The Ring and those of power

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

This is something that has been bugging me for a while so I decided to start a thread on it.

If the Ring had passed to Valinor what would have happened. What if one of the Valar possesed it, say Manwe or Ulmo, would they have been able to conquer and possibly destroy it or would they have arisen as a new ienev more powerful Dark Lord. Does it say anything or is it something we will just never know!

[Valandil]

Well, rest easy. I think Elrond says something in the chapter 'The Council of Elrond' about how those in the West would not receive it... that it belonged to Middle Earth and was for those in Middle Earth to handle the situation.

[Radagast The Brown]

They could surely resist the temptation. And I don't think the Ring will affect them, as they're mcu hstronger than it, and than Sauron. I'm not sure if they could destroy it - I believe they could. But that the people of Middle Earth could not sail for them to help - they had to solve this themselves.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Well, rest easy. I think Elrond says something in the chapter 'The Council of Elrond' about how those in the West would not receive it... that it belonged to Middle Earth and was for those in Middle Earth to handle the situation.

I know but what if they had done what would have happened.

[Artanis]

I don't think the Valar would risk bringing an evil thing like the Ring into the Blessed Realm. Besides, it would be bad for the moral of the people in Middle Earth. It is better for them to deal with their problems themselves, and be enhanced in the process.

[Radagast The Brown]

Aren't we're talking about the theoretical possibility that the Ring somehow gets to the Valar? Because it was obviously not.. practical? Wasn't it his question?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yes it was. :D

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

The ring would have effected the Valar similar to the way it effected Tom Bombadil. In no way at all. Probably less even! The Valar could have probably destroyed the ring, as it says the ring could be destroyed by the undying fire where it was made, by the very hand of its maker, or someone of equal or greater power. Like Aule the greates Smith of them all! So if the Valar had cared for the matter, it could have been over in seconds. Yet as it has been said before Middle-Earth's fate is Middle-Earths fate and the Valar will not intervein. They removed Morgoth and then they were done. I am pretty sure that it is said somehwere that the Valar will return in the final battle, similar to Ragnarok in Norse myth, and all will fall and the world will crumble. Yet I digress! The ring would not go to Valinor and the Valar would do nothing about it, and thats the answer.
I do wonder though... if the ring did come to Valinor in some way, not in an attempt for the help of the Valar, but just brought there somehow. I wonder if one of the noble elven divisions, like the Vanyar, had allowed one ofthem to attain the ring. Would one of the elves of Valinor become corrupted!? They are just elves after all.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

They probably would have been corrupted.

[Attalus]

Why? The Ring's temptation was for power and dominion. They already have that, so what's the allure of a (very) little more?

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

The elves of Valinor had no dommination! The valar had plenty of "power" but the elves, while elves of valinor, are still elves. and even elves are subject to the one ring. If one had taken the ring they would have owned all of ME...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Even Gandalf who was a Maia was tempted by it so why shouldn't the elves be.

[Earniel]

The elves of Valinor had no dommination! The valar had plenty of "power" but the elves, while elves of valinor, are still elves. and even elves are subject to the one ring. If one had taken the ring they would have owned all of ME...
On the other hand I don't think you can really compare the Elves of Middle-earth to those of Valinor on account of want for power and dominion. The Elves in Middle-earth are those (or descended of those) that did not wish to remain in Valinor or never reached it in the first place. The Elves still remaining in Valinor live in a completely different environment, Valinor has no evil and no sorrow, unlike Middle-earth.

It's saying something that neither the Teleri or the Vanyar joined the Noldor in their return to Middle-earth. The Vanyar were content to be in the light and presence of the Valar and the Teleri wanted nothing more than to wander the Undying Shores and sail the Sea. What temptation could the ring offer them what they did not have already? The Elves of Middle-earth used their three rings to preserve their realm, the Elves of Valinor would not have needed to do such things since their realm is unchanging.

[Attalus]

The elves of Valinor had no dommination! The valar had plenty of "power" but the elves, while elves of valinor, are still elves. and even elves are subject to the one ring. If one had taken the ring they would have owned all of ME...All Elves are not subject to the One Ring, only those three Bearers of the Elven-Rings, and then only while wearing them. See "The Hunt For the Ring" and "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age," the best sources for Ringlore outside the Canon.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think other elves would have been tempted by it aswell.

[Attalus]

Any of the Eruhini, and the Maiar as well, would be tempted by the Ring. Whether or not they resisted the temptation is another question.

[Pytt]

as it says the ring could be destroyed by the undying fire where it was made, by the very hand of its maker, or someone of equal or greater power

then gandalv should be able to break it, for isn't he the greatest of the maiar, or at least one of them? maybe he could not do it while in middelearth, but would he be able to do it in the Blessed Realm? but i think even the elves in Valinor would be attracted and corrupted of it, though they are much different from the elves in middelearth, they are no more than elves, and they don't have powers like sauron.

[Radagast The Brown]

then gandalv should be able to break it, for isn't he the greatest of the maiar, or at least one of them? maybe he could not do it while in middelearth, but would he be able to do it in the Blessed Realm? but i think even the elves in Valinor would be attracted and corrupted of it, though they are much different from the elves in middelearth, they are no more than elves, and they don't have powers like sauron.Gandalf is definitely noit the greatest of Maiar. He's the wisest though.. I don't think he could destroy it, or any of the Maiar, and besides he wasn't in 'full powers', as he was only an Istari. He could die, for example, while Maiar can't, I believe.

I actually agree with Earniel, I don't think the Elves would want the Ring. They didn't need it, nor they needed power. They had everything they wanted in Valinor.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

They may not have wanted it but would they have taken it if they were offered it?

[Radagast The Brown]

They may not have wanted it but would they have taken it if they were offere it.How do you know? :confused:

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

It was question :D

[Radagast The Brown]

It was question :DHeh, I read it as 'but they would have taken it...' You should really consider to start writing question marks in end of questions. :p

Eh, I don't think they would.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Why not? If they saw something they could have with it why not take it. For those who had never left Valinor maybe they could have their own elven kingdom in ME.

[Radagast The Brown]

Why not? If they saw something they could have with it why not take it. For those who had never left Valinor maybe they could have their own elven kingdom in ME.But they didn't want it - and they still had their own will. I also think they might've felt something evil in the Ring. Anyway, in theory, they wouldn't have the chnace saying 'no', or 'yes' to the Ring, The Valar would not allow them to take it, they'd warn them.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Why was Gandalf tempted then. He was a Maia who were more powerful than the elves.

[Radagast The Brown]

Why was Gandalf tempted then. He was a Maia who were more powerful than the elves.(question marks, if you don't mind. :) It helps me understand sentences.. Sorry...)

Well, Gandalf did feel the Ring was dangerous, didn't he? (He might've not, can't remmber)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Well why didn't the elves of Valinor regard it as dangerous?

[Attalus]

Well why didn't the elves of Valinor regard it as dangerous?
If they knew about it, which I beg to doubt, they would have regarded it as incredibly dangerous. As for wanting kingdoms in Middle-earth, they had already been tempted by that, and only those who fell left with Fëanor; with him or against him, like Galadriel.

[Earniel]

Hypothetically speaking, if the Vanyar or the Teleri ever received the Ring, I wonder what it would try to tempt them with. In my mind I can see the Ring going over a checklist with possible temptations.
The One Ring to a Valinor Elf: I can get you your own kingdom, you know... What? You're not interested? Why not? ....Because you don't want it, what's that for a stupid answer? Okay, scratch the kingdom.*checks off point on checklist* .... Would you like to preserve your realm for all of eternity? I can do that too.... What do you say, the Valar are already doing that for you? *dark mutterings while the Ring checks off another point of his list* ....How about some great victories, battles won, prowness with weapons, everybody looking up to you and bowing down in the dust? ... No battles or weapons in Valinor, you say. Not even the tiniest nail cutter? No? Sigh. *throws away checklist* ... Look here Elf, is there anything you want? Anything at all? I can do every thing, you know, get you everything you want. So what's your greatest desire? .... A crumpet and a pretty song?! Is that all you want?! That's it, I give up, even evil Rings like me have their breaking point.... :D

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

then gandalv should be able to break it, for isn't he the greatest of the maiar, or at least one of them? maybe he could not do it while in middelearth, but would he be able to do it in the Blessed Realm? but i think even the elves in Valinor would be attracted and corrupted of it, though they are much different from the elves in middelearth, they are no more than elves, and they don't have powers like sauron.


When saying equal or greater power it is not refering to... "Power" it is refering to Saurons smithing power and knowledge, aule's ultimate smithing skill. Perhaps one of the Noldor, feanor perhaps, could have unmade the rings. I think that Saruman in many hundred years could have learned enough to unmake the ring. It is not simply equal or greater in pure Power.

[Attalus]

I agree. Part of the Ring's power is self-preservation. One is not suppose to consider harm to the lovely (and valuable) thing. Sauron would be a fool not to put such a spell on the Ring, what with all the power he bound up in it.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

When saying equal or greater power it is not refering to... "Power" it is refering to Saurons smithing power and knowledge, aule's ultimate smithing skill. Perhaps one of the Noldor, feanor perhaps, could have unmade the rings. I think that Saruman in many hundred years could have learned enough to unmake the ring. It is not simply equal or greater in pure Power.

I don' think that Feanor or Saruman would have been able to unmake the Ring however many years they studied it or tried but I do think Aule could. If someone can make the dwarves then surely they can unmske the Ring.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

But Sauron was in the beggining justa humble Maia of aule, the same as Saruman! Under Morgoths instruction Sauron become what he was. Saruman I think could have gained the same power... he was of the same order, in a sense. Fëanor would be a little more difficult to argue, but still not that hard. For Fëanor created the Silmarils, three jewels beyond the desire or craftsmanship of the one ring. They were not made for the same purpose but they have a similarity and so I think even Fëanor could have potentialy destroyed the one ring.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Sauron could not unmake the Ring unless he dropped in into Orodruin.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Sauron could not unmake it without that action only because he would have been too weak without the ring. Though I don't see Sauron destroying it. If you mean Saruman then I think you may be wrong, in my oppinion at least. I think that a Maia of similar order to the creater of the one ring could in time destory the ring, possibly witha greater ring of his own!?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Well Saruman couldn't make a powerful Ring of his own so I think that unmakinng would be a task to great for him.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

At that time. Sauron had what, nearly 3 ages to learn to make a great ring! Saruman had 300 years!? Its a matter of understanding, and Saruman was a craftsman, a maia of aule as was saruman, a craftsman of aule. Perhaps Sauron was in his youth equaly as powerful as Curiniur? Sauron just decided to follow Morgoth and learned the evilness of his power and gained many skills. Saruman only started when the ring was discovered still alive, around the time of the Hobbit! So really he only had a matter of like 100 years. Give him 3 ages and Curinir could be... Curinir, Lord of the Earings!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But Sauron learnt from Morgoth. He, along with Manwe was the most powerful Vala.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

But Morgoth was not as powerful as all the other Valar. Each of the others held a power he was partial to, Aule to his smithing, so in smithing aule would rock Morgoth. Also it is mentioned that Aule was most like to Morgoth so he must have been pretty damn tough. anyhow, perhaps Curinur learns under sauron, lies, returns to valinor, learns under aule, returns and kills sauron! and becomes Curinur, Lord of the Anklets!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

At the beginning of the Sil it says that Melkor was the most powerful of the Valar.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Yes, because he had all the powers of the others. But not more than any single of the others. lets say it was a game, who could blow the most Air, Morgoth V Manwe, manwe wins because he is designated the "wind" vala. Next we have Morgoth v. Varda Morgoth wins because he has powers similar to manwe which is at least 99% more than Varda would have. So, in smithing, Aule would be the greater. Not to mention it also says he is no longer counted amount the valar :evil: :D

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But look what Sauron becam under his power. Could anyone else, even Manwe make someone else that powerful?

[Haradrim]

Of course they can they casn do anything. They are godly beings. But just because they can do something doesnt mean they should. (cliche) If they had given a ring so insanely powerful to Gandalf he would have just taken over ME because absolute power corrupts absolutely.