Fingon the valiant?

[Artanis]

Any idea why Fingon was called 'The valiant' in Valinor? Was there any dangerous activities in the Blessed Realm, where there was no death among the Elves?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Any idea why Fingon was called 'The valiant' in Valinor? Was there any dangerous activities in the Blessed Realm, where there was no death among the Elves?That's a good question. I could see him being called that once they were in Beleriand. Perhaps it was given to him in Valinor because of the stand he took in the persuit of Morgoth, and toward Feanor. I would say it could have had something to do with his leardership in crossing the ice, but Maedhros referred to him as the "Valiant" when asking Feanor about the ships returning, which implies that Fingon was called the "Valiant" long before that. Then perhaps there were some unspoken deeds during the Darkening of Valinor or something. :confused:

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

And it can't have been just after the awakening of the elves as seen as Maedhros wasn't born until they got to Valinor.

[Lefty Scaevola]

And it can't have been just after the awakening of the elves as seen as Maedhros wasn't born until they got to Valinor.The most likely contexts for valiant in Aman would be hunting and mountain adventuring. Perhaps even a few lurking mosters such a Shelob, but lesser, to be dispatched around the periphery.

[Radagast The Brown]

It was said about Celegorm that he went hunting with teh group of Orome. That's where he got Huan of Valinor.. maybe Fingon went on hunts too, and there he got his name, like Lefty said.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Maybe he just got 500 posts and a custom title. :D

[Attalus]

Maybe he just got 500 posts and a custom title. :DThat would make him Fingon the Spammer. ;)

[Artanis]

Maybe he just got 500 posts and a custom title. :DHee-hee. :D

Another explanation I've heard elsewhere is that Fingon and his mate Maedhros were enjoying cliff-diving, and that Fingon always jumped from incredible heights at the most dangerous spots. :)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Maybe he told Feanor that the SIlmarils were rubbish.

[Attalus]

Maybe he told Feanor that the SIlmarils were rubbish.Naw, just in poor taste. "Fëanoro, that headband that you wear to the festivals with all three Silmarils on it make you look like a mithril miner. How about cutting it down to one?" :D

[Telumehtar]

I've always imagined that Fingon picked up this title during some kind of hunting incident, something not too dissimilar to the scene in La Reine Margot, where Henri of Navarre leaps to the aid of the king - who was in imminent danger of being skewered by a wild boar - and takes the creature down with nothing but a dagger. A more romantic idea would be Fingon saving Maedhros from this fate - though that might be stretching the point a little.

I've heard the cliff-diving idea too, there is a picture on Elfwood showing this scene isn't there? Done by the same artist who drew that amazing picture of Fëanor, Nerdanel, and the brats? I like the idea, especially when put in the context of her artwork. Very cool.

[Artanis]

I've heard the cliff-diving idea too, there is a picture on Elfwood showing this scene isn't there? Done by the same artist who drew that amazing picture of Fëanor, Nerdanel, and the brats? I like the idea, especially when put in the context of her artwork. Very cool.Yeah, that's where I got it from. :) The picture of the homely Fëanorean scene is sweet. :D

Welcome, btw. :)

[Kirinki54]

A more romantic idea would be Fingon saving Maedhros from this fate - though that might be stretching the point a little.


I think you a right here. If that was not a valiant deed, than what was?

There is the problem of Maedhros naming Fingon "valiant" before that (as mentioned bySGH), but I can see at least two possible explanations.

The history as depicted in The Sil was supposedly handed down by Elves to Men, and interpreted in the process. It is possible that the notion of Fingon naming Fingon valiant after the Kin-slaying was put in incorrectly.

The other is that Fingon was named valiant even in Valinor, but even without killings and death there, he might well have distinguished himself as a brave person. Or reknowned for his strength:


val·iant ( P ) Pronunciation Key (vlynt)
adj.
Possessing valor; brave.
Marked by or done with valor. See Synonyms at brave.

n.
A brave person.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Middle English, from Old French vaillant, from Latin valns, valent- present participle of valre, to be strong. See wal- in Indo-European Roots.]
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valian·cy or valiance or valiant·ness n.
valiant·ly adv.



valiant

\Val"iant\, a. [OE. valiant, F. vaillant, OF. vaillant, valant, originally p. pr. of OF. & F. valoir to be worth, L. valere to be strong. See Wield, and cf. Avail, Convalesce, Equivalent, Prevail, Valid.] 1. Vigorous in body; strong; powerful; as, a valiant fencer. [Obs.] --Walton.

2. Intrepid in danger; courageous; brave.

A valiant and most expert gentleman. --Shak.

And Saul said to David . . . be thou valiant for me, and fight the Lord's battles. --1 Sam. xviii. 17.

3. Performed with valor or bravery; heroic. ``Thou bearest the highest name for valiant acts.'' --Milton.

[The saints] have made such valiant confessions. --J. H. Newman. -- Val\"iant*ly, adv. -- Val\"iant*ness, {n}.


Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.


valiant

adj : having or showing valor; "a valiant attempt to prevent the hijack"; "a valiant soldier" [syn: valorous]

[Durin1]

I just remembered something from the HoMe series about Galadriel and her "other" names. It is stated (in Customs of the Eldar, I think) that from an early age Elves were given their "true" names but also a surname according to some premonition, of sorts, most especially given by the mother. Perhaps when he was born Fingon was given the name "valiant" to denote some sort of "quality" within him that was identified early in childhood, or even at birth?

[Durin1]

I remember too that Elves with "gon" had their names derived from the original Kane which apparently means "valiant".

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

so sort of finvaliant the valiant? :D gets a bit confusing

[Artanis]

I just remembered something from the HoMe series about Galadriel and her "other" names. It is stated (in Customs of the Eldar, I think) that from an early age Elves were given their "true" names but also a surname according to some premonition, of sorts, most especially given by the mother. Perhaps when he was born Fingon was given the name "valiant" to denote some sort of "quality" within him that was identified early in childhood, or even at birth?That's a good suggestion Durin1! It is true that the Elves had at least two names, one given from their father, and one from their mother. Tolkien states that Findekáno (Fingon), Turukáno (Turgon), Írissë (Aredhel) and Arakáno (Argon) were probably father-names, and I don't think their mother-names are known.
I remember too that Elves with "gon" had their names derived from the original Kane which apparently means "valiant".I think you're wrong here. I'm pretty sure that "gon" is a Sindarized form of the Quenya "kano", which means "commander". Maglor's father-name was Kanafinwë, and here "kano" means "strong voice" or "commanding".

[Durin1]

I think you're wrong here. I'm pretty sure that "gon" is a Sindarized form of the Quenya "kano", which means "commander". Maglor's father-name was Kanafinwë, and here "kano" means "strong voice" or "commanding".

Artanis, although you are correct to point out that "kano" is more clearly interpreted as "commander/commanding", I would argue that it could also denote as valiant in a generalised sense (as many of Tolkien's words do).

...although i'll stand corrected if I am totally wrong! ;)

[Artanis]

Artanis, although you are correct to point out that "kano" is more clearly interpreted as "commander/commanding", I would argue that it could also denote as valiant in a generalised sense (as many of Tolkien's words do).

...although i'll stand corrected if I am totally wrong! ;)Well I'm no Quenya expert so what you say may be perfectly valid. :)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Maybe some vailent acts during the firts kinslaying.

[Elemmírë]

Artanis, although you are correct to point out that "kano" is more clearly interpreted as "commander/commanding", I would argue that it could also denote as valiant in a generalised sense (as many of Tolkien's words do).

...although i'll stand corrected if I am totally wrong! ;)

But Turgon was Turukano... and I don't remember hearing him referred to as "the Valiant"

Maybe some vailent acts during the firts kinslaying.

*shudders* That is an interpretation...

My thoughts on the matter (and I definitely could be wrong here) are that he was not called "Fingon the Valiant" in Valinor. First of all, Fingon wasn't a name he used until coming to Beleriand, so the use of the Sindarised forms of the names in the first part of the Silmarillion is obviously something that would have been added afterwards. Is it so impossible that the title was added afterwards as well, in response to deeds he did not yet do (such as the rescue of Maedhros) that were, all the same, known to whoever was recounting the story?

[Pytt]

I've heard the cliff-diving idea too, there is a picture on Elfwood showing this scene isn't there? Done by the same artist who drew that amazing picture of Fëanor, Nerdanel, and the brats? I like the idea, especially when put in the context of her artwork. Very cool.

I have heard about the cliff diving idea before, but I haven't seen the picture mentioned. anyone knows where to find it?

it is so long since I have read the Sil, so I don't remember Fingon, and not what he did. :( but the idea of some great hunting don't seem so bad.

Edit.

I didn't remember if he got to Beleriand, or not. but when seeing Elemmires post, I think maybe she is right. that he got the name 'valiant' after comeing to Beleriand, rather than earn it in Valinor. but I am a bit tempted about the cliffdiving idea also.

[Elemmírë]

A yes, another one of Jenny Dolfen's pictures, right here (http://www.deviantart.com/view/4841814/) if no-one has given the link before. By the way, is there any real evidence for that, or is it just a random theory created by the artist? Anyone know?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I didn't remember if he got to Beleriand, or not. but when seeing Elemmires post, I think maybe she is right. that he got the name 'valiant' after comeing to Beleriand, rather than earn it in Valinor. but I am a bit tempted about the cliffdiving idea also.
But he was called that by Meadhros before he enter Beleriand.

[Artanis]

But he was called that by Meadhros before he enter Beleriand.I think you have missed Elemmire's point. If I understand her right, she thinks that the narrator of the story that we know as the Quenta Silmarillion did not give us the exact words of Maedhros, because at that time he would obviously not have used the Sindarin name "Fingon", he would have used the Quenya "Findekáno". And therefore, the title "valiant" may have been an invention of the narrator too, since the title or nickname often is mentioned in connection with the name of a person, as in Beren Camlost or Erchamion, Beleg Cuthalion, Morwen Eledhwen, Idril Celebrindal, Húrin Thalion. This is a perfectly valid theory, though I like Durin's suggestion better. :)

A yes, another one of Jenny Dolfen's pictures, right here if no-one has given the link before. By the way, is there any real evidence for that, or is it just a random theory created by the artist? Anyone know?There's no textual evidence for Dolfen's idea. We do know from the description of Galadriel in Valinor that she soon became "a match for the athletes of the Eldar", so they did engage in some form of sport. But from there to cliff-diving ... well, well. :p

[Elemmírë]

Yes, Artanis. That's what I was trying to say. :)

I just remembered something from the HoMe series about Galadriel and her "other" names. It is stated (in Customs of the Eldar, I think) that from an early age Elves were given their "true" names but also a surname according to some premonition, of sorts, most especially given by the mother. Perhaps when he was born Fingon was given the name "valiant" to denote some sort of "quality" within him that was identified early in childhood, or even at birth?

Hm. That's a good one too. :D

I personally think it more likely that Findekáno was the father name... My only support for this, however, is that almost all of their father names had some version of the name Finwë in it (it seems that someone was trying to prove something)...

For example, we know that Fëanor gave (I think) all of his sons names like Nelyafinwë and Curufinwë... And then there's Findaráto, which is a father name...

It's pure conjecture, but I'd guess that Findekáno was the father name.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think you have missed Elemmire's point. If I understand her right, she thinks that the narrator of the story that we know as the Quenta Silmarillion did not give us the exact words of Maedhros, because at that time he would obviously not have used the Sindarin name "Fingon", he would have used the Quenya "Findekáno". And therefore, the title "valiant" may have been an invention of the narrator too, since the title or nickname often is mentioned in connection with the name of a person, as in Beren Camlost or Erchamion, Beleg Cuthalion, Morwen Eledhwen, Idril Celebrindal, Húrin Thalion. This is a perfectly valid theory, though I like Durin's suggestion better. :)
That statement was direct at Pytt.

Yet I don't think that Tolkien wrote the Sil like that, as he did with the hobbit.
Does it not say that Fingon was at the head of Fingolfin's people during the kinslaying, so it could be that he hepled Meadhros out of a tight situation.

[Elemmírë]

Of the Flight of the Noldor:
...but the vanguard of the Noldor were succoured by Fingon with the foremost of the host of Fingolfin, who coming up found a battle joined and their own kin falling, and rushed in before they knew rightly the cause of the quarrel...

Yes, TD. You are correct. :)

Though there is a difference, in my mind, between Maedhros considering Fingon valiant and the rest of the Noldor believing it as well... :D

...And somehow I doubt that Maedhros was the one who recounted the tales of the First Age... ;)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Well where does it say that the Noldor didn't regard Fingon as valient?

[Elemmírë]

Ah. Now you are misunderstanding me.

As far as I know, the Noldor all do regard him as valiant. However, I don't know how many, other than the Fëanorians, would consider him valiant for kinslaying. ;)

This is why I believe it was most likely not at Alqualondë where he earned the title. :p

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Although it doesn't say they didn't regard him as valient, it never says that they did. If only Meadhros says it at that time then maybe the Noldor did or didn't know him as that.

[Elemmírë]

Now I'm confused.

Are you trying to argue that Fingon was called the Valiant simply because Maedhros considered him valiant?

I don't think that argument is very stable... but I also don't think it's what you were trying to say. :)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

It is, but is Fingon called 'the valient' anywhere else? I don't think he is but if I'm wrong then I'm sorry. But Maedhros referred to Fingon as 'the valiant' shortly after Fingon had saved Maedhros, his brothers and his father.

[Elemmírë]

Now I understand.

OK. I've looked up the name Fingon in the index (where he is called The Valiant as well ;) ) and there are more references than solely when Maedhros calles him "Fingon the valiant."

Then Fingon the valiant, son of Fingolfin, resolved to heal the feud that divided the Noldor...

(Concerning his rescue of Maedhros)

Actually... I think that is the only other reference, unless I missed one... :)

*leafing through text again for references to Fingon and "valiant"*

Slightly OT... hey! How did Maeglin get to be called "valiant" at any part of the Silm... :mad:

[Artanis]

Findekáno Astaldo Ñolofinwion! :D
Slightly OT... hey! How did Maeglin get to be called "valiant" at any part of the Silm... :mad:Well, he was valiant. Fell and fearless in battle, it says too. He fought beside Turgon in the Nirnaeth. :)

[Elemmírë]

Findekáno Astaldo Ñolofinwion! :D

So I was right! Hm. So Astaldo is his mother name? That means Valiant, right? My dictionary says so. That gives Durin's theory more weight.

Well, he was valiant. Fell and fearless in battle, it says too. He fought beside Turgon in the Nirnaeth. :)

*grudgingly*

I can't gainsay that...

But we all know how very valiant he was in front of Morgoth...

[Artanis]

So Astaldo is his mother name?No no! :p There is no evidence for that. But it sounds good, doesn't it? :D

[Elemmírë]

Very good. :D

But stop confusing me... :mad: ;)

Do you speak Quenya, btw? You sure like the names. :D :)

In my...20 days here :o , I don't think I've "spoken" with you much yet... ;)

[Pytt]

But he was called that by Meadhros before he enter Beleriand.

Ok, as I have said before it's realy a long time since I've read the Sils.