Gandalf the Steward...forgive if already discussed...

[ringbearer]

Recently, on yet another read of LOTR, I came across something I had not noticed before in ROTK. I cannot give the exact quote, but Gandalf is speaking with Denethor and mentions that he(Gandalf) is also a Steward...

A Steward of Middle Earth?...indicating an office held until someone else comes along to take over?

What are the thoughts of fellow Entmooters on this subject?

[Artanis]

Well, Gandalf was en emissarie of the Valar, sent out to Middle Earth to assist the people there in their resistance against Sauron. Manwë, the most powerful of the Valar, was king of Arda, but he and the rest of the Valar had more or less retired, and Valinor had been removed from the earth. I guess this is what Gandalf is referring to - him being a representative of the powers of the West.

[Beren3000]

I agree with this; a further proof of the analogy is that Manwë, the Elder King is prophesied to come to Middle-Earth during Dagor Dagorath (the Last Battle). So in a way Gandalf, too, is a steward awaiting the return of the king.

[Haradrim]

Yeah and also there cant really be a king of Middle Earth only a steward. SOmeone who watches over Middle Earth and rises up the people to face whatever evil is rearing its ugly head. :)

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

All of that is most likely correct, and I agree. I think, though, that there is a little more, and its really very simple little more. Gandalf was claiming to be a steward in order to not so much trick, but for the lack of a better word, trick Denethor into thinking that being a steward was not a terrible thing. That in all his power Gandalf was still humble enough to remain a steward and not a ring bearing king. He was showing Denethor that he[gandalf] was no king, and that Denehtor also was no king.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Well like Haradrim said there is no king of Middle-Earth (apart from perhaps Eru). The closest thing to that was the King of Gondor and Arnor. So all Gandalf did was to help keep its orders under control.

[Attalus]

Once again we are arguing about a word that nobody seems to know the true meaning of. For steward, dictionary.com has this entry:

stew·ard ( P ) Pronunciation Key (strd, sty-)
n.
1. One who manages another's property, finances, or other affairs.
One who is in charge of the household affairs of a large estate, club, hotel, or resort.
2. A ship's officer who is in charge of provisions and dining arrangements.
3. An attendant on a ship or airplane.
4. An official who supervises or helps to manage an event.
5. A shop steward.
6. A wine steward.

Now, definitions 2-6 obviously have no pertinence for us, but #1 does. Gandalf is managing Eru's property, namely Middle-earth.

[ringbearer]

Once again we are arguing about a word that nobody seems to know the true meaning of. For steward, dictionary.com has this entry:



Now, definitions 2-6 obviously have no pertinence for us, but #1 does. Gandalf is managing Eru's property, namely Middle-earth.

Thats what I was getting at...but is it not a Steward's responsibility to hold the "office" until someone(Eru!) returns!

[Forkbeard]

Thats what I was getting at...but is it not a Steward's responsibility to hold the "office" until someone(Eru!) returns!


No, it depends on what one is a steward over and even if one is a steward for something or someone else.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

I don't think he is "Stewarding" for Eru because Eru never came into the circles of the world, how can he be holding an office for someone who was never in office!? Perhaps he is "Stewarding" for Manwe but I don't really think that is correct either. I think it was more meephoricle than that. For if he was Steward of Manwe, or eru for that matter, why would he leave after the war of the ring? A Steward remains in power until 1. the king or other permanent power returns, or 2. another steward succeeds him. Where is Gandalfs king? Or where is Gandalfs replacement? I don't think he litteraly meant he was the steward of manwe or eru, or anyone really.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Well he left Middle-Earth when Aragorn had come to power in both Gondor and Arnor, so perhaps he thought he was stewarding ME for the King of Gondor and Arnor.

[Attalus]

I think that one can be a steward for Eru, because Eru is omnipresent and omniscient, even if He had not manifested Himself bodily in that age of the world. He did do so later, however, because that is what the Incarnation was all about, 1 A.D. I agree that Gandalf would have turned over his Stewardship to Aragorn, probably about the time of their conversation on Millonduin.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

I think that one can be a steward for Eru, because Eru is omnipresent and omniscient, even if He had not manifested Himself bodily in that age of the world. He did do so later, however, because that is what the Incarnation was all about, 1 A.D. I agree that Gandalf would have turned over his Stewardship to Aragorn, probably about the time of their conversation on Millonduin.

Eru never had a physical phorm within the circles of the world. Never had never will, this is what tolkien stated.

[Ælfwine]

I think that the reason why Gandalf said this is the key to understanding this. IMO, Gandalf tried very hard one last time to make Denethor come to his senses and again take part in the struggle agains Sauron. To make that possible, Gandalf tried to get the message across that there were other, mightier forces moving as well, that the Ainur were indeed involved.

But I could of course be wrong...

[inked]

Gandalf's stewardship was indeed under Eru for Manwe until the Age of Men! In this regard he draws parallels between himself and Denethor to remind D that a steward is a place-keeper only until the true Heir arrive. It happens in this story that each one's stewardship is to be replaced by the the return of the king appointed and that for both of their stewardships that King is Aragorn.

Denethor had become somewhat like Saruman in his total involvement of self in his task. He had lost the necessary objectivity. He had indeed usurped to a degree beyond simple stewardship as shown by his use of the palantir. In short, Denethor has become a steward in name but the king in self-perception. He has in pride seized for his won that which was never his to have. He was not so ingrained in this mode as Sauman. But the deceits of Sauron via the palantir were powerful though unknown to any save Denethor. Gandalf's reminder was an attempt to appeal to that which Denethor knew intellectually to be true but which had lost belief. Gandalf surely hoped, I think, that this appeal might work. "One convinced against his will is of the same opinion still" so Denethor clung to his revisionist concept of stewardship when faced with the correct one.

[Attalus]

Eru never had a physical phorm within the circles of the world. Never had never will, this is what tolkien stated.
Ah, but since Eru is just another name of God the Father, he allowed Godhead to enter Arda in the form of Jesus Christ. That is the Incarnation. I doubt very seriously if Tolkien disputed that.

[Nurvingiel]

Attalus, are you suggesting... allegory? :D


What if Gandalf is a Steward of Middle-earth, for its citizens? The word "steward" can be used that way. For example, Professional Foresters, whose job it is to manage the public's forest (in British Columbia) are stewards of the forest. You can also say "you steward the forest" when you manage it for future generations.

Maybe that's what Gandalf's Stewardship is.

[inked]

Oh, Attalus, after all these months of reading your posts, I (gulp!) must disagree (though with fear and trembling and nausea at the supposed consequences)! LOTR is postFall and preIncarnational. Therefore there is no Incarnation in Arda.

I hasten to add that in the reality from which Tolkein wrote and we read, Yes, the kosmos was invaded incarnationally and eucatastrophically!! - just not Arda or Middle Earth.

(ducks and runs for cover)

No. No. No. notsss allegoriesss. We hateseseses allegoriessssss we duzzz!

[Attalus]

Oh, Attalus, after all these months of reading your posts, I (gulp!) must disagree (though with fear and trembling and nausea at the supposed consequences)! LOTR is postFall and preIncarnational. Therefore there is no Incarnation in Arda.


Ah, but Arda and Middle-earth became our modern earth, in the Legendarium; I think JRRT said that we are living in the Sixth or Seventh Age. Therefore the Incarnation was in the future, but not an impossibility.

[inked]

In that view, Attalus, as Dame Julian of Norwich said, "All is well, and all manner of thing shall be well." :)

[ItalianLegolas]

but is the mention of a steward actuality, or a metaphor?

[inked]

Actuality, I believe. Gandalf until the King (Aragorn) returns as steward for Manwe. Denethor as Steward for the kingship until the King returns. Aragorn unites the stewardship of the kingship of Gondor and the proper role of men under Manwe in the plan of Eru.

[ItalianLegolas]

true enough