The Lord of the Rings Discussion, Book II, Chapter 1

[brownjenkins]

Many Meetings

Here begins the next phase of the Ring's journey. We find Frodo wakening in a comfortable bed in Rivendell, nearly musing as if all was a dream till he spots the richly-carved beams on the ceiling and hears the voice of the long-absent Gandalf. Yes! Gandalf, the wiley old wizard himself, bringing Frodo right back down to earth with his talk of how lucky he was to be here after the 'absurd' things he had done since leaving home. Another glimpse at the dry humor we see from the grey one from time to time. Is there a method behind his sometimes sharp sense of wit, or is it just his way of expressing himself?

Frodo is somewhat surprised when Gandalf expresses so much knowledge of his travels. The wizard mentions that the hobbit spoke in his sleep, and also that "it has not been hard for me to read your mind and memory". Possibly a rare glimpse at one of Gandalf's more mystical powers?

We learn that Frodo has been unconcious for four days and three nights, watched over by Sam and Gandalf (and Bilbo, we learn later), and mended by the healing powers of the Elf-lord Elrond. It seems that a fragment of the morgul-blade was lodged in his shoulder, and this piece was slowly working its way to his heart. If successful, this would have lead to a state that even Gandalf saw as beyond repair. Yet only the night before, Elrond was able to dislodge this splinter and remove the threat of Frodo 'fading'. A fate which Gandalf is surprised the hobbit was able to hold off for so long. Something he even doubted even a strong warrior among men could have done.

Gandalf also gives Frodo a glimpse of what he might have become, a wraith tied to Sauron's will, to be tormented for keeping the ring from him. The greatest torment being the vision of the ruling ring once again on the Dark Lord's hand. Why does Gandalf see this as so particularly painful to the Ringbearer? Is it just the failure of the quest, or is it something more?

Of note also is Frodo's statement about how much more terrified he would have been had he known the full implications of what he was facing. There is little doubt that Gandalf held some information back when he spoke of the Ring and the Ringwraiths during 'The Shadow of the Past'. Was he hiding infomation in fear that Frodo would not accept the task, or was there maybe another purpose?

The wizard tells Frodo how the ring, when worn, places him half within the world of the wraiths. An unseen world which we learn that elves such as Glorfindel, who have seen the Blessed Realm, have a special awareness of. This would seem to point to the world of the spirit, or 'the soul'. Everpresent, yet unfathomable to the common man, hobbit, or even elf. A place where the Elf-lord shines like a star. This is a power which Gandalf sees as a force to use against the Enemy. He also says 'There is power, too, of another kind in the Shire.' What do you feel is this power of the spirit among the elves? And what of the other kind in the Shire?

Gandalf mentions he was delayed, and hints of the story yet to come. Then he retells the events at the Ford of Bruinen. How Elrond was behind the flood, which the wizard embellished with a water-formed cavalry and rolling boulders. And how Strider and Glorfindel forced the steeds with the six Ringwraiths, who were not taken immediately, into the water where they most likely perished, though the wraiths themselves survived.

After some rest, Frodo is reunited with Sam and they set out to explore the Last Homely House. They meet up with Merry and Pippin who, to the dismay of Gandalf, expresses his fool-of-a-tookishness by naming Frodo 'Lord of the Ring'. This Pip shrugs off as usual wizardly gloom and doom, saying it is much to cheery in Rivendell for such worries. Another expression of a 'timelessness' Bilbo later mentions. Is this a quality of all elvish abodes?

At the sound of bells, they leave for a banquet where we get some marvelous descriptions of Glorfindel, Gandalf and master Elrond in their finest. We also see Arwen for the first time, who's beauty is likened to Lúthien, the fairest elvenkind has ever known. Frodo is seated next to Glóin of 'there and back again' fame, and we hear a few more hints of stories to come concerning Balin and events at The Lonely Mountain.

After the meal Frodo heads with Gandalf to the Hall of Fire, where music is played and stories told. To his surprise he meets none other than Bilbo himself there, composing a song he plans to sing for the elven revellers. Bilbo speaks of his travels back to Erebor and his retirement in Rivendell. He asks to see the ring again, but when Frodo produces it, a shadow-vision of an almost gollum-like appearance comes over Bilbo, and the old hobbit expresses his regrets to Frodo about the whole affair. If Gandalf had only known sooner, Bilbo would have brought it here long ago. Is there any validity to this musing, or may Gandalf have had other reasons for leaving the Ring in the Shire, which he may not have positively identified, but certainly had concerns about?

The chapter closes with Aragorn returning, kept from the banquet due to a desire for information from Elrond's sons, and assisting Bilbo in finishing his song. One of the most beautiful and richly-detailed compositions in the trilogy, it speaks of the voyage of Eärendil and his ultimate fate.

More than anything so far in this rereading, this passage brought me back to my first experience with the Lord of the Rings. It was sometime around 1977, give or take. Having read the Silmarillion and most of the HoME books now, Bilbo's tune is just a snippit of the vast history of the First Age. But back then, when it was all so new, there was so much mystery behind this song and many of the references in this chapter and the one to come. I remember thinking, before I even had the benefit of the appendices behind me, who was this Eärendil and why was it so bold of Bilbo to sing about him in the House of Elrond? This sense of layers and deeper lore is why, to this day, I still suggest new readers follow Tolkien's works by publication as opposed to chronology. It makes the uncovering of the stories within the Silmarillion and those that follow all the more anticipated and wonderful.



PS ~ see RÃ*an, i do have a SHIFT key :p

[Artanis]

Great intro brownjenkins! :)
Frodo is somewhat surprised when Gandalf expresses so much knowledge of his travels. The wizard mentions that the hobbit spoke in his sleep, and also that "it has not been hard for me to read your mind and memory". Possibly a rare glimpse at one of Gandalf's more mystical powers?The capability of exchanging thoughts with others is not a power that only Gandalf has. The Elves has it too, and Men to a certain extent. I think the Frodo's qualities which allows him to be resceptible to foretelling dreams, also allows Gandalf to read his mind so easily. It requires openness and trust, or perhaps I should say faith, and it requires a clean conscience, that there is nothing to hide. So I think this is another expression of Frodo's good qualities. :)
Gandalf also gives Frodo a glimpse of what he might have become, a wraith tied to Sauron's will, to be tormented for keeping the ring from him. The greatest torment being the vision of the ruling ring once again on the Dark Lord's hand. Why does Gandalf see this as so particularly painful to the Ringbearer? Is it just the failure of the quest, or is it something more?I think it would be especially painful to Frodo because the Ring has been in his possession for quite a long time, he has been wearing it, and he is already feeling an ownership to it. Even Bilbo found it hard to give the Ring away.

That's all I can do right now ... more later ...

[Valandil]

PS ~ see RÃ*an, i do have a SHIFT key :p

Nice intro... congrats on the new keyboard! ;)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Great intro brownjenkins.

But back then, when it was all so new, there was so much mystery behind this song and many of the references in this chapter and the one to come. I remember thinking, before I even had the benefit of the appendices behind me, who was this Eärendil and why was it so bold of Bilbo to sing about him in the House of Elrond? This sense of layers and deeper lore is why, to this day, I still suggest new readers follow Tolkien's works by publication as opposed to chronology. It makes the uncovering of the stories within the Silmarillion and those that follow all the more anticipated and wonderful.

I thought this to when I read LotR for the first (or third) time before I had read The Silmarillion.

[BeardofPants]

I have to shamefully admit that for the first two or three readings, this was one of my least favourite chapters. :o

[Beren3000]

Thanks for a good intro, brownjenkins.
Here are my thoughts:
Is there a method behind his sometimes sharp sense of wit, or is it just his way of expressing himself?
I think that these "absurd" things made Gandalf very worried and maybe angry with Frodo. But at this stage Frodo was still too weak to face any blame or reproach so the wizard settled for this light-hearted prod.
Why does Gandalf see this as so particularly painful to the Ringbearer? Is it just the failure of the quest, or is it something more?
I agree with Artanis, the pain would have mainly come from Frodo's possessiveness of the Ring. But there's another simple reason, too. As you stated in your intro, brownjenkins, Frodo would be tormented for keeping the Ring from Sauron. Sauron would consider Frodo insolent and probably dangerous for having been able to ward off the call of the Ring and therefore would have tormented him endlessly.
Was he hiding infomation in fear that Frodo would not accept the task, or was there maybe another purpose?
IMO, Gandalf never doubted that Frodo would accept the task. He probably didn't want fear of the Nazgul to over come Frodo's senses so as to make him do something rash that would harm the quest; but I don't think that Gandalf suspected that Frodo would quit. Speaking of fear, maybe this is another reason. As you can see in Attalus's sig, the Nazgul's power was greatest through fear. So if Frodo had set out already afraid of the Nazgul that may have caused them to have the upper hand and take the Ring from Frodo. (Olmer would have a different opinion ;) )
And what of the other kind in the Shire?
I have always thought that this power is the hobbits' light-heartedness and carefree state. It is this, IMO, that makes them so immune to the Ring's influence (that would also explain why Frodo's immunity to the Ring lessens with time: he's slowly "losing his innocence").
Is this a quality of all elvish abodes?
It would seem so, since we have only Lothlorien for reference (but that's still upcoming ;) ). The dwellings of elves in the Sil seem normal compared to Imladris and Lorien, and (IIRC) the only place described as "timeless" was the Halls of Mandos.

Thanks again, brownjenkins :)

[Elanor the Fair]

Thanks, brownjenkins.

I very much enjoyed reading your chapter summary. I really liked this part of the book. I felt it gave the reader (and the characters) a little bit of a breather!! This is the first time we come into an elven realm in the book I like the mood it portrays.

I've posted just a few thoughts....(i tried to post them last night but I couldn't get on to the server....

Gandalf, the wiley old wizard himself, bringing Frodo right back down to earth with his talk of how lucky he was to be here after the 'absurd' things he had done since leaving home. Another glimpse at the dry humor we see from the grey one from time to time. Is there a method behind his sometimes sharp sense of wit, or is it just his way of expressing himself?
The type of humour displayed by Gandalf is a typical way of dealing with serious issues. A bit of gentle teasing often covers up deeper concerns and issues. Tolkien alludes to this in another part of the book...
"But it is the way of my people to use light words at such times and say less than they mean. We fear to say too much. It robs us of the right words when a jest is out of place."
Yet only the night before, Elrond was able to dislodge this splinter and remove the threat of Frodo 'fading'. A fate which Gandalf is surprised the hobbit was able to hold off for so long. Something he even doubted even a strong warrior among men could have done.
That wholesome Shire air and good, nourishing food sure have their advantages!!! :D

Of note also is Frodo's statement about how much more terrified he would have been had he known the full implications of what he was facing. There is little doubt that Gandalf held some information back when he spoke of the Ring and the Ringwraiths during 'The Shadow of the Past'. Was he hiding infomation in fear that Frodo would not accept the task, or was there maybe another purpose?
Probably both. I think Gandalf feared that Frodo would be so frightened that he would not be able to thnk rationally if he knew the full extent of the danger. Its like Frodo said..
"I was mortally afraid of course; but if I had known more, I should not have dared even to move."
This is a power which Gandalf sees as a force to use against the Enemy. He also says 'There is power, too, of another kind in the Shire.' What do you feel is this power of the spirit among the elves? And what of the other kind in the Shire?
What is the power in the Shire? That goodness, truth and beauty have a power all of their own. That not all power is held by "powerful" people but also by simple people.

Bilbo speaks of his travels back to Erebor and his retirement in Rivendell. He asks to see the ring again, but when Frodo produces it, a shadow-vision of an almost gollum-like appearance comes over Bilbo, and the old hobbit expresses his regrets to Frodo about the whole affair.
I've always wondered about the gollum-like appearance that comes over Bilbo. Does this really happen or is this just how Frodo perceives him, as Frodo becomes more in the power of the Ring?

This sense of layers and deeper lore is why, to this day, I still suggest new readers follow Tolkien's works by publication as opposed to chronology. It makes the uncovering of the stories within the Silmarillion and those that follow all the more anticipated and wonderful.
I agree with this, and for this reason LoTR is still my favourite of all Tolkien's books.

[brownjenkins]

thanks for the kind words everyone... my first go at it :o

The type of humour displayed by Gandalf is a typical way of dealing with serious issues. A bit of gentle teasing often covers up deeper concerns and issues. Tolkien alludes to this in another part of the book..."But it is the way of my people to use light words at such times and say less than they mean. We fear to say too much. It robs us of the right words when a jest is out of place."

this is kind of how i see it... a way for him to calm people's fears by taking their minds off of them to an extent

that quote says it perfectly :)

[Rían]

PS ~ see RÃ*an, i do have a SHIFT key[/SIZE] :p
I can't believe it! *thud* :D

[Rían]

Great intro, brownie! Wonderful capitals! ;)

Q: Is there a method behind his sometimes sharp sense of wit, or is it just his way of expressing himself?

I don't know if there's a purpose behind it. I know that when I'm working on something difficult with someone, we tend to use some humor like that just to defuse some of the tension. I think it might be something similar. I think Gandy was probably aware of some of Frodo's great danger at times, and is now joking about it in a head-shaking "I just can't BELIEVE it!" way.


Q: Why does Gandalf see this as so particularly painful to the Ringbearer? Is it just the failure of the quest, or is it something more?

It seems like the worst thing for a Ringbearer to bear is to see someone else with the Ring, altho that was working slowly on Hobbits, and Bilbo was even able to give it away with the help of Gandalf. That bit later on in the story about how Frodo saw Sam as a grasping Orc really illustrated this well. Perhaps even if Frodo had lost it at this early stage, if he was not "healed" somehow, the power it had over him would get worse and worse over the years.


Q: Was he hiding infomation in fear that Frodo would not accept the task, or was there maybe another purpose?

I think he told Frodo enough, and realized, like Gildor, that knowing too much would incapacitate him.


Q: What do you feel is this power of the spirit among the elves? And what of the other kind in the Shire?

It's their genes :D ;) (little joke from another thread... :) )

This made me think of a line from Milton's Paradise Lost (note - this was written almost 400 years ago, and "awful" has the meaning of "awe-inspiring because of power", NOT "yucky".) Satan is talking to an angel, and the angel is rebuking Satan for his evil plans, and Milton wrote: "Abashed the Devil stood, and felt how awful goodness is ..."

Great line - there's a power in goodness that evil can't touch.


Q: Is this a quality of all elvish abodes?

There's an interesting essay in one of the HoME (History of Middle Earth) books that talks about different time flows for mortals and elves ... I hope one result of this thread is that people will investigate the books beyond LOTR :)


Q: Is there any validity to this musing, or may Gandalf have had other reasons for leaving the Ring in the Shire, which he may not have positively identified, but certainly had concerns about?

I think Gandalf was probably telling the truth - he trusted Saruman for a long time, then only confirmed his suspicions when the fire-letters showed on the Ring, altho he had enough concern to place a watch around the Shire.


Q: ....there was so much mystery behind this song and many of the references in this chapter and the one to come. I remember thinking, before I even had the benefit of the appendices behind me, who was this Eärendil and why was it so bold of Bilbo to sing about him in the House of Elrond? This sense of layers and deeper lore is why, to this day, I still suggest new readers follow Tolkien's works by publication as opposed to chronology. It makes the uncovering of the stories within the Silmarillion and those that follow all the more anticipated and wonderful.

Yes, I just love the layering and the mystery and the sense of stories upon stories ... I wondered, too, about why it was audacious for Bilbo to sing that ... For me, though, it was the Gil-galad song that really gripped me and gave me my love of the First Age ... *wanders off, chanting "Gil-galad was an elven king ..."

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Another glimpse at the dry humor we see from the grey one from time to time. Is there a method behind his sometimes sharp sense of wit, or is it just his way of expressing himself?

I think it was Gandalf easing away an awkward situation as Frodo was not fully recovered yet.

Frodo is somewhat surprised when Gandalf expresses so much knowledge of his travels. The wizard mentions that the hobbit spoke in his sleep, and also that "it has not been hard for me to read your mind and memory". Possibly a rare glimpse at one of Gandalf's more mystical powers?

No. I think that Frodo had talked in his sleep and Gandalf had news from the hobbits and Strider. He may have even spoken to Tom Bombadil as I thought it was a bit wierd when in the next chapter he knew so much about him.

fate which Gandalf is surprised the hobbit was able to hold off for so long. Something he even doubted even a strong warrior among men could have done.

I think wound has the same effect as the Ring on hobbits. They were so carefree (for the most part) that such things took longer to work on them and they were better at fighting it.

Gandalf also gives Frodo a glimpse of what he might have become, a wraith tied to Sauron's will, to be tormented for keeping the ring from him. The greatest torment being the vision of the ruling ring once again on the Dark Lord's hand. Why does Gandalf see this as so particularly painful to the Ringbearer? Is it just the failure of the quest, or is it something more?

It's having the Ring taken from you. Gandalf says that if he were to take it from Frodo by force then he would first break his mind. Bilbo gave the Ring away, he did it by his own free will.

Of note also is Frodo's statement about how much more terrified he would have been had he known the full implications of what he was facing. There is little doubt that Gandalf held some information back when he spoke of the Ring and the Ringwraiths during 'The Shadow of the Past'. Was he hiding infomation in fear that Frodo would not accept the task, or was there maybe another purpose?

As said before. If Frodo knew exacly what they were and what they could do he would have possibly frozen by fear and have been caught. I wouldn't say he was hiding information as I think he would have told Frodo if he had insisted but he just wasn't telling him everything. I think that is why Gildor did not say anything for if Gandalf had not then he shouldn't.

The wizard tells Frodo how the ring, when worn, places him half within the world of the wraiths. An unseen world which we learn that elves such as Glorfindel, who have seen the Blessed Realm, have a special awareness of. This would seem to point to the world of the spirit, or 'the soul'. Everpresent, yet unfathomable to the common man, hobbit, or even elf. A place where the Elf-lord shines like a star.

Would Gandalf have seen Frodo when he had the Ring on for wasn't he created in Valinor, though he didn't abide there for long, by the Valar.

This is a power which Gandalf sees as a force to use against the Enemy. He also says 'There is power, too, of another kind in the Shire.' What do you feel is this power of the spirit among the elves? And what of the other kind in the Shire?

Power to fight things others couldn't. There free will and carefreefulness had a power which no other race had.

Gandalf mentions he was delayed, and hints of the story yet to come.

This is when it shows me how much power Gandalf had. When Frodo replies 'You!' Gandalf says that even he, Gandalf the Grey had others more powerful it showed me two things. One, Gandalfs true power and capability and two, that these other must be very powerful.

After some rest, Frodo is reunited with Sam and they set out to explore the Last Homely House. They meet up with Merry and Pippin who, to the dismay of Gandalf, expresses his fool-of-a-tookishness by naming Frodo 'Lord of the Ring'. This Pip shrugs off as usual wizardly gloom and doom, saying it is much to cheery in Rivendell for such worries. Another expression of a 'timelessness' Bilbo later mentions. Is this a quality of all elvish abodes?

If Pippin had said that in Frodo's room while e was awake conversing with Gandalf I exprct he would have dismissed it with a 'no he's not', but as seen as Frodo had recovered Gandalf reverted back to telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

At the sound of bells, they leave for a banquet where we get some marvelous descriptions of Glorfindel, Gandalf and master Elrond in their finest.

This is the first time I really see Elrond as the wise loremaster he is. In the Hobbit I though of him as an old elf with grey hairs who just happened to own alot of land. This description of his face being neither young or old but riddled with memories, both sorrows and glad ones, really showed his majest and glory.

After the meal Frodo heads with Gandalf to the Hall of Fire, where music is played and stories told. To his surprise he meets none other than Bilbo himself there, composing a song he plans to sing for the elven revellers. Bilbo speaks of his travels back to Erebor and his retirement in Rivendell. He asks to see the ring again, but when Frodo produces it, a shadow-vision of an almost gollum-like appearance comes over Bilbo, and the old hobbit expresses his regrets to Frodo about the whole affair. If Gandalf had only known sooner, Bilbo would have brought it here long ago. Is there any validity to this musing, or may Gandalf have had other reasons for leaving the Ring in the Shire, which he may not have positively identified, but certainly had concerns about?

I don't think it is just Frodo who percieves him like this as it says the whol room goes quite before Bilbo speaks again.

The chapter closes with Aragorn returning, kept from the banquet due to a desire for information from Elrond's sons, and assisting Bilbo in finishing his song. One of the most beautiful and richly-detailed compositions in the trilogy, it speaks of the voyage of Eärendil and his ultimate fate.

During this bit it becomes clear that Aragorn is no ordinary man and he has some unique and important lineage.

[Artanis]

Was he hiding infomation in fear that Frodo would not accept the task, or was there maybe another purpose?Beren has already expressed my thoughts about this - I think Gandalf didn't want to give the Black Riders an advantage by imposing fear into the Hobbits.
What do you feel is this power of the spirit among the elves?Ah, this reminds me of a certain battle in the Elder days, where it is told that the Orcs fled before the Elves, whose eyes still had the light of Aman. It also reminds me of a certain son of Fëanor whose "spirit burned like a white fire within, and he was as one that returns from the dead", and the Orcs fled from his face. :) It is another expression of the symbolism in allof Tolkien's work. The evil thrives in darkness and fear the light. Glorfindel, who presumably had not only lived in Aman but had also been dead and reincarnated, would have a powerful spirit, which make him appear as shining with a clear light.
And what of the other kind in the Shire?Not pure goodness I think, there were bad Hobbits too. I think Gandalf may have been referring to the naivity among the Hobbits, their unwillingness to realise that evil exists in the world.
Another expression of a 'timelessness' Bilbo later mentions. Is this a quality of all elvish abodes?The sense of timelessness may be enhanced in Imladris by the Elven Ring that Elrond bore, though in a lesser extent than in Lórien. I don't think Bilbo felt the same when he was in Mirkwood, Legolas' home. RÃ*an, Legolas himself mentions how time floats differently for Elves: `Nay, time does not tarry ever,' he said; `but change and growth is not in all things and places alike. For the Elves the world moves, and it moves both very swift and very slow. Swift, because they themselves change little, and all else fleets by: it is a grief to them. Slow, because they do not count the running years, not for themselves. The passing seasons are but ripples ever repeated in the long long stream. Yet beneath the Sun all things must wear to an end at last.'

The chapter closes with Aragorn returning, kept from the banquet due to a desire for information from Elrond's sons,And what information, I should like to know, was so important to him that he was willing to stay away from a banquet where Arwen was present? He could have spoken to the twins later on, but apparently they had something to tell that he must hear at once.
One of the most beautiful and richly-detailed compositions in the trilogy, it speaks of the voyage of Eärendil and his ultimate fate.And it is remarkable that this poem was made by Bilbo. No wonder he was popular among the Elves. :D :p At this incident we also get a glimpse of an average Elf's view of mortals. Lindir and Bilbo have an interesting and humorous conversation:'It is not easy for us to tell the difference between two mortals' said the Elf.
'Nonsense, Lindir,' snorted Bilbo. 'If you can't distinguish between a Man and a Hobbit, your judgement is poorer than I imagined. They're as different as peas and apples.'
'Maybe. To sheep other sheep no doubt appear different,' laughed Lindir. `Or to shepherds. But Mortals have not been our study. We have other business.'Ahh, those Elves! Why so little interest in other people? :( Finrod was the only one ...

[Earniel]

And it is remarkable that this poem was made by Bilbo. No wonder he was popular among the Elves. :D :p At this incident we also get a glimpse of an average Elf's view of mortals. Lindir and Bilbo have an interesting and humorous conversation:
That conversation is my favorite part in the whole chapter (like BoP, this is one of my least favorite chapters :o ) The way Tolkien's Elves are so lighthearted and funny! It is something I haven't seen any other writer capture. One way they're powerful and wise, and the very next moment they're laughing and joking. It's a nice duality.

[brownjenkins]

During this bit it becomes clear that Aragorn is no ordinary man and he has some unique and important lineage.

that's a good point too... it's easy to forget (when you've read the books a million times) how shady aragorn (strider) is up until this point

[Artanis]

In this chapter there are so many small hints of what is to come later on:
The green stone that Aragorn felt important should be in Bilbo's poem about Eärendil, I suppose that was the Elessar.
More hints about the Arwen-Aragorn romance.
Gandalf seems to be convinced that Frodo has not finished his task yet.
Arwen's glance to Frodo on the evening of the feast. I wonder if she already then saw him as the only hope she had to marry Aragorn, and looked into his heart.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I thought that the green stone was a Silmaril.

[Nurvingiel]

Excellent summary Brownie! :) (It took me a while to pick up on the capital jokes there ;) ) Capital capitals! :D

Many Meetings
If successful, this would have lead to a state that even Gandalf saw as beyond repair. Yet only the night before, Elrond was able to dislodge this splinter and remove the threat of Frodo 'fading'. A fate which Gandalf is surprised the hobbit was able to hold off for so long. Something he even doubted even a strong warrior among men could have done.

This part makes me wondered why Gandalf chose Frodo as a Ringbearer. Even though circumstance made Frodo the most convenient, Gandalf could have selected someone else, had he felt the need. Did Gandalf just have a good feeling about Frodo, which he doubts in this scene? Or did Gandalf simply not realize the true nature of the Ring until it was too late? Or maybe a combination of these factors.


Of note also is Frodo's statement about how much more terrified he would have been had he known the full implications of what he was facing. There is little doubt that Gandalf held some information back when he spoke of the Ring and the Ringwraiths during 'The Shadow of the Past'. Was he hiding infomation in fear that Frodo would not accept the task, or was there maybe another purpose?

Sometimes there are dangers you are better off not knowing. This comes up later in the book too. However, I think sometimes it's a mistake to hold back information like that. I can't think of a good example at the moment though, unless Gandalf originally didn't mention the Nazgul or Gollum (though he may not have been aware of their true threat and/or existence in Sadow of the Past).


And what of the other kind in the Shire?

I think this refers, at least in part, the the presence of Tom Bombadil, Elves, and other magical people older than the Shire, and living undetected by most of its residents.


This Pip shrugs off as usual wizardly gloom and doom, saying it is much to cheery in Rivendell for such worries. Another expression of a 'timelessness' Bilbo later mentions. Is this a quality of all elvish abodes?

I always assumed the dwelling of people who regard 144 years the way mortals do 1 year would have a timeless quality.


At the sound of bells, they leave for a banquet where we get some marvelous descriptions of Glorfindel, Gandalf and master Elrond in their finest. We also see Arwen for the first time, who's beauty is likened to Lúthien, the fairest elvenkind has ever known. Frodo is seated next to Glóin of 'there and back again' fame, and we hear a few more hints of stories to come concerning Balin and events at The Lonely Mountain.[/b]
I really enjoyed the connection to the Hobbit here, which has implications for Legolas and Gimli later.


Is there any validity to this musing, or may Gandalf have had other reasons for leaving the Ring in the Shire, which he may not have positively identified, but certainly had concerns about?
Maybe due to those unseen powers, Gandalf felt that it was as safe there as anywhere, at least for a time. Also, Gandalf later points out that Sauron had little knowledge of the Shire. All he had was what he got from torturing poor old Gollum.


More than anything so far in this rereading, this passage brought me back to my first experience with the Lord of the Rings. It was sometime around 1977, give or take. Having read the Silmarillion and most of the HoME books now, Bilbo's tune is just a snippit of the vast history of the First Age. But back then, when it was all so new, there was so much mystery behind this song and many of the references in this chapter and the one to come. I remember thinking, before I even had the benefit of the appendices behind me, who was this Eärendil and why was it so bold of Bilbo to sing about him in the House of Elrond? This sense of layers and deeper lore is why, to this day, I still suggest new readers follow Tolkien's works by publication as opposed to chronology. It makes the uncovering of the stories within the Silmarillion and those that follow all the more anticipated and wonderful.

The richness and detail in Tolkien's works is fascinating to uncover, I agree. Having only read the Sil once since my rereadings of LOTR, there is still a great deal of mystery surrounding this song. I love Aragorn's line about Bilbo having "the cheek to compose verses of Eärandil in the house of Elrond" or something like that. This shows that Aragorn is humorous too, not just the hard-core Ranger we met in Bree. Maybe he only really felt like he could relax in Rivendell (and later Lothlorien), which is most likely very wise.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

This part makes me wondered why Gandalf chose Frodo as a Ringbearer. Even though circumstance made Frodo the most convenient, Gandalf could have selected someone else, had he felt the need. Did Gandalf just have a good feeling about Frodo, which he doubts in this scene? Or did Gandalf simply not realize the true nature of the Ring until it was too late? Or maybe a combination of these factors.

I think that Gandalf knew the true nature of the Ring better than any (with the possible exception of Elrond and Galadriel). He also knew an awful lot about hobbits, more perhaps than they knew about themselves. This could link in with the magic of another sort n the Shire. Maybe that could mean the hobbits themselves.

[Valandil]

Many Meetings
...He also says 'There is power, too, of another kind in the Shire.' What do you feel is this power of the spirit among the elves? And what of the other kind in the Shire?


Well... don't want to give away the ending ( :p ;) ), but their love for the Shire sure kept Frodo and Sam going at later crucial moments - didn't it. I think that's sufficient enough. As their 'home' - it had power to inspire them to try and keep it safe.

[Artanis]

I thought that the green stone was a Silmaril.No, if you read the poem carefully you will see that there are an emerald, and a Silmaril. :)

[Rían]

This part makes me wondered why Gandalf chose Frodo as a Ringbearer. Even though circumstance made Frodo the most convenient, Gandalf could have selected someone else, had he felt the need. Did Gandalf just have a good feeling about Frodo, which he doubts in this scene? Where's that bit about how Gandalf thought Frodo was the best hobbit in the Shire? Is that in LOTR, or somewhere else?

Maybe he only really felt like he could relax in Rivendell (and later Lothlorien), which is most likely very wise.Yes, I got the feeling those were the only 2 places that Aragorn felt (and rightly) that he could relax. Poor guy! I hope Arwen made it worth it for him :)

Arty - Thanks for the Legolas quote - I had forgotten that one! :)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Where's that bit about how Gandalf thought Frodo was the best hobbit in the Shire? Is that in LOTR, or somewhere else?

Thats in The BArrow Downs I think when it looks like Frodo is going to die and Sam, Merry and Pippin have been captured.

No, if you read the poem carefully you will see that there are an emerald, and a Silmaril.

Well I don't think that it was an Elessar.

[The Gaffer]

Very good job, BJ :) Sorry I've not been around to contribute more to the discussion.
Many Meetings
The wizard tells Frodo how the ring, when worn, places him half within the world of the wraiths. An unseen world which we learn that elves such as Glorfindel, who have seen the Blessed Realm, have a special awareness of. This would seem to point to the world of the spirit, or 'the soul'. Everpresent, yet unfathomable to the common man, hobbit, or even elf. A place where the Elf-lord shines like a star.
More than awareness; there's the line in this chapter:
They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and Unseen they have great power.
What's the relation here with "fire of their spirit" that SGH quoted in this thread (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?p=386275#post386275)?

I remember thinking, before I even had the benefit of the appendices behind me, who was this Eärendil and why was it so bold of Bilbo to sing about him in the House of Elrond? This sense of layers and deeper lore is why, to this day, I still suggest new readers follow Tolkien's works by publication as opposed to chronology. It makes the uncovering of the stories within the Silmarillion and those that follow all the more anticipated and wonderful.
You hit the nail on the head. Earendil crops up in Lorien and Shelob's Lair, adding a bit more detail and providing continuity with the histories. Then, later, you read about him in the Sil in the context of the whole First Age, and re-reading these chapters of LOTR brings many more layers of meaning.

[Nurvingiel]

What's the relation here with "fire of their spirit" that SGH quoted in this thread (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?p=386275#post386275)?
Is this the fire like 'the fire of Feanor's spirit, that he was kind of famour for?

You hit the nail on the head. Earendil crops up in Lorien and Shelob's Lair, adding a bit more detail and providing continuity with the histories. Then, later, you read about him in the Sil in the context of the whole First Age, and re-reading these chapters of LOTR brings many more layers of meaning.
Yeah, and how Frodo is inspired to say (oh my goodness, can't remember) Gilthalion A Erendil ... in the prison at the top of the orcs watchtower in Mordor.

EDIT: I just thought of another aspect of this chapter. (I mean, this is the one with the Council of Elrond right?)

Legolas and Gimli did not start out of friends, partly due to how Gloin (Gimli's father) was treated in Thranduil's prison. Do you think Gloin harboured any resentment? I don't think he did after all that time, but if he did, do you think he dealt with it at Rivendell? Would Elrond have been involved, as he is very wise?
I'm also wondering, what was discussed outside of what we "saw" at the Council (if you take my meaning). Did Boromir and Aragorn talk more, etc. ?

[The Gaffer]

As for Gloin, we get a clue as to his feelings in the next chapter when he hears that the Elves felt sorry for Gollum being cooped up and let him out to climb trees.

EDIT *checks thread title * I think we're still on Many Meetings.

[Nurvingiel]

As for Gloin, we get a clue as to his feelings in the next chapter when he hears that the Elves felt sorry for Gollum being cooped up and let him out to climb trees.

EDIT *checks thread title * I think we're still on Many Meetings.
Oh, erm... the Council of Elrond has it's own chapter..? Oops, ignore my out of place comment, I'll move it when the next chapter comes up. :o

[The Gaffer]

Is this the fire like 'the fire of Feanor's spirit, that he was kind of famour for?
Good question; I'm not sure. Feänor's spirit was supposed to burn brightest of all the Elves, though whether this was metaphorically or literally I couldn't say.

I recall a thread from some time ago (>1 yr) about "feä" (but searching for feä doesn't help because it's too short, so forgive me for not finding it), which is the "spirit" of elves, and which eventually consumes their material bodies so that, in Middle-Earth, they become pure spirit with no material bodies, as SGH points out in that quote.

What I'm wondering is whether it is the "feä" that gives Glorfindel that dual existence.

Gandalf suggests that it was because he had been to the Blessed Realm. So, in theory, Elrond, Arwen, Celeborn etc would not have the dual existence. That would imply that it's something other than feä, which all elves have. It would also give us another reason to be pedantic about the movie, since Arwen is portrayed in the Glorfindel manner when Frodo is fading towards wraithdom. ;)

What do you think?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yeah, and how Frodo is inspired to say (oh my goodness, can't remember) Gilthalion A Erendil ... in the prison at the top of the orcs watchtower in Mordor.
I think it was 'Aiya Earendil elenion ancalima" and Sam shouted "Gilthoniel A Elbereth"

[Rían]

I recall a thread from some time ago (>1 yr) about "feä" (but searching for feä doesn't help because it's too short, so forgive me for not finding it), which is the "spirit" of elves, and which eventually consumes their material bodies so that, in Middle-Earth, they become pure spirit with no material bodies, as SGH points out in that quote. I think that's in HOME 10, Morgoth's Ring.

Let's petition the Powers that Be to change the search limit back to 3 characters!!!!! SGH & Co., would that be OK? There are many times I've wanted to search for rather unique 3-character words and it would have been helpful.

It would also give us another reason to be pedantic about the movie... LOL!

[Fat middle]

I think that's in HOME 10, Morgoth's Ring.

Let's petition the Powers that Be to change the search limit back to 3 characters!!!!! SGH & Co., would that be OK? There are many times I've wanted to search for rather unique 3-character words and it would have been helpful.

LOL!
A three characters search engine would make the database too large...

also, if you want to search for feä, probably you can find it using hroa as key ;)

[Nurvingiel]

I think it was 'Aiya Earendil elenion ancalima" and Sam shouted "Gilthoniel A Elbereth"
:o that's it :p
And Sam's my favourite character! Thanks.

Hey, what's 'pedantic'? I detect a clever, wry comment, if only I could understand. :D

[Artanis]

What I'm wondering is whether it is the "feä" that gives Glorfindel that dual existence.

Gandalf suggests that it was because he had been to the Blessed Realm. So, in theory, Elrond, Arwen, Celeborn etc would not have the dual existence. That would imply that it's something other than feä, which all elves have.Yes, I think it is the fëa (spirit) of Glorfindel that makes him more powerful than most of the other Elves in Imladris, and able to ride out openly against the Black Riders. The Elves who had been in the Blessed Realm, had lived among the Ainur and had seen the light of the two trees had got their fëar strenghtened. But I do not think Gandalf was wording himself correctly when he said that "those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds" because as you said, all Elves have a fëa. All Men have a fëa too. So all Elves and Men have this dual existence. The difference between Glorfindel and most of the remaining Elves (and Men!) in Middle Earth is that his fëa was strong enough to face the threat from the Nazgûl.

[The Gaffer]

:o that's it :p
And Sam's my favourite character! Thanks.

Hey, what's 'pedantic'? I detect a clever, wry comment, if only I could understand. :D
Mine too, btw.

Pedantic is where you pick holes in something to an unnecessarily tedious extent. Like "Arwen wouldn't glow like that in Frodo's vision because she hadn't been to the Blessed Realm". Or even taking issue with the word "awareness" like I just did. :rolleyes:

Hoom hom. What you say makes sense, as usual, Artanis. That stuff about fea is coming back to me a bit: men are only dimly aware of it, and hence they are terrified of the Nazgul. So maybe we need another word for Glorfindel other than "awareness" or "existing in both worlds".

I also recall that the orcs refer to some fate-worse-than-death of being stripped bare "on the other side" and left to squirm before the Eye. Do you think this is the same "other side"? Is the curtain in Frodo's dream in Tom Bombadil's house supposed to represent a transition through to the "other side"?

[Nurvingiel]

Pedantic is where you pick holes in something to an unnecessarily tedious extent. Like "Arwen wouldn't glow like that in Frodo's vision because she hadn't been to the Blessed Realm". Or even taking issue with the word "awareness" like I just did. :rolleyes:
Lol! :D Being pedantic is funny sometimes (especially when it involves movie-Arwen bwahahaha :evil: )

Hoom hom. What you say makes sense, as usual, Artanis. That stuff about fea is coming back to me a bit: men are only dimly aware of it, and hence they are terrified of the Nazgul. So maybe we need another word for Glorfindel other than "awareness" or "existing in both worlds".

What do you mean by awareness? Do you mean being aware of the blessed realm after having been there? Are you implying that it's like a building no one can find unless they've been shown it, or is that why you took issue with the word?

I also recall that the orcs refer to some fate-worse-than-death of being stripped bare "on the other side" and left to squirm before the Eye. Do you think this is the same "other side"? Is the curtain in Frodo's dream in Tom Bombadil's house supposed to represent a transition through to the "other side"?
*ponders* That makes you wonder about the nature of Tom Bombadil, but I won't open up that debate in here.
I think this is certainly possible. What, in that case, was the significance of the tower dream Frodo had there? (The one with the sea.) (If we're allowed to discuss old chapters.)

[The Gaffer]

What do you mean by awareness? Do you mean being aware of the blessed realm after having been there? Are you implying that it's like a building no one can find unless they've been shown it, or is that why you took issue with the word?
Er * looks back through the thread *

I was wanting to distinguish between being aware of something and actually having a dual existence. The discussion suggests that men and elves both have this dual existence but perhaps with men it's weaker. Maybe that's why their awareness of it is like your building scenario in that they don't really know it.

*ponders* That makes you wonder about the nature of Tom Bombadil, but I won't open up that debate in here.
I think this is certainly possible. What, in that case, was the significance of the tower dream Frodo had there? (The one with the sea.) (If we're allowed to discuss old chapters.)
Figuratively, I think he's a "gatekeeper" type character.

There's a clear change in writing style when the hobbits enter his world, and it leads them into an awareness of this (or a) spiritual world. I think Frodo's vision/dream in Tom's house happens for that reason: as his introduction.

These sorts of references are, in Tom's dialogue, mixed in with earthy and instinctual type things (such as how if the ponies smell danger, they run the right way). I wonder if JRRT's intention was to position things like "instinct", "insight" and "foresight" as aspects of the spiritual world.

It's interesting, then, that Sam doesn't have any dream.

[brownjenkins]

i always saw frodo's dream as a glimpse to the end of the novel... the ultimate reality that in the end he'd be forced to leave middle earth to find peace

which kind of fits in with my view of tom bombadil... i always saw him as the 'moral' of the story... the only character completely content with himself and his place in the world... thus uneffected by the ring and any of the other 'evils' (or 'goods') of the world

the vision in tom's house was a sign from tom to frodo that in the end he too might find this contentment

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

At first I thought it was something to do with Frodo's path crossing that of the elves, but when I reread it I noticed the link with the end.

[The Gaffer]

Yes, I think that's definitely the case.

I wondered if Sam could also fit into this category (i.e. of contented characters), and that was why he didn't have a dream. Basically, Sam inherits what Frodo has to sacrifice.

Just to pick up on another couple of points:
Is there any validity to this musing, or may Gandalf have had other reasons for leaving the Ring in the Shire, which he may not have positively identified, but certainly had concerns about?
Given the dangers, it's hard to believe that he would risk it if he genuinely suspected that this was the One Ring. I don't think there's a subtle subtext here, just some inconsistency in the story. In Shadow of the Past Gandalf states that he knew it was a Great Ring right from the outset, but didn't know which one. In the next chapter, we find out that he must have known that it couldn't have been one of the Three, Seven or Nine.

Other possibilities include his concern for Bilbo, and the importance (for Bilbo) that he gave up the Ring willingly). We also find out in this chapter why he didn't reveal the Ring's existence to Saruman. Perhaps he thought the Ring was safer in the Shire than sitting on a table at the White Council with Saruman eyeing it.

But we can also make sense of this if we realise that "the tale grew in the telling" and therefore contains some inconsistencies. :eek:

a shadow-vision of an almost gollum-like appearance comes over Bilbo
A very significant event. All at once, Frodo realises what the Ring can really do to those who carry it and realises that nothing can ever be the same. It also sets the scene for his subsequent connection with Gollum. As a reader, you are also jerked back to reality and you know that getting to Rivendell was no ending: the story is only just beginning.

[Nurvingiel]

Given the dangers, it's hard to believe that he would risk it if he genuinely suspected that this was the One Ring. I don't think there's a subtle subtext here, just some inconsistency in the story. In Shadow of the Past Gandalf states that he knew it was a Great Ring right from the outset, but didn't know which one. In the next chapter, we find out that he must have known that it couldn't have been one of the Three, Seven or Nine.
Well, obviously he knew it wasn't one of the Three or the Nine. But maybe he wasn't 100% sure that all the Seven were lost or destroyed, and he was double-checking. In addition to his other tasks, that would have taken a while. When he knew the truth, he was then sure Bilbo had the One Ring. Maybe he was only sure that Thrain lost the last of the Seven in the dungeons of Dol Guldor (sp?), and that was when the White Council attacked (after many delays by Saruman). So if this was the case, it wouldn't be an inconsistency right? Because IIRC, Gandalf goes to the Shire only shortly after the attack on Dol Guldor.

[Valandil]

Well, obviously he knew it wasn't one of the Three or the Nine. But maybe he wasn't 100% sure that all the Seven were lost or destroyed, and he was double-checking. In addition to his other tasks, that would have taken a while. When he knew the truth, he was then sure Bilbo had the One Ring. Maybe he was only sure that Thrain lost the last of the Seven in the dungeons of Dol Guldor (sp?), and that was when the White Council attacked (after many delays by Saruman). So if this was the case, it wouldn't be an inconsistency right? Because IIRC, Gandalf goes to the Shire only shortly after the attack on Dol Guldor.

But I thought the attack on Dol Guldor was way back in 2941... while Bilbo and the Dwarves were going through Mirkwood and on up to Erebor. And Gandalf's only encounter with Thrain was 100 years before that... THAT was when he snuck into the place and found Thrain in a dungeon there.

Still though... perhaps he had to check on some of the other Seven... and get back to Elrond and Galadriel ... ("Are you SURE that's how many there were???" :confused: ) :p ;)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

It couldn't have been one of the seven, the three or the nine. In the Shadow of the Past or the Council of Elrond, Gandalf says the others all had a specific gem but not so the One.

[The Gaffer]

In addition to his other tasks,
What was more important than saving ME from eternal darkness? Taking his robe to the dry cleaners? :D

[Durin1]

But Gandalf only entered into Dol Guldur (in disguise) to find out clearly who was residing there. It was initially believed that a Ringwraith had (again) taken up a position there.

Therefore it was chance that Gandalf met Thrain there and chance that Thrain, in his dying state, mentions something about how the "greatest of the Seven has been taken" [paraphrased].

It is important to remember that up until then, Gandalf had no reason to go into ring-lore: that was Saruman's speciality. Therefore there was no incentive for him to learn any more about the Rings of Power: He would know about the 3 and the 9; he believed that the One had been lost.. so there was no significance, at this stage, about the Necromancer having captured Thrain's ring. It is only in 2941 when he finds Bilbo getting up to tricks with a golden ring that he slowly begins to suspect more and researches for himself.

[Nurvingiel]

What was more important than saving ME from eternal darkness? Taking his robe to the dry cleaners? :D
Lol, maybe he was Gandalf the Grey for a reason. I meant other ME saving tasks, before he knew what the Ring was. :D

Therefore it was chance that Gandalf met Thrain there and chance that Thrain, in his dying state, mentions something about how the "greatest of the Seven has been taken" [paraphrased].
I think you're right about that, and about Ring-lore. I bet Saruman would have actively (but subtly) discouraged Gandalf from looking into it too, as he was becoming more corrupted. Remember how he delayed in attacking Dol Guldur. Gandalf reflects later that he had been stalling (paraphrase).

[The Wizard from Milan]

My question
Why was Bilbo not present at the banquet? Bilbo himself gives a justification (I can't remember it, but that is not my question). My question is: why Tolkien decides not have Bilbo at the banquet?

[Earniel]

My answer would be that Tolkien wanted to have the reunion of Frodo and Bilbo at a better time. On the banquet he had other things he wanted to give some lime light, like the conversation between Gloin and Frodo. If Bilbo had been at the banquet such events would have taken a back seat to Frodo seeing Bilbo again. It also spreads the different events better storywise. The banquet scene would have been overloaded with things that had to happen there otherwise.

Oh and welcome to the Entmoot! :)

[Durin1]

In the Hall of Fire, Bilbo says of himself that he doesn't go in much go to banquets and other things these days. I think it is just Tolkien showing the reader that Bilbo is getting old.