A Mortal Life

[Haradrim]

When Arwen chooses the mortal life deos that mean she goes to human heaven of elf heaven. Cuz I mean if she went to the human one then ELrond would literally never ever ever see her again which might be why he was so incredibly sad about her going with Aragron.

[Radagast The Brown]

When Arwen chooses the mortal life deos that mean she goes to human heaven of elf heaven. Cuz I mean if she went to the human one then ELrond would literally never ever ever see her again which might be why he was so incredibly sad about her going with Aragron.Why don't you ask this question in here (http://entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=11196&page=1&pp=20)?

[Haradrim]

well they are different questions. One deals with her life the other with her death. SO I thought they desere=ved different thhreads. But if you want me to post my question there I will. Sorry. :)

[Radagast The Brown]

well they are different questions. One deals with her life the other with her death. SO I thought they desere=ved different thhreads. But if you want me to post my question there I will. Sorry. :)No need to apologise. :) I just thought it's a better place, as the thread deals with 'Arwen's fate as a mortal', and this one seems very similar.

[BeardofPants]

Radagast, I think that they're trying to encourage people to start new threads if the other is too old (dunno what they define as too old tho'), in order to stimulate new debate and encourage newbies. It is tedious to have to comb through a giant 10+ pager full of old debate!!

However, the link you posted is probably okay though, so I guess I should just shut me gob. ;)

[Haradrim]

Well I thought it would just be pleasant to have a palce to discuss her death and not just her life. You know I think they are different discussions but that is for the mods or admins to decide.

[Artanis]

When Arwen chooses the mortal life deos that mean she goes to human heaven of elf heaven. Cuz I mean if she went to the human one then ELrond would literally never ever ever see her again which might be why he was so incredibly sad about her going with Aragron.Arwen made the same choice as Lúthien did, she chose to share the fate of Men. It means that when she died, by the gift of Eru to Men her spirit was free to leave the world, as opposed to the Elves, whose spirits were bound to the world until the it's end. And yes, that's why Elrond and Arwen were both so grieved at their parting, they knew that their fate now were sundered and that they should never meet again, unless there were further life for the Eldar beyond the breaking of the world.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But they could meet againg because surely Elrond could be killed. You never know maybe some corsairs attacked their ship so the never reached Valinor?

[Haradrim]

yeah I mean if Arwen had died when she was an elf that wouyold have been hard for Elrond but at least he knew that someday he would see her again but since she chose the mortal life he knew that never ever ever would they meet again. But that raises another question. Where did men go? where was outside this world. Was that like heaven or something?

[Artanis]

But they could meet againg because surely Elrond could be killed. You never know maybe some corsairs attacked their ship so the never reached Valinor?Well no, they would not meet again even if Elrond dies, when the Elves die they go to the Halls of Mandos, from where they after some time may be reincarnated. Their spirits are unable to leave the world.
Where did men go? where was outside this world. Was that like heaven or something?No one knows. Only the Men who have died, and they don't tell. ;) Personally I think they go to stay with Eru. A sort of heaven, yes. :)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Then in a way men are better off for dying.

[Haradrim]

Thats why its a hard choice for Elronds children because its Immortality on this earth or go to something else which nobody knows about but is there. Its a terribole chocie but I would go with men because when the world is destroyed what happens to the Elves' spirits I would assume they would end as well.

[Artanis]

TD: Yes, you may say that death is the Gift of Eru to Men. :)

[Haradrim]

But wouldnt you pick it over immortality I mean read my last post.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

It says somewhere about elves envying m en for their gift of death and men envying elves for their gift of immortality.

[Haradrim]

its that whole never being happy with one sfate. Men probably didnt understand what a great gift it was and probably clung onto the huge fear of death all men have while the Elves didnt see theirs a s a gift cause eventually they will die and that will be the end of them. I mean in a sense men have the tru immortality.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yeah but don't the elves go to Eru after the world has ended?

[Haradrim]

I dont know originally I thought sao but I think a mooter once told me no. Well if that is the case then why would the elves envy men. They live forever on this world and then when this world ends they go live with Eru. THat doesnt seem to bad to me. That sounds liek the perfect mix actually. So I dont think it can be true

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yeah but they tire of life even though the years pass really quickly.

[Haradrim]

well boo hoo for them. THey live forever see everything that happens from the moment fo their birth and then die and live forever with Eru. Doesnt sound so bad. If you ask me the Elves are just whiners.... :)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I'm not sure about the living with Eru thing maybe they just stayed in the Halls of Mandos.

[Haradrim]

so kind of like an everlasting retirmemnet homne. Man that would suck.It would be like being in the waiting room forever. Playing cards and reading out of date magazines, and watching bad tv and playing Bingo.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

You've changed your tune now.

[Haradrim]

well yeah before they went to eru now they are stuck in the hall f MAndos. It would be great for awhile but then it would get insanely boring.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I'll try and check it up for definite.

[Haradrim]

where would that be so I can help check it out too.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Not sure. I'll check out my Tolkien book later and then post the answer unless someone else knows.

[Haradrim]

yeah everyone feel fre to help us figure this out. I dont have all the books so unless its in the Sil or LOTR or Hobbit or UT 1 then I cant do it.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Haven't found it yet but I'll keep looking.

[Sister Golden Hair]

From the Silmarillion, Houghton Mifflin edition, 1977.

It is one with the gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon whither the Elves know not. Whereas the Elves remain until the end of days, and their love of the earth and all the world is more single and more poignant therefore, and as the years lengthen ever more sorrowful. For the Elves die not until the world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos, in Valinor, whence in time they may return. But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the Gift of Iluvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy.

Immortal were the Elves, and their wisdom waxed from age to age, and no sickness nor pestilence brought death to them. Their bodies indeed were of the stuff of Earth, and could be destroyed; and in those days they were more like to the bodies of Men, since they had not so long been inhabited by the fire of their spirit, which consumes them from within in the courses of time. But Men were more frail, more easily slain by weapons or mischance, and less easily healed; subject to sickness and many ills; and they grew old and died. What may befall their spirits after death the Elves knew not. Some say that they too go to the halls of Mandos; but their place of waiting there is not that of the Elves, and Mandos under Iluvatar alone save Manwe know whither they go after the time of recollection in those silent halls beside the Outer Sea.

The fate of Men after death, maybe, is not in the hands of the Valar, nor was all foretold in the Music of the Ainur.

The years of the Edain were lengthened, according to the reckoning of Men, after their coming to Beleriand; but at the last Beor the Old died when he had lived three and ninety years, for four and forty of which he had served King Felagund. And when he lay dead of no wound or grief, but stricken by age, the Eldar saw for the first time the swift waning of the life of Men, and the death of weariness which they knew not in themselves; and they grieved greatly for the loss of their friends. But Beor at the last had relinquished his life willingly and passed in peace; and the Eldar wondered much at the strange fate of Men, for in all their lore there was no account of it, and its end was hidden from them.

[Sister Golden Hair]

From Morgoth's Ring, Ainulindale, Volume 10, The Histories of Middle-earth series.

But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, (death) and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope. Yet it is said that they (Men) will join in the Second Music of the Ainur, whereas Iluvatar has not revealed what he purposes for Elves and Valar after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it.

From: The Later Quenta Silmarillion.

But the Elves can nonetheless suffer the severence of spirit from body, which is 'death'. Thus it may be said that the essential distinction between the (possible) death of Elves and the (inevitable) death of Men is a difference of destiny after death. From their beginnings the chief difference between Elves and Men lay in the fate and nature of their spirits. The fear of the Elves were destined to dwell in Arda for all the life of Arda and the death of the flesh did not abrogate that destiny.

[Attalus]

Well, that certainly ought to settle it. :D :D :D

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Wow, thanks SGH I'm no longer confused. :D

[Haradrim]

Nifty well that settles that. So Melkor made men fear death and cast shadow over it becasue he envied them in way. But after the second music will Eru still exist so will wherever men go exist after the second music?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Nifty well that settles that. So Melkor made men fear death and cast shadow over it becasue he envied them in way. But after the second music will Eru still exist so will wherever men go exist after the second music?Well, of course Eru will exist, he's God. There is no way to know what is supposed to happen. Only Eru, Mandos, and Manwe know. In the Athrabeth though, Finrod and Andreth speculate a great deal on their ideas of what may be in store for both Elves and Men in Arda Remade.

[Haradrim]

But what happens to dwarves and orcs?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I'm guessing that dwarves go to Aule their creator but I don't have a clue about orcs.

[Haradrim]

Yeah maybe the Halls of AUle. I wonder if orcs go to mans heaven but lik eevil mans heaven or something

[Sister Golden Hair]

Yeah maybe the Halls of AUle. I wonder if orcs go to mans heaven but lik eevil mans heaven or somethingThere is no such thing as the "Halls of Aule." There is only the halls of Mandos and since the Dwarves became accepted by Eru as his Children and one of the speaking races of Middle-earth, they too would go to the halls of Mandos after death.

[Beren3000]

they too would go to the halls of Mandos after death.
Doesn't it say somewhere in the appendices that dwarves had their own legends about their origin (which we know of) and their fate after death?
Doesn't that imply that they are destined to a different fate than the elves?

[Artanis]

I think so too Beren - I'm not sure if there was a place for Dwarves in the halls of Mandos. And why not Aulë? Who knows if he had a secret dwelling in some mountain in Valinor for Dwarven spirits. :)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Does it say anything about it anywhere because if not I'd guess that they do go to the Halls of Aule.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Does it say anything about it anywhere because if not I'd guess that they do go to the Halls of Aule.Again, there is no such thing as the "Halls of Aule." They are considered Children of Iluvatar, but Aule is their maker. Even the Dwarves say that they will go to the halls of Mandos.

From the Silmarillion, Houghton Mifflin edition, 1977.

Aforetime it was held among the Elves in Middle-earth that dying the Dwarves returned to the earth and the stone of which they were made; yet that is not their own belief. For they say that Aule the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he declared to their Fathers of old that Iluvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

So they stayed forever in the Halls of Mandos whilst the spirits of elves could return.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

I can not remember where, possibly Silmarillion in the chapter of Aulë and the dwarves, yet I am pretty sure Tolkien said the dwarves would go somwhere not Valinor(Halls of Mandos) and not... wherever men go. I may be wrong so don't slay me for making this claim, but I really think it says this somewhere.

[Sister Golden Hair]

So they stayed forever in the Halls of Mandos whilst the spirits of elves could return.Here is more of what the Dwarves have to say about their fate.

From The War of the Jewels, Volume 11, the Histories of Middle-earth series.

Aule cares for them and gathers them in Mandos in halls set apart for them, and there they wait, not in idleness but in the practice of crafts and the learning of yet deeper lore. And Aule, they say, declared to their Fathers of old that Iluvatar had accepted from him the work of his desire, and that Iluvatar will hallow them and will give them a place among the Children in the End. Then their part shall be to serve Aule and to aid him in the re-making of Arda after the Last Battle.

[Michael Martinez]

Again, there is no such thing as the "Halls of Aule." They are considered Children of Iluvatar, but Aule is their maker. Even the Dwarves say that they will go to the halls of Mandos.

Technically, Aule did have halls in Valinor. He just didn't gather the Dwarven spirits there.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Technically, Aule did have halls in Valinor. He just didn't gather the Dwarven spirits there.Really? Where can I read about that?

[Michael Martinez]

Really? Where can I read about that?

There is a passage somewhere about Mahtan's family living near the halls of Aule. It might be in the fragment of "Shibboleth of Feanor" which was published in Vinyar Tengwar (he was not called Mahtan there, but something like Rusco and another name). It might be in the main text of "The Shibboleth of Feanor" itself, in The Peoples of Middle-earth.

[Ælfwine]

You can also find a reference to "Aulë's Great Court" in Karen Wynn-Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-earth. I think that it is placed just west of Valmar.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

It says somewhere about elves envying m en for their gift of death and men envying elves for their gift of immortality.

The grass is always greener on the other side :D

[Michael Martinez]

You can also find a reference to "Aulë's Great Court" in Karen Wynn-Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-earth. I think that it is placed just west of Valmar.

She based that on The Book of Lost Tales, and it's not quite the same thing.