In defense of the Ringwraith or "Where is the beef?"(loo-ong posting!)

[Olmer]

While reading “The Hunt for the Ring” in the “Unfinished tales” I decided to trace the route of the search on the map, simultaneously checking with dates of focal points, and have got an unexpected result.

We know that Tolkien’s desire to create a myths of long-lost history of the England, his beloved country, resulted in deliberate intention to write the history of Middle-earth as it presented to him by his divine inspiration. Some “given” events was arriving to him in such vague outline, that he had to revise the scenes several times, trying to “report” the occurrences as close to what really has happened as he could imagine. On this chapter he had 3 versions, nevertheless, while circumstances has been varying, the basic of the story has never change. Therefore, if you will consider it as a source of the Middle-earth history, suddenly, an interesting picture is beginning to shape up .
I am stressing it again: we are looking at the events from historical point of view, judging it not by emotions, but by dates , places and concrete acts of the involved persons.

First and foremost let’s point out the fact that all information about this search came from Gandalf. .
Tolkien implied that the story, describing how Nazguls were looking for the Ring, has been told by Gandalf to Frodo in Minas -Tirith before their trip back to North.
Now let’s follow the Gandalf’s story.

As it said, Sauron was long hesitated in decision to give this job to the Nazguls: “At the length he resolved that no others would serve him in this case but his mightiest servants”. He had a very good reason to be so uncertain. On one hand, very few could stand up to the whole Nine, and besides, as it says, they “had no will but his own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held”, so if they will get the Ring , then without hesitation they will bring it straight to Sauron.
But on another hand, they had very significant shortcoming: they were spreading such terror “to all living things that they passed near” , that the course of theirs movements “might soon be perceived and their mission be guessed by Wise”. Such of their chief weapon, a terror, could be a big advantage on the battle-field, but Sauron wanted their assignment not to be discovered, which was the task not so easy to be accomplished.
Given their ability to spread even greater terror when all Nine were together, Sauron was aware that any ” mission on which they were sent could hardly be conducted with secrecy.” Besides those mighty hideous undead had a tendency to “stray when alone by daylight” , were “unwilling to enter” the water and needed bridges to cross it. (I assume that their fright of the water was based on the awareness that this was a domain of Ulmo, the mighty Vala whose vast body is present in the water of all kind, and who was not particularly fond of any Dark Forces).
The Lord of the Rings faced a dilemma : he did not want to announce about the search of the One , but the time was running out and he was in “great haste”, therefore in spite of theirs “ disadvantages” all the Nine Nazguls were sent on the mission and were commanded to act as secretly, as they could”.

For that reasons the Great Strategist and Commander designed a maneuver: on June 20 of 3018 he assaulted Osgiliath fortification and forced the passage of the bridge of Osgiliath, which was allowed to send the Nazguls “unclad, unmounted and invisible to eyes” across Anduin unnoticed(?) and in the same time to test the strength and preparedness of Gondor.

Both purposes of such strategic movement did not serve the planned intentions. First, according to Gandalf ‘s story, Sauron made an attack on unsuspecting enemy "hoping to alarm his enemies and disturb their counsels with fear of war (which he did not intend to do for some time)" . If an year before your army major move you are making an assault on small forepost of your enemy, which is not expecting an attack, it doesn’t mean “to test his strength” or “to disturb their counsels“, it means to alert him about the coming war and set him off to begin his own preparation to the war.
In this light you could make two implication: Gandalf misinterpreted Sauron’s motives, or Sauron, as a real knight and gentleman, has been forewarning his opponents of his intended strike. :evil:

Secondly, we are talking about secrecy and speed…
Let‘s follow Nazguls route by the map and by the dates given in the book.

The Ringwraiths walked “slowly and in stealth” :confused: through Anorien, the whole northern part of Gondor, passed through Eastfold to Entwade fort , which they , seemingly , somehow crossed on foot, and unhurriedly strolled through the Wold, another part of Rohan, to the west-shores of Anduin near Sarn-Gebir , where they “received horses and raiment that were secretly ferried over the River”, which was happened about the 17 of July.
All this areas are less populated then other parts of Gondor and Rohan, but nevertheless still are populated.
So, instead of fast and stealthy horse ride from Morannon to North and through desolated lands to the South or North Undeep , the places which for countless years has been used by enemies as a convenient and relatively safe dispatch between two shores , where the six Nazguls could be ferried with their horses across Anduin (others 3 from Dol -Guldur somehow survived the ordeal of Anduin’s crossing ), or even better to cross the river by the remnants of big and strong bridge at the Old Ford, which has been used for passage of the armies of the Alliance, and then quietly ride through deserted land searching for the Ring or Gollum, Sauron sent them through the populated areas of Gondor and Rohan, where the whole month they were WALKING, spreading panic and terror of the passing darkness and dread.
If the Wise was not aware of their movement from the beginning, they had plenty of time and opportunities to guess, and by this time they should know for certain of the source of the dark terror.
Some speed and secrecy, I‘d say! :rolleyes:

Farther is getting even better.
On July 22 in the Field of Celebrant they met with colleagues from Dol Guldur, which in spite of their aqua-phobia managed to cross Anduin without any help from the Great Commander, and enlighted them about the intended goal.
Sauron provided them with minimum data to work with . In any case Sauron himself did not get too much information from Gollum, so the Nazguls knew just a couple of starting points: the place which is called “Shire“;and inhabited by “halflings”; one of them, named “Baggins”, has the Ring, and, supposedly, that this Shire-place located somewhere near the Gladden Fields.
Khamul, the Chief Nazgul of Dol- Guldur, right away let their hopes down by saying that is no any halfling’s dwellings around there and if it had been any villages, by now they had long been deserted.
This news did not upset the Lord of Morgul, for he suspected that the Shire is located in ” the hated land of Lorien”, where he was barred from the entrance by the power of the White Ring. So he, assuming that Shire is in the place he can’t enter, and “seeing no better counsel, determined still to seek northward, hoping…to discover the Shire”.(?) :confused:
For that reason, like a gentleman, who lost his keys under the bushes, but searching for them on the road, because over there is brighter and cleaner, he passed Lorien and went on into the North .
It also said that doing so the Lord of Morgul was “hoping maybe to come upon Gollum” or to find out some information regarding the Ring’s exact whereabouts.

[Olmer]

This all is sounding very strange , because the former King of Angmar, was pretty much familiar with layout of Eriador and he even personally visited areas bordering with the Shire. Undoubtedly he knew about Bree and the land of halflings since they were already there and even troops of hobbit’s bowmen were fighting in the king’s army at the battle of Fornost. So, it looks like he did not share this information with his Lord, pretending to be ignorant. :evil:
Therefore all the Nine went together earnestly certain that they will get the job done, “and terror went before them and lingered behind them; but they did not find what they sought not learn any news that availed them”.
Somehow I am not surprised that their optimistic expectations did not materialize! :) If only one brought such fear on the bridge of Osgiliath, "so that horse and man gave way and fled "(FOTR), you can imagine what a fright had been emitting the whole Nine! Under such circumstances to find somebody, who is willingly approaching them and offering some information will be equivalent to go on hunting with company of yelling and laughing people, stomping through the woods and wildly shooting around, and hope to run into a deer. :D
Any way, they futilely wandered in the Vales of Anduin till September .
But, according to the second version, they did not waste their time entirely, because they found some Stoors settlements and killed or “drove away” all remaining there dwellers. Naturally, by “searching for information“ in such manner, they did not find the Ring and Gollum and didn’t get any tips-off about either of them. :D
Subjecting the fact that only 10 days of WALKING distance has been needed for Isildur to get to the Old Ford, you can’t help not to wonder where the Terrible Undead were riding on theirs fast and strong horses during 50+ something more days? I suspect that they took an unhurried promenade to Gundabad, along Ered Mithrin to Withered Heath and back to the Wold.

By this time “the wrath and fear of Sauron was mounting”. In plain words Sauron was really pissed off for such “speedy search” and sended the messengers which was “conveying threats from their master that filled even the Morgul-lord with dismay. I don’t know what kind of “treats” the Undead might fear, but this tells us that the Ringbearers had some intellect left and they, indeed, HAD the will of their own, which is really important point in farther development . You can’t intimidate a machine to do something right. If your car runs slow, it’s pointless to yell “ I’ll send you to junk-yard!”, do the tune-up. :cool:
In any case, due to the later development Sauron, abandoning secrecy, dispatched the Nazguls on full speed to Isengard which they reached two days after Gandalf had escaped from Orthanc, that is September 18.
Saruman "perceived the peril of standing between enemies" and, hoping to get rid at least of one of them , sent the Nazguls to chase Gandalf. Once again "the Lord of the Nazguls did not question what it said" and took off after Gandalf. :confused: Seems, him and Co. would be readily launching on another “ long promenade” through Rohan if, as it said, by lucky (or unlucky) accident they would not meet Wormtongue, who directed them straight to the Shire.

Personally I think that most probably the information about Halfling’s land came not from Grima, but from captured Saruman’s spy, who provided them with a map of the Shire. Because, first of it, all Grima’s matter is Gandalf’s hearsay;he was not present at the meeting and Grima has never spoke of the encounter. Which is, as well, might have never happened. Second of it, even if the straight direction to the Shire had been given to the Nazguls, they did not rush to the destination right away, but on the way out of Rohan they explored the desolation of Enedwaith and Minhiriath.

The Nazguls reached the borders of the Shire on September 22 and at Sarn Ford found them guarded by the Rangers. The Lord of Morgul & Co. with full power slammed on the desperately and stoically trying to bar their way Dunedain.This task turned out to be beyond the power of the descendants of mighty Numenorians and they were slain and driven away by the Nine.
Any way, the memory of the Witch-king got “refreshed” and" he had now clearer understanding of the matter and worked out tactic maneuvers, dividing his team and sending out with different tasks.
Khamul, who of all Nazguls, save the Black Captain himself, had sharper perception of the presence of the Ring, was sent with companion to the Hobbiton to find “Baggins”, the Ringbearer.
The Lord of Morgul decided to visit a familiar place of the Tyrn Gorthad, conveniently removing himself from the search under pretense to rouse all things of evil spirit, even if only he and Khamul could closely
pinpoint the location of the Ring.
Some of the Nazguls was sent to patrol the eastern borders , while others was dispersed along the Shire perimeter, moving North-West. And the drive in has began.

Yes, it was not a search for the ring, but a forceful drive to set the Ringbear on the move towards North-East or North-West direction, just the same as hunters would drive the prey towards designated place.
The reason to think this way was given in depiction of how the Nazguls carried out the order to find the Ring.
Somehow being presented with numerous opportunities to get the Ring quickly and without noise they managed to fail all of them. Does not it look strange that Khamul, who could feel the Ring miles away and “smell the blood of living things“ keener than dog, could not detect Frodo with the ring, when he was standing " just around the corner "(FOTR) or was hiding a few yards from the road, and every time when he picks up the “scent” he goes double-quick in an opposite direction? :confused:
From the far distance he detected and found out the Ringbearer with friends for the third time. Why, then, he made a show of sniffing the ground, like trying to sense the ring which was right in front of his nose, and quickly took off at the sound of elves song? :confused: Even if he can’t stomach the sight of the Elves, he had a perfect chance and enough of time without hindrance to knock out the unarmed ringbearer and take the ring, because the Elves did not show up right away. After his departure the hobbits sat by the road for quite while waiting for the Elves to come down to the lane.

It’s difficult to explain such irrational behavior by anything, save by the uncanny notion that the Nazguls DID NOT WANT to find the Ring. Then everything just falls in place.
All evidence were pointing out that the Nazguls , even totally subjected to Sauron’s will, were not being turned into a mindless zombies. They could carry a complicated commands, develop a strategy, they even had a sense of humor! “His enemies laughed at him with harsh and chilling laughter”.(FOTR)The ability to see a funny side in a grave situation is a sign of the presence of intelligence. So, as I mentioned before, some remnants of their own self was still preserved.
Who were they in previous life? The Mighty Kings which were ruling the countries!
But, if some of their personality was still present and they had the ability to think, wouldn’t they , for over 5 000 years of being utterly subservient to somebody’s will, have a feeling of dread being enslaved without any hopes for a freedom in the future?
The Oathbreakers, which were also “walking in the Shadows” , but for much shorter time than the Nazguls, were more than eager to do anything to break the spell.
At this historic moment when the Ring was out of Sauron’s reach, the Nazguls sensed that possibility of the Ring’s destruction was giving to them the one-and-only opportunity to get the freedom.

[Olmer]

The Nazguls couldn’t go against the direct order of their Master: they had to look for the Ring. But if Sauron will get the Ring, then their slavery will keep on going forewer. And they were sabotaging the order, trying to delay the time without being disobeying. Sauron said to look for “Baggins” in the Vale of Anduin, and they were “looking” for almost 3 month, even if the former King of Angmar knew very well that they were looking for the wind in the field. Then they were “looking” in Rohan, in Enedwaith, in Minhiriath instead of going straight to the Shire. They entered the Shire with enormous racket, killing armed and skillful in fight Dunedain, and then they started to play with Frodo “I don’t see you” game, keeping the Ringbearer on the move.
“I can not think why they have gone and do not attack again,” mumbles Aragorn on the Weathertop after a sudden departure of Nazguls. Really, why? Why they did not grab such perfect opportunity to get the Ring? :confused: Five Nazguls on four hobbits and one Ranger is very uneven match. What frighten them: the flame of Aragorn’s torch or the name of Elbereth? But did not Gandalf fought with them with “such light and flame that cannot have been seen…since the war-beacons of old” and probably he not once had been mentioning Elbereth, and, yet, he lost them only by “escaping”?
The answer could be that the Nazguls secretly were tending the same goal as the White Council :to get the Ring undone. In their own fashion they were trying to move the Ring farther away from Sauron’s reach, chasing the Ringbearer & Co. towards Rivendell, the place with an optimal potentials for the ring’s destruction .

But then again, of the Ring’s search ordeal we know from Gandalf’s description. He constructed the whole picture by tracing Nazguls movements and making wild assumptions (such like what kind of orders the Nazguls received from Sauron, where they have got an information about the Shire, and what they thought or talked about.)
We know about Sauron’s plans from Gandalf’s words, who was mostly guessing, therefore the chances that he misunderstood his intentions are pretty probable.
What if Sauron sent the Ringwraith for a totally different purpose than the search for the the Ring?
What if his plan was to create as much fright around, as Nazguls could do, without making obvious the real intentions?
Then their slow walking through Gondor and Rohan to create a feeling of uprising doom among men , long riding along the Misty Mountains to Erebor to alarm dwarves, Galadriel and Thranduil, and making a wreck in Crickhollow and Bree to cause a panic and fright amidst of hobbit-burghers , has a simple explanation: Sauron wanted men, elves and dwarves to became aware of the existence of the One, and to collide with each other fighting over the Ring, as it had happened long time ago over Silmarills.
It also explains why the members of Fellowship so conveniently turned up in Imladris, precisely at the time when the Ring arrived: Sauron gave a hint about an upcoming enterprise to Denethor and to the dwarves . His persuasion was smart and uncomplicated: he just wanted EVERYBODY to look for the One ring . :evil:
Meanwhile the Nazguls were creating a frightful terror all around, which was driving the ringbearer out of his burrows to the “convention” place, a.k.a Imladris, the task which they accomplished entirely and without fail .

In the light of the aforesaid observations an impression emerges that, whatever the case may be, it definitely has the notion that Tolkien subconsciously tried in unsubtle way to exonerate the loathsome image of the Ringwraiths by pointing out that the story of the Ring’s hunt has been told from the third person’s point of view. Consequently, as the author thought himself, the history of the Middle-earth has more depth than just one-dimensional fairy-tale image.
And just like in the real description of the real events by historians, if you will read the text more attentively, you can find that the interpretation of events is very much depends on whose side the historian is, but the actual happening might have a different explanation.
In this instance, if we are taking Gandalf’s story as the source of the Middle-earth history, we are getting a glimpse of “the other side of coin”, meaning that , regardless of being as strange as it sounds, the explanation of events, based on dates, facts and simple common sense, can be, as well, considered as part of the history of the Middle-earth.
And then, when you are putting all this history facts together, the basic plot of the story suddenly becoming unsubstantial and vague, and, surprised by this discovery, you are sitting and scratching your head in the silent question: ”Where is the Beef?” :confused:

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

If it is true that they wanted the Ring to be destroyed thenwhy did they stab Frodo with the Morgul blade? They knew next to nothing about hobbits so they didn't know that Frodo would fight the wound so long.

[Beren3000]

Interesting theory, Olmer. I find it plausible, albeit a bit hard to stomach.
Maybe this could be an added point of discussion in Val's redemption thread :)

[Olmer]

If it is true that they wanted the Ring to be destroyed then why did they stab Frodo with the Morgul blade? .
I think to speed up the delivery of the Ring to Rivendell.
Besides, you'll never know for sure what real intention of The Black Captain could have been, and if this stab had not been provoked. As we know, Frodo made the first strike.

Interesting theory, Olmer. I find it plausible, albeit a bit hard to stomach
Thanks.
Sorry for your "bad digestion", I was just trying my best to explain the story's inconsistencies. :)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But surely thay could have waited for the Ring to get to Rivendell. Just because Frodo got stabbed the distance didn't get less. Frodo didn't flle them just because he got stabbed, the Ring still drew them.

[Michael Martinez]

The Nazgul, being completely subservient to Sauron's will, could not have plotted against him or desired his failure. Tolkien would not have described their enslavement in such an unambiguous fashion if that was his true intention.

[Butterbeer]

i don't think the skill of tolkien's writing was to make anything so black and white ... Mr MM

nor is anything cast in stone ... barring the casting of elrond in the films!

[ecthelion]

That's a beautifl theory, it shows JRR at his best. Give us more like it! :)
As to the critics:
they stabbed frodo on weathertop so that he will fade and become their servant, there's a whole thread about it.
And according to this theory the wraiths did not "plot" against sauron, they had a small remainder of a former (very strong) will that fought, if very subtly, with that of sauron.
Go Olmer!

[Gordis]

I am so glad that you decided to re-open this thread, BB and Ecthelion. I wanted to do it myself when I joined, but this last post by M.Martinez was so... FINAL. It is not easy to contradict the Big Boss.

But it is true, there is a lot of facts both from UT and LOTR supporting Olmer's theory. And there is but a single quote from the Unfinished Tales to counerbalance that.
Now, what is that "Hunt for the Ring" (UT)? It is but a story told by GANDALF to the HOBBITS after the victory. So it is Gandalf's POV, nothing more. Was he privy to the secrets of the Dark Tower? NO. Has he got some confidences from the Nazgul or from Sauron? Definitely not.
So it is Gandalf's ASSUMPTION. He could not KNOW whether the Nazgul had some remnants of their very strong wills (good point that, Echtelion), or not. I believe they did, otherwise why would Tolkien write in LOTR about the Morgul-Lord in such a way?
"But it was no orc-chieftain or brigand that led the assault upon Gondor. The darkness was breaking too soon, before the date that his Master had set for it: fortune had betrayed him for the moment, and the world had turned against him; victory was slipping from his grasp even as he stretched out his hand to seize it. But his arm was long. He was still in command, wielding great powers. King, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgûl, he had many weapons. He left the gate and vanished."
Does it sounds like the Nazgul King "had no will of his own"?

[Jon S.]

Never mind ...

[Butterbeer]

I am so glad that you decided to re-open this thread, BB and Ecthelion. I wanted to do it myself when I joined, but this last post by M.Martinez was so... FINAL. It is not easy to contradict the Big Boss.

But it is true, there is a lot of facts both from UT and LOTR supporting Olmer's theory. And there is but a single quote from the Unfinished Tales to counerbalance that.
Now, what is that "Hunt for the Ring" (UT)? It is but a story told by GANDALF to the HOBBITS after the victory. So it is Gandalf's POV, nothing more. Was he privy to the secrets of the Dark Tower? NO. Has he got some confidences from the Nazgul or from Sauron? Definitely not.
So it is Gandalf's ASSUMPTION. He could not KNOW whether the Nazgul had some remnants of their very strong wills (good point that, Echtelion), or not. I believe they did, otherwise why would Tolkien write in LOTR about the Morgul-Lord in such a way?

Does it sounds like the Nazgul King "had no will of his own"?


but this last post by M.Martinez was so... FINAL. It is not easy to contradict the Big Boss.

ahh, screw him ... self-publicist by the looks of his links ... nothing in particular against him as such (havent really ever read him bar a quick scan of his links just now) but Mr MM vers Lord Olmer? sorry, no kaboodle...

good point indeed ecthelion!

Gor: 'course gandalf was saying his POV as best he could, no doubt, but also guessing .. and that is the point here: he was never a nazgul and never KNEW it or experienced it.

(for eg when in tolkien did gandalf ever get drunk and eat strawberries, eh? Not once! so of course he was guessing ;) :D )

seriously though, Mr MM, whatever his credentials or not - for i know not and care not - no offence mr MM - nowt' personal -

seriously though, what matters one opinion to healthy debate?

where IS olmer btw?

[Butterbeer]

Never mind ...


??? c'mon Jon S. .. :) give us more and less cryptic too! ;)

or are we to take it to mean we are to guess even as mr MM or gandalf? :cool:

best BB :)

[Gordis]

ahh, screw him ... self-publicist by the looks of his links ... nothing in particular against him as such (havent really ever read him bar a quick scan of his links just now) but Mr MM vers Lord Olmer? sorry, no kaboodle...
...
seriously though, Mr MM, whatever his credentials or not - for i know not and care not - no offence mr MM - nowt' personal -

seriously though, what matters one opinion to healthy debate?

where IS olmer btw?

Olmer is absent, no one knows if he returns. Val says he used to disappear before. I miss him.

About MMartinez.

He IS a great Tolkien scholar, author of about a hundred articles about Tolkien's world and a book "Visualizing ME". It is quite an interesting book, I advise all to have a look. It is downloadable in PDF on Suite 101.

Suite101 (http://www.suite101.com/articles.cfm/tolkien)

So, I have a deep respect for M.Martinez. But is he ALWAYS right? I doubt it. I think Olmes's hypothesis is very solid.

[Jon S.]

??? c'mon Jon S. .. :) give us more and less cryptic too! ;)

or are we to take it to mean we are to guess even as mr MM or gandalf? :cool:

best BB :)

LOL! :D

It's less cryptic than it seems - I posted something I thought was so original only to re-read the thread and realize ... uhum ... it kinda wasn't. :o

[Nurvingiel]

I really like your theory Olmer. I think it's well thought-out and well supported. :) Even though Tolkien wrote a very detailed history of Middle-earth, he didn't explain everything in it. I think it is possible that the Nazgul, or at least the Witch-king, who seems the toughest, still had control of a small part of their minds. I don't think we can ever know for certain, in cases like this, exactly what Tolkien intended.

As for Frodo getting stabbed at Weathertop, I'd like to add to your theory (if you like this).

The Nazgul had thus far been deliberately wasting time and not finding the Ring. However, they had to seem to be finding it so Sauron wouldn't get suspicious. So they hurried to Weathertop as if they really did want to find the Ring. Sauron could, after all, sense their every move.
To the Nazgul, maybe it didn't really matter who carried the Ring as long as they didn't find it. What they really wanted was for it to remain unfound. Maybe they figured if they stabbed Frodo and he became a wraith, the Ring would be taken to Rivendell, and it would not have a new bearer.
They might have also assumed that was Frodo's intention in the first place, so stabbing him wasn't going to disrupt the Ring's stagnation in Rivendell.
Having the Ring stay somewhere like Rivendell was probably the best they could do, given the circumstances.

Hm... I didn't explain that as well as your original posts were, but what do you think?

[Gordis]

To the Nazgul, maybe it didn't really matter who carried the Ring as long as they didn't find it. What they really wanted was for it to remain unfound. Maybe they figured if they stabbed Frodo and he became a wraith, the Ring would be taken to Rivendell, and it would not have a new bearer.
They might have also assumed that was Frodo's intention in the first place, so stabbing him wasn't going to disrupt the Ring's stagnation in Rivendell.
Having the Ring stay somewhere like Rivendell was probably the best they could do, given the circumstances.

Very interesting additions, Nurvingiel!

I don't think they wanted the Ring to remain hidden, they wanted it destroyed.
After Sauron got the Nazgul Rings from the nazgul (probably in TA 2951, only 67 years before LOTR), they became enslaved again, as they were in the Second Age, when Sauron wielded the One and they had the Nine. They had no hope to get their rings back, there was no end to their servitude. And they probably suffered without their rings.
Now if the One were hidden in Rivendell, their situation would not improve. Instead, Sauron, most likely, would attack Rivendell and get the Ring.

No they wanted the Ring destroyed, hoping to become free. At least, free to go to Mandos and beyond. But their behaviour was not necessarily suicidal:

`But what then would happen, if the Ruling Ring were destroyed as you counsel?' asked Glóin.
'We know not for certain,' answered Elrond sadly. `Some hope that the Three Rings, which Sauron has never touched, would then become free, and their rulers might heal the hurts of the world that he has wrought. But maybe when the One has gone, the Three will fail, and many fair things will fade and be forgotten. That is my belief.'
As we know, Elrond was right. But this quote shows, that even among the Wise, there was no consensus on the matter, before the Ring was actually destroyed. Some hoped that after the destruction of the One, the other Rings way become FREE, but still keep their power.

Perhaps even Sauron himself could not be sure. It is not true that he knew all about the Rings. Tolkien writes that Sauron believed for a long time that the Elves destroyed his Ring. That means, he did not know for certain that his existence depended on it so much. Nobody could be absolutely sure before "the experiment" itself.

Now, it is likely, that the nazgul were not sure about it either. Perhaps, they had some hope that the destruction of the One will destroy Sauron and free the Nazgul Rings. Then all they had to do was to dig their Rings in Barad Dur, and they could have lived happily ever after.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yet if it was destroyed then there would be a good chance that they would die.

Was Khamûl at the Battle of the Black Gate? If not then it would strongly suggest that they did die with the destruction of the One, but if so he may have just been caught up within the fire.

[Gordis]

Yet if it was destroyed then there would be a good chance that they would die.

Was Khamûl at the Battle of the Black Gate? If not then it would strongly suggest that they did die with the destruction of the One, but if so he may have just been caught up within the fire.
To die and to go out of the circles of Arda is not the worst of fates... They have been undead for 4 thousand years, even elves grow tired of living so long. I think, they took the chance.

Khamul... He hardly was present at Pelennor on March 15, as the same day there was an assault on Lorien from Dol Guldur. But, I believe, he was at the black Gate all right. Tolkien mentiones eight remaining nazgul, as far as I remember.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Okay thanks Gor. I don't think any of the Nazgûl apart from the Witch-King were at the Pelennor. At the end of TTT I think it was Shagrat who said 'The High Nazgûl has gone to War' making no mention of the others going. Also one of the Nazgûl was put in charge of Cirith Ungol so I'm guessing that they weren't at the Pelennor.

[Gordis]

Oh, no, there were at least 6-7, I believe, flying overhead.
The Nazgûl came again, and as their Dark Lord now grew and put forth his strength, so their voices, which uttered only his will and his malice, were filled with evil and horror. Ever they circled above the City, like vultures that expect their fill of doomed men’s flesh. Out of sight and shot they flew, and yet were ever present, and their deadly voices rent the air.
That was on the 14.03 I believe they were still there during the night.
As for the 15.03, The Lord of Morgul was slain shortly after sunrise.

There was a line in LOTR draft, not erased, but simply missed, when it was copied on a typewriter. "After the WK was brought down, the nazgul flew back to Mordor in fear and dismay". Sorry, I can't check the quote, I rely only on memory.

And then Frodo and Sam, saw one nazgul just after they escapd Cirith Ungol tower, in the early hours of 15.03. Then at the first light, they felt another flying high overhead:
They started off again. They had not gone far when Frodo paused. ‘There’s a Black Rider over us,’ he said. ‘I can feel it. We had better keep still for a while.’

And then they saw the third, bearing news of the Witch-King's fall:
As Frodo and Sam stood and gazed, the rim of light spread all along the line of the Ephel Dúath, and then they saw a shape, moving at a great speed out of the West, at first only a black speck against the glimmering strip above the mountain-tops, but growing, until it plunged like a bolt into the dark canopy and passed high above them. As it went it sent out a long shrill cry, the voice of a Nazgûl; but this cry no longer held any terror for them: it was a cry of woe and dismay, ill tidings for the Dark Tower. The Lord of the Ring-wraiths had met his doom.
So, the nazgul were used to frighten the enemies, when flying overhead and screeching, as well as for bearing news to Sauron and his orders back.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Okay, thanks for the info Gor. Where did you find out about the missed line.

[Gordis]

Okay, thanks for the info Gor. Where did you find out about the missed line.
In HOME of course. It must be in "The War of the Ring", I believe, but I have no books with me to check. :)

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

In the movies they all attack Minas Tirith, i didn't like that, it wasn't realistic.

[Gordis]

BUMP - needed for reference :)

[CAB]

Thank you for bumping this thread Gordis. Although I think that there are some problems with Olmer’s theory, it is very interesting and well thought out. After rereading this thread, I began to wonder about something. Could Gildor’s actions/inactions be explained by his having recognized the Nazgul’s “show” for what it really was (at least according to this theory)? I had always considered his not helping Frodo something of a “crime of apathy”. However, if he knew that the Nazgul wouldn’t really attempt to capture Frodo, maybe he could be excused. Also, if he believed that Gandalf was purposely keeping his distance (I don’t think Gildor could have known about Gandalf’s capture by Saruman) maybe he thought that he should also.

[Gordis]

Thank you for bumping this thread Gordis. Although I think that there are some problems with Olmer’s theory, it is very interesting and well thought out.
I think the only problem is that he gives two possible explanations to the strange nazgul behaviour, one of wich I can't buy at all. I will never believe they acted on Sauron's orders, driving the Ring to Rivendell. Neither do I agree with his AU interpretation of the One Ring.


After rereading this thread, I began to wonder about something. Could Gildor’s actions/inactions be explained by his having recognized the Nazgul’s “show” for what it really was (at least according to this theory)? I had always considered his not helping Frodo something of a “crime of apathy”. However, if he knew that the Nazgul wouldn’t really attempt to capture Frodo, maybe he could be excused. Also, if he believed that Gandalf was purposely keeping his distance (I don’t think Gildor could have known about Gandalf’s capture by Saruman) maybe he thought that he should also.

Very interesting. I was also shocked by Gildor's behaviour even the first time I read LoTR. But I kept thinking that he gave no help because he was such a *** like most Elves :D .

But maybe you are right and there is more to it. :)

[CAB]

Neither do I agree with his AU interpretation of the One Ring.
Umm...I hate to admit this, but I don't know what an AU interpretation is.

[Gordis]

AU stands for 'Alternative Universe" and means a serious deviation from Tolkien Canon.

Olmer, if I understand rightly (sorry if I don't, Olmer :) ), thinks that the One Ring is just a device to suck power from its current possessor and transmit it to Sauron. So Sauron never meant to keep it himself, instead he was interested to give it to the most powerful being possible: to Galadriel, Elrond or Gandalf, or even to the Barlog - to suck them dry of their power.
Of course it is very uncanonic. I never agreed with it, it just changes too much in the Tolkien world.

[CAB]

AU stands for 'Alternative Universe" and means a serious deviation from Tolkien Canon.
I see. Thank you for the explanation.


Olmer, if I understand rightly (sorry if I don't, Olmer :) ), thinks that the One Ring is just a device to suck power from its current possessor and transmit it to Sauron. So Sauron never meant to keep it himself, instead he was interested to give it to the most powerful being possible: to Galadriel, Elrond or Gandalf, or even to the Barlog - to suck them dry of their power.
Of course it is very uncanonic. I never agreed with it, it just changes too much in the Tolkien world.
I have seen Olmer’s opinion, on this thread and others, that Sauron wanted the Ring to be claimed by his powerful opponents. I thought the reason why was so they would be corrupted or made his servants or allies. I guess this makes more sense, in a way. Without having seen the whole argument, I would have to disagree with this theory. But if it is coming from Olmer, then I am sure that there is plenty of evidence supporting it.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

AU stands for 'Alternative Universe" and means a serious deviation from Tolkien Canon.

No it doesn't, it stands for "Anglican Use". Gosh, people! :p :D

[TreebeardQuickbeam]

Wouldn't it make sense for Sauron to search for the ring himself instead of sending any of his servants?

[Gordis]

Welcome to the Moot!


Wouldn't it make sense for Sauron to search for the ring himself instead of sending any of his servants?
Do you think he would have done better than his nazgul? :)

A really smart thing to do would be to send some black Numenoreans disguised as rangers AND a couple nazgul to keep them in line. :evil: