LOTR Questions

[Fewin Greenleaf]

I don't know if some of these topics have already been discussed in the other threads. But i want to start a thread that would discuss about any question in relation to the LOTR books. I have gathered a few ones here:

1. Were there other Rangers mentioned in the books?
2. Was Arwen married to Aragorn? Did they have a son?
3. What kind of being was Sauron?
4. After the journey, did Legolas and Gimli travel back to Moria and Forest Fangorn?
5. Did all the elves sail to the Undying Lands?
6. What is meant by this: "The time of the elves is over."? It sounded as if the elves had no choice but to leave Middle Earth.
7. What would happen if the elves never left Middle Earth?
8. Why did Frodo leave for the Grey Havens?
9. Have the entmaidens been found?
10. Which of the following creatures is the biggest/tallest in Middle Earth: troll, ent, or oliphaunt?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

1. Were there other Rangers mentioned in the books?

Besides who. There was Aragorn and Halbarad and those of the Grey Company.

2. Was Arwen married to Aragorn? Did they have a son?

They had a son called Eldarion and many daughters.

3. What kind of being was Sauron?

He was a Maia like Gandalf.

4. After the journey, did Legolas and Gimli travel back to Moria and Forest Fangorn?

They travel to Fangorn and the Glittering Caves just as they agreed.

5. Did all the elves sail to the Undying Lands?

No. Elladan and Elrohir stayed in Rivendell with other elves and Celeborn stayed for a while.

8. Why did Frodo leave for the Grey Havens?

He felt drained and tired of ME as if it had been saved but not for him.

9. Have the enmaidens been found?

They are in the Shire. Sam mentions them in FotR in the Green Dragon, saying his cousin Halfast saw a tree walking.

[Fewin Greenleaf]

Besides who. There was Aragorn and Halbarad and those of the Grey Company.

I meant, besides Aragorn. These Rangers were descendants of kings, right? What was the reason why they have instead chosen exile?

[Fewin Greenleaf]

They had a son called Eldarion and many daughters.

So Arwen really became a mortal? Did she die?

[Fewin Greenleaf]

No. Elladan and Elrohir stayed in Rivendell with other elves and Celeborn stayed for a while.

The movie gave me the perception that only the elves in Rivendell and Lothlorien sailed to the Undying Lands. What about their kins who lived in other parts of Middle Earth, like those in Mirkwook, did they sail there too?

[Valandil]

I don't know if some of these topics have already been discussed in the other threads. But i want to start a thread that would discuss about any question in relation to the LOTR books. I have gathered a few ones here:

1. Were there other Rangers mentioned in the books?
2. Was Arwen married to Aragorn? Did they have a son?
3. What kind of being was Sauron?
4. After the journey, did Legolas and Gimli travel back to Moria and Forest Fangorn?
5. Did all the elves sail to the Undying Lands?
6. What is meant by this: "The time of the elves is over."? It sounded as if the elves had no choice but to leave Middle Earth.
7. What would happen if the elves never left Middle Earth?
8. Why did Frodo leave for the Grey Havens?
9. Have the entmaidens been found?
10. Which of the following creatures is the biggest/tallest in Middle Earth: troll, ent, or oliphaunt?

Fewin - if we gave you all the answers to all those questions, you wouldn't understand the answers and they would make you want to ask more questions. In other words... the answers to them are not really simple.

Your best bet is to do a little more reading. Since you have LOTR, your best bet is to read the appendices. Most people read the books and see all that extra stuff and can't imagine WHY they should read it... but it's just PACKED with all kinds of extra information. At least four or five of your questions are answered there... and there's lots of other great information you'll like too.

Appendix A glosses over ancient history (see next paragraph), but then gives more detailed histories of Arnor and Gondor in the Third Age, about Aragorn and Arwen, about Rohan and about Dwarves. Appendix B gives timelines from the Second and Third Ages - but also gives key events of the Fourth Age - so you can see what happens to some of the characters and when. Beyond that, it's a matter of interest - C has Hobbit family trees, D is about Calendars, etc.

If you want to get into the more ancient histories - which focus mostly on the Elves - you'll definitely want to read 'The Silmarillion'. It's a collection of stories which JRRT was working on for most of his adult life. Great stuff! And - it will answer more of your questions.

For at least one of your questions, #10 - I don't think you'll find an answer in Tolkien's work... he leaves some things to the imagination. :)

[Valandil]

They are in the Shire. Sam mentions them in FotR in the Green Dragon, saying his cousin Halfast saw a tree walking.

Not necessarily conclusive. From just reading the story itself, you'd think so - but when Tolkien first wrote this, he hadn't fully conceived of the Ents - and I think he decided to keep it in for any of a number of reasons. However, he tells us in other places that the Entwives probably are no more... and that the place they moved to was burned by Sauron late in the Second Age to slow the advancing armies of the Last Alliance... the place was called 'The Brown Lands' at the time of LOTR.

EDIT: So maybe what Halfast saw WAS an elm tree! ;)

[Nurvingiel]

Not necessarily conclusive. From just reading the story itself, you'd think so - but when Tolkien first wrote this, he hadn't fully conceived of the Ents - and I think he decided to keep it in for any of a number of reasons. However, he tells us in other places that the Entwives probably are no more... and that the place they moved to was burned by Sauron late in the Second Age to slow the advancing armies of the Last Alliance... the place was called 'The Brown Lands' at the time of LOTR.
I agree with Val about Entwives, and his fine suggestion on the readings. I also recommend the Silmarillion, when you have a lot of time and patience. (It's an absolutely wonderful book, but it's difficult to read at times. It is extremely interesting though, so go for it!)

about your last question:
10. Which of the following creatures is the biggest/tallest in Middle Earth: troll, ent, or oliphaunt?

I'd say Oliphaunt, Ent, Troll. Ents I think would be larger than Trolls because Trolls were a mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves (though their actual making is debated - we won't go there.)

Do you agree guys (as in all thread participants)? Am I getting my Ent-Troll lore straight there?

More about Trolls, I believe Sauron corrupted the evil yet stupid mountain Trolls and gave them intelligence, and maybe a desire to be less reclusive.

As a side note, the only time I can recall giants being mentioned in the Hobbit (unless the same thing happens in LOTR) is at Caradrhas, when a storm, and giants hurling rocks, forced them to take shelter on the goblin's doorstep. Are giants residence of the Misty Mountains different to Trolls, or was he refering to Trolls here?

[Valandil]

As a side note, the only time I can recall giants being mentioned in the Hobbit (unless the same thing happens in LOTR) is at Caradrhas, when a storm, and giants hurling rocks, forced them to take shelter on the goblin's doorstep. Are giants residence of the Misty Mountains different to Trolls, or was he refering to Trolls here?

Funny you should ask... we've just been having a discussion about giants in a thread about fortresses over in the ME forum:

Giant Discussion (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=388246#post388246)

As for the size order of those various beasts - it's just a matter of speculation on our parts. I MIGHT think of the Ents (at least the taller ones - they varied greatly according to tree species) as taller than Oliphaunts though - but of course the O's would vastly outweigh them. You're right about Trolls being a corruption or mockery of Ents.

[Attalus]

5. Did all the elves sail to the Undying Lands?
I also agree with Valandil's recommendations, though I would read Unfinished Tales before the Sil. To answer this question, many of the Elves stayed in Middle-Earth, and never went to the Undying Lands. They dwindled, as Galadriel feared, to become no more than spirits, haunters of streams and dells where they once lived. Morgoth's Ring, HoME X, gives reasons why they might be dangerous to mortals, in the invaluable essay "Laws and Customs Among the Eldar."
Hmm, find that I have to agree with Val that more reading is necessary, to understand the explanation.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

EDIT: So maybe what Halfast saw WAS an elm tree! ;)

But Sam also said that there were no elms where Halfast saw the walking elm. Also Tolkien did alot of editing so it is possible he put that in after Merry and Pippin heard Treebeards song.

[Attalus]

In the Letters, he says that the Entwives are all dead. I can get a citation for you, if you like. Also, Hal said he saw a tree-man.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But if it was the first time he had seen one then he wouldn't have known the difference. I would be interested to see the citation.

[The Gaffer]

The movie gave me the perception that only the elves in Rivendell and Lothlorien sailed to the Undying Lands. What about their kins who lived in other parts of Middle Earth, like those in Mirkwook, did they sail there too?
If I understand it right, elves of the Avari, who were unwilling to travel to the Undying Lands when first summoned by the Valar in the First Age, stayed in Middle Earth and eventually faded, their bodies being consumed by their spirit. There's also the Sindar, those who started out on the journey to the West but didn't make it, some of whom lived amongst the Mirkwood elves and in Lorien, who could sail west if they wanted to. Hence Legolas' "peril" should he awaken the "sea-longing".

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

If you read Appendix A then you will see it says that Ellandan, Elrohir and Celeborn among other high elves stayed in Rivendell.

[Radagast The Brown]

If you read Appendix A then you will see it says that Ellandan, Elrohir and Celeborn among other high elves stayed in Rivendell.They didn't stay there forever, necessarily. We don't really know what happened to them.. they might've sailed to Valinor (Which I believe they did), and they might've stayed in ME.

[Haradrim]

Just a side note isnt it entwives??? :)
However I was rpettey sure that they were all killed and who said their couldnt be Ents in the shire I mean Old Man Willow was around there or at least realtively close for an Ent so maybe they had a couple Ents down their as well.

Oh and here is a question: Oliphant vs. Troll vs. Ent who wins. I go with Oliphant because it runs over the other two.

[Radagast The Brown]

Oh and here is a question: Oliphant vs. Troll vs. Ent who wins. I go with Oliphant because it runs over the other two.Troll isn't obviously, Treebeard says Ents are stronger.

I think an Ent will win... As an Oliphant is an animal, not sure if it's a ctually evil, or just used for evil purposes bu the Haradrim. Plus, I don't think they're bigger than Ents if the Ents are as big as large trees. So then they'll probably be weaker too.

[Haradrim]

Hey Hey Hey! Whats with the evil side note that was unnecessary... :) just kidding. And yes troll probably wouldnt win. But even if an ent was as tall as an oliphant its not as fast cuz Oliphants were fast. An Oliphant is huge and gigantic. And if we were to say give the Oliphant a driver then I think its no question that the Oliphant wins. :) what do others think? :) :)

[Attalus]

But if it was the first time he had seen one then he wouldn't have known the difference. I would be interested to see the citation.
Okay, here it is: from famous #144 I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429-3441) when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their lands against the advance of the allies down the Anduin. (vol. II, p. 79 refers to it.) They survived only in the 'agriculture' transmitted to Men (and Hobbits). You should read the whole Letter.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Thanks Attalus

[Attalus]

You are quite welcome. :)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I haven't got any of the letters yet but it is my birthday in a couple of months so I'll be getting alot of Tolkien.

[Fewin Greenleaf]

i really wanted to finish the books but right now i'm still stuck with the two towers. it's not that i i'm not interested in the books or something. it's just that i really can't find the time to read them. i'm in post-graduate school and my course really entails a lot of "book reading."
thanks for the suggestion, anyway.

[Haradrim]

Eru I have been trying to read the Sil for ages. I always get into it. Take a break for school reading or summer reading and then totally lose interest in it for like 6 months. Its really annoying. So next time I am just going to sit down and read it straight through. Also isnt HoME Christopher Tolkien. If so where is he getting that insane amount of information?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

He gets it all from JRR's notes. And he assembled them very much like Frodo did Bilbo's.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

1. Were there other Rangers mentioned in the books?
There were the rangers of the north, the Dunedain Rangers. The only one's named within the Lord of the Rings were Telcontar, or Aragorn, and Halbarad. There were at least 50 others who were a prt of the Grey Company. There was also a military division of Gondor known as rangers. Though Ranger is not just their military tittle, they were in fact rangers of the wild. Several of these rangers are mentioned, Faramir was one of these. Furthermore Barliman Butterburn seems to give us the feeling that Strider is a different type of ranger, we can only assume that there were other rangers. Rangers that were just men who traveled the wilds of ME, and not affiliated with the Dunedain or Gondor.

2. Was Arwen married to Aragorn? Did they have a son?
Arwen did Marry Aragorn Elessar. They gave birth to Eldarion who had the name in honor of the last bonding between elves and men. Eldar meaning elves... Eldar-Eldarion.

3. What kind of being was Sauron?
Sauron was a maia similar to Gandalf(Olorin) Though Sauron can be tied closer to Saruman(Curinur) as Sauron was a maia of Aule, and so was Curinur.

4. After the journey, did Legolas and Gimli travel back to Moria and Forest Fangorn?
Legolas and Gimli, the unlikely friends, made the promise to travel in ME together and visit Fangorn forest for Legolas and The Glittering Caves for Gimli.

5. Did all the elves sail to the Undying Lands?
All of the elves inevitably did sail to the undying lands, except for one*. The sons of Elrond, Thranduil, and Celeborn did stay in Imladris after Elrond and Galadriel and the main host of elves left ME, but they did eventually sail away.
*I say one did not because one of the sons of Fëanor was said to have remaind on the coast of ME lementing his pain and loss. Maglor was his name and it is uncertain if he remains by the coasts or not.

6. What is meant by this: "The time of the elves is over."? It sounded as if the elves had no choice but to leave Middle Earth.
Eru intended for the world to be for the elves for a time and then inherited by men. Elves did in a sense had no choice but to sail away. The thing is they wanted to. They were sailing to the land that was made for them, Valinor. Middle-Earth's fate had become the fate of men and not elves. The time of the elves was over... it was the time of men.

7. What would happen if the elves never left Middle Earth?
If the elves never left ME they would probably die of greif and missery. They would return to Valinor by the halls of mandos. It is uncertain how to answer this since it was never presented by Tolkien.

8. Why did Frodo leave for the Grey Havens?
Frodo left for two reasons, which are basically the same reason. Frodo left because 1. he felt withered away, like he no longer fit in the world, so he left for Valinor. The world was saved but it was nto the world he remembered, because he could no longer remember a life that he once had, not after the experience with the ring. 2. he was a ring bearer. He bore a ring of power, the one ring none the less, therefore he was granted permission to enter valinor. You will find that Samwise Gamgee is also given the permission to travel to Valinor. He bore the ring, for a very short time but long enough.

9. Have the entmaidens been found?
The entwives have not been found. Tolkine did not write the official and concreate idea for their end. We assume they were destroyed due to the fact they can not be found at all! As for the "moving" trees near the Shire, those are not the Entwives. Those are trees, trees that could talk and move. Trees like Old Man Willow.

10. Which of the following creatures is the biggest/tallest in Middle Earth: troll, ent, or oliphaunt?
Well thats har to answer, though we can filter some things out. Trolls are a mokery of ents and are commented as being less than ents. So Ents must be larger than Trolls. Now Oliphaunts were extreamly large but there are tree's that are taller than them, so I feel that the tallest of the ents is taller than the tallest of the Oliphaunts. Thats just IMHO though.

those are the only answers I have to give on the Origional Post.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I to have a question.

Why was the ship the Elrond and Galadriel left on called the last ship of the elves when elves like Celeborn and Thranduil left ME after that ship? They must have gone by ship too (unless they swam!)

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Actually, as I have come to understand it, the ship that Elrond and Galadriel took to Valinor along with Frodo and Gandalf, was never called "the last ship" It was called the white ship. It was made long before and was in waiting for that very voyage. White ship, not last.

[Nurvingiel]

Yeah. Wasn't it mentioned that Legolas and Gimli were the last? However, Some elves stayed even longer then them, didn't they? So they weren't technically the very last people.

[Ñólendil]

1. Were there other Rangers?

The only rangers mentioned in The Lord of the Rings are the Northern Rangers of Eriador, and the Rangers of Ithilien.

2. Was Arwen married to Aragorn? Did they have a son?

Arwen married Aragorn in Book VI: End of the Third Age, after Sauron was destroyed. They had a son named Eldarion (as is revealed in The Appendices), and they had an unknown number of daughters.

3. What kind of being was Sauron?

Sauron was a Maia, as is told in The Silmarillion. Maiar are Tolkien's angels, but Sauron was an Umaia, a fallen demonic spirit, once in the service of the ultimate evil entiity: Morgoth (the character who along with Sauron shares the Satanic role). Gandalf is an example of an unfallen Maia, who served Manwë and Varda. Manwe is the "Elder King" referred to once or twice in the Lord of the Rings, he is the King of the Valar (rather like angelic gods, or godlike angels) who rule over the Maiar, and Varda was his wife. Varda is often referred to in the Lord of the Rings as Elbereth, Queen of the Stars. Other characters in the Lord of the Rings of angelic origin include The Balrog, Radagast, and Saruman.

4. After the journey, did Legolas and Gimli travel back to Moria and Forest Fangorn?

They are unlikely to have traveled back to Mória, although the dark place was reinhabited by Dwarves in the Fourth Age, during the first couple centuries (my memory may be failing me, but I think it was in the year 110 or 120.) Durin VII (Durin the Deathless Returned, son of Thorin III) ruled there. I don't remember if they visited Forest Fangorn or the Tree Garth of Orthanc, but I imagine that they did. Anyway, in the Fourth Age Gimli was Lord of Aglarond, and Legolas ruled a group of woodelves in Ithilien.

5. Did all the elves sail to the Undying Lands?

No! Sadly this is a matter of debate, but anyone who does their research will tell you that many Elves remained. Most of the Noldor (High Elves) left (but not all--more on that below), and many of the Sindar (Gray Elves) left as well, but most other kinds of Elves remained. In the far East (and some in Mirkwood had blood of this kind) lived Elves who had never gone on the Great Journey into the West, and so the option was not even open to them to leave Middle-earth, for they decided long ago to remain. As I said, many of the Woodelves had blood of this kind, for the Woodelves were comprised of Sindar, Nandor, and Avari (and the Galadhrim in Lothlorien had Noldor). Of these three strains, the Sindar were not technically Wood-elves though they lived among the Wood-elven people. The Nandor made up most of the population, and these wished to return to their old cultural lifestyle, which did not involve sailing into the West. So many Elves remained, and I am of the opinion that some Noldor did as well. I say this because it says so in The Lord of the Rings. Many Noldor are said to leave, but not all, and in the unfinished epilogue to The Lord of the Rings (which is not, admittedly, canon), Sam Gamgee tells his children that some Noldor remain. The reason why so many people believe that all the Noldor left is because it says so in The Silmarilion (at the very end), which confuses the matter. However, Christopher Tolkien used this passage from a much earlier passage that predates the Lord of the Rings, and so I believe The Lord of the Rings version to be more acceptable, as it was published during Tolkien's lifetime, and Tolkien always felt bound by such works.

I'm not sure, but I think there may also be evidence in The Road Goes Ever On, another Tolkien book published during his lifetime. Anyway, in the Lord of the Rings Appendices, you will find a quote somewhere about Celeborn remaining in the Fourth Age with some of the High Elves, before he himself took ship. I have been long out of practice in my Tolkien studies, but I believe I remember this much. :)

6. What is meant by this: "The time of the elves is over."? It sounded as if the elves had no choice but to leave Middle Earth.

They certainly had a choice. They choice they did not have was whether or not to fade if they remained. The Elves literally, physically, faded, if they lived long enough in Middle-earth. The explanation for this is a mythological one, and can best be understood if The Silmarillion and The History of Middle-earth Volume X: Morgoth's Ring are read. Morgoth, Sauron's old master, corrupted the very matter of Middle-earth, and that had an effect on the bodies of the Elves, whose spirits were so strong that they eventually consumed this corrupted matter, and lived on, invisable, brooding on memory. This is what it means to fade, and this (coupled with the fate of Man, which is to inherit the world) is why the time of the Elves was up. If an Elf did not want to fade, and if he was one of those Elves whose ancestors undertook the Great Journey, then he could go to Tol Eressëa or Valinor, and he would not fade, for those lands are pure and blessed, because the Ainur, the Holy Ones (Valar and Maiar) dwelt there.

7. What would happen if the elves never left Middle Earth?

They would inevitably fade. See number 6.

8. Why did Frodo leave for the Grey Havens?

Frodo had been wounded with a Morgul knife, bitten by a somewhat demonic and certainly poisonous giant spider, and worst of all tormented for too long by the power of the One Ring. Frodo needed healing before he died, and he would only find it in Aman. He did not go to the Gray Havens, he left from the Gray Havens to the Undying Lands (Aman: Valinor and Tol Eressëa).

9. Have the entmaidens been found?

Not that anyone knows of. I think Tolkien said in a letter that they probably were not.

10. Which of the following creatures is the biggest/tallest in Middle Earth: troll, ent, or oliphaunt?

Trolls and Ents were about the same size: usually about 12 feet tall, and sometimes as tall as 18 feet. Oliphaunts were probably considerably larger than our elephants, so I would say the oliphaunts, of these three, are the largest.

[Ñólendil]

5. Did all the elves sail to the Undying Lands?
All of the elves inevitably did sail to the undying lands, except for one*. The sons of Elrond, Thranduil, and Celeborn did stay in Imladris after Elrond and Galadriel and the main host of elves left ME, but they did eventually sail away.
*I say one did not because one of the sons of Fëanor was said to have remaind on the coast of ME lementing his pain and loss. Maglor was his name and it is uncertain if he remains by the coasts or not.

This is not true, Halbarad. As I said above, there were many Elves that remained. There were the all the peoples of the Avari (which consisted of at least six tribes), plus most of the inhabitants of Mirkwood, some of Lothlorien, and some even in Rivendell. Some Noldor remained, some Sindar remained, most of the Wood-elves remained, and all those Elves who never went on the Great Journey remained. During the Fourth Age, it is not known how many of who left, but it is a fact that much more than one never left.

[/quote]Trolls are a mokery of ents and are commented as being less than ents.[/quote]

According to Treebeard they were, but Tolkien never really conclusively decided what they were, although his latest decision was that Trolls were actually made from primitive Men, if you can believe that.

Now Oliphaunts were extreamly large but there are tree's that are taller than them, so I feel that the tallest of the ents is taller than the tallest of the Oliphaunts.

But Ents do not seem to have been able to grow to be as large as the tallest of trees.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I to have a question.

Why was the ship the Elrond and Galadriel left on called the last ship of the elves when elves like Celeborn and Thranduil left ME after that ship? They must have gone by ship too (unless they swam!)It was actually called: "The last riding of the Keepers of the Rings." Not the name of the ship, but the event.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

This is not true, Halbarad. As I said above, there were many Elves that remained. There were the all the peoples of the Avari (which consisted of at least six tribes), plus most of the inhabitants of Mirkwood, some of Lothlorien, and some even in Rivendell. Some Noldor remained, some Sindar remained, most of the Wood-elves remained, and all those Elves who never went on the Great Journey remained. During the Fourth Age, it is not known how many of who left, but it is a fact that much more than one never left.

I did not say that many did not stay, I agree and I know that many elves stayed on through even the forth age probably. Yet aside from the half-elven that had a choice to become mortal or not no elf, man, dwarf, or anything other could change their inevitable fate. Elves will fad/die/whatever and return to Valinor by the Ship road or by the way of the Halls of Mandos. Essentially Tolkien was trying to say that ME is our past, and we no longer see elves because they all left! More elves than the one stayed but how many stayed untill the comming of Melkor again? I feel the answer is one, Maglor, or none.

[Attalus]

Essentially Tolkien was trying to say that ME is our past, and we no longer see elves because they all left! More elves than the one stayed but how many stayed untill the comming of Melkor again? I feel the answer is one, Maglor, or none.Actually, in "Laws and Customs Among the Eldar," JRRT implies that many stayed. They just "faded" until they were invisible to Men, except in unusual circumstances.