Bill Ferny: Man or Hobbit

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Unless I'm mistaken I don't think Tolkien ever says in LotR whether Bill Ferny is a Man or a Hobbit. There is evidence to show both.

Hobbit: Bill was a pony not a horse and men don't usually have ponies.
Man: He took up the squint-eyed Southener and the ruffians.

Is there any other evidence to suggest he is either because if would really lik to know.

[Haradrim]

I always thought he was like a wicked tall Hobbit. But if anyone with real evidence comes a long I will accept it as factual

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I always assumed he was a hobbit until I really thought about it.

[Haradrim]

well some hobbits could take on men and maybe Bill was one of them

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yes but Aragorn said that Bill knew the lands around Bree well and if he was a hobbit I doubt that he'd go travelling round the lands near Bree just to get one over on Strider or for luxery.

[Haradrim]

but hes already pretty unusual for working at the prancing pony. He probably has a little adventurous spirit in him. So he probably did go walk around Bree

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Bill Ferny didn't work at The Prancing Pony.

[Haradrim]

oops sorry. Whatever I always figured he was of the tookish strain and that is why he hung out there so much

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

No I thin he just hung out there to get info he could sell on.

[Haradrim]

maybe but i think it makes more sense if hes a hobbit

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yeah but I just want to know if there is any solid evidence.

[Haradrim]

none that I know of :)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

There's probably something in one of the Appendices or another book.

[Haradrim]

Im skimming those right now and I havent come up with anything yet.

[Earniel]

Man: He took up the squint-eyed Southener and the ruffians.
On the other hand, he could have done so too if he had been a Hobbit. Not all Hobbits were that pure of heart. Although the squinty-eyed Southener would no doubt have gotten a sore back from hiding in a Hobbit-home. :p

I always assumed Ferny was a Hobbit, can't say why really. But judging from the quote here, I think he may more likely have been a man.

from FOTR, chapter "at the sign of the Prancing Pony":

The landlord introduced the newcomers to the Bree-folk, so quickly that, though they caught many names, they were seldom sure who the names belonged to. The Men of Bree seemed all to have rather botanical (and to the Shire-folk rather odd) names, like Rushlight, Goatleaf, Heathertoes, Appledore, Thistlewool and Ferny. (not to mention Butterbur.)And if anything this quote seems to leave no doubt at all:


From FOTR, chapter "A knife in the dark"
Over the hedge another man was staring boldy. he had heavy black brows, and dark scornful eyes; his large mouth curled in a sneer. He was smoking a short black pipe. As they approached he took it out of his mouth and spat.This man turns out to be our Bill Ferny.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Wow thanks Eärniel.

[Attalus]

Darn, Earnil beat me to it. Yes, Bill Ferny was a man, for the reasons she gave.

[Haradrim]

okay wel that settles that Bill Ferny was a man. WIPEEEE!!!!!!! But if he was a hobbit do you think he would have been bad too?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Dunno but if he was imagine him with the Ring hehehe

[Haradrim]

OH NO! NOT ANOTHER WHAT IF X GOT THE RING!!!!!!!!! AH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :) sounds fun tho. I think he wqould claim lordship over Bree.... :)

[Attalus]

The Nazgul, who were right there, would have made him give it right back.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Bill Ferny had one of the man type botanical names of Bree; He was later a member of the Chief's ruffians in the shire of which there is no suggestion of hobbits among them; He lived in a house, suitable enough for the southern orc looking man to hide in, in Bree, not a hole; 9as above noted) "Over the hedge a man (Ferny) was staring Boldly"; "swarthy" an adjective not know to be applied to hobbits;and Finally and nearly conclusively "you will wake the Chief's big man" who turn out to be Ferny.
QED

[Haradrim]

So I think with all this evidence that clearly supports Bill Ferny being a man that I will agree that he in fact is a man.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yeah we establisted that earlier but thanks anyway Lefty.

[BeardofPants]

Well, now to throw the spanner in the proverbial works. Hobbits are men.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

What?

[BeardofPants]

Yep. Learn something new everyday, huh?

[Haradrim]

yeah well they do have genders and therefore roughy 50% of Hobbits are men. And I guess from the quotes used to proove he is of the human race you could also take it that alls that it means is that he is male.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yeah thats something that has always confused me, the difference in LotR between man and male. Eg. Could a male hobbit or elf, or dwarf etc killed the Witch-King or was it males that couldn't not just male men.

[Haradrim]

Thats the whole tricky prophecy. THe prophecy doesnt mean any Hobbit could kill it only that Merry could kill it because he wasn t a man in one sense and Eowyn could kill it because she wasnt a man in another sense. I think the prophecy meant only those two could kill him but it just worded it in a really wierd way.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But if has BoP says hobbit male are men then Merry ouldn't have been able to help slay him.

[Haradrim]

I think BoP meant that he was male. In one sense he could slay him cause he wasnt of the race of men.

[BeardofPants]

No. Hobbits are men, as in, of the race of men. Hobbits related to men... ring any bells?

Merry had a special blade that undid the spells cast over the nazgul... which is why eowyn was able to do as much damage as she did.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But then the two reasons contradict.
Merry- Wasn't a race of man but was male
Eowyn- Wasn't male but was the race of man.

[Haradrim]

But thats jsut it T.D. thats the deal with prophecys. Usually they have double meanings and didnt the prophecy say no man will kill him not he cant be killed by a man. I thinkt thats the dfference.

And BoP where does it say Hobbits are reallted to men. In lotr tolkien says hobbit's origins are unknown.

[BeardofPants]

Check your prologue, guys, it's in there.

[BeardofPants]

Regarding the "prophecy"; the witchking was killed by Eowyn.... who states something to the effect that she is no man. Merry did NOT kill the witchking; he merely broke the spells, thus enabling eowyn to make the killing blow.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

And it says somewhere about no mortal weapon being able to harm him, but that might be someone else.

[Haradrim]

Yeah that woudl fit along the lines of the prophecy the way I remember it

as the witchking shall not be kiled by any man instead of
HE cannot be killed by any man

I think everyone including the witch-king misinterpreted the prophecy

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yeah that would make sense.

Like on the doors of Moria 'Speak friend and enter' is misinterpreted when it should be 'Say friend and enter.'

[Haradrim]

I have learned from Tolkien that a lot of it depends upon the wording of the prophecy or command. It is kind of funny how many circumstances of that there are.

[BeardofPants]

Guys, guys.... The blade that merry used to take out the witchking's knee wasn't a normal blade. It was a special blade that could be used to un-knit the spells that bound the witchking (remember, they were found in the barrow, and given to the hobbits by Tom Bombadil), thus leaving the witchking vulnerable to eowyns normal sword.

Did you find the quote in the prologue regarding hobbits being related to men?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yeah he was clever with words like that.

[Haradrim]

No Ihavent didnt no I was supposed to. But I just read it yesterday and I remember it saying nothing having to do with men and hobbits being related.
But maybe I missed something. And Merry and Pippen kind of tag teamed the witch king so in a way they both killed him and I dont think the blade ah dmuch to do with it. I remember the sword beign magical but I dont thinkit could unknit the magic. BEsides Prophecys are always true but they dont alwasy mean what you think.

[BeardofPants]

Hmmm... bloody 'ell. If yer gonna post en-mass in the thread, at least try and do a little research as well, from time to time?

From prologue:

It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement Hobbits are relatives of ours : far nearer to us than Elves, or even than Dwarves. Of old they spoke the languages of Men, after their own fashion, and liked and disliked much the same things as Men did. But what exactly our relationship is can no longer be discovered.

It then goes on to say that the origin of hobbits is problematic. Tolkien (elsewhere?) postulates that they are a sub-branch off Men.

Merry and Eowyn brought down the Witchking. Pippin wasn't anywhere in sight.

Out of the wreck rose a Black Rider, tall and threatening, towering above her. With a cry of hatred that stung the very ears like venom he let fall his mace. Her shield was shivered in many pieces, and her arm was broken; she stumbled to her knees. He bent over her like a cloud, and his eyes glittered; he raised his mace to kill.


But suddenly he too stumbled foward with a cry of bitter pain, and his stroke went wide, driving into the ground. Merry's sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the hauberk had pierced the sinew behind the mighty knee.


Eowyn! Eowyn! cried Merry. Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between crown and mantle, as great shoulders bowed before her. The sword broke sparkling into many shards. The crown rolled away with a clang. Eowyn fell forward upon her fallen foe. But lo! the mantle and hauberk were empty. Shapeless they lay now on the ground, torn and tumbled; and a cry went up into shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing, passing with the wind, a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of this world.


So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of the Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yeah Merrys sword was one of the Westernesse (Numenor) and Pippins blade of the same make the writing blazed like a fire at the Black Gate.

[Haradrim]

I have a rpoblem with typing too fast sorry about adding on Pippen. But still they were considered an off branch and therefore different then the race of men and therefore not men. So the prophecy could still say no man and mean Merry

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Do you think that aplied to all Nazgûl?

[BeardofPants]

Hobbits were OF the race of Men. That is what the quote from the prologue states. You can't argue with it, because that is what Tolkien says. Whilst their origins are obscure, and they're considered an off-shoot off Men, they're NOT a separate species, and consequently, are considered of the race of men.

[Haradrim]

Yeah but as Tolkien said they are an offbranch and that means to me that eventually you waould have to consider them a seperate species and I think that by the time of the third age you could suffiecntly call them seperate species.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Do you think that the prophercy aplied to all Nazgûl?

[Haradrim]

I dont kniw but I dont think so. Also another question. When the witch king was killed who took over for the battle before the Black Gate?

[Haradrim]

I dont kniw but I dont think so. Also another question. When the witch king was killed who took over for the battle before the Black Gate?

[Haradrim]

I dont kniw but I dont think so. Also another question. When the witch king was killed who took over for the battle before the Black Gate?

[BeardofPants]

Yeah but as Tolkien said they are an offbranch and that means to me that eventually you waould have to consider them a seperate species and I think that by the time of the third age you could suffiecntly call them seperate species.

From Tolkien's Letters:

[letter no. 131, footnote number 2]

The Hobbits are, of course, really meant to be a branch of the specifically human race (not Elves or Dwarves) - hence the two kinds can dwell together (as at Bree), and are called just the Big Folk and Little Folk. They are entirely without non-human powers, but are represented as being more in touch with 'nature' (the soil and other living things, plants and animals), and abnormally, for humans, free from ambition or greed of wealth. They are made small (little more than half human stature, but dwindling as the years pass) partly to exhibit the pettiness of man, plain unimaginative parochial man ... etc, etc.

Hobbits are Men.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Khamûl took over as he was second in command. He was the Lieutenant(sp.) of Dol Guldur

[BeardofPants]

If you're going to further discuss the take-down of the witchking, you should either start another thread, or find the appropriate thread to discuss the matter. This thread should deal specifically with the nature of Ferny, hobbits, and men.

[Haradrim]

okily dokily
so back to hobbits or men
I still think that technically Ferny could be a hobbit. BEcasue he was male and thanks to BoP's help hobbits could be considered men. so its all a matter of what TOlkien meant by man at that point in time.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

On the other hand, he could have done so too if he had been a Hobbit. Not all Hobbits were that pure of heart. Although the squinty-eyed Southener would no doubt have gotten a sore back from hiding in a Hobbit-home. :p

I always assumed Ferny was a Hobbit, can't say why really. But judging from the quote here, I think he may more likely have been a man.

from FOTR, chapter "at the sign of the Prancing Pony":

And if anything this quote seems to leave no doubt at all:


From FOTR, chapter "A knife in the dark"
This man turns out to be our Bill Ferny.

I think all this evidence that Earniel posted shows he was a human man.

[Haradrim]

yeah but when it refers to men it could technically according to some mean that he is a male hobbit. So he could technically still be a hobbit. but I think he is a man. Im just playing devil's advocate

[Elanor the Fair]

Tolkien rarely, if ever, referred to Hobbits as men in LotR, I think to avoid confusion.
On the benches were various folk: men of Bree, a collection of local hobbits (sitting chattering together), a few more dwarves, and other vague figures difficult to make out away in the shadows and corners.
I think it would be safe to say, despite the relationship between Men and Hobbits, that if Tolkien referred to a character as being a man then he was a Man - make any sense??? :D
He also referred to Bilbo as a gentlehobbit not a gentleman, although he does refer to a postman in Hobbiton.....

I have always thought Bill Ferny was a Man - I don't know why, but as supporting evidence in addition to that already posted .....
Over the hedge another man was staring boldly.
This was Bill Ferny and he was obviously tall enough to stare over a hedge!! :D

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

And as already posted it said one of the men's surnames was Ferny.

[Attalus]

As BoP says, Merry was both a Man and a male. Check the Prologue, "Concerning Hobbits."

[Haradrim]

it says in the prolouge that hobbits and men were connectexd a very very very very long time ago. If you believe in the theroy of evolution ( which som ehere do and some dont and I respect both sides) then apes and humans a very very very very long time ago were once connected but you would never call a monkey human. Its a monkey. Same thing for hobbits and men. They are different now. Therefore Merry contributed to the kill cause he wasnt of the race of men and Eowyn cause she was female. :)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Finally it is all cleared up :)

[BeardofPants]

it says in the prolouge that hobbits and men were connectexd a very very very very long time ago. If you believe in the theroy of evolution ( which som ehere do and some dont and I respect both sides) then apes and humans a very very very very long time ago were once connected but you would never call a monkey human. Its a monkey. Same thing for hobbits and men. They are different now. Therefore Merry contributed to the kill cause he wasnt of the race of men and Eowyn cause she was female. :)
Haradrim, I'm going to kick your little heiny to heck and back. I just POSTED both that quote, and the Tolkien's Letters quote which both EXPLICITLY state that hobbits are Men. Not an off shoot branch, not a not-man, not anything you say. They're MEN, MEN, MEN!! :mad:

[BeardofPants]

Reposting for the blind eedjits:

The Hobbits are, of course, really meant to be a branch** of the specifically human race......

....but are represented as being more in touch with 'nature' (the soil and other living things, plants and animals), and abnormally, for humans, free from ambition or greed of wealth.

**Note, Tolkien says a branch of the human race, NOT a separate species like that of monkey compared to humans. A better comparison would be Homo sapiens sapiens, and Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, which both belong in the same species.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Therefore they aren't humans just a branch of that race.

[BeardofPants]

*sigh* They're a sub-branch of humans. Therefore... human. How hard can it be? They're the SAME species. :rolleyes:

[Haradrim]

Sorry abotu restating what you said in my last post. I want trying to mean that I had just found that I was just restating it. :) Also yes well monkeys right now are another species but say you bringit back to around the dividing point. Then you could day that they are relatively the same species, they are just branches off the same line. They are at that point the same except for a few differences. Then aftera very very very long time they are so different that they are consdiered different species. I believe it is the same for Hobbits and Men. Hobbits were a long time ago a branch of men. However eventually. They grew more and more different. Eventually in LOTR you consider them a seperate species. Therefore as I said before Meerry could help kill the Witchking cuz he wasnt of the race of men and Eowyn could cuz she wasnt a male.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yeah for example do humans have hairy feet and grow to about 4ft tall.

[BeardofPants]

I give up. I really do. You two can talk yerselves blue. I'm going back to the loony bin.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

You are probably right but I have never thought of hobbits as men for some of those reasons above.

[Attalus]

Nope, say it as often as you want to, Hobbits are Men. Homo sapiens sapiens. Tolkien said it, not me, and you can't unsay it. EDIT: And Men do grow 4 feet tall. The Bushmen of the Kalahari, for example. Hairy feet don't make any difference. Consider the Percheron, the Clydesdale, and the Thoroughbred.

[BeardofPants]

*BoP returns briefly from the padded cell to give Attalus a hug*

Thank god, reinforcements arrived. ;)

Yep, the pygmies are pretty darned short, and I swear I saw hairy feet on an italian once... but they're already pretty hairy. :eek:

Another consideration: Tolkien more than likely did NOT believe in the theory of evolution; so that argument is bunk anyway. (As much as it pains me, since I have a degree in anthropology....) Besides, even if Tolkien WAS buying into the ToE, well, hobbits would still be classed as Homo sapiens because he explicitly states that hobbits belong to the SAME species as Men. Monkeys don't even come into the equation at all. AS I SAID BEFORE. In the words of Tolkien, "...abormally for humans...." - post twice, ignored both times. That's it, in a NUTSHELL. IOW, Hobbits are all those traits DESPITE being human.

*BoP returns to her cell, with a more than slightly maddened glint in her eye*

[Meriadoc Brandybuck]

Poor BoP... she's going mad! More support on the way! ;) (Later, when I have more time.)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Okay, I give in. Hobbits are men.

[Attalus]

*BoP returns briefly from the padded cell to give Attalus a hug*

Thank god, reinforcements arrived. ;)

*BoP returns to her cell, with a more than slightly maddened glint in her eye*
LOL, thanks. Hugs always welcome. :D

[Fat middle]

Hmmm... bloody 'ell. If yer gonna post en-mass in the thread, at least try and do a little research as well, from time to time?

LOL :D That's my BoP :D

To try and clarify what BoP says about races and branches: I think it is the same that with Orcs.

Orc is a race that includes different branches: Goblins, hobgoblins, Orcs, Uruk-hais...

In the same way, the race of Men include Hobbits and Men

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Okay I understand now.

[Haradrim]

Well lets take orcs. Orcs you could say are a branch of elves. They were twisted adn changed. They are just twisted evil branches off of elves. But you would never call an orc an elf. When orcs were first made you might call them elves because they werte just made but now after so many many many years they are different because of time and the slow changes they have. Orcs are a different race of elves the same way hobbits used to be short hairy footed men but now after thoudans of years they are a new species. :)

[BeardofPants]

Actually, Haradrim, orks were twisted from Men, and can be considered to be of the race of Men as well.....

It's no good; Tolkien says Hobbits are Men, there's no getting around it. Yer can argue 'til yer frickin' blue, BUT, the fact of the matter is:

Tolkien says they're Men.
Tolkien didn't believe in evolution.


Again: Haradrim, pay attention:

"Abnormally for humans...."

Ergo, hobbits ARE human. Tolkien says as much. Why can't it get through your undersized cranium? :confused: There's no blurring of the lines - it's that frickin' simple. Bloody 'ell. :mad:

*BoP ducks and covers as the ensuing debate roars over her head*

[Haradrim]

Im just going to bow out because I will never change and neither will you so I say we shake hands and I will bow out. :) No hard feelings? :)

[BeardofPants]

Believe what you want, I don't care. I'm just going with what Tolkien said. ::shrug::

[Haradrim]

i know but i interpret it differently thats all.

[Attalus]

You know, Haradim, you would get more respect if you were able to actually quote things that support your ideas instead of just boldly asserting some impossible, unsupportable thesis. If a certain learned Tolkienist of my acquaintance sees this, he would probably say something like, maybe in some other books, but not in the writings of J.R.R. Tolkien. We are not writing fanfic, here, we are trying to understand Tolkien's world better.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Are the sheltered Gentlemen here unfamiler with trolls or subcategories thereof, such as:
http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame78.html

[Haradrim]

I actually dont know how to quote and I am truly sorry if people are getting mad at me because that is the complerte opposite of my intent. I dont mean to upset anyone. I am sorry.

[Attalus]

I actually dont know how to quote and I am truly sorry if people are getting mad at me because that is the complerte opposite of my intent. I dont mean to upset anyone. I am sorry.That's okay. Poor guy, I'm not mad. jist giving you some hints.

[Haradrim]

well thanks but how do you quote things?

[BeardofPants]

Well here's a hint: use the quote button found at the bottom of everyone's posts. ;)

[BeardofPants]

Are the sheltered Gentlemen here unfamiler with trolls or subcategories thereof, such as:
http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame78.html
LOL, guess that makes me a cyber-sister then. ;)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Just like BoP just did!

[Haradrim]

Im just stone deaf then. Io dont pay attention and I just go my own way. Oh yeah and I am stubborn too. :)

[Elanor the Fair]

So, just to tidy things up a bit and return to the original topic - Bill Ferny was a Man - in the tall, shoe-wearing sense of the word!! :)

I know what you are trying to say, Haradrim. It can get a little confusing, especially in The Lord of the Rings. In this book Tolkien never refers to Hobbits as men, despite the prologue and and other references outside LOTR. When he refers to someone as a Man in LOTR - he means someone with a configuration similar to modern day man and not a Hobbit!!! :) I am sure he does this to avoid confusion and to distinguish between the various branches of mankind!!

[Haradrim]

yeah I know. But do origins neccessarily mean same species. Thats my question. I am not disputing and never did that Hobbits were humans. But at what ppoint do you actually call them different species. I would call it now and others here would call it later. :)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Bur for all BoP said I would say now but after relentless pressure I've got to agree with her.

[Attalus]

yeah I know. But do origins neccessarily mean same species. Thats my question. I am not disputing and never did that Hobbits were humans. But at what ppoint do you actually call them different species. I would call it now and others here would call it later. :)Reread the Prologue, "Concerning Hobbits." They apparently originated in the upper Vales of Anduin, during the Second Age. Also, look at the Tale of Years in the Appendix.

[Thorin II]

I always thought Bill Ferny was a Man, but now that it's asked, I'm not sure why I thought so. Eärniel gives some good evidence, though.

[Haradrim]

I know I agree that Hobbits were men along time ago. They were one and the same. Cousins in fact but according to a prophecy if it were to say no man will kill the witchking then I would take it to meaning no human or male will kill the witchking. Also could someone clear up whether it was no man will or no man could cuz I think that is very important. I would but my books have gone missing right after my brother left for college. hmmmmm..... :)

[BeardofPants]

Merry didn't kill the witchking. :rolleyes: Eowyn did, therefore the prophecy is true. All Merry did is make it possible for Eowyn to place the killing blow (by removing the supernatural spells that protected the witchking). And AGAIN, this is not the thread for this debate. Please move it to the appropriate thread. :mad:

[Attalus]

It was "By no man's hand will he fall." The speaker is Glorfindel, see the Appendices.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

There is a thread for this discussion.