Was the Ring Evil?

[Haradrim]

Was the ring evil. I mean it was used to do evil and its powers were evil but was it evil. I mean can you call an AIMBot evil just because he is programmed to say some evil things. I think not. I think that the ring is neutral and that it was programmed to do its masters bidding and therefore not evil.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well, Sauron was evil and he placed a great deal of his power into the Ring with the sole purpose of ensnaring all the other Rings and the people under them. The Ring wasn't programed like a computer, it was Sauron's actual powers that were placed in it, so in essence it was Sauron.

[Valandil]

Evil! Definitely evil... Sauron put a lot of his own 'self' into the thing. It had a malevolent nature. :evil:

:)

[brownjenkins]

i think it was an extension of sauron... a part of his soul was encaptured in it... this would make it 'evil'... or at least like sauron ;)

[BeardofPants]

And he likely drew upon the remnants of Morgoth's power in the creation of the ring as well, and we all know that Morgoth was totally useless at playing nicely in the sandpit! ;)

[Attalus]

At any rate we have both Elrond's and Gandalf's word that it was "altogether evil." You can see in the events that surround its history. Isildur betrayed, Gollum devoured, even Bilbo playing malicious pranks. And what it did to Frodo wasn't very nice. Even Sam was tempted to become Samwise the Strong, Hero of the Age.

[Beren3000]

The Ring wasn't programmed, it was said somewhere that "the Ring of power had a will of its own."

[Haradrim]

Well I know when I am wrong. Thanks for the input everyone. However I still think that its not really the ring that is evil but that since it is an extension os sauron that it is the power of the ring and not the ring itself that is evil.

[BeardofPants]

The ring *is* Sauron, (and Morgoth); I don't see how it can be anything other than evil. Sauron put a whole heap of himself in the ring, which is why he was seriously fnuckzoid after the ring was destroyed - he'd put too many eggs in one basket.

[Haradrim]

but was the ring evil. Not the power of the ring but the littl egolden ring. Was it evil. I think not. I think the poor thing was a victim of circumstance. He was created to hold evil but that doesnt make him evil as he has no choice in the matter. Poor little ring.

[BeardofPants]

Poor little ring, my butt!:p The thing had a mind of it's own, and inflicted it's will upon it's bearers... Poor, poor Smeagol. His pants weren't quite the same after he found the ring. :(

[Haradrim]

The ring had power which had amind of its own. The ring itself was not evil.
He was like a host body for power that overwhelmed his own little nice sit in a drawe personality.

Its okay little ringie. He didnt mean those nasty things. :p

[Beren3000]

No it wasn't a "host body". Sauron actually MADE the Ring himself. He didn't just go to a local jewler and ask for a plaing golden ring ;) he made the Ring with his own (evil) powers. Which would certainly make the Ring (in itself as an object) purely evil.

[Haradrim]

He made the ring yes.
But in what order did he make the ring.
I thought it went like this.

Makes Ring
Imbues it with evil

Just because an object is made by an evil person doesnt mean that the ring is evil. Therefore I Stand behind my host-body theroy.

Poor little ringie-poo... :)

[BeardofPants]

Hmmm....

*Sauron forges Ring of Power in the cracks of Mt. Doom.
*Sauron wonders at the stupidity of the name.
*Sauron has a craving for chocolate
*Sauron eats a rich, dark, bitter 80% belgian chocolate (which, everyone knows, has been imbued with evil)

....
*Oh, and Sauron imbues ring with Eeeevil. :rolleyes:

Recipe for one evil ring of power:

- Molten gold
- Cracks of Doom
- Lots of evil.

Hmmm...

[Haradrim]

yes but was the gold itself evil. If someone can show me somewhere that it says the ring itself, the gold it is made of, is evil then I will conceed. I personnaly believe that the ring is good and that the power it holds, not of its own free will, is evil. I mean lets say my father who helped make me put huge amounts of evil power in me. Does that make me evil? I personally think not. My creator was evil yes. (Hes actually a really nice guy) but I am not evil. He give me evil powers (didnt actually happen) but that doesnt make me evil. So in conclusion the little ringikins is personally not evil. However I understand where you are coming from and I respect your opinions.


Ahh the little ringiekins. :)

[BeardofPants]

*mumble, mumble* stubborn as an elf *mumble, mumble*;)

Let me get this straight: You are arguing that the gold itself is not evil, right? Not the ring? The gold? One could construct an argument along those lines, in that when Sauron had the gold mined for his ring of power, that the gold itself is untouched by evil. However, in the forging of the ring, you must remember, that not only did Sauron pour his malice and might into the forging of the ring, but the gold was drawn from a land that likely still bore the mark of Morgoth. "The whole of middle-earth was Morgoth's Ring". In other words, the gold is not untainted, and that, my friend, is where your argument tends to topple over.

(My god, I haven't been sucked into a Tolkien debate in ages. This, I thank you. :))

[Haradrim]

Good point about the bein gtaken from that land However if I am born in an evil land does that make me evil. If I am made by something evil does that make me evil and if someone gives me power and makes me a host for evil does that make me evil. I think no. but then again I would love to hear more arguments this is gettin gto be quite fun. Also the ring was made from the gold. Sauron would first have to create the ring. So he mines gold brings gold andd makes ring. THerefore ring not evil. Then ring is embodied with evil powers. Powers evil but ring not evil. :)

[Lefty Scaevola]

Gold was among the elements that Melkor paid the most attention to when working on Arda, and one of thoses containing most of his evil essence. There are feferences to this in HoME, and an essay somewhere, by Michael Martinez, IIRC.

[BeardofPants]

I'd recommend that you read "Morgoth's Ring" - HoME vol 10 for more details of Morgoth's "tainting" of middle-earth. :)

[Haradrim]

still just cuz our little rings forefather gold wasa tainted by evil doenst mean the our favorite rings gold is evil.

I know some of my arguments are getting ridiculous but you guys are giving me a run for the money.

[BeardofPants]

Gold was among the elements that Melkor paid the most attention to when working on Arda, and one of thoses containing most of his evil essence. There are feferences to this in HoME, and an essay somewhere, by Michael Martinez, IIRC.
Many people make the argument that Sauron piggy-backed upon Morgoth's work when creating the One Ring. I can see why - Morgoth's "ring" would likely have contained the power that was needed for the construction of the ring, and as you say, Morgoth paid especial attention to gold. Remember the dwarves lust for gold? There's a pretty good reason right there... for believing that Morgoth's remnants were still strong.

[Haradrim]

Ah but doesnt the lust for gold mean that the dwarves liked the gold especially and not that the gold itself made the Dwarves want it?

Eru, you guys are good. :)

[Lefty Scaevola]

still just cuz our little rings forefather gold wasa tainted by evil doenst mean the our favorite rings gold is evil.
It means it is more susceptable to being evil, because of the essence used in its creation. This "Morgoth's element" in various substances, is however, more apt to be used ofr power (a key aspect of his nature) than just for evil ("ther is nothing greater in Arda than the power of Melkor" {Morgoth})

[BeardofPants]

We've had a bit of practice. ;)

Okay, so what we have so far:

Sauron poured his malice and power into the ring.
Morgoth poured his malice and power into middle-earth; particularly focussing on gold.
Sauron forged his ring from gold within the fires of Mt. Doom - quite possibly one of the few focal points left in Middle-Earth that was still rich with the power of Morgoth.
The ring has a mind of it's own... of sorts. It can manipulate the bearer of the ring, as well as other rings of power, independent from Sauron.
It therefore stands that:


The ring has a form of sentience.
The ring was forged from a material that bore the mark of Morgoth.
The ring was imbued with malice, power, and corruption from Sauron.
The ring was concieved in an area that worked as a focal point of 'evil', concentrating the power of Morgoth.

EVERY aspect of the ring has been tampered with. It really doesn't stand a chance. Every component bears the mark of evil, and corruption.

[Haradrim]

yeah a new entrant in the duel... welcome to the thread.

more susceptible yes but is it evil. Men are susceptable to evil but are they all abd no there are a lot of good men too. (The evil ones are better though, GO HARADRIM) So just cuz the ring might have been evil doesnt mean it was evil.
Though it might have been. However if we were taking this to court a probably he is evil wouldnt win. HEHEHEHEHE :) :)

[Haradrim]

this is in response to BOP's post. My last was not.

Still the ring was overwhelmed by the evil powers which included a sentient
that sentientness was a power and therefore not part of the ring. Also the gold may hvae come from Mordor but that does not mean it was evil. It might be evil yes but is it witout a doubt evil. No Also just cuz it was made where there was huge evil doesnt mean it was evil. I think that we shoul take this like a court room case. There is no 100% vwithout any doubt proof cuz you still cant proove beyond doubt that the gold used was evil. :) this is fun. After this we should think of more technical issues and then debate semantics again. :)

[Sister Golden Hair]

There is no 100% vwithout any doubt proof cuz you still cant proove beyond doubt that the gold used was evil. BoP, steal this guys pants right now! That's an order! :D Haradrim, the Ring was evil, the gold was evil, and its creator was evil. I will try to look it up in "Morgoth's Ring" about the gold. If Tolkien says that the gold, and the Ring was evil, then it was evil. :p :)

[Haradrim]

If you can show me where it mention sthe gold as being evil I wil conceed. but as of yet I find no absolute proof maintaining the evilness o fthe poor liitle ringiekims. :)

[Attalus]

Moreover, nothing is said of Sauron mining for gold. He is a powerful sorcerer. How do we know that he did not, in some awful alchemy, chage something else entirely into the gold that made the One Ring? Something had to hold the force, personality, and malevolence of the Ring? What better than gold , already tainted, but further altered into an uber-gold, the substance of the One Ring?

[Haradrim]

you mention that nowhere is he mentioned mining for gold. I would like you to mention the part where it talks about him making the gold. And even if he made the gold that doesnt make the ring evil it just means that he who made it was evil.

You guys are tough on me I need a break.... :)

[Radagast The Brown]

The Ring was evil, from the beginning... let's see: Sauron forged a ring, golden one. It has no mind yet, so it can't really be evil... or good. Then, he puts much of its power in the ring, which makes some kind of mind in it - not even an independent one, more like one whom Sauron controls in 100%. I can't see how, somewhere in the middle, the Ring could have no been evil.

[Attalus]

you mention that nowhere is he mentioned mining for gold. I would like you to mention the part where it talks about him making the gold. And even if he made the gold that doesnt make the ring evil it just means that he who made it was evil.

You guys are tough on me I need a break.... :)No, it's our part to supply quotes that bolsters our arguments. It is your role to find quotes that supports your totally unsupported, to my mind, argument. We are tough on you because you are wrong.

[Sister Golden Hair]

If you can show me where it mention sthe gold as being evil I wil conceed. but as of yet I find no absolute proof maintaining the evilness o fthe poor liitle ringiekims. :)Alrighty Haradrim, this is what I found.

From Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, Volume 10, The Histories of Middle-earth series.

Moreover, the final eradication of Sauron (as a power directing evil) was achievable by the destruction of the Ring. No such eradication of Morgoth was possible, since this required the complete disintegration of the 'matter' of Arda. Sauron's power was not (for example) in gold as such, but in a particular form or shape made of a particular portion of total gold. Morgoth's power was disseminated throughout Gold, if nowhere absolute (for he did not create Gold) it was nowhere absent. (It was this Morgoth-element in matter, indeed, which was a prerequisite for such 'magic' and other evils as Sauron practised with it and upon it.)

It is quite possible of course, that certian 'elements' or conditions of matter had attracted Morgoth's special attention (mainly, unless in the remote past, for reasons of his own plans). For example, all gold (in Middle-earth) seems to have had a specially 'evil' trend - but not silver.

[BeardofPants]

Thanks Janet, upon seeing the call for proof, I was gonna pull that quote up myself. :)

Alrighty Haradrim, you snotty-nosed lil' punk; gimme your other pants! *snaffles his underoos as well* And THAT's for being an obnoxious debater! :p

;)


NOW, can we agree?

The gold was tainted by Morgoth,
The ring was tainted by Sauron,
The constructs that bound the ring were by Sauron,
The ring worked independently of its bearer,
Upon destruction of the ring, Sauron was dissipated, proving that much of himself lay IN the ring,
The area in which the ring was made still bore the marks of Morgoth (and does to this age).

The ring was evil, the material was evil, the essence of the ring was evil. Sauron was a necromancer who would cunningly use gold - why? Because it conveyed power more easily, and he had the aid of his former master to help him in both the gold, and the Cracks of Mt. Doom.

edit: Haradrim: that quote I posted earlier with regards to "Morgoth's Ring" ties in directly with the quote that Janet posted. Morgoth's ring included the entirety of middle-earth, so it was rather impossible that the gold would not be tainted.

[Olmer]

Actually, I don't see in the ring any will (cunning or evil) .
It was conniving devise designed with EVIL INTENTIONS to perform certain planned tasks.
Let's look at the more or less obvious abilities of the Ring.
It is able:
1. to attract a potential ring-bearer ( Beats me, but if it holds your life-force, I don't see the clever reason of making a such creative way for your own destruction) :rolleyes:
2. to dispatch the whereabouts of it to the Dark Forces.
3. to suck the life force out of the ring - bearer (Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo) turning him into the shell without his own will.
4. to establish mental connection between Sauron and the ring-bearer.
Judging by abovementioned characteristic one could say that the Ring is a some kind of powerful bio-magnetic transmitter.
It was programmed to seek the more powerful "donor" and works accordingly. It was crafty, but mindless thing, which doesn't need a powerful OWNER ( not bearer) and can work in full power by itself as long as will exist the receiving processor.

The One ring was not that powerful, as Gandalf tried to make everybody think, and probably made by Sauron not for his own use. The reason to believe in so we found in Gandalf’s own “slippage” He believed that the One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it”. If Sauron, the owner of the Ring which supposedly holds his life-force, could think that he can live happily ever after the Ring’s destruction, he probably knows about it’s abilities much better than the Wizard. :evil:
Besides, the Ring did not have the real power to help the owner to be always in control of the situations . We can see from the history of the Ring that Sauron had never been successful in his campaigns even when he was CARRYING the One Ring on his finger. More then that he, the Maia, was defeated without any magic help by an ordinary mortal man - Isildur.
Also, it possible that the power abilities of the Ring was "a little bit" exaggerated by Sauron himself to make it look more desirable? After all it was designed FOR THE ELVES ONLY to "suck out" their everlasting energy and life force and to bring Sauron back in the flesh form.
The motives are clear, for..."long he sought to persuade the Elves to his service, for he knew that the Firstborn had the great power"… Sil.. But it turned out that to ensnare a Noldor is not as easy as to make servants out of Numenorians. So he .."consealed the dark designs that he shaped in his heart"..."hoping to accomplish by cunning what he could not achieve by force“ Sil. I suspect that he made this ring for a very specific task: to "rope" one of the keepers of The Three. To have a High Noldor under your subordination - you can’t wish for a better trophy!!!
This why the Ring’s inscription was written in Fёanorian Tengwar, the language of Noldor, which would look familiar or appealing to the High Elves only. And this why he made it VISIBLE, when the other rings (except the Dwarves 7 rings, for they had strong immunity to their affect) nobody could see. If it supposed to save his soul, why did he put the spell to inflame in a desire to own the "jewelry" and "rule them all" instead of the rightful owner, who would be destined to stay in the shadow?
(By the shape this ring also falls under category of “The wedding rings“. What if this old goat decided to get married, but got “butt off” from his perspective fiancée?) :D :evil:

I also think that the whole deal of this “great evil of the ring” was blown up by Gandalf and the Elves just to make the impression that the destruction of it - a great deed of saving the Middle-earth. In reality it was just some kind of transmitter, the magnet of the supreme energy, not designed to destroy the Middle-earth, but to destroy the Elves..

[Haradrim]

Okay, even though Olmer gives good arguments I now agree that since the gold was tainted with evil and the powers were evil and that since it was created by an evil person in an evil place that the ring is evil beyond doubt.
Eru, That whole thing was enjoyable. :) and, Bop, here are my pants. :( :)

[Radagast The Brown]

Olmer, the fact is, that when the Ring was destroyed Sauron has fallen with it. Meaning- it had a big part of his survival. It's hard to believe that Sauron wouldn't know the Ring exists - as it's part of him - so mayube Gandalf was wrong.

Also, Sauron's plans were clear in the Sil - at least to me - to make them do Rings, and make one Ring to rule them all, as the song says. It didn't work as Celebrimbor, who still had all the rings, felt him and didn't wear it again. (so, btw, there were no keepers of the three those days)

Wasn't the destruction of the Ring important? Without it, Sauron would've won the war. And get the Ring back.

[Haradrim]

If he had thought it was destroyed why would he have sent searchers for it. Also can Sauron be permanently destroyed. II dont think so. There is a place inLOTR where Gandalf says and we will crush him so muchh that we will never see himr rise again or something a long that. That says to me that he is not technically dead or ever will be until the end.

[Radagast The Brown]

He sent searchers only after he came to Dol Guldur, and then he knew about the Ring then. He probably didn't know in the first 1000 years of the 3rd age, or so.

No, Sauron wasn't 'totally' destroyed, as not living anymore. He's a maya, and it's not easy to kill them... impossible, unless they're somehow weakened, I believe (some believe you can). But he's powerless, and I don't think he can rise again.

[Haradrim]

Gandalf said he couldnt rise again he said his spirit was still there but he could never rise again. You can kill them tho? I didnt know that.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Gandalf said he couldnt rise again he said his spirit was still there but he could never rise again. You can kill them tho? I didnt know that.Think of Sauron as a entity that fed off of evil. When the Ring was destroyed, he was powerless. Still existing, but powerless and unable to take shape. Useless.

[Haradrim]

If he fed off of evil then does that mean that he would feed of any evil in ME. That says to me that if some looney wanted to bring him back all they would have to do is do som einsanely horrible atrocities. Maybe if a new Saruman type figure came along and he started researching the irngs again and created another master ring for Sauron then Sauron could come back right?

[Sister Golden Hair]

If he fed off of evil then does that mean that he would feed of any evil in ME. That says to me that if some looney wanted to bring him back all they would have to do is do som einsanely horrible atrocities. Maybe if a new Saruman type figure came along and he started researching the irngs again and created another master ring for Sauron then Sauron could come back right?No. His being was so deteriorated, that he was unable to ever form again or muster his strength. He was done.

[Haradrim]

Where was his spirit though? I mean it had to be somewhere. Where did it go?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Where was his spirit though? I mean it had to be somewhere. Where did it go?The void perhaps.

[Haradrim]

Now did Saruman actually die. IS he gone? Can he come back? I dont think so because he wasnt as powerful as Sauron and plus he wasnt killed in a fight a gainst evl like Gandalf was when he came back. If he died then would he have gone to the void as well.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Remember, all of the Maiar were spirits. They could physically be destroyed. They did not die spititually, but could become so weakened that they could not physically form again, or muster their strength to become a threat in their spiritual state. Gandalf was an exception because of his deeds and assigned quest. He was granted a return as a balance so to speak of power in aiding against the evil and to replace a fallen Maia.

[Haradrim]

I cant remember if he said it in the books but he said in the movie that he was sent back until his job was done or something. What was that about? DId he mean that he was goin gto Valinor because that seems to be saying two different things. It makes it seem like he will die when his mission is over. When he is really going to Valinor. IS that what he meant?

[Sister Golden Hair]

He would not die when he went to Valinor. His mission at the end of the Third Age was complete. He returned to where he came from.

[Haradrim]

But just because Sauron is destroyed doesnt mean that evil doesnt exist in ME. I mean wouldnt there rise a new evil at some point to equal things out. I mean there cant be no evil in ME agaian can there. That would be a little wierd.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yes but Gandalfs enemy was Sauron not the next Dark Lord, I mean the foes of Morgoth didn't rise again to rid Middle-Earth of Sauron. It's like what Elrond said in CoE

' It is for us who still dwell here to deal with.'

If a new Dark Lord arises most likely his enemy will be the King of Gondor.

[Haradrim]

I didnt think Gandalf had one enemy. I thought he fought evil not just Sauron.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yes but his one true foe was Sauron thought he had others. Gandalf was Sauron's nemesis so to speak.

[Haradrim]

I font know. I never realkly thought of them that way. As nemesis'. I always figured it was ood vs. evil and there were certain champions like Aragron, and Gandalf for good and Witch-king and Sauron for evil. I mean I know why Gandalf left but I dont think Sauron and Gandalf were nemesis.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Look on pg 950 The Steward and the King and Gandalf says to Aragorn

'The Third Age was my age. I was the enemy of Sauron; and my work is finished. I shall go soon. The burden must lie on you and your kindred'

[Haradrim]

Oh well thanks. I have to reread the books. :) thanks for the correction!

[Nerdanel]

great, haradrim!:) it's good that you've started many new topics here, we really need them!

i find this discussion hilarious..:D in the general messages we discuss whether animals are moral beings or not, here we discuss whether the gold is evil or not.:D

well, that's my contribution this time. i don't think gold can be evil in itself, not even in a fantasy world. but the ring was evil, yes.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

If its a question of if gold is evil it can be or it can make people evil. Look at the way Thorin acted when Bard asked for his rightful share of the gold of the Lonely MOuntain.

[Sister Golden Hair]

But just because Sauron is destroyed doesnt mean that evil doesnt exist in ME. I mean wouldnt there rise a new evil at some point to equal things out. I mean there cant be no evil in ME agaian can there. That would be a little wierd.Evil will always exist, the same as good. However, at that particular time, it was such a great evil that the peoples of Middle-earth were not capable of defeating it without the intervention of the Valar and Eru's input himself. Therefore, they were aided with an equivalent balance of power to help them. In todays world our greatest enemy is ourselves. Man. There is no need to have a devine intervention for the sake of good. Good will triumph over evil or otherwise with an equal balance.

[Beren3000]

There is no need to have a devine intervention for the sake of good. Good will triumph over evil or otherwise with an equal balance.
Have to disagree there. IMO, it's divine intervention that allows the balance to tip in favour of Good. Otherwise, evil (more tempting and apparently more enjoyable) would have the upper hand almost all the time.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Have to disagree there. IMO, it's divine intervention that allows the balance to tip in favour of Good. Otherwise, evil (more tempting and apparently more enjoyable) would have the upper hand almost all the time.I think you misunderstand what I'm saying here. I don't want to get into a religous debate, but what I mean is: Tolkien tied our world into his. In his world IMO, heaven and hell were on earth. Devine intervention (the Valar and Maiar) in the wars against good and evil were beneficail to the outcome of the war and the final results. Devine intervention was easier to come by in that aspect. However, since Tolkien tied his world into our own world, devine intervention is not as likely when there is an equal balance of good and evil coming from the same race. Remember that Tolkien's wars involved several races, not just humans. Perhaps species is a better term in this case.

[Beren3000]

I stand corrected! After all, I wouldn't wanna face that infamous stick of yours ;)

[Sister Golden Hair]

I stand corrected! After all, I wouldn't wanna face that infamous stick of yours ;)LOL! Ah now, don't let that stop you. I am trying to debate here. But, if you spam or flame, I just may have to WHAP you. :D

[BeardofPants]

SpamofFlame? Must be my cousin. :p

[Sister Golden Hair]

SpamofFlame? Must be my cousin. :pLeave it to you. I'm editing. :p :D

[umbardacil]

i thought the ring was made of gold mixed with saurons blood. The combo made some kind of hybrid-super evil gold.dont know where i heard that though.

[Attalus]

i thought the ring was made of gold mixed with saurons blood. The combo made some kind of hybrid-super evil gold.dont know where i heard that though.I do not think that Sauron had what we know of as blood. We do not know much of how he made the Ring, only when and why.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yeah it says something about him mixing his cruelty and malice in with it.

[Haradrim]

But did he mix his cruelty and malice with the gold in the ring or with the spirit that dominated the ring. Its almost like he trappeda super powerful spirit inside the golden ring. Also if the gold was tainted thats not the golds fault. So originally the gold that created the rign was good then it wasa tainted by no faulkt of its own and then it became a ring and then the evil spirit was implanted in it. Also someone said Melkors presence was still in the gold. So you could argue that it is not the gold that is evil but the spirit that is dominating all gold. Its kind of sad how much I think this through. :)

[Sister Golden Hair]

But did he mix his cruelty and malice with the gold in the ring or with the spirit that dominated the ring. Its almost like he trappeda super powerful spirit inside the golden ring. Also if the gold was tainted thats not the golds fault. So originally the gold that created the rign was good then it wasa tainted by no faulkt of its own and then it became a ring and then the evil spirit was implanted in it. Also someone said Melkors presence was still in the gold. So you could argue that it is not the gold that is evil but the spirit that is dominating all gold. Its kind of sad how much I think this through. :)AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! :evil:

[Haradrim]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! The ring is not evil. The spirit embodying the ring and the spirit embodying the gold are evil but not the ring and not the gold. IT was just an innocent bystander who happened to be taken over. Poor little ringimudgit.

[Sister Golden Hair]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! The ring is not evil. The spirit embodying the ring and the spirit embodying the gold are evil but not the ring and not the gold. IT was just an innocent bystander who happened to be taken over. Poor little ringimudgit.Okay, that's the last time I look up a hard to find quote to get a poster to conceed that doesn't conceed. Just for that, I get to WHAP you with my stick. WHAP! WHAP! WHAP! :D

[Radagast The Brown]

I don't see how can a Ring have any personallity, though, or mind. :p I mean, it didn't have mind before Suaron messed up with it - so the mind was evil from the beginnig, from the first thought to the last. There was, IMO, no time for the Rign to develope a good personallity.

[Haradrim]

First off what gave the ring time to be evil. In my scenario which is yet to be totally and utterly refuted. :) :) (jk) According to the others gold was tainted by Melkor. TO answer that. Yes that is true. But was the tainting in fact maybe part of the spirit of melkor. So the gold isnt evil the spirit embodying it was evil. Then Sauron makes it into a ring. No evilness there. and then he embodies the ring with his own evil. SO therefore the ring and the gold were embodied. Taken over by evil but they were not evil. (phew) :)

[Beren3000]

I personally think that after Sauron's "cruelty and malice" were mixed with the Ring, they became so mixed with its original nature of gold, that the whole essence of the Ring (gold and "spirit") became one, evil being: the EVIL Ring.

[Haradrim]

But i have thought of another question. Did he mix his cruelty withthe gold or did he mix his cruelty with the spirit embodying the ring. Ah.. Ah... yeah this is getting tough... :) I think he mixed it withthe spirit which would make more sense.

[Radagast The Brown]

First off what gave the ring time to be evil. In my scenario which is yet to be totally and utterly refuted. :) :) (jk) According to the others gold was tainted by Melkor. TO answer that. Yes that is true. But was the tainting in fact maybe part of the spirit of melkor. So the gold isnt evil the spirit embodying it was evil. Then Sauron makes it into a ring. No evilness there. and then he embodies the ring with his own evil. SO therefore the ring and the gold were embodied. Taken over by evil but they were not evil. (phew) :)Of course, the Gold itself wasn't probab;ly evil; it was gold, didn't have mind, and couldn't be either good or evil. With the power of Suaron - evil power - it had mind. Evil mind from the beginning, in my opinion, as the mind was created as if from a side-effect of the transferring of power from Sauron to it. :)

[Sister Golden Hair]

The gold was tainted and therefore evil. The spirit that used the gold to create the Ring was evil. The place it was created in was evil. The spirit that went into the Ring was evil, and therefore, the Ring was evil.

Haradrim, why don't you make an argument that (how could the place it was created in be evil.) I mean it was just dirt, and a mountain of fire, a valcano.

[Attalus]

Time to play the "mental gymnastics" and "convoluted reasoning" cards, SGH. ;)

[Haradrim]

Thanks SGH I will make that argument. Just because Sauron was there doesnt mean that the volcano was evil. I mean it is a natural occurence. Sauron took up residence in that area nd all of a suden its evil? I dont think so. Its just dirt, lava, and rock after all. And the spirit that tainted the gold probably didnt taint the gold but put a spirit embodying the gold into it. THen when Sauron created the ring another evil spirit embodied the ring. So it had two evil spirits embodying it. One for the gold and one for the ring. :)

[BeardofPants]

The land, and the volcano were evil as well.

[Tolkien's Letters no. 131]

But it (the ring) is not unmade, and the Dark Tower built with its aid still stands, empty but not destroyed. So ends the Second Age with the coming of the Numenorean realms and the passing of the last kingship of the High elves.

The Third Age is concerned mainly with the Ring. The Dark Lord is no longer on his throne, but his monsters are not wholly destroyed, and his dreadful servants, slaves of the Ring, endure as shadows among the shadows. Mordor is empty and the Dark Tower void, and a watch is kept upon the borders of the evil land.

Mordor = Black Land. (Old English = Morthor/Murder) In other words, a land of desolation and corruption; "...a land defiled, diseased beyond all healing." A land that had been tainted by the mark of both Morgoth, AND Sauron. (And Mordor WAS caused by the havoc that Morgoth wreaked upon middle-earth.)

[BeardofPants]

More excerpts from Letter no. 131:

But to achieve this he had been obliged to let a great part of his own inherent power (a frequent and very significant motive in myth and fairy-story) pass into the One Ring. While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'. Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. ...There was another weakness: if the One Ring was actually unmade, annihilated, then its power would be dissolved, and Sauron's own being would be diminished to vanishing point, and he would be reduced to a shadow, a mere memory of malicious will.

...

Also so great was the Ring's power of lust, that anyone who used it became mastered by it; it was beyond the strength of any will (even his own) to injure it, cast it away, or neglect it. So he thought. It was in any case on his finger.

....

It ends with the overthrow of Sauron and the destruction of the second visible incarnation of evil. But at a cost, and with one disastrous mistake. Gilgalad and Elendil are slain in the act of slaying Sauron. Isildur, Elendil's son, cuts the ring from Sauron's hand, and his power departs, and his spirit flees into the shadows. But the evil begins to work. Isildur claims the Ring as his own, as ' the Weregild of his father', and refuses to cast it into the Fire nearby. ...

[Haradrim]

okay so the volcano and all of Mordor was evil. But that doesnt make the actual physical object of the ring evil. IT means that it was made in an evil place. Doesnt mean a thing.

[BeardofPants]

Does anyone else feel they're going 'round in circles? :rolleyes:

Haradrim, we have established:


The gold was tainted by evil.
The land was tainted by evil.
The "spirit" of the ring was embodied of evil (the essence of Sauron).
The spells that wrought the ring were evil.


Etc, etc.

Now, we have provided FACTUAL proof of ALL of the above. Textual, documented proof. Enough of the naval gazing. Either you return in kind, and provide documented proof of your circular logic, or let it rest.

[Haradrim]

Oh I concede. :) I guess the ring was evil. Actually I just proved it to myself. SInce Sauron probably got the gold from Mordor and it has been proven that Mordor and its land is evil that means the gold is evil and therefore the ring. I never really meant it all that seriously. I always felt that the ring was evil I just wanted to see if there was any strand of logic that might say otherwise. Alas my wuest has met and end and it was an end in failure. Alas. :) I had fun. Hope everyone else did too. :) and if you didnt I didnt mean to take any fun away. :)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

At last because if the One wasn't evil then you can't really say that the three are good.

[Beren3000]

TD, I'm afraid you've made another opening for Haradrim; now this thread will turn into a discussion of whether the Three were good :D (j/k)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Oh well, it keeps the thread going.

[Haradrim]

Now that you mention it.... Hehehehehe :) Were the three really good? I mean didnt Sauron help in their creation? (if I am wrong please tell me) If Sauron helped couldt he maybe have snuck a little bit of hsi evil and malice into them. And if Morgoth tainted all gold then there rings would have been tainted as well. So maybe the three were evil but their owners were able to control them. But they were still evil. :) HAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHA! YES! :)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

No Sauron didn't help make them, Celembrior (sp.) made them alone as Sauron was not present. I dont think the others were made of gold just the One. For doesn't Gandalf say in A Shadow of teh Past. All rings had a specific gem but not the One the only signs of that was the fire writing.

[Haradrim]

okay but what about the dwarven rings. Wouldnt thos ebe evil cause he helped make those. So he snuck in a little of his evil.

[Attalus]

Yes, the Nine and the Seven (actually, they were virtually the same) were all evil. Not only did Sauron help in their making, when he took the House of the Mirdain and stole them, he corrupted them further and they were accursed. See "The Hunt for the Ring".

[Haradrim]

If the dwarven ones were evil why were they highly sought after by the dwarves? And why did thror give it to thrainand why didnt hrain immediately throw it away?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Because they were stronger tham Men and could resist the pull of the One.

[Attalus]

Besides, they were misled. They didn't think of their Rings as evil, but useful. The Rings of Power looked after themselves. Even Bilbo thought that the Ruling Ring was "very beautiful, and useful at need."

[Haradrim]

Yeah I now can see the light. So the only evil rings were the dwarven ones and the One ring, and the nine. The 3 were good though. Okay Im all set I wont come up with any ridiculous loops of logic anymore.... unless.... :)

[BeardofPants]

*Takes Haradrim aside and gives him a swift kick in the pants just in case* ;)

All of the other rings of power *were* intended to subvert their subjects. However, only the nine and the seven had Sauron's direct meddling, and the elves were stronger and fairer, and more enabled to fight against Sauron, in that they had the good sense to take off their rings when they felt Sauron take up the One Ring.

[edit]Sorry, meant the seven, NOT the three.

[Haradrim]

But he iddnt have any direct meddling with the three. He just meddled with the 7 and 9. ALso Galadriel didnt take off her ring when she flet Sauron according to someone else in this thread.

[Artanis]

Even if Annatar had not directly touched the Three, they were still made after his instructions. It was by his knowledge and help that Celebrimbor and the Eregion Elves were able to make such powerful Rings.

When the Elves became aware of the treason they immediately took their rings off. But I assume they thought it safe to make use of the Rings again after Isildur was killed and the One Ring was lost.

[Beren3000]

Even if Annatar had not directly touched the Three, they were still made after his instructions. It was by his knowledge and help that Celebrimbor and the Eregion Elves were able to make such powerful Rings.
IMO, that doesn't make them evil. I think Sauron (I like how you refer to him as Annatar :) ) gave instructions for the making of the Three for two reasons:
1- After all his seduction and promises to the elves of Eregion, he had to give them something. After all, he wasn't called Annatar (lord of gifts) for no reason ;)
2- He needed to be closely involved in the way all of the rings are made so that he can easily construct the Ruling Ring that can subdue the remaining 19 rings.

[Artanis]

True, I didn't mean to indicate that the 3 Elves rings were evil. It was meant as an explanation on why the One Ring had power over them. :)

[Haradrim]

yeah I assume thats why Galadriel wore her ring because Sauron was not in control of the one so she didnt need to be subdued.

And yeah we have made it through 6 pages. I am so happy. this is my frist forum that has actually continued! Weeee! (giddy) Everyone keep posting! YEAH!

[Attalus]

Though thhe Three were not inherently evil, JRRT described them in the Letters as sinful, because they thwarted the will of Eru that all mortal things wither and pass away.

[Artanis]

Wasn't it rather the act of using them to slow down the effects of time that was sinful, and not the rings themselves? Elrond and Gandalf seem to have used them with other purposes.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Well Gandalf used his to kindle the spirit of fire in other hearts.

[Attalus]

Wasn't it rather the act of using them to slow down the effects of time that was sinful, and not the rings themselves? Elrond and Gandalf seem to have used them with other purposes.Well, according to my theology, sin can only be committed by created beings, so, I would say, yes. We are told that there was no evil in the Three.

[Ragnarok]

but was the ring evil. Not the power of the ring but the littl egolden ring. Was it evil. I think not. I think the poor thing was a victim of circumstance. He was created to hold evil but that doesnt make him evil as he has no choice in the matter. Poor little ring.


"he"?.... I thought a ring is an inanimate object. "IT was created to hold evil" sounds better.

[Sister Golden Hair]

"he"?.... I thought a ring is an inanimate object. "IT was created to hold evil" sounds better.Wouldn't you say that the One Ring was somewhat sentient?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Not enough to be defined he (or she).

[Beren3000]

But I thought we established earlier that the sentience of the Ring was not inherent to it, it came from the "malice and cruelty" of Sauron poured into it. So if Sauron had chosen a ping-pong ball instead of the Ring, the Ring wouldn't be sentient, but the ping-pong ball would :D

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yes but is malice and cruelty either he or she even if it comes from a he or she.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well, I don't think we have to go as far as to give the Ring a gender. :p

[Haradrim]

Wow I thought I ha dconceeded but I guess Ill give i another go.... :)
The ring was an inatimate object. However the gold that made the ring was tainted with some kind of evil not inherent to the ring. So that is not the ring's fault. And therefore I would not call it evil. I would call it a victim of circumstance. ThenSauron makes trhe ring in a place of great evil. I dont see what that has to do with the ring being evil and then he places an evil spirit ino t the ring. So the evilnese embodies the ring. I would say that the ring is not evil but in fact a victim of circumstance. :)

[Haradrim]

ntw if anything had a gender ot would be the spirit embodying the ring but I do not think that senteints means that it has a gender.

[Radagast The Brown]

Fine - the gold was a victim of Sauron. :p (just kidding) The gold, before Sauron messed up with it, had no life, nor mind, and therefore cannot be either evil or good, or a victim.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

For reasons that have already been stated (I don't know how many times) the Ring was evil. It was always trying to get back to Sauron if it wasn't evil then it wouldn't have done and all deeds it was used for were turned to evil.

[Haradrim]

Thats my point. THe ring was inatimite so how could it be evil. Just cuz he placed some spirit inside of it. THe spirit is evil the inatimate thing is still neither. I never meant to szy it was good (tho I probably did :) ) How can some thing be evil it has no mind and you cant give it a mind. You can however put something evil into a inatimait object but does that make the ring evil. THat is the discussion and I personally say no. The power and all the things it did were evil but the inatimate object wasnt evil.

[Radagast The Brown]

Thats my point. THe ring was inatimite so how could it be evil. Just cuz he placed some spirit inside of it. THe spirit is evil the inatimate thing is still neither. I never meant to szy it was good (tho I probably did :) ) How can some thing be evil it has no mind and you cant give it a mind. You can however put something evil into a inatimait object but does that make the ring evil. THat is the discussion and I personally say no. The power and all the things it did were evil but the inatimate object wasnt evil.But does it important that wa sbefore? Can you say that the Nazgul are not evil? They are evil, even though not from the beginnig; the same wqith teh Ring. The gold itself was probably innocent (if you can say sio about gold, without mind), but it doesn't matter because the Ring was evil, after everything it passed.

[Haradrim]

but the NAzgul are evil because they are not just objects that sudddenly got taken over by a hostile mind. They are evil but the ring is not because it has no mind and never had one. The ring is just a place holder fo r the evil.

[Radagast The Brown]

but the NAzgul are evil because they are not just objects that sudddenly got taken over by a hostile mind. They are evil but the ring is not because it has no mind and never had one. The ring is just a place holder fo r the evil.So? I'm sure there were innocent men that wore the Rings.

And it's not like you can now seperate the Ring and its power - they're the same... they're the Ring. Like the Nazgul.

[Haradrim]

But are the power and the ring one and the same. Cuz I mean unless the ring was a creature but its not. The power inhabits the rign like a home. If I was evil and I lived in my home is my home evil. No. Same thing for the ring.

[Radagast The Brown]

Isn't it? Will you nto call Mordor evil (Sauron)? Will you not call Angband (Morgoth) evil? Or Nan Dungorthab (Ungoliant)? And Dol Guldur? They're all evil, I think, and they're houses of evil creatures (if you call the Ainur cretaures).
And I find that the Ring is not like home of the power; you can leave the home, but can the power leave the Ring? No.

[Haradrim]

ah some very good points. I feel like I now have forever been defeated in this matter. (sigh) :( .............:)

[BeardofPants]

Haradrim, don't make me come over there and kick you in the bollocks. :mad: ;)

The ring *is* evil because of that sentience that it displays... it might not be a full evolved chimpanzee, but it certainly is a little more than a gold band. It can change sizes, betray the ring-bearer, and use the bearers to attempt to get back "home" to mordor. Nasty lil' blighter betrayed a few people as well.

[Haradrim]

but the sentient power that in habits the ring made it change sizes not the ring itself. The ring was just a place holder for evil. And though Mordor was evil that was because Sauron had made it evil. IS there any proof that he made the ring evil and not just put a spirit inside of it. If I were to take a bottle and put evil into it. Evil that had sentients and could do things to manipulate the bottle. Would the bottle be evil. No it wouldnt be.

[BeardofPants]

*deja vu*

&%^#! :mad:

Ring. Evil. Gold. Evil. Land. Evil. Morgoth. Evil. Sauron. Evil. :mad:

[Haradrim]

I agree: Morgoth Evil, Sauron Evil, Mordor Evil, but I dont see how that adds up to ring evil. I mean there is this very thin possibility that the ring isnt evil. If you say that the gold was in fact inhabited by evil like a bottle with evil in it and that the ring was the same way then the ring is not evil but everything else about it is evil. :)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

If you say that the Ring housed evil and it wasn't evil it self you could say that about Morgoth and Sauron. The evil was in them so they themselves were evil.

[Haradrim]

no becaus they chose to be evil the ring was made a host without its expressed opinion. Therefore ring not evil but Sauron and Morgoth evil. ITs the difference between inanimate objects and animate objects.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But on numerus occasions Tolkien said that the Ring was trying to get back to Sauron if it wasn't it wouldn't.

[Haradrim]

yes true but wouldnt that be the power inhabiting the ring, like water in a glass, that would try and get back to its master.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

As you are so adamnt that you ar right I will say this as a final thing (for now). All deeds that were done by those who used the Ring were turned to evil which is why Gandalf, Galariel, Aragorn etc. wouldn't take it. Yes the spirit embodying the Ring was the most evil but the ring was marred for it was made in Mordor (a place of evil) and was made by Sauron himself.

[Haradrim]

what, by eru, does its creators alignment and the land it lives in alighnment have to do with anything. Besides the pwoer of the embodying spirt ring that changed the mind of the weilder not the ring.

[Sister Golden Hair]

what, by eru, does its creators alignment and the land it lives in alighnment have to do with anything. Besides the pwoer of the embodying spirt ring that changed the mind of the weilder not the ring.Haradrim, you really do need to read Morgoth's Ring. Look at it this way, as in the order in which it all occurred. Morgoth poured his power into the earth. In doing so, many things became tainted with his evil, including many elements, such as, gold, certian land, and usually not water because of the power and presence of Ulmo, but in some cases, even water. If these things were evil before the existance of the Ring, and these are the things that the Ring was made from and where it was made, then the Ring was evil. It was evil in concept, evil at its creation, and evil in its existance. In a way, you could say that it held the evil of both Sauron and Morgoth.

[Attalus]

I agree: Morgoth Evil, Sauron Evil, Mordor Evil, but I dont see how that adds up to ring evil. I mean there is this very thin possibility that the ring isnt evil. If you say that the gold was in fact inhabited by evil like a bottle with evil in it and that the ring was the same way then the ring is not evil but everything else about it is evil. :)In the first place, there was no "spirit" housed in the Ring. It was a portion of Sauron's power that retained a certain sentience, but that was placed in the material of the Ring when it was made. It is not like Sauron went to the Mordor Pawnshop, bought a ring, and imbued it with his power. It was made evil, with no other purpose. Even in your trivial (to my mind) examples of the water in a bottle or a person in a house your argument falls apart, because element of a bottle's contents and a person living in a house become part and portion of the structure, molecules among the glass molecules, spent air and shed skin cells, in the other. The Ring was EVIL. Designed so, intended so, and made so.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yeah the Ring was made with evil intentions for power and rule over Middle-Earth.

[Haradrim]

okay I will concede for the sake of not seriously ticking people off. :) I dont think Iwill ever change my mind ( becasue I am too stubborn) and neither will oyu guys. So I suggest that we just shake hands and part on this because Ill never give up and neither will you guys and I dont want this to turn into a histile thread. So good job everyone on your persuasive arguments and good reasoning. :)

[Ragnarok]

Thats my point. THe ring was inatimite so how could it be evil. Just cuz he placed some spirit inside of it. THe spirit is evil the inatimate thing is still neither. I never meant to szy it was good (tho I probably did :) ) How can some thing be evil it has no mind and you cant give it a mind. You can however put something evil into a inatimait object but does that make the ring evil. THat is the discussion and I personally say no. The power and all the things it did were evil but the inatimate object wasnt evil.

It became evil when Sauron placed his malice and cruelty into it which made the ring a part of him. That is why Sauron couldn't be in his true form without the ring. I don't recall you arguing that the the ring was an inanimate object therefore it couldn't be evil, until I brought that up. :p

[Attalus]

So good job everyone on your persuasive arguments and good reasoning. :)Thanks, guy and no hard feelings. Just don't start a thread on Balrog wings. :evil:

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

He probably will now you've suggested it.

[Attalus]

:eek: No-o-o-o-o-o-o! :D

[katya]

Hey sorry for butting in but...here's my thoughts:
What is this "evil" you guys are talking about? You speak of gold being tainted by evil, but what is it? Certainly the gold's physical properties haven't changed. It's rather fantastic to say that it was given some sort of spiritual matter, so to speak, that changed it. So what has actually changed about the gold? It's completely subjective.
If Sauron used the ring to evil, it's a tool. By pouring his own evil soul into the ring, it's still just a tool. If I am evil, does that mean that the molecules that make up my body are evil? It's all just imaginary. The atoms making up gold can't be evil. If they are, tell me how. Specifically. Therefore, gold can't be evil.
Tolkien says it's evil. I don't have quite enough understanding of this, but my guess it that either it was a completely subjective thing, and guilty by association, or else just because it was used for some evil purpose.
I guess the only way you could define evil is something that defies Eru. Sauron's self inside the ring was sinful. The matter making up the ring didn't have conciousness, intent- it's incapable of karmic actions.
I think the ring is just a tool. Like the "house" Haradrim mentioned or my soul inside my material body (assuming I have one- I'm not claiming that I do). I'd like to know specifically what changes happen to a particle to make it evil. Objectively.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Here we go again

[Radagast The Brown]

Hey sorry for butting in but...here's my thoughts:
What is this "evil" you guys are talking about? You speak of gold being tainted by evil, but what is it? Certainly the gold's physical properties haven't changed. It's rather fantastic to say that it was given some sort of spiritual matter, so to speak, that changed it. So what has actually changed about the gold? It's completely subjective.
If Sauron used the ring to evil, it's a tool. By pouring his own evil soul into the ring, it's still just a tool. If I am evil, does that mean that the molecules that make up my body are evil? It's all just imaginary. The atoms making up gold can't be evil. If they are, tell me how. Specifically. Therefore, gold can't be evil.You can't really use science here, because it's a fantasy - and doesn't work like the actual things... example - the sun in tolkien is the flower of a tree, carried by a maia.

It's a tool, yes, but one that worked on it's own, from the moment it left its master. It created Gollum - Gollum was evil in my opinion, although I suppose others can disagree. The Ring twisted the former Smeagol, that was apparently a hobbit. See what we've got? Without the Ring Gollum be dead by that time, but happy as he lived.


Tolkien says it's evil. I don't have quite enough understanding of this, but my guess it that either it was a completely subjective thing, and guilty by association, or else just because it was used for some evil purpose.
I guess the only way you could define evil is something that defies Eru. Sauron's self inside the ring was sinful. The matter making up the ring didn't have conciousness, intent- it's incapable of karmic actions.
I think the ring is just a tool. Like the "house" Haradrim mentioned or my soul inside my material body (assuming I have one- I'm not claiming that I do). I'd like to know specifically what changes happen to a particle to make it evil. Objectively.I agree that the gold itself can't really be evil... as it has no thoughts. But the power in the Ring was evil, and you agree. It was no longer Sauron's power from the moment the ring wasn't his. That power couldn't leave the gold itself as well... which, for me, means it's a part of the ring, with the gold. Which means the Ring was evil, and not in the control of someone else - it was evil, just like the Nazgul were - or now you're going to say they aren't?

[Attalus]

Concur heartily. The Ring was a magical artifact. Magic is either Black or White, whatever relativists might say. Any good action of the Ring's like saving Bilbo from the Sackville-Baggins was incidental, just the cheese in the trap.

[katya]

Yeah, the ring was evil. Just like an evil man (being?). Any personallity that the ring had was evil too. But I don't believe in evil metal. So while The Ring was evil, the ring wasn't evil.

[Haradrim]

Im and not going to get started in this again. But I am glad that someone is joining the cause. And we have made it to 8 pages. And no hard feelings. I just hope things dont get out of hand with constant flaming and stuff. That would be too bad so evewryone play nice. :)



Do Balrogs have wings...... :)?

[BeardofPants]

Actually Katya, you are wrong. The GOLD is tainted by evil. This was posted earlier on in the thread from several excerpts from Morgoth's Ring (in which Morgoth's ring IS middle earth, and his evil de-marked gold even more-so, and is partly the reason that Sauron *could* make a ring of power that powerful.)

[Attalus]

So while The Ring was evil, the ring wasn't evil.This makes absolutely no sense. Once again, you folks think you are confuting our arguments with bare assertions of your beliefs without any supporting quotes or any logic, whatsoever.

[Attalus]

Do Balrogs have wings...... :)?Yes, they do. Quotes available on request.

[Haradrim]

I know Balrogs have wings I was just amking a joke because someone earlier said I hope he doesnt argue about Balrog's Wings so I made a joke of it. Sorry if it was misinterpreted.

[Attalus]

It wasn't misinterpreted. I guess I shoud have added a smiley: ;) ;) :D

[Haradrim]

oki;lyy dokily thanks for the hints! :)

[katya]

Ok, ok, so I guess if Tolkien says the gold is tainted by evil, then it must be. After all, it is a fantasy, and he's the boss. When you write a story, you are the one who creates the universe. So, I guess I'll accept that the gold is evil. But it's still impossible. Because gold can't be evil. I don't think so anyway.
When I said "The Ring is evil, but the ring wasn't evil", I meant that the ring as a person or entity was evil, but the gold wasn't. However, I will retract that statement as I do accept the gold to be evil. Even though it's silly.
This is funny!^^

[Haradrim]

the gold can be evil because Melkor tainted it with his evil . SO the gold is evil. The ring is evil and the power fo the ring is evil. and yes I have switrched positions for the moment. If someonee comes along with good evidence supporting rign nonevilness Ill switch again. :)

[BeardofPants]

I hope you mean wings of shadow, Attalus! ;)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But even if the gold wasn't evil the Ring still would be because the spirit in the Ring was part of the Ring that couldn't be taken out

[Haradrim]

I totally and only whole-heartledly agree! The god was taitned. THe gold mde the ring and and the ring was tainted. A spirit is put into ring ring becomes more vil. EVrything ise vil!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHhahhehehehehhhooo......

[BeardofPants]

Man, you two are annoying. :rolleyes:

[Elanor the Fair]

Gold as a pure metal is extremely malleable and as such cannot be used to make jewellery. Usually, other subtances such as stronger metals are added to give the gold strength.

When the Ring was made there would have been more to it than just pure gold. One thing we do know is, if Middle-Earth is our Earth then the characteristics of its elements, including gold, would be the same. In other words, you would not be able to make the ring out of pure gold - fantasy novel or not.

Sauron, therefore, would have needed to strengthen the gold. Maybe Sauron's cruelty and malice were strong enough to do this without adding other metals. This would not necessarily make the pure gold evil, but the gold mixture that the ring was made from.

So, in a way, Katya, you are correct. :)

[Haradrim]

ah but by strengthening it with his malice and evil combines the evil with the gold making the gold evil.

[Elanor the Fair]

ah but by strengthening it with his malice and evil combines the evil with the gold making the gold evil.

Or perhaps it makes the evil golden!! :)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Ah but the question is 'Was the Ring Evil' the answer to that is yes.

[Radagast The Brown]

Indeed. :)

I have a question... What did the gold do that it's evil? :confused: Only becasue Tolkien said so? I mean... it can't really move or do anything bad, or to think of evil as it doesn't have a mind... why is it evil? Is it reallly only because Tolkein said so?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Indeed. :)

I have a question... What did the gold do that it's evil? :confused: Only becasue Tolkien said so? I mean... it can't really move or do anything bad, or to think of evil as it doesn't have a mind... why is it evil? Is it reallly only because Tolkein said so?It is because Tolkien says that Morgoth was evil, and Morgoth placed his evil into the earth and tainted many things with his evil, gold being one of them. The Earth is Morgoth's Ring.

[Attalus]

I hope you mean wings of shadow, Attalus! ;)Of course. As I have argued REPEATEDLY, what are Balrogs made of, anyway? Not flesh and sinew, certainly, but fire, smoke, and shadow, animated by a Maiar spirit.

[Thorin II]

This does lead to the interesting question of what type of evil activities the Ring could actually perform. Did it have the power to move? Tolkien writes that it has its own will, but in my opinion, he's vague as to how the will manifests itself.

[Thorin II]

Of course. As I have argued REPEATEDLY, what are Balrogs made of, anyway? Not flesh and sinew, certainly, but fire, smoke, and shadow, animated by a Maiar spirit.

Ah, the Balrog argument rears its ugly head again... ;)

[Attalus]

This does lead to the interesting question of what type of evil activities the Ring could actually perform. Did it have the power to move? Tolkien writes that it has its own will, but in my opinion, he's vague as to how the will manifests itself.Well, it could enslave the other Ringbearers, waste Hobbits (or proto-Hobbits ;) ) into ghastly caricatures of themselves, tempt anyone to perform violent or evil deeds to possess it, unnaturally prolong mortal life and decieve mortal eyes by conferring invisbility, and call out to other evil creatures to aid it.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Thorin II

This does lead to the interesting question of what type of evil activities the Ring could actually perform. Did it have the power to move? Tolkien writes that it has its own will, but in my opinion, he's vague as to how the will manifests itself.I don't think it had the power to move. It did have the ability to expand and shrink in size, causing it to fall off of the bearer at appropriate times in order to find its way back to its master.
and call out to other evil creatures to aid it.I've never read that doc. Where does it say that? :)

[Attalus]

I've never read that doc. Where does it say that? :)
Hah, asked one I could answer. From Unfinished Tales, "The Disaster of the Gladden Fields:" The Orcs of the Mountains were stiffened commanded by grim servants of Barad-dûr, sent out long before to watch the passes, and though it was unknown to them the Ring, cut off from his black hand two years before, was still laden with Sauron's evil will and called to all his servants for their aid.Edit-typo

[Sister Golden Hair]

Aha! Thanks. Maybe I have read that. Been sometime since I read UT. :)

[Attalus]

You are quite welcome, :D

[katya]

Geez, I missed a lot by going to work today. *sigh*
Indeed. :)

I have a question... What did the gold do that it's evil? :confused: Only becasue Tolkien said so? I mean... it can't really move or do anything bad, or to think of evil as it doesn't have a mind... why is it evil? Is it reallly only because Tolkein said so?
That's what I'm saying, dude! That's really the only reason that the gold can be evil. Because Tolkien said so. Other than that, there's no way. Unless Morgoth put his evil into the gold. But still, what would that be? I sure can't put "happy" into my jewelry. I can't put my "PMS" into the clay in my backyard. That's it, Morgoth spiked the gold. Or something. Spike the punch, spike the gold...with evil....that's just too weird.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Geez, I missed a lot by going to work today. *sigh*

That's what I'm saying, dude! That's really the only reason that the gold can be evil. Because Tolkien said so. Other than that, there's no way. Unless Morgoth put his evil into the gold. But still, what would that be? I sure can't put "happy" into my jewelry. I can't put my "PMS" into the clay in my backyard. That's it, Morgoth spiked the gold. Or something. Spike the punch, spike the gold...with evil....that's just too weird.Morgoth's Ring folks! Morgoth's Ring. :p :)

[Haradrim]

Nut KAtya Morgoth did put his evil into the ring and no offense but you are not a dark lord of shadow so there is a big difference. But Attalus. I dont remember the ring enslaving the other ringbearers. I remember Sauron using the ring to do that. Also the ring didnt call evil to it it could be used to call evil to it. It did shrink but that is not an evil thing to do. Immortality. Damn the ring cuz who would ever want that. Invisiblity how could you! You evil evil evil... oh wait thats not evil. And it made people strongly desire it. The ring doesnt make peopl ekil for it it just makes them like the ring a lot. THe person commits the evil not ther ring. :)

[Radagast The Brown]

Nut KAtya Morgoth did put his evil into the ring and no offense but you are not a dark lord of shadow so there is a big difference. But Attalus. I dont remember the ring enslaving the other ringbearers. I remember Sauron using the ring to do that. Also the ring didnt call evil to it it could be used to call evil to it. It did shrink but that is not an evil thing to do. Immortality. Damn the ring cuz who would ever want that. Invisiblity how could you! You evil evil evil... oh wait thats not evil. And it made people strongly desire it. The ring doesnt make peopl ekil for it it just makes them like the ring a lot. THe person commits the evil not ther ring. :)But look what it did to Gollum - after 600 hundred years bearing it, he became to be an evil creature from a hobbit (Stoor, I think?). And Gollum was evil, in my opinion. You can say even enslaved to the Ring, as he could not live without it.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Gollum bore it for 500 years :p. But I still no what you mean. The Ring made people commit the evil like Smeagol killed Deagol.

[Fat middle]

The Ring has a will.

When Sauron made the Ring he passed a part of his own self to the ring:

Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age:
And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency

Therefore it can be evil. Even more, it is evil.

LOTR: The Council Of Elrond:
That we now know too well. It belongs to Sauron and was made by him alone, and is altogether evil.

[Attalus]

Thanks, FM, I'm glad somebody finally quoted that. But Attalus. I dont remember the ring enslaving the other ringbearers. I remember Sauron using the ring to do that. Also the ring didnt call evil to it it could be used to call evil to it. It did shrink but that is not an evil thing to do. Immortality. Damn the ring cuz who would ever want that. Invisiblity how could you! You evil evil evil... oh wait thats not evil. And it made people strongly desire it. The ring doesnt make peopl ekil for it it just makes them like the ring a lot. THe person commits the evil not ther ring. :)As Radagast said so trenchantly, the Ring indeed enslaved Gollum, and would have Bilbo except that he took it up with good intentions and used it little. And it was not a true immortality. As Gandalf said, its Bearer did not obtain more life, but kept on living, unnaturally. If Bilbo had kept it longer, he would have become another Gollum, IMHO. Ultimately, another of Sauron's deceits, and contrary to the will of Eru.

[Attalus]

Oh, and invisibility is also unnatural, forcing things against their nature, intrinsically evil. Yet another of Sauron's deceits.

[katya]

Nut Katya Morgoth did put his evil into the ring and no offense but you are not a dark lord of shadow so there is a big difference.
I'm not? Aw..... :( :D
Morgoth's Ring folks! Morgoth's Ring.
I know! I know! I think I'm being a little misunderstood.

What I mean is, even if I was a dark lord of shadow (or had an equal amount of power), I can't imagine what would happen if I tried to taint gold with evil. The comparisons I made really weren't that much different. It's just silly. (Oh yeah, and sorry if I didn't make much sense, because I was really tired yesterday after work.)

So anyway, here's my stance:
The ring is evil. Through and through. The gold that makes the ring (and whatever else is in it) is evil. Period.

The gold is and always has been evil.

However, logically, it is impossible. I don't believe in evil metal any more than I believe in hobbits. Probably less. In the story, just as hobbits exist, so does evil-tainted gold.

[Attalus]

It's a fantasy story, not a chemistry or metallurgics course. Everything about the Ring is evil, except for its beauty, and that is the beauty of the succubus. The medievals had a word for it, which we still use shorn of most of its original meaning: glamour, meaning a seductive appearance hiding a deadly danger or trap. Men or women were said to be englamoured, meaning much the same as bewitched.

[katya]

Of course it's evil, that's what I just said. It sounds nice, for a fantasy story, so why not? I'm just saying, beyond sounding nice, it doesn't make sense. It just is [true].

[Sister Golden Hair]

Of course it's evil, that's what I just said. It sounds nice, for a fantasy story, so why not? I'm just saying, beyond sounding nice, it doesn't make sense. It just is [true].Well, it makes as much sense as demonic possession, if you can believe in that.

[Radagast The Brown]

There was another evil metal in Tolkein's books - the sword of Turin, made by a meteor I think.. It was evil, and I think it actually talked to Turin before he suicided.
I can't quite the Sil, as I don't have it with me, but Melian says it's evil, and Turin says so too.

so, my point is that if you like it or not, Tolkein jhas in his stories evil objects. :)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yeah Turn's sword was one of two made by Eol.

[Sister Golden Hair]

There was another evil metal in Tolkein's books - the sword of Turin, made by a meteor I think.. It was evil, and I think it actually talked to Turin before he suicided.
I can't quite the Sil, as I don't have it with me, but Melian says it's evil, and Turin says so too.

so, my point is that if you like it or not, Tolkein jhas in his stories evil objects. :)Yes RTB, it says somewhere that the spirit of the smithy (Eol) was in Anglachel.

[Attalus]

There was another evil metal in Tolkein's books - the sword of Turin, made by a meteor I think.. It was evil, and I think it actually talked to Turin before he suicided.
I can't quite the Sil, as I don't have it with me, but Melian says it's evil, and Turin says so too.

so, my point is that if you like it or not, Tolkein jhas in his stories evil objects. :)
Yep, you are correct: And from the blade rang a cold voice in answer: 'Yea, I will drink thy blood gladly, that I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and the blood of Brandir slain unjustly.'I suspect that people that don't beleive that magical objects are evil do not believe in Evil in the first place.

[Haradrim]

I agree with the fact that the ring is evil now but I stil cant find a deed it actually did that was evil. The ring didnt make Smeagol kill Deagol. It juts made Smeagol desire it enough to kill Deagol. Why would the ring have cared which of the two it ensnared. It made his life stretch out for a long time. Possiblyu indefinately if he had kept it. While this isnt good why is it evil? Stretching out someones life isnt evil it isnt good but why is it evil. Also Smeagol could have given up the ring. he just didnt have the will power to do it. Almost no one would have been able to but it was possible to give up the ring as long as you had enough will power. I cant find a deed I would describe as evil to put on the ring. If someone can point out why these acts were evil or an act it did that was evil then I will believe it. I think the ring is evil but I just want to find an act it did that was evil.

[BeardofPants]

Smeagol killed Deagol for the ring. That is proof enough that the ring had undue influence over Smeagol. Remember, Smeagol-gollum followed Frodo half-way across middle-earth to reclaim the ring, and even at the end, could not willingly give it up. He plotted with Shelob to kill the hobbits for the ring. There is no proof before the advent of the ring that Smeagol would have been capable of these actions. One can only conclude that the ring (which we know is capable of great evil) exercised its will over Gollum. Now stop this silliness.

[Haradrim]

You said it in your first sentence. Smeagol killed Deagol. THe ring just made people desire it strongly. I dont remember Bilbo killing Gollum for the ring. I dont remember Sam killing frodo fro the ring or Merry or Pipen killing Frodo. Deagol and Smeagol were best friends and so were Sam and Frodo. So why didnt Sam becasue he wasnt capable of it. Smeagol was. ANd why would the ring have made Smeagol kill Deagol? What did it matter to the ring?

[BeardofPants]

You know what? I can't be bothered with this anymore. You don't debate properly - you just throw stuff out there without backing it up textually, and you switch sides more times than a monkey after a banana. I'm done. Somebody else can pick this apart. :rolleyes: :mad:

[katya]

Well, it makes as much sense as demonic possession, if you can believe in that.
Well, no one's saying I do, but.... You could compare Sauron's evil possessing the ring to a demonic possession, but are you saying the gold itself is that way too? Was the gold, so to speak, demonically possessed (in a way) by Morgoth? In a possession, a person has a spirit of some sort in their body right? So was some of Morgoth's "spirit" in the gold? That I would buy. That's logical, though still a fantasy.
Of course, the reason for wanting to do that I don't know. As far as I know, the gold was never "used", like say, the "spirit" inside didn't cause the gold to do anything. Is that right?
I guess you can put a "spirit" inside gold, or a ring, but not just "evil".

Apart from all that though, I hope people understand (well, now that I'm telling you) that I'm honestly just throwing my ideas out there. I'm just trying to figure it all out. I for one am having fun, and I hope everyone else is too!^^

[Haradrim]

Yeah same here. I ws just trying to have a good time and if anyone was having the opposite I truly apologize. I too was just throing ideas out there and I was just advocating them in the best way I can. SOrry if I offened anyone.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Look at the long life the Ring gave Gollum and what it turned him into, surely that is evil, if a person had done that you'd call him evil wouldn't you.

[Haradrim]

but why is that evil. Prolonged life isnt evil. Its not something everyone wants but its not evil. And GOllum became the way he was because he decided to kill Deagol for the ring. THe ring didnt make him do it.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

The lust the Ring gives off does. Would Smeagol have killed Deagol if he hadn't found the Ring or if Deagol had put it straight in his pocket so no one would see it. Prolonged life may not be evil but what it did to Gollum was.

[Haradrim]

okay now I agree. I have thought it over. And yes making gollum into what he ws was evil. I jsust wanted to find an instance where it did something evil and now I have it. Thanks T.D. :)

[Radagast The Brown]

okay now I agree. I have thought it over. And yes making gollum into what he ws was evil. I jsust wanted to find an instance where it did something evil and now I have it. Thanks T.D. :)Why did you have to argue then? I mentioned it in post number 178.

[Attalus]

Why did you have to argue then? I mentioned it in post number 178.LOl, me, too, though I don't remember when. Extended life is not necessarily good. Visit any nursing home, and you will quickly see that. Gollum's life with the Ring was not a happy one. "Miserable creature" is Gandalf's apt description.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Plus it was unnatural long life so not just that of the elves

[Haradrim]

but why was it evil. It wasnt good it wasnt evil it just was. Unnatural life is unnatural that is it. unnatural doesnt mean good or evil. And sorry about not finding I lfet for awhile and just now found the time to go back trhough what I missed.

[Radagast The Brown]

but why was it evil. It wasnt good it wasnt evil it just was. Unnatural life is unnatural that is it. unnatural doesnt mean good or evil. And sorry about not finding I lfet for awhile and just now found the time to go back trhough what I missed.First, unnatural is usually unhealthy as well. But anyway, it doesn't matter! The Ring was evil, it was proven, now this thread needs to be closed.:p

[Attalus]

but why was it evil. It wasnt good it wasnt evil it just was. Unnatural life is unnatural that is it. unnatural doesnt mean good or evil. And sorry about not finding I lfet for awhile and just now found the time to go back trhough what I missed.
That is your original argument, thoroughly rebutted, long before. If you are going to start circular reasoning, I won't reply to you any more. This is just silly. The thing that betrayed Isildur, destroyed Gollum, and ravaged Frodo not evil? I think that you would have fallen worse than Boromir, and somewhere there is a succubus waiting for you. Learn to recognize evil. It sometimes looks beautiful.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I think everything has been said on this subject that can be said. We are going around in circles and it is getting silly. Closing.