through Rohan and Gondor in his youth under the guise of Thorongil. It is even said somewhere that Denethor was, or seemed to be jealous of Throngil for his favor with his father Ecthelion. My question is; Do Theoden or Denethor reqognize aragorn as the man from their youth? Do they see him and remember him as Throngil? It doesn't seem that in the books they remember him. They need to be introduced to him again within The Lord of the Rings. Well, maybe just Theoden, I don't think Aragorn met with Denethor again. So what do you think? Would they have realized and remembered? Did they!?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Aragorn went to Rohan and ondor in disguise so I doubt that Theoden would have remembered him.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Does it say disguise? I don't think thered would have been much point to it? No one knew his face before that so they have nothing to compare a secretive form to.

Ecthalion: Why are you wearing that silly Disguise Throngil!?
Throngil: Because sire, i didnt want you to discover that I am...
*Aragorn removes his plastic classes and fake nose to reveal*
Throngil: That I am Aragorn!
Ecthalion: Thats nice and all but, Who the H3ll is Aragorn!?

So he disguised his name because he knew it would be important in his future but he didnt disguise his face, I don't think. It doesn't seem plausible since he was very close with Ecthelion, Denethors father and Thengel, Theodens father. Not to mention Aragorn would not look much different since he ages slower than most humans on Middle-Earth.

*had to change Thingol to Thengel... it's 4:01 in the morning here and im trying to post in at least 20 threads right now :D *

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Theoden's father is Thengel, Thingol was father of Luthien. Aragorn would have looked different. Think about how much time he spent in the wild.

[Attalus]

Aragorn did not return to Gondor until after Denethor's death, but there seems little doubt that D. knew who A. was. His words about the "wild ranger from the north to supplant me" suggest to me that he was keeping up with Aragorn, possibly through the Palantir.

[Elanor the Fair]

From Appendix A....
Therefore, later, when all was made clear, many believed that Denethor, who was subtle in mind and looked further and deeper than other men of his day, had discovered who this stranger Thorongil in truth was, and suspected that he and Mithrandir designed to supplant him.
And also, from The Two Towers, Aragorn speaks to Eomer...
"Nor indeed am I a stranger; for I have been in this land before, more than once, and ridden with the host of the Rohirrim, though under other name and in other guise. You I have not seen before, for you are young, but I have spoken with Eomund your father and with Theoden, son of Thengel."

I don't think Aragorn did not expect to be recognised.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Aragorn did not return to Gondor until after Denethor's death, but there seems little doubt that D. knew who A. was. His words about the "wild ranger from the north to supplant me" suggest to me that he was keeping up with Aragorn, possibly through the Palantir.
Aragorn looked into the palantir at Helms Deep and that is where Denethor found out from. But that was the only time he looked.

[Attalus]

Aragorn looked into the palantir at Helms Deep and that is where Denethor found out from. But that was the only time he looked.That is the only time that we know of that he looked. Denethor could not 'evesdrop' on the conversation (and struggle) between Sauron and Aragorn, since only the Osgiliath stone could converse with more than one stone at a time.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Well Aragorn would not have conversed with Denethor through the Palantir.

[Attalus]

No. My point is that I believe that Denethor was spying on Aragorn out of jealousy, using his PalantÃ*r since before the War of the Ring.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

How? Aragorn only got the Palantir after Pippin looked into it.

[Attalus]

How? Aragorn only got the Palantir after Pippin looked into it.
Denethor and probably other rulers of Gondor before him used the PalantÃ*r not just to communicate with Sauron but to spy out the countryside, locate threats to Gondor. This had obviously been a State Secret in Gondor, known only to the Kings and the Stewards, for a long time, since the PalantÃ*r had been there since the days of Isildur. You could use the PalantÃ*ri like long-range telescopes, over distance and time, like Gandalf wanted to look onto Tirion the Fair and spy on ol' Feanor. They weren't just cell-phones, for communication between the different PalantÃ*ri, though they could be used for that. I just think that Denethor had used his to keep an eye on Aragorn, whom he envied and feared.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Other rulers didn't use the Palantir before Denenthor and he only used it after Boromir died (possibly just before).

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

I don't think that is accurate Telcontar. I think I remember it stating that Denethor began using the Palantir not after Boromir's death but after his wifes death. Im not entirely sure if that is true, I just think I remember reading it somewhere. If this is true though it means Denethor was using it for a very long time, twenty to thirty years or so. Also it must be stated that when Denethor first looked into the palantir he was strong in mind and did not succumb to the will of Sauron. Even in his end Denethor really rejected Sauronquite well, it was his sorrow that made him loose all hope. Knowing this it would seem more likely that Denethor used the palantir before the loss of Boromir in this way it can be shown that Denethor was slowely cracked by the will of Sauron, using his sons death to crack him.

[Attalus]

Also, as to the use of the Palantir by any of Elendil's successors or their stewards, we have very little information, but they must have been used frequently before the fall of Minas Morgul.

[Valandil]

Also, as to the use of the Palantir by any of Elendil's successors or their stewards, we have very little information, but they must have been used frequently before the fall of Minas Morgul.

But the Stewards didn't rule until a few years after that time... other than Pelendur ruling for a year after Ondoher's death. I think JRRT's intent was that only Denethor dared to use the Anor Stone after 2050. And even he for only his last few years, I think.

[Maerbenn]

I found some passages relevant to this discussion.

Note 1 (an Author’s note) to ‘The PalantÃ*ri’ in Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth tells us: The ‘messages’ received in Gondor in 1973, telling of the dire straits of the Northern Kingdom, was possibly their [the Stones’] last use until the approach of the War of the Ring.

The essay proper contains this: His [Denethor’s] ‘grimness’ was first observable to others after his wife Finduilas died in 2988, but it seems fairly plain that he had at once turned to the Stone as soon as he came to power, having long studied the matter of the palantÃ*ri and the traditions regarding them and their use preserved in the special archives of the Stewards, available beside the Ruling Steward only to his heir. During the end of the rule of his father, Ecthelion II, he must have greatly desired to consult the Stone, as anxiety in Gondor increased, while his own position was weakened by the fame of ‘Thorongil’ and the favour shown to him by his father. At least one of his motives must have been jealousy of Thorongil, and hostility to Gandalf, to whom, during the ascendancy of Thorongil, his father paid much attention; Denethor desired to surpass these ‘usurpers’ in knowledge and information, and also if possible to keep an eye on them when they were elsewhere.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Where is the second one from?

[Attalus]

That is from Unfinished Tales, "The PalantÃ*ri"; page 407 in my (hardbacked) edition.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Thank you Attalus, that is the exact quote I was reffering to!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Do you think Denethor knew who Thorongil was and if so then that could be why he was so against the Return of the King.

[Attalus]

Do you think Denethor knew who Thorongil was and if so then that could be why he was so against the Return of the King.I think Denethor learned who 'Thorongil' was, probably after he had left Minas Tirith and returned to the North. Possibly with the use of the PalantÃ*r, but more likely through word of mouth. In a small place like Middle-earth, the knowledge of the identity of the chief of the Northern Dúnedain would be hard to keep secret from a man like Denethor. I also suspect Sauron knew that he existed, but did not know that he was the Heir of Elendil, and thus a negligible threat, especially after the rout of the Dúnedain by the Riders at Sarn Ford.