Free will vs. destiny

[Shelob's Hubby]

When Tolkien wrote LOTR do you guys think that he was leaning more toward free will as the determining factor of the plot of the story or do you think that he tried to write it more as that the characters were fated to do what they did?
In my opinion he tried to do both, but I would like to hear other people's opinions.

[Beren3000]

I agree with you. I think it was a bit of both. Although the characters' will affects their lives and their choices seem to decide the course of action, there are a million hints that all of their actions are a part of a greater design, the design of the "powers that are at work". I think this is one of the important themes in LOTR.

P.S. Welcome to the Moot, Shelob's Hubby :)

[brownjenkins]

i think it's largely 'fate'... but being a plan only understood in part by anyone except eru, it might as well be free will

there is little doubt that tolkien intended 'free will' to be a part of the picture... but ran into the age-old problem of reconciling an all-knowing creator with the ability of his creations to act beyond an all-knowing creator

[Olmer]

Although the characters' will affects their lives and their choices seem to decide the course of action, there are a million hints that all of their actions are a part of a greater design, the design of the "powers that are at work".
You are saying that in spite of of any course of action the outcome will be as it planned by the "great design". But it turns everyone into a sensless chess-pieces.How boring! Why to struggle making decisions if the end will by just the same?
I see the "powers at work" as the powers, which allowed you a choice in SPITE of the Great Design.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think it was both, but maybe more fate. I think Tolkien may have intended fate to be changeable, so something should happen but it doesn't have to.

Welcome to the Moot Shelob's Hubby

[Attalus]

I think that Eru was actively nudging things in the Free Peoples' favor, but none of it would have helped if they hadn't siezed their chances. Perhaps Eru or the Ring made Gollum grab the Ring from Frodo in the Sammath Naur, but it wouldn't have helped a bit if Frodo hadn't hauled it over all those weary miles. God helps those who help themselves. Consider Denethor as the contrary example, giving in to despair. :eek:

[brownjenkins]

You are saying that in spite of of any course of action the outcome will be as it planned by the "great design". But it turns everyone into a sensless chess-pieces.How boring! Why to struggle making decisions if the end will by just the same?

something planned is only boring if you know the outcome... or it's really badly planned ;)

[Beren3000]

You are saying that in spite of of any course of action the outcome will be as it planned by the "great design". But it turns everyone into a sensless chess-pieces.How boring! Why to struggle making decisions if the end will by just the same?
I see the "powers at work" as the powers, which allowed you a choice in SPITE of the Great Design.
As b/jenkins said, we're falling into an age-old debate here. How is free will consistent with God's knowing everything beforehand. Well, I see it this way:
We are completely free-willed in every choice we make (otherwise, if people had no say in their lives, how can you label anyone as evil or sinful?), but God (being all-powerful) has the power to foresee the future, foresee our future choices NOT predetermine them. So that's how the choices can fit in with a greater design. These people, Frodo and Co. were "good" people so that the paths they CHOSE to take were conform with Eru's will and that's why they triumphed at the end. Anyway, just MHO.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But do you think that they had the power to do something that was not planned for them by Eru.

[Radagast The Brown]

But do you think that they had the power to do something that was not planned for them by Eru.Is there something that could happen and wasn't polanned by Eru? No, not by this point of view. :) (Am I right Beren?)

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

You are saying that in spite of of any course of action the outcome will be as it planned by the "great design". But it turns everyone into a sensless chess-pieces.How boring! Why to struggle making decisions if the end will by just the same?
I see the "powers at work" as the powers, which allowed you a choice in SPITE of the Great Design.


It wouldn't be so much a senseless chess game it would be more like a film you have already seen. Eru, I think, is the only being who knows the outcome of all. Its not so pointless and boring, or is the film Lord of the Rings boring the second time you watch it!? See. Yet thats only one idea. Perhaps Eru only knows specific moments for absolute certainty, i.e. the beggining and the end. Everything else while it is seen in a vision of the Valar is not defined. It is possible that the vision can be altered and so fate can be changed because "fate" has not happened yet, save in an untangible dream. It says repetedly that of all the Vala Mandos knows more of the fate of arda than any other within it. So, I feel, Proffesor Tolkien was attempting at a world and a religion striving to be alike to the Norse mythology. However being a man bound by the faith of Catholicism he reverted in many ways to Christinity and Catholicism. More of the free will and multiple god aspect being derived from Norse, and more of the fate and all powerfull Eru comming from Christianity.

[Shelob's Hubby]

I think that Eru lays out his plans for the world and then uses his helpers to nudge events to match his plans. For example: he sent Gandalf (indirectly) to help with the problem in Middle Earth. Gandalf then got Frodo to take the one ring and bring it to Rivendell. The council then debated and decided (or got Frodo to decide) that Frodo should go and destroy the ring. Even though Frodo had a choice about whether to carry our his mission or not. Eru indirectly influenced events that would help Frodo to reach the decicion that Eru wanted.

If any of you understand what I'm saying and could describe it better, please do. I'm not the best with words.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

One problem with that theory, Eru didn't send Gandalf, Manwe at the suggestion of Varda did. He was sent as one of the five Istari to battle the force of the one ring.

[Forkbeard]

When Tolkien wrote LOTR do you guys think that he was leaning more toward free will as the determining factor of the plot of the story or do you think that he tried to write it more as that the characters were fated to do what they did?
In my opinion he tried to do both, but I would like to hear other people's opinions.

I see that this garnered a number of posts, but I think it isn't an accurate question. I don't think there is any "fate" in LoTR at all. That is, usually when we talk about fate we mean that something is predetermined. In my view the only thing that was predetermined by Eru (and by predetermined, I think that Eru gave thought to this problem and made sure his thought was accomplished, not that this was part of the original music of creation) was that Sauron would not again rule Middle Earth and so that the Ring would be destroyed. I don't see Tolkien as advocating that then Eru determined the course of events or actors. That Eru was at work ensuring his goal was accomplished is true, but that isn't what we mean by fate or even predetermination. Thus, I would say that Eru is acting directly in the events of the War of the Ring, but the only thing "predetermined" is that Sauron loses.

Don't know if that's clear or makes sense,

Forkbeard

[Artanis]

It makes a lot of sense to me at least. You express very well my own view of this subject Forkbeard. :)

[Elanor the Fair]

I agree with you, Forkbeard, although I do not think that the destroying of the Ring was a foregone conclusion. Why else would Gandalf worry about the choices and decisions being made. He would just sit back and let "fate" run its course.

[Beren3000]

Is there something that could happen and wasn't planned by Eru? No, not by this point of view. (Am I right Beren?)
Yep, you've captured some of my point of view. However, I just want to add that PLANNED by Eru doesn't mean that He forces the choices on people. It's the good people's choices that conform with his plan and fulfill it.

[Artanis]

I agree with you, Forkbeard, although I do not think that the destroying of the Ring was a foregone conclusion. Why else would Gandalf worry about the choices and decisions being made. He would just sit back and let "fate" run its course.Gandalf could not know that the destruction of the Ring was predetermined. He may have hoped so, but he could not be sure. Eru did not reveal his plans to anyone.

[Elanor the Fair]

No, but he would know that something would be predetermined - so why bother worrying if there was no chance of having some control over your own destiny?

[Artanis]

No, but he would know that something would be predetermined - so why bother worrying if there was no chance of having some control over your own destiny?I'm afraid I don't follow your logic. :confused: The only thing Gandalf would be sure of imo, was that the world would end eventually. Nothing more.

[Elanor the Fair]

Gandalf could not know that the destruction of the Ring was predetermined. He may have hoped so, but he could not be sure. Eru did not reveal his plans to anyone.

What you seem to be saying here is that Gandalf knows that something is predetermined, although he doesn't know what. (At least, I think this is what you were saying :) ). If this is the case, then it wouldn't matter how he or others acted as the outcome would be the same regardless.

What I am trying to say is that Gandalf knew there were possibilities not conclusions, and if people could be helped to make the right choices then, and only then, would the "predetermined" event occur - whatever that might be!! :)

[Shelob's Hubby]

One problem with that theory, Eru didn't send Gandalf, Manwe at the suggestion of Varda did. He was sent as one of the five Istari to battle the force of the one ring.

I understand that, but he is still under Eru's banner. So to speak. That's why I said he was sent indirectly.

[Attalus]

No, but he would know that something would be predetermined - so why bother worrying if there was no chance of having some control over your own destiny?I don't think Gandalf thought of anything as predetermined, just that the Will of Eru was involved, at least that is how I interpret the "you were meant to have it" speech. Good post, Forkbeard.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I agree with you, Forkbeard, although I do not think that the destroying of the Ring was a foregone conclusion. Why else would Gandalf worry about the choices and decisions being made. He would just sit back and let "fate" run its course.
I agee. If he thought that Sauron's fall was predetermined why send the letter to Frodo urging him to leave the Shire ASAP.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Elrond had, as many elves did, the ability of foresight! Therefore it must be understood that if the children of Iluvitar had the ability to see the future, then surely most of the Maia could and without question the Valar could! Now seeing the future as a vision is something different than the actuality of a free will world. When Elrond views the hopelessness of Arwen staying in Middle-Earth he is seeing the most likely future, the future as seen if one choice is made by Aragorn. There are many choices that can alter what is to be. Take for example the phrase "you were destined to do" as in Aragorn was destined to become the King of Gondor and Arnor! Now, this may have been the destiny of Aragorn and Middle-Erth but it was the choices of Aragorn, and many others as well, that inevitably lead to the predetermind action in time! The choices could have gone as such to make Aragorn king of Gondor, Arnor, and all of Middle-Earth if he had taken the one ring! It is all about free-will and Destiny. Which as I said before is the best Tolkien could do being bound by his own beliefs. I believe I just read something that agrees with my last statement in the begging of Silmarillion, writen by Tolkien himself.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think the elves knew that Sauron would fall but they didn't know when or how, which is why they were doing as much as possible to make that then.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

What I don't understand is that they didn't do all they could to help or stop Sauron. They were leaving when they should have been fighting! What did the elves have to loose!? They were immortal, if they were killed in battle, they go to Valinor! To the halls of Mandos yes, but still to valinor... where they could still one day be removed from the Halls of mandos as well! Why not use all you got to destroy this common enemy, then the survivers flee to Valinor!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

They knew that they were going to leave and that men would inherit Middle-earth, so the men obviously needed to pove their woth. If the men had been defeated then I'm sure that the elves would fight but if the men were going to inherit it the needed to be the ones that saved it.

[Haradrim]

I agree with T.D. if the elves interfered it would have been like if a teen was on his quest for adulthood in an ancient tribe of sorts and the parent intervened it would throw off the entire quest and make the teen forever a boy. SO the elves could not interfere unless it was absolutely necessary. Also men are cooler..... Nah! hehehe JK! :)

[The Gaffer]

I don't agree that the Elves did nothing. Remember Gandalf's words to Boromir in the Council of Elrond, about how Sauron was resisted by other means than the strength of men. Essentially, he is saying that the Three Rings were still active in keeping back the tide.

The other thing to bear in mind is that the Elves had been hanging around for ?5,000 years since they were pardoned for Feanor's rebellion and allowed to return to Valinor. It would seem to make sense that in that time there would be a steady trickle of elves packing up and heading back home, not to mention a fair few Sindar hearing those seagulls...

Also, we don't know how many Elves there actually were. Many were killed in the Dagorlad at the end of the 2nd Age. The only one we know of who came back to ME after dying was Glorfindel. So, their numbers would be vastly depleted.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I didn't say the elves did nothing, i said that they knew that the men had to fight this war as they would be ruling the bigger part of ME. If they had been defeated then the elves would have also attacked Sauron's forces.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

I would like to actually disagree with myself a little. I said the elves did not help the men of ME and this is somehat true. However the elves did fight Sauron's forces and held them off. It is stated, im not sure where, that Galadriel and the forces of Lorien fought off the forces of mordor thrice before the end. So although elves did not help directly, they did fight.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Thought someone would make that point! The elves of Lorien and Mirkwood defended their own lands, they didn't attack Sauron's forces. Men did. Erkenbrand's men at Helms Deep. The Rohirrim at the Pelennor. The Rohirrim and Gondorians at the Black Gate. The elves may have slightly aided, but it was men would led the assault

[Forkbeard]

Thought someone would make that point! The elves of Lorien and Mirkwood defended their own lands, they didn't attack Sauron's forces. Men did. Erkenbrand's men at Helms Deep. The Rohirrim at the Pelennor. The Rohirrim and Gondorians at the Black Gate. The elves may have slightly aided, but it was men would led the assault

To some degree, yes. But it is Celeborn and Thranduil who for example meet in Mirkwood and cleanse Dol Guldur.

And I would also say that given Sauron's plan, the Elves staying and protecting their own lands was exactly right: Sauron divided his forces and fought on too many fronts instead of the crushing blow on Gondor first, then pick off the others piece by piece.

FB

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I'm notsure but I think the forces of Dol Guldur had been slain in their assaults and when Celeborn and Thranduil met in Mirkwood, no fighting was needed.

[Earniel]

The posts concerning the discussion whether the Elves were allies to Gondor are moved to a new thread: Were the Elves allies to Gondor? (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=11469)

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

the creation of the dwarves was not destined by eru, yet he took aule's
creations and gave them a place within arda, so what i am trying to say
here (in a round-a-bout way) is that free will is the course of things, but
that does not mean that eru will not have a destined place for them in
the long run. if you understand me, which i don't!! :D

[Wayfarer]

*eyeshift*

[Wayfarer]

...free will is the course of things...


So, in effect, what you're saying is...

"You must have free will! It is your destiny!" :D

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Am I seeing double or did that post appear twice! ;)

[Olmer]

the creation of the dwarves was not destined by eru, yet he took aule's
creations and gave them a place within arda, ... :D
If you are implying that Eru himself gave them "a destined place ", than he, like a wicked step-dad, trew poor short b***ds further away from his sight, leaving them to die from starvation, because stony, barren, unsuitable for unsupported life underground is not exactly the place where you put your children, or somebody else children.
Remember, that they didn't acquired their knowledge of craftsmanship overnight.

In the post "favorite race and why"I asked the question what did the dwarves do at the beginning and how come they ended up underground. I think the same question could be asked over here. :)

[Attalus]

I have always been of the view that the Dwarves dwelt underground because they are miners and craftsmen and like to be close to their source of materials.

[Olmer]

I have always been of the view that the Dwarves dwelt underground because they are miners and craftsmen and like to be close to their source of materials.
This is not the reason why they ended living underground ,it's a concequence.
Elves are great craftsmen also, but they did not became the miners.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But the dwarves were created by Aule, and most elves loved trees and the sea.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

If you are implying that Eru himself gave them "a destined place ", than he, like a wicked step-dad, trew poor short b***ds further away from his sight, leaving them to die from starvation, because stony, barren, unsuitable for unsupported life underground is not exactly the place where you put your children, or somebody else children.
Remember, that they didn't acquired their knowledge of craftsmanship overnight.

In the post "favorite race and why"I asked the question what did the dwarves do at the beginning and how come they ended up underground. I think the same question could be asked over here. :)

Aule created them in a hall under the mountains in middle earth
it clearly states that in The Silmarillion 'Of Aule and Yavanna',
Aule destined the dwarves to become great miners, and craftsmen
of the mountain halls, he even set the seven fathers to sleep in
great mansions under mountains, if that isn't saying
"Look, I want you to be great miners, and builders
of the mountain halls" then I don't know what is...

but that is just an interpretation :D

So, in effect, what you're saying is...

"You must have free will! It is your destiny!"

of course :D :D
'you are destined to do what you want - destiny and free will are both illusions'

[inked]

Dwarves inhabit earth as men the land and birds the air.
It is their nature and they choose to live there.
As fish to water fresh, salt, or briny
Dwarves dwell midst rocks and dirt
And gold/silver/jewels shiny! :eek: