The Riddle of Tom Bombadil

[trolls' bane]

I checked for another thread on this, but all I could find was this (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=10004&highlight=riddle+bombadil) thread.

Anyway, it says it all here. (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/t/tombombadil.html) Let me know if it doesn't work or it only shows a picture. I was thinking about this some months ago when I read it, and I thought about some of the theories (well, I actually read only the part titled "Tom Bombadil Within Tolkein's Cosmology"). Especially the one: "Was Tom Bombadil Illuvatar Himself?"
Though he said he was here before the dark lord came (something like that), and as the article states Morgoth was the first of the Valar or any of the powers in Arda, or Ea (how do you people put the accent marks and like symbols on specific letters, anyway?), it doesn't mean he was there before Morgoth came the first time, does it? Because if I remember right, in the first chapters of the Silmarillion, at some point he left. Couldn't that mean when he came and ambushed the Valar and Maia on whatever island they lived on in whatever lake, when he cast down the lamps? Or, could it possibly mean when he came back to Middle Earth after his imprisonment in Valinor? The last one I mentioned is least likely (to me) because he seemed more man than elf, and was rather short, while elves are known to be tall.

Comments or theories welcome :).

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

The truth is no one will ever know the identity of Tom Bombadil except for J.R.R. Tolkien. There is only one thing I know for sure, and that is Tom Bombadil's concept came from a doll Tolkiens son had, Tolkien used to tell his son night time stories with the Bombadil doll and make silly rhyms like those in The Lord of the Rings. Other information that isn't known for absolute certainty can be that it is said I think that Ilúvatar never came nor sent any of his likenss into Arda. Finally there will be endless questions of Bombadil like who is the Dark Lord he is talking about, was it Sauron or Morgoth? Both Treebeard and Bombadil claim to be the oldest in Middle-Earth so who really is? Also Bombadil cliams to have come before the Eldar and before Atani. So he could not be Elf, Man, or Dwarf. One theory that has never really been discussed is that Tom is a liar. Perhaps Tom is just dilusional! He did not come before and is not oldest. Perhaps!? Yet we must know he must be something on a higher level of Maia, on level with the Vala or higher due to his resistance to the ring. It didn't effect him in any way and not even a Maia of Manwë, Olórin, could resist the ring! So in the end who, or what, is Tom Bombadil? No one but the late great J.R.R. Tolkien will ever know.*

*Note: Oh and Troll's Bane, there are several ways to create the symboled letters. One way is to use the character map in your programs. Go through Programs->Accesories->System Tools->Character Map.(Windows Only) Another way is to cut/copy and past the letters and words fom other places and websites.

[trolls' bane]

Well, you're probably right about us never knowing who or what Tom Bombadil is. I guess I left out the part where Tolkien said that Tom is an enigma and isn't meant to be understood.


*Note: Oh and Troll's Bane, there are several ways to create the symboled letters. One way is to use the character map in your programs. Go through Programs->Accesories->System Tools->Character Map.(Windows Only) Another way is to cut/copy and past the letters and words fom other places and websites.

Thanks. I thought the answer would include microsoft word. That's how I do it, but it doesn't always paste right. I'll try that later: I'm not on my computer.

[The Gaffer]

One theory that has never really been discussed is that Tom is a liar.
LOL! Excellent. I think this theory is the best fit with the evidence and the simplest explanation for Tom I have ever read. By the principle of Occam's Razor, it must therefore be true :D

[trolls' bane]

I agree!
Uh, Gaffer. While reaching for the post reply button, I accidentally hit the report bad post. I'll tell em if they PM you! Sorry.

[Michael Martinez]

Treebeard never claimed to be the oldest living thing. Gandalf made that assertion:

'Ah! now you are asking much,' said Gandalf. 'The little that I know of his long slow story would make a tale for which we have no time now. Treebeard is Fangorn, the guardian of the forest; he is the oldest of the Ents, the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun upon this Middle-earth....
From "The White Rider" in The Two Towers

Gandalf is hardly a source of infallible information. After all, he was betrayed by Saruman and did not know there was a Balrog in Moria. He also points to limits on his knowledge in other cases.

People make too much of Gandalf's remark. For example, Aragorn says:

Then Aragorn cried: ‘Yé! utúvienyes! I have found it! Lo! here is a scion of the Eldest of Trees! But how comes it here? For it is not itself yet seven years old.’
From "The Steward and the King" in The Return of the King


Now, this is absolute balderdash. Anyone who has read The Silmarillion knows there were other trees before the Two Trees, even in Valinor. Are we to accept without question that no other trees came before Telperion and Laurelin, or that no other trees from their time were still living? Why?

Tolkien's characters employ the word "eldest" in many different ways. The narrative does as well (and nowhere in the narrative will you see any reference to either Treebeard or Bombadil as being older than the other or everything else).

It is not necessary to reconcile the two claims of age because that is not the only apparent conflict in the story. For example, the Prologue concludes with:

...It is said that Celeborn went to dwell there after the departure of Galadriel; but there is no record of the day when at last he sought the Grey Havens, and with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth.

What? Did Treebeard die before Celeborn left Middle-earth? What about Bombadil? Are we to conclude from Gandalf's words and this assertion in the Prologue (from the narrative voice of the author himself) that Bombadil was not a living thing?

Gandalf was a living thing -- he died, and something must first live before it can die. And yet, he was more ancient than either Bombadil or Treebeard. So, should he not have included himself in the category of living things?

It is one to ask who and what Bombadil was but quite another to support the contention that there is any sort of contradiction between Gandalf's remarks about Treebeard and Bombadil's claims regarding himself. Neither Bombadil nor Gandalf is portrayed as all-knowing.

[trolls' bane]

Wow. I think I still underestimate Entmoot. Every thread I start expecting just a few replies with almost no content always seem to end up with really smart posts! :D

[BeardofPants]

Yeah, Michael ought to come with a warning, "Thread-killer". ;)

[SneakyRat]

Siggy, you posted this? Post something like this on our board and I'll let you make me a moderator rather than an admin :D. I never read that, so I will later at home.
The band at this party is not his favorite, so I'll hand the computer to TB (we're at a wildbunch party, and we're both using his computer).

[trolls' bane]

Well, who do you think posted it, sneak :p . Btw, you can continue to call me siggy. I'll post it in the intro thread the reason and who you are talking about.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Gandalf was a living thing -- he died, and something must first live before it can die. And yet, he was more ancient than either Bombadil or Treebeard. So, should he not have included himself in the category of living things?
I think there may be some distinction about whether an Ainur which takes a coporeal form is a "living thing". Is an Ainur in only spirit form a "Living thing". What about when they take a visable but not corporeal "rainiment".
But most certainly, Orloin in his Mithrandir'Gandalf form is far from omniscient. We even have his would when returned in his White form about having rmember much that he had forggoten, and forgotten much that he had known.

[Haradrim]

Also when yiou say oldest from when are you talking. First created. First in Middle Earth? or what. That has to be answered before the oldest title can be given away. I always thought Bombadil was like the spirit of Middle Earth. Maybe nto even a cration of Eru but a creation of ME itself. But whatever. :)

[Lefty Scaevola]

Since the Ainur spirits existed from outside/before the creation of EA and thus the universes time can they be said to have an age or begining with in the cotext of EA? I woul think all the Ainur would be considerered ageless. Of course, we can not be sure that Bombadil is in origin and Ainur, but Olorin/Gandalf is.

[Haradrim]

whats EA?

[trolls' bane]

Ea, the World that Is. You ever read the sil? Well, not so much the Cil, but Ainulindale? :confused: :D

[Haradrim]

nope I just started it

[trolls' bane]

Oh. Well then, you'll read it in a few minutes if you were reading right now. :D

[Lefty Scaevola]

EA = the universe
Arda = the Earth in the published work, but in the unfinished rewrite of the Sil, was going to = the Solar System.

[Attalus]

I never think about Tom. JRRT said he was meant to be an enigma, and that is what he is to me.

[Michael Martinez]

I think there may be some distinction about whether an Ainur which takes a coporeal form is a "living thing". Is an Ainur in only spirit form a "Living thing". What about when they take a visable but not corporeal "rainiment".

A "raiment" IS a physical, corporeal form.

However, given that Ulmo appeared to Tuor as a giant made of seawater, the question of whether he could have been slain in that physical form is an interesting (and unanswerable) one.

I think that, if Ulmo's watery raiment could have been dispersed against his will, then perhaps he would have died.

Death only applies to the physical body. Hence, if a Vala or Maia assumes the body of an Elf and that body is destroyed, then the Vala/Maia dies.

[Michael Martinez]

Since the Ainur spirits existed from outside/before the creation of EA and thus the universes time can they be said to have an age or begining with in the cotext of EA? I woul think all the Ainur would be considerered ageless. Of course, we can not be sure that Bombadil is in origin and Ainur, but Olorin/Gandalf is.

The Ainur could reasonably be said to be older than universe (Ea), since they existed before it did. But time is only meaningful (as we understand it) within the scope of Ea.

So, the Ainur who dwell within Ea are not ageless. They grow older because they are bound to Ea, but their age cannot be fully measured in the framework of Ea's time.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Yes... Because they have an ending, they can be considered to have age, even if they have no begining within the context of the universe. Omega without Alpha. But none from before Ea could be cosidered older/younger than another such who was also in Ea.

[Lenya]

I believe all the Ainur are ageless, as is Ea, for they contain the Light Imperrishable. To me, that sounds very infinate. As with the Earth, the Ainur merely are subject to change, not age.

[Lenya]

I totally agree with Attalus. It is fun to speculate about uncertainties, but we were never meant to know the true identity of Tom. I think it would be boring if Tolkien had all his mysteries solved.

[brownjenkins]

they were "created"... so not quite "ageless"... just because we don't know the definition of pre-universe time, does not mean it does not exist

middle-earth might very well be one in a long line of creations by the wiley eru ;)

[Lenya]

Yes they were created, but after their creation they were given the Light Imperrishable. The way I see it, this 'preserves' them, thus rendering them agesless.

[Michael Martinez]

That would be the Flame Imperishable, which is what Iluvatar used to create everything. But everything ages within Ea. Within that context, all of the Ainur who entered Ea at the beginning of Time would be as old as the universe.

[Lenya]

Sorry about the Light, your right, it's the Flame Imperishable. And I'll accept that they age, just not in the same way as everything else. (Just like Humans and Elves age differently)

[Michael Martinez]

Sorry about the Light, your right, it's the Flame Imperishable. And I'll accept that they age, just not in the same way as everything else. (Just like Humans and Elves age differently)

Yes, we need a better word for it, since I wasn't thinking of biological aging, as in a body growing old. I just meant that their existence within Time can be measured just like the existence of anything else within Time can be measured, and therefore we can say that (most of) the Valar are as old as Ea, in that context.

[Lenya]

Yes, now I totally agree with you. A different word would be better, but lets not go into that. :)

[Finrod Felagund]

The truth is no one will ever know the identity of Tom Bombadil except for J.R.R. Tolkien. There is only one thing I know for sure, and that is Tom Bombadil's concept came from a doll Tolkiens son had, Tolkien used to tell his son night time stories with the Bombadil doll and make silly rhyms like those in The Lord of the Rings. Other information that isn't known for absolute certainty can be that it is said I think that Ilúvatar never came nor sent any of his likenss into Arda. Finally there will be endless questions of Bombadil like who is the Dark Lord he is talking about, was it Sauron or Morgoth? Both Treebeard and Bombadil claim to be the oldest in Middle-Earth so who really is? Also Bombadil cliams to have come before the Eldar and before Atani. So he could not be Elf, Man, or Dwarf. One theory that has never really been discussed is that Tom is a liar. Perhaps Tom is just dilusional! He did not come before and is not oldest. Perhaps!? Yet we must know he must be something on a higher level of Maia, on level with the Vala or higher due to his resistance to the ring. It didn't effect him in any way and not even a Maia of Manwë, Olórin, could resist the ring! So in the end who, or what, is Tom Bombadil? No one but the late great J.R.R. Tolkien will ever know.*


One theory I've heard is that Bombadil was a maia who "went native" so to speak...quite possibly of Yavanna's maiar judging by his nature fixation...

The fact that he was not affected by the ring does not mean he was not a maia, because even Samwise Gamgee was able to resist...
As was said at the council of Elrond, he would not have cared, which is why he would not have been affected. His worries were his domain, and Goldberry...the ring meant little to him.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Tom could be the Offspring of Treebeard, a large bottle of vodka, and a dwarf-woman who was not-quite-so-hard-to-get!! :D

seriously, though, I have always regarded him as some sort of Earth-Spirit
(I have more of this in the Discussion Project, 'In The House of Tom Bombadil, or it might be the old forest, or maybe fog on the barrow downs)
my knowledge eludes me :D :D

[mewhmag]

i was curious if there could be a connection between Bombadil, Beorn and Radagast. they are all enigmatic figures, somehow. they seem not to be interested in all what´s going on "political", they are interested in nature, and the beauty of things only. they seem to know a lot, but don´t care to bother (unlike Gandalf, who has to take part in the action).

not sure if i want to know much about Bombadil, too. it could be quite obvious that he is Illuvatar, but because of the complete separation of mythology and religious truth explained by Tolkien as fundamental for his sub-creation, it´s the people and angelic powers who do the work - because they are able to to so according to their creator - but there is no such thing as a "divine intervention". there is providence, of course, but that´s a mystery in itself which i feel not able to explore.

[mewhmag]

That would be the Flame Imperishable, which is what Iluvatar used to create everything. But everything ages within Ea. Within that context, all of the Ainur who entered Ea at the beginning of Time would be as old as the universe.

just curious: is the Flame Imperishable the light of the trees of Valinor? that is, light as the fundamental metaphor for the source of goodness, beauty and truth.

[trolls' bane]

just curious: is the Flame Imperishable the light of the trees of Valinor? that is, light as the fundamental metaphor for the source of goodness, beauty and truth.
I don't think so. The trees were there ages after the world was created. The flame imperishable was mentioned ages before it was created.

[Michael Martinez]

...but there is no such thing as a "divine intervention". there is providence, of course, but that´s a mystery in itself which i feel not able to explore.

Gandalf's resurrection would be an example of divine intervention. So would the destruction of Numenor.

[Michael Martinez]

just curious: is the Flame Imperishable the light of the trees of Valinor? that is, light as the fundamental metaphor for the source of goodness, beauty and truth.

The Flame Imperishable is generally equated with the Holy Spirit. The Light of the Two Trees was simply the radiance the trees themselves generated.

[Lenya]

i was curious if there could be a connection between Bombadil, Beorn and Radagast. they are all enigmatic figures, somehow. they seem not to be interested in all what´s going on "political", they are interested in nature, and the beauty of things only. they seem to know a lot, but don´t care to bother (unlike Gandalf, who has to take part in the action).

not sure if i want to know much about Bombadil, too. it could be quite obvious that he is Illuvatar, but because of the complete separation of mythology and religious truth explained by Tolkien as fundamental for his sub-creation, it´s the people and angelic powers who do the work - because they are able to to so according to their creator - but there is no such thing as a "divine intervention". there is providence, of course, but that´s a mystery in itself which i feel not able to explore.

I do not believe there are any connections between them, apart from the fact that all three care about Nature. It is said that Bombadil was one of the first living beings on ME, so he was clearly there before the other two. Radagast was sent there ages after Bombadil (beginning of the third age) and I think that Beorn is also a being of the third age.

[Pytt]

I do not believe there are any connections between them, apart from the fact that all three care about Nature. It is said that Bombadil was one of the first living beings on ME, so he was clearly there before the other two. Radagast was sent there ages after Bombadil (beginning of the third age) and I think that Beorn is also a being of the third age.

i agree.
despite his shape-shifitng ability, beorn was no more than a man, and he was not young in the hobbit. and he was dead in LOTR so he couldn't have been there longer than most humans.

[mewhmag]

I do not believe there are any connections between them, apart from the fact that all three care about Nature. It is said that Bombadil was one of the first living beings on ME, so he was clearly there before the other two. Radagast was sent there ages after Bombadil (beginning of the third age) and I think that Beorn is also a being of the third age.

well yes, they appear in different ages, but what does that mean to immortal powers? they all had their specific mission at specific times, though. well, whatever, what interests me is that there are so many powers and characters who seem not to be involved in the actions directly, but in a more subtle, backgroundish way. also CÃ*rdan comes to my mind.

The Flame Imperishable is generally equated with the Holy Spirit. The Light of the Two Trees was simply the radiance the trees themselves generated.

yes, but my thought also was that this ratiated light is not the light from the sun and moon , but also has a spiritual meaning. the holy spirit has also the function to "enlighten", in a fundamental sense, to keep up a source for all things good and beautiful in a fallen world. the same could be said about the trees as a manifestation of this ubiquitous power. just look at the succession of the trees, even after the downfall of ages, threre is still a glimmer of this light in the descendants of the original trees.

[Pytt]

beorn was nothing more than a man with the possibility of shapeshfting. and i can't see his 'mission'.
for the other two, i don't think they were in som way related.
Radagast was a lesser maia, and bombadil had been there before time. i am even useure if radagast knew about bombadli presence, but i think he did.
but i see your thought about the minor characters.

[Lenya]

I strongly believe that Radagast did know about Bombadil. After all, he is one of the Maia sent to ME to 'help out' and therefore I think he has a good idee what goes on there and which special people lives there.

[Attalus]

Gandalf knew him, as did Elrond. I see no reason why Radaghast would not have known him.

[Lenya]

I'm sure pretty much all of the important poeple knows him.

[Finrod Felagund]

The Flame Imperishable is generally equated with the Holy Spirit. The Light of the Two Trees was simply the radiance the trees themselves generated.

The Flame of Anor which Gandalf mentions to the Balrog is equated with the Flame imperishable, as oppsed to the Flame of Udun, which is equated with dark fire, like that of hell

[Michael Martinez]

The Flame of Anor which Gandalf mentions to the Balrog is equated with the Flame imperishable, as oppsed to the Flame of Udun, which is equated with dark fire, like that of hell

The Flame of Anor would be the fire of the sun, not the Flame Imperishable. The Secret Fire is the Flame Imperishable. Gandalf told the Balrog that he was a servant of the Secret Fire and a wielder of the Flame of Anor. That is, he served Iluvatar and was able to withstand the Balrog's firey heat (although in the end he admitted to being burned, when he related his story to Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli in Fangorn Forest -- still, he wasn't slain by the Balrog's fire).

[Lenya]

Yes, the Flame of Arnor is deffinately not the same thing as the Flame Imperishable.