Was Beren and Luthien the first man-elf marriage

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Many times in Tolkien I have heard Beren and Luthien being referred to as the first mariage betweeen an elf and a man. But in a recent read of The Silmarillion and looking at the family trees I saw that Idril daughter of Turgon of Gondolin married Tuor son of Huor of the house of Hador.

Now someone please correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't that then make Beren and Luthien the secong elf-man marriage.

[Beren3000]

But the marriage of Tuor and Idril came after the marriage of Beren and Luthien (IIRC, that is).

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Oh. But it still says quite a few times (I think) that Beren and Luthien was the only one before Aragorn and Arwen.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Beren/Luthian was about 30 years before Tour/Idril.

Anyway there may be unnoted marriages between humans and elves other than these two plus Aragorn/Arwen,that were about the high, royal, mighty, famous, and notable, in a the small NW portion of ME. Both races may (JRRT was all over the palce on the possibilities of this subject) have been used in Morgoth and Suron's breeding programs of Orcs.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Thanks

[Michael Martinez]

This confusion arises, in part, from the common misreading of the passage in Appendix A to The Lord of the Rings. Tolkien says there that there were "three unions of the Eldar and the Edain". He doesn't say there were only three unions of Elves and Men. In fact, the reader has already been introduced to Imrahil's family lore, which indicates one of his ancestors was an Elf. We learn more about Imrahil's family history in Unfinished Tales of Numenor and Middle-earth, where it is revealed that Imrazor the Numenorean married Mithrellas, a Silvan (non-Eldarin) Elf of Lothlorien.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Even among the Eldar, there might have many unknown to historians and not"passed down to JRRT, the 'translator' of these tales" marriages to humans, particular among lower unnotable classes. Note that most of the stories we have center around the high. We even get a disproportianate amount of material about what little aristocracy there is among the Hobbits: The Took and Brandybucks, the near aristocractic Bolgers, and there well to do cousins of theses 3 families, the Bagginses.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Wasn't Earendil an Edain and he married Elwing who was the heir of Thingol.

[Radagast The Brown]

Wasn't Earendil an Edain and he married Elwing who was the heir of Thingol.Is this a question, or a statement? :confused:

Eh, Earendil was son of Tuor and Idril - so he was 1/2 Elf and 1/2 Man. Elwing was a bit complicated... she was: 1/8 Maia, 1/4 Man and 5/8 Elf. (from memory, I could be a bit wrong.)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Wasn't Earendil just a man because didn't Idril have to become a human to marry Tuor?

[Radagast The Brown]

Wasn't Earendil just a man because didn't Idril have to become a human to marry Tuor?No. Tuor became an Elf, IIRC. The only one from all men.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Why? Why didn't Idril become a human.

[Radagast The Brown]

Why? Why didn't Idril become a human.Why would she become human? She was born an Elf. :p
I can't really tell you why Tuor became an Elf, there's probably someone who read the Letter/HoME to tell you that.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I mena become a human like Arwen or Luthien did.

[BeardofPants]

They didn't become human, they chose mortality. There's a difference.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

What were they then, because they can't have been elves because they were no longer mortal.

[Radagast The Brown]

What were they then, because they can't have been elves because they were no longer mortal.Elves can die, if they wish to... remember they can die either of grief or from physical wounds. (It's all in the Sil)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But they were immortal so if they wished then they didn't have to die.

[Artanis]

What were they then, because they can't have been elves because they were no longer mortal.Physically and mentally they were still Elves. The difference was their fate after death. Lúthien and Arwen chose to share fate with Men, that is, that their spirits should leave the world when the body had died.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

So they were basically mortal elves.

[Lefty Scaevola]

JRRT notes in HoME says effectively that humans and elves are the same species geneticly, and were indistinguishable as infants, that the difference between them was the difference in their frear and that the spirit adapted the development of the body to better fit it. The biggest differnce in their spirits was that jumens had some place esle to go and elves did not. Thus the human spirit adapted the body for mortality an moving on, and the elvish spirit adapted the body of long life because it was bound to the Earth. He said the differences started become fairly noticeable around age 6 or 7.
Thus, once the being bound to the earth is removed from the spirits of Luthian and Arwen, their spirit will begin to readapt them to mortality and they should gradually become more human like and less efl like. Because they are fullly grown adults, the adaption smay take place more slowly than it does among children. Being genecticly the same species explains there being no problem with interbreeding. The sparseness and nature of this JRRT idea leaves enomours room to speculate about what a mixed human/elf would be or what there death fate was without the intevetion of the Valar to make them one or the other.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Interesting. Never seen that before.

[Artanis]

Neither have I. That is, I read in Laws and Customs that children of Elves and Men could not be told apart during the first years, but that part with the fëa adapting the rhöa to fit better was new to me. Could you tell us where you found that Lefty?

[Lefty Scaevola]

I do not recall the location, I will try to find it in the index.

[Lefty Scaevola]

I have found some passing refenrence to it in OF DEATH AND THE SEVERANCE OF FRE AND HRONDO IN 'laws b' in Morgoths Ring page 219. But IIRC, it was more directly presneted elswhere, maybe thoses not discussing what would happen to a mortal few/hroa that live in Aman. Does anyone recall where that was.

[Artanis]

Wasn't that in Morgoth's Ring too? Myths transformed, at the very end of the book, I think.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

That's what Lefty said.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

I know thisis going to be a more or less Lord of the Rings question but I don't want to start a whole new thread for it. My question is, Beren and Luthien were the first Elf/Man marrige, correct? And from that line came Elrond and Elros, the half-elven! So... If Arwen, Elven, and Aragorn, Edain, had a son, Eldarion!, wouldn't he be half elven too? Or at the least on a similar level of Tar-Minyatur or Tar-Amandil!? Could Eldarion have in a way recreated a nobal race of New-Númenoreans!?

[Artanis]

Well, one of the purposes of the marriage between Arwen and Aragorn was to renew the Elvish strain in the blood of Men.

Lets look at the maths: If we for simplicity say that Lúthien was 100% Elf and not half divine, then Dior was half Elven, Dior's daughter Elwing was 1/4 human, and Elwing's sons Elrond and Elros were 3/8 humans, since their father was Eärendil son of Idril and Tuor. That would make Arwen, Elladan and Elrohir 3/16 human and 13/16 elvish. :D Hardly half-elven anymore. (If anyone would like to compute the percentage of Elvish blood left in Aragorn, please go ahead :D )

But if we forget the maths, then I think the term Half-Elven denotes someone who by the grace of Eru has been given a choice of which of the two races to belong to. That was true for Elros and Elrond, and Elrond's children, but not for Eldarion.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Yet since Arwen choose to remain Elven she was then full elven, even though she can be considered, somehow, halfelven. And Aragorn who was by no means fully human had edain and elf in him as well So, their son would have been in an extreamly rough mathatics half and half. So he may not have been given the choice to be elven but that would then give him the comparrison to Tar-Minyatur not Elros. The already human form of Elros... as if Eldarion had the choice and made it? Also I think it is worth noting that Eldarion also has Maia in him! Melian, a maia become wife of Thingol and mother of Luthien! So both Aragorn and Arwen had part Maia in them! So if they can be considered related(Olorin and Melian) then Aragorn is related in a distant way to Gandalf!?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

And to Sauron!

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

You know, I have actually never once thought of that! I only think of Gandalf when I think of those kinds of relations but if it were that way then you're right! Sauron is Aragorns 183rd cousin! haha... interesting!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yeah.
Sauron: Come on Aragorn. Come give uncle Sauron a hug!

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Think about the family reunion!? Like most familys, they all got to pretend they actually like eachother! Gandalf drinking a glass of ale with Sauron. Aragorn gettin the birds and bees chat with elrond.... haha

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

The Gandalf goes and asks cousin Saruman wheher he'd like another beer or perhaps some pipe weed.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Also as was pointed out in the "Mathamtical" post wasn't Beren and Luthiens son the true half elven!? Why was half elven waited to be given to elrond and elros when they are 13/somethingeth elvish!?

[Earniel]

Also as was pointed out in the "Mathamtical" post wasn't Beren and Luthiens son the true half elven!? Why was half elven waited to be given to elrond and elros when they are 13/somethingeth elvish!?
It wasn't until Elrond and Elros' days that it really became an issue to which race they would belong. Well, actually it started with their parents Eärendil and Elwing but since those two have technically left Middle-earth before their choice was made I reckon their sons were the first to receive the name of 'Half-elf'. Because it was from that time on that Half-elves had the choice to which kindred they would belong: Elves or Men.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

What would happen if it were a dwarf or a hobbit that married an elf. If they choose to be elven would they suddenly grow.

[Radagast The Brown]

What would happen if it were a dwarf or a hobbit that married an elf. If they choose to be elven would they suddenly grow.That's a rather silly question, in my opinion; and no one could asnwer it, because it didn't happen and will never happen.

I can tell you, that if a dwarf married an elf, (and they would never marry, but anyway..), then he'd stay a dwarf, and the elf will still be an elf.

[Ulmo]

Arwen was not an elf to begin with. She aged as one until her choice (which was required of her around the time her father left Middle-earth). The same was required of her brothers, though they put it off a little longer.

That would make Arwen, Elladan and Elrohir 3/16 human and 13/16 elvish. Hardly half-elven anymore. (If anyone would like to compute the percentage of Elvish blood left in Aragorn, please go ahead)

Regardless, any amount of mortal blood made one into a mortal being - prior to Earendil's family being given the choice, Manwe declared that any being with any mortal blood was mortal.

Also as was pointed out in the "Mathamtical" post wasn't Beren and Luthiens son the true half elven!?

Dior wasn't 50/50 either, as noted previously. His mother's mother was an Ainu.

Yet since Arwen choose to remain Elven she was then full elven, even though she can be considered, somehow, halfelven.

Arwen never chose to remain Elven - where did you hear this? She chose a mortal life.

Wasn't Earendil just a man because didn't Idril have to become a human to marry Tuor?

No. This is a common misconception (brought about in part, or spread by, the movies) - elves cannot choose to become mortal, nor do they automatically become mortal by marrying or having intercourse with a mortal. Only one elf - Luthien - was allowed to choose mortality, and that was a special gift granted by Eru as proposed by Manwe for Luthien and Beren's great deeds.

Additionally, Tuor is the only man to be made immortal, but likewise, this was not because he wed or had a son by Idril - it was a privelege granted later when Gondolin was abandoned, a gift for his deeds and obedience to Ulmo.

Elves can die, if they wish to

Where did this come from? If by "if they wish to," you mean they grieve themselves to death or jump out in front of a spear, that's true, I guess.

Also, here's the quote someone asked about earlier (that notes the biological similarities between elves and humans). It's in Letter No. 153 (a popular one for it addresses many issues throroughly, including Earendil's family's situation).

Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring – even as a rare event: there are 2 cases only in my legends of such unions, and they are merged in the descendants of Eärendil.

This letter was written in September of 1954 (after The Lord of the Rings). It doesn't include a 'third' union (as someone referred to that quote before) because Tolkien a) had no idea that anyone would ever learn of Imrazor/Mithrellas and b) the marriages of the Dior/Nimloth and Aragorn/Arwen don't really qualify. While Nimloth was full elven, Dior was not a man - just a half-elf. The Peredhil are neither Eldar nor Edain. Just Peredhil. Tolkien emphasized this in his letters, as here in No. 345:

Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Arwen never chose to remain Elven - where did you hear this? She chose a mortal life.


A Mortal life perhaps but that does not mean she became Mortal. She died, still young, two years after an aged Aragorn dies. She wanders the woods of Lorien before lying down to die in her greif. She dies because of the bite of the mortal life, the loss of Aragorn! Most likely she lay down to die and returned to the Halls of Mandos. Not to mention where are the guidlines for half-elven choices!? Arwen had already lived for almost two thousand years before having to choose!? When exactlly do half-elven have to make their choice? Is it ever stated anywhere in Tolkiens writings? Personaly I think she made the choice before she even met Aragorn.

[Ulmo]

I'm afraid that's not the case.

A Mortal life perhaps but that does not mean she became Mortal.

No, she became mortal. That's what it means. See below.

Not to mention where are the guidlines for half-elven choices!? Arwen had already lived for almost two thousand years before having to choose!? When exactlly do half-elven have to make their choice? Is it ever stated anywhere in Tolkiens writings?

I told of the guidelines set for Arwen and her brothers. They are found in both The Lord of the Rings and Tolkien's letters. As Elrond's children, the choice of his family was extended to them - they had until their father left Middle-earth to decide whether they would be mortal or immortal. Until they made their individual choices, they would age as Eldar. They were not elves.

Letter No. 145:

The Half-elven, such as Elrond and Arwen, can choose to which kind and fate they shall belong: choose once and for all.

Appendix A in The Lord of the Rings:

To him therefore was granted the same grace as to those of the High Elves that still lingered in Middle-earth: that when weary at last of the mortal lands they could take ship from the Grey Havens and pass into the Uttermost West; and this grace continued after the change of the world. But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth.

Letter No. 153:

The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share. Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race, but with dwindling longevity: so Aragorn (who, however, has a greater life-span than his contemporaries, double, though not the original Númenórean treble, that of Men). Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children - with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was CelebrÃ*an dtr. of Galadriel - have to make their choices.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

I stand somewhat corrected, well done Ulmo. I really need to, and have been wanting to for some time, get The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien! So much of my misunderstandings are found in that book! Well... on to my next argument.... :D :evil:

[Ulmo]

No worries! ;) This is a case that's very often misunderstood (especially since it isn't handled directly within the main text). I'm glad I could help.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I know what you mean Halbarad. It happens to me alot to.

[Lefty Scaevola]

I do not have the letters, but I have read most of that somewhere. It would either have to be HoME or perhaps a Michael Martinez article.

[Attalus]

I stand somewhat corrected, well done Ulmo. I really need to, and have been wanting to for some time, get The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien! So much of my misunderstandings are found in that book! Well... on to my next argument.... :D :evil:The Letters and Unfinished Tales are the books I constantly recommend to people who have just finished LotR and want to learn more. The Silmarillion can wait, IMHO.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I've read Unfinished Tales. But I haven't read the Letters.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

I have read The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, and im starting in random order the first 5 books of the HoME. Though I really want to get the Letters, last time I was at the book store I picked it up and, had no cash, boooo. Anyhow....

[Ulmo]

The Letters and Unfinished Tales are the books I constantly recommend to people who have just finished LotR and want to learn more. The Silmarillion can wait, IMHO.

If you haven't read The Silmarillion, a large chunk of Unfinished Tales isn't going to make sense because of the volume of First and Second Age material present. Furthermore, it would be a huge spoiler (the Letters would be too). Better to read the Silmarillion story first, then come to Unfinished Tales and Tolkien's letters to see further notes and explanations with some additional story.

I'd read in this order... The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales/The Letters of JRR Tolkien, HoME

HoME is definitely the final step. The letters can be read randomly alongside Unfinished Tales, or with The Silmarillion if you are halfway through or so. Many of the early letters are just letters to the publisher, friends, children, and his wife, then start his letters to Christopher about the progression of The Lord of the Rings. Then start the most interesting letters where Tolkien reveals his thought process behind certain events, the principles being displayed, etc.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I've rread them all apart from The Letters and HoME, which I am hoping to get soon.

[Lenya]

I simply loved Silmarillion and I am 100% a Tolkien fan, but I paged through Unfinished Tales and I am not sure I will enjoy reading it. It looks a bit to dry to read. Do you think it is worth it to read it?

[Radagast The Brown]

I simply loved Silmarillion and I am 100% a Tolkien fan, but I paged through Unfinished Tales and I am not sure I will enjoy reading it. It looks a bit to dry to read. Do you think it is worth it to read it?I'm not sure it's the right place for this kind of question, but...
In my opinion, The Unfinished Tales worth reading. They're not as good as the Sil, and probably passed less 'polishing' by Tolkien.. and still I at least found them interesting.. and enjoyable.

[Lenya]

Thanx. Maybe I will read it, but first I must find The History of Middle Earth Vol. 3 - it's simply my favourite (the part with Beren & Luthien) and I must read the whole thing.

[Wayfarer]

If you want to get technical about it, there never has been a marraige between 'man' and 'elf'. Beren and Luthien were a 'Man' and an 'Elf Maid'. Since (as far as I know) the term 'elf' is canonically always used to refer to a /male/ elf.

[Michael Martinez]

If you want to get technical about it, there never has been a marraige between 'man' and 'elf'. Beren and Luthien were a 'Man' and an 'Elf Maid'. Since (as far as I know) the term 'elf' is canonically always used to refer to a /male/ elf.

I am neither inclined to agree nor to search the texts for an exception.

[Lenya]

I think you are right. It the days that Tolkien wrote the book, women where quite unimportant, with the consequence that when you talk about an elf, there is a 90% chance that that elf is male.

[Michael Martinez]

I think you are right. It the days that Tolkien wrote the book, women where quite unimportant, with the consequence that when you talk about an elf, there is a 90% chance that that elf is male.

I wouldn't put it quite that way, either. There are plenty of "Elven maid" passages. I'm not sure Tolkien ever wrote about "man and elf" marriages. That phrasing is, as best I can recall, a modernism devised by readers of the book.

Tolkien wrote about the three unions of the Eldar and the Edain in Appendix A of The Lord of the Rings. Occasionally, people will ask about or want to discuss the three marriages of Elves and Men, but there were more marriages than that (at least one more). It seems like a lot of people just sort of confuse "Eldar and Edain" with "Elves and Men" (and it doesn't help that both names were supposedly originally applied to the races and then later on applied only to sub-groups).

[Attalus]

He desribed Galadriel as 'a slender elf-woman,' IIRC.

[Wayfarer]

I think you are right. It the days that Tolkien wrote the book, women where quite unimportant, with the consequence that when you talk about an elf, there is a 90% chance that that elf is male.

I don't think that's at all correct. The difference in the terms used has nothing to do with the importance of one sex versus another, and everything to do with the fact that it is nescessary to distinguish between male and female.

The terms used by the elves were actually nér and nÃ*s. Meaning, respectively, male and female (of any species). So an elf would have probably phrased it as a marraige between an atan nér and an elda nÃ*s - that is, between a human male and a female of the eldar.

So, as near as I can hazard a guess...
atan nér - Male Human, Man
atan nÃ*s - Female Human, Woman
elda nér - Male Elf, Elf
elda nÃ*s - Female Elf, Elf-Maid

Most probably, the 'elf' and 'elf maid' is just a translation of the elven words into english (er... westron), using a format similar to 'man' and 'woman' for convenience.

[Elemmírë]

Not sure if it actually fits here... but I don't want to start up a new thread for no apparent reason... ;)

Why is it always said that Arwen/Aragorn was the 3rd marriage between the Eldar and the Edain? I think it's pretty much agreed upon that Eldarion was human, because Arwen became mortal, thus he couldn't be considered peredhel. Wouldn't the same thing apply to Dior? Luthien was mortal at the time of his birth, so technically wouldn't he be considered human?

So what happens with Dior and Nimloth? Why don't they count? :confused:

[Wayfarer]

Nimloth was Silvan, not Eldarin.

(Edit) To expound:

The Eldar were only one group of elves (those that made the journey to Valinor). So when it talks about the three marraiges of the eldar and the edain, it means one specific group of humans (the three tribes) and one specific group of elves. For all we know, there could have been dozens, or even hundreds, of other marraiges between elves and men - between Edain and other elves, or between Eldar and other men. These particular relationships are singled out because they're high profile, occuring as they do among the 'aristocracy' of the two races.

[Elemmírë]

Oh how very confusing. I have only a half a minute before my mom kicks me off this computer.

I had read that Nimloth was close kin to Celeborn, who was obviously Sindarin (in one version, at least ;) ).

Aren't the Eldar all of the Elves except for the Avari? Rather than being the ones who finally made it to Aman, they were the ones who at least started on the journey. I don't have enough time to find a quote... ;)

[Lefty Scaevola]

Nimloth was Sindarin elf of Doriath, a close relative of Celeborn. She was descended from Elwe's borther, Elmo (who did not make it into the Silmarillion text) through Galathil and Galahod.
Silvan elves refer to a cultural divide from the 'more advanced' Sindar and Noldor. Silvan included both Eldarin and Avari groups and combinations of them. All the Avari that appear in the texts, as well as most of the Nandor (the Telrin Eladar who originally halted east of the Misty Mountains) would be Silvan. Most of the population of the Mirkwoood elves, as well as the more original population of Lorien (before it was heavily impacted by frist refugees from Beleriand, and later from Eregion) would have been silvan of a mixture of Nandor and Avari.

[Elemmírë]

Thank you, Lefty. :)

So technically, shouldn't the Nimloth/Dior marriage be considered a fourth (well, chronologically second :confused: ) marriage between the Eldar and the Edain?

[Lefty Scaevola]

A question I have pondered. Dior's parents were both mortal when he was concieved, and his Father always mortal. Luthiun, though mortal then, was concieved of an Elf, and a Maia in elf form. Nimloth is all Elf. JRRT never seems to hav gotten around to writing about Dior's nature.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Well it does say in the Sil that he was the first of a threefold race- Edain, Eldar and Maiar.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Luthian father was an elf, her mother was a Maia in elf form, and she was made mortal by the Valar, to be with Beren. What this state of having been made mortal would men to her later child in respect of his elf/mortal status is not spelled out, but the best guess is that her would inherit mortal from her, since elf vs mortal was in the nature of the soul/spirit, rather than genetic.

[Lenya]

Well it does say in the Sil that he was the first of a threefold race- Edain, Eldar and Maiar.

Really? That's interesting. I don't remember that part.

[Elemmírë]

Luthian father was an elf, her mother was a Maia in elf form, and she was made mortal by the Valar, to be with Beren. What this state of having been made mortal would men to her later child in respect of his elf/mortal status is not spelled out, but the best guess is that her would inherit mortal from her, since elf vs mortal was in the nature of the soul/spirit, rather than genetic.

So you're saying that most likely, Dior could technically be considered fully human.

Then again Maiarin aspect of it probably confuses things a bit more than the Eldarin..

Something I've wondered about Luthien, could she really be considered half-Maia, considering that Melian had, for all intents and purposes, permanently become an Elf? Though, much of the Lay of Leithian doesn't seem possible without taking into account her divine descent...

[Lenya]

So you're saying that most likely, Dior could technically be considered fully human.

Then again Maiarin aspect of it probably confuses things a bit more than the Eldarin..

Something I've wondered about Luthien, could she really be considered half-Maia, considering that Melian had, for all intents and purposes, permanently become an Elf? Though, much of the Lay of Leithian doesn't seem possible without taking into account her divine descent...

Melian was still more than an Elf. Think of how powerfull she was, and her wisdom (see future possibilities).

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Really? That's interesting. I don't remember that part.
From The Ruin of Doriath:

The Dior arose, and about is neck he clasped the Nauglamir; and now he appeared the fairest of all the children of the world, of threefold race: of the Edain, and of the Eldar, and of the Maiar of the Blessed Realm.

[Lenya]

Oh, Thanks :)