Why Aragorn?

[Haradrim]

This is probably answered somewhere but why didnt Arathorn take up the throne. WHy didnt any of Aragorn's fore-fathers take up the throne? I mean Aragorn is a great first king and all but wouldn't it make sense for any of Aragorns fore-fathers to have reclaimed the throne. THis is probably answered somewhere very obviously but I cant find it so either someone tell me straight up what the answer is or discuss. :)

[Valandil]

Read Appendix A... one of his ancestors tried it a thousand years before... while they still had a country up in the North. After they were rejected then, there was no chance of Gondor giving the throne up to a wandering vagabond over a small, scattered people - just because his ancestors had once been kings. At least not until Aragorn came along and saved their skins. :D

[Earniel]

At least not until Aragorn came along and saved their skins. :D
That ussually tends to change people's perspective quite quickly enough, saving their skins from the evil hoards... :p

Imagine Aragorn had come before the Gondorean Council and Denethor the way he appeared to the Hobbits in the Prancing Pony. He wouldn't have had a chance.

[Valandil]

Imagine Aragorn had come before the Gondorean Council and Denethor the way he appeared to the Hobbits in the Prancing Pony. He wouldn't have had a chance.

Not even with that fine broken sword of his... ;)

[Haradrim]

so in fact the line of stweards and the people of Gondor were all snooty and upstuck and they didnt care if they would have been happier with a king. Especially when Aragorn came cuz he would have done something about that whole Sauron regrouping hsi froeces thing. SO in conclusion... blame GONDOR. :)

[Radagast The Brown]

Who says they would be happier with a King? Also, I don't think they counted the Dunedain of the North as their 'potential' kings.. I mean, it doesn't seem like Boromir knows what's going on in the outside world.

[Haradrim]

yeah I guess. But still its their own fault for secluding themselves ya know. So if they had opened up to outsiders then they would have heard rumours of the line of kings maybe met a couple of them and then gradually over the years the kingship could be reinstated. SO to reiterate Gondors fault. :)

[Valandil]

Guess they just expected more in the way of a visible, powerful appearance from a potential king (this is starting to sound familiar... ;) ). Not looking for someone from what appeared to be a humble birth. :D

OTOH, I've wondered if Aragorn had a chance years earlier... in his days as 'Thorongil'! (more reason to check out Appendix A... good reading! :) )

[Haradrim]

Wow this kind of sounds like King Arthur where some people were on his side but not all and he had to prove himself in battle to get his followers. Kinda funny but then TOlkien was drawing on a lot of stuff from ancient tales and myths so its reasonable King Arthur would be in there.


Also its my 100th post! YEAH! Hoo Hoo Hoo Hoo! Go HAradrim its your brithday, get funky ,put your thing down, go go go go go! YEAH!!!!!!

[Earniel]

Not even with that fine broken sword of his... ;)

Ow, I wish I could forget all I read about medieval symbolism and hidden meanings regarding swords... Must get mind out of gutter, must get mind out of gutter, must get mind out of gutter .... :eek:

In any case, it was rather convenient for Gondor that the man who:
saved their hides from the Hordes of Evil;
rode at the head of the Undead army (in Pelargir, mind you, but the word would have reached Minas Tirith sooner or later anyhow);
was best friends with the only allied king they had left, not to mention friends with all the High Elves you could still find in Middle-earth;
and who would bring a killer queen to Gondor,

.... also was of royal blood so they didn't have to worry about putting a peasant on the throne.

You know, thinking back, this Aragorn fellow is just too good to be true... ;)

[Haradrim]

Very good. However the king of the dead thing was open to anyone with the line of ISildur so that and kingship are one. But all the others are a littl etoo good to be true

[Attalus]

Aragorn was the only one left in Middle-earth of the Line of Isildur. Oh, and his healing the wounded after the battle won him many hearts.

[Olmer]

WHy didnt any of Aragorn's fore-fathers take up the throne? I mean Aragorn is a great first king and all but wouldn't it make sense for any of Aragorns fore-fathers to have reclaimed the throne.
Because the Elves said that their time did not come, and did not move a finger to help them. So the heirs of Isildur lived all their lives and died as plain Rangers, because for the Elves it was not politicaly beneficial.
Don't forget that even Aragorn was told that he has yet to earn the heirloom of Arnor, and for 30 years he was recklessly tried to prove that he is worthy of honor. ( Like he doesn't have the lawfull right by being the heir of the last King of Arnor!) He, probably, would live and die, as his 15 predecessors, hoping that "his time will come", if he wouldn't hopelessly fell in love.This un undestructable love impelled him to take some actions to get Sauron out of his comfortable ignorance.
The *** hit the fan, speeding up the events. Suddenly, the 3 Rings turned out under the treat to be exposed. Elves had to turn to the "crisis plan" for their protection: work in direction of putting on the throne of the most powerful neighboring coutry a Man, who will be loyal and protective to the diminishing Elves.
Aragorn would never got to nowhere if the Elves would still thought that "the time did not come yet".
Without reforged by the Elves sword and ,the most important ,without the tip on the only true detector of his ligimacy as a successor of Numenorian Kings, the Stone of Erech, he would hardly win the battle for Gondor.

This is in the nutshell.The discussion in details probably will be too hard to stomach for the siding to "the nice elves" theory Mooters. :p

[Olmer]

Aragorn was the only one left in Middle-earth of the Line of Isildur.
Nope. All circumstance evidence is pointing out that he had a son or a brother.

[Beren3000]

I'd be interested to hear this evidence, Olmer.

[Haradrim]

Wait Olmer are you saying he had a son before Arwen. Also where was hi sbrother during all of this? Was he hiding in some hole iun the ground withthe other rangers or was he on some quest that Aragorn gave him. If he had a son and brother I would be upset with JRRT because that makes no sense unless there is some really good reason.

[Artanis]

Read Appendix A... one of his ancestors tried it a thousand years before... while they still had a country up in the North. After they were rejected then, there was no chance of Gondor giving the throne up to a wandering vagabond over a small, scattered people - just because his ancestors had once been kings. At least not until Aragorn came along and saved their skins. :DVal has a good point. They couldn't just walk up to Gondor and claim the throne, in a country where the line of the Steward is proud and strong, where people are perfectly happy with the way things are. They didn't want to cause an uproar and mischief. The main point with having the rightful King back on the throne would be to unite the world of Men once more, not to divide them into one Steward camp and one King camp. Aragorn's ancestors wisely waited - and their life wasn't that miserable. What about being brought up in Rivendell? Something to envy, I would say. :)

Aragorn himself was very careful not to reveal his true identity and claim anything for himself. He didn't even want to enter the city after the Pelennor battle, the only reason he did so was to help Faramir, Eowyn and Merry.

[Haradrim]

Were all of Aragorns ancestors raised in Rivendell? I thought only Aragorn was raised there and that his mother brought him there to protect him.

[Artanis]

I don't remember the reference, but it is said somewhere that it was a tradition of Rivendell to take care of the families of the descendants of Isildur from the North Kingdom. :) I'll try to find the reference later today.

[Valandil]

I don't remember the reference, but it is said somewhere that it was a tradition of Rivendell to take care of the families of the descendants of Isildur from the North Kingdom. :) I'll try to find the reference later today.

Appendix A... ;)

[Artanis]

Thanks Val! Here it is: After Arvedui the North-kingdom ended, for the Dúnedain were now few and all the peoples of Eriador diminished. Yet the line of the kings was continued by the Chieftains of the Dúnedain, of whom Aranarth son of Arvedui was the first. Arahael his son was fostered in Rivendell, and so were all the sons of the chieftains after him; and there also were kept the heirlooms of their house: the ring of Barahir, the shards of Narsil, the star of Elendil, and the sceptre of Annúminas.

[Haradrim]

Thanks for the reference but what is the Star of Elendil and the sceptre of Annuminas?

[Valandil]

Thanks for the reference but what is the Star of Elendil and the sceptre of Annuminas?

Alas... but a footnote in Appendix A (someone stop me! :D )

[Haradrim]

You mean it doesnt explain it! WHy would Tolkien do that to us! NOOOOOO! I ReFUSE TO BELIEVE IT! IT CANT BE TRUE! AHHHHHHHHHHH! (death) fooled ya!

[Valandil]

Not sure from your response if I was totally clear... those two items ARE mentioned in a footnote in Appendix A. The same footnote - and a rather large one. :)

[Haradrim]

thanks a bundle. I am going to start readin Appendix A as soon as I finish SIlmaril. Every time I ask a question people refer me too Appendix A so I think Ill check it out. Or I could just keep bugging you people who have read them until I have basically read them all.

But why did the elves think it wasnt the time for Aragorn. If they had reinstated the line of kings then GOndor would have been in a much better situation and more defenses would have bveen made. I dont even know if Sauron would have been allowed to get where he was if the line had been reinstated sooner.

[Lefty Scaevola]

In Arvedui's time, Gondor (its steward and council) choose a Earnil, a local but more distant heir, but one succesful in its army, in preference over the the claim of Arvedui through Isildur and his wife (daughter od Odenther). This set a precendent (and Gondor was very respectful of precendents) even after they had run out of heir 2 genrations later. Said precedent and the ambitions of the stewards blocked the northern line until Aragorn. The additional factors at that time for Aragorn were: the greater need of Gondor, His formally claimming through Elendil rather that Isildur, and his record of service with Gondor's armies, both recently and as Thoringil in his youth.

[Haradrim]

I guess I understand why Aragorn was the first but why couldnt the White COuncil as soon as they knew that Sauron was rising put Aragorn in the throne. Because they could have. And then the war of the ring becomes a lot easier because Aragorn would not be corrupted. He would have helped out against Saruman making it so that they could take the pass of Rohan and then wait in GOndor until the battle is over and then waltz up to <ount Doom and drop the ring in. I know Ive oversimplifyed it. :)

[Radagast The Brown]

I can't really see how would Aragorn help them from the throne so much... and can't see how the White Council will 'put' him in the throne.
Plus, they wouldn't win Sauron in war - and will likely lose to Saruman as well, as they won't be in Helm's Deep because Warmtongue was still affecting Theoden. And the fellowship wouldn'yt have a leader without Aragorn after Gandalf dies in Moria - probably Boromir will be then, and it'll destroy the journey, I suppsoe.

[Earniel]

I doubt the White Council had any authority to put Aragorn on the throne. Denethor would never had allowed such meddling in the state affairs of Gondor, and rightly so.

And how was Aragorn corrupted in the war of the ring? :confused:

Besides, even if Aragorn sat on the throne of Gondor, he wouldn't have been able to aid Rohan at all. Gondor needed to defend its own boundaries, they had no men to spare to send to Rohan. Otherwise they would never have send the red arrow to Théoden.

If Aragorn had been in Gondor, he had been quite stuck there with no possibility of getting allied forces to Gondor to help defend it. He could never have summoned the Oathbreakers to capture the corsair fleet of Umbar.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Plus before The War of the Ring and the danger that Gondor was in wasn't Aragorn happy to be chieftan of the Dunedain.

[Haradrim]

Okay Ill by that Aragorn cam precisely when he was needed. Thanks evryone. :)

[Olmer]

I'd be interested to hear this evidence, Olmer.
Halbarad.
Do you know the difference between "one of his kin", and "one of his kindred"? Read closely.
Considering that fostered in Rivendell Chieftains of the Dunedain led very dangerous life, almost daily putting their life under the risk, and still for all 1000 years the line of the kings miraculously continued, you can't help not to wonder was it something else behind the such apparent carelessness?
The answer is in description of Aragorn's youth, which was TYPICAL for all living in Imladris kids-Dunadan: they had no idea who they are. Which suggests that at the time it was not just one heir running around (otherwise even under the different name the enemy's spies would figure out who is the heir of Isildur), but a group of kids closely related by the blood. When the time was coming to replace the killed in the raid Chieftan Elrond himself were announcing the new Chieftan pickin him out of many "alternative options": it could be a brother, cousin or son, the most important he has to have Isildur's blood in his veins.

[Haradrim]

So you are saying that Aragorn didnt have a direct line to ISildur? That seems highly unbelievable because if you check the records in the Appendices Aragron is straight down the great-great-great etc. something grandson of Isildur. Mayb ethe elves would have mainpulated but Tolkien wouldnt have lied about it. Also you mentioned him having another son and a brother but you didnt answer about those.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Aragorn definitly is direct from Isildur himself as even Elronds states this in CoE.

[Haradrim]

Thanks for backing me up T.D! Can I call you that? :)

[Earniel]

Halbarad.
Do you know the difference between "one of his kin", and "one of his kindred"? Read closely.
Considering that fostered in Rivendell Chieftains of the Dunedain led very dangerous life, almost daily putting their life under the risk, and still for all 1000 years the line of the kings miraculously continued, you can't help not to wonder was it something else behind the such apparent carelessness?
The answer is in description of Aragorn's youth, which was TYPICAL for all living in Imladris kids-Dunadan: they had no idea who they are. Which suggests that at the time it was not just one heir running around (otherwise even under the different name the enemy's spies would figure out who is the heir of Isildur), but a group of kids closely related by the blood. When the time was coming to replace the killed in the raid Chieftan Elrond himself were announcing the new Chieftan pickin him out of many "alternative options": it could be a brother, cousin or son, the most important he has to have Isildur's blood in his veins.
Interesting theory but I'm not so sure. I trust the Dúnedain knew very well the state and members of their royal house so I doubt there would be any close relative of Aragorn that was also a direct heir that they didn't know about. Furthermore I doubt they would have left the choosing of a new chieftain to Elrond, they would have chosen him themselves. They might have respected Elrond and heeded his counsel but I doubt they were that far gone that they would let him decide on their own chieftains.

Now, to consider the options of another direct heir, I'd say it couldn't have been a cousin. Because if there had been one, Ivorwen wouldn't have insisted on Gilraen's marriage with Arathorn the way she did when Gilraen was considered still too young at the time of marriage. That indicates to me that Arathorn was the last heir of the royal line and that with his death the line would have died out if he hadn't produced an heir before that.

Aragorn couldn't have had a son of his own, do you honestly believe Elrond would have given him Arwen as wife if Aragorn had a son and a woman somewhere already? It would have been an unforgivable insult to Arwen and Elrond had too high a regard for his daughter to do that to her.

Now a brother or a sister to Aragorn would be a better possibility even though Arathorn died when Aragorn was but two so that leaves a very small time limit. On the other hand, if he had had a sibling I find it impossible that that said sibling would remain unmentioned at all.

I also wouldn't make the asumption that all Dúnedain children raised in Rivendell were unaware of their decent and kin until Elrond told them. I'm guessing Aragorn was an exeption because he was the last of the line. It was Elrond's request, not order, that Aragorn was told nothing before the time was ripe. If Arathorn had lived longer, I doubt there would have been need to hide Aragorn's lineage until his twenty years.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I remember reading somethingg about Gilraen taking Aragorn to Rivedell to protect him and keep the line of Isildur alive.

[Thorin II]

Another thing to remember is that until Denethor lost his marbles, Gondor was in pretty good shape with him in charge. Boromir and Faramir were great captains and Denethor was a wise leader. Aragorn was the rightful leader, but apart from his greatness, the reason he was needed was that the Steward had gone batty.

[Attalus]

As Gandalf put it, 'in the days of the wisdom or Denethor'.

[Haradrim]

well people certainly seem to know their stuff here. Thansk everyone for niucley answering my question. :)

[Olmer]

I was browsing through I found that somehow I missed to respond on Earniel's posting, who was invested in time to contradict my humble suggestions. :)
I’m sorry for my inattentiveness , which is due to my preoccupation with other matters. :o
Here I’m giving my POV on your response.
I trust the Dúnedain knew very well the state and members of their royal house so I doubt there would be any close relative of Aragorn that was also a direct heir that they didn't know about.

If they knew very well the state and members of royal house, how come that Aragorn did not have any ideas who he is till his 20 ? He did not live in the void , as it said “In that house were harbored the Heirs of Isildur, in childhood and old age.� Which means , considering their long living and the probability that some of Chieftains had not only one offspring, that over 1000 years the Rivendell was quite full with all kind of members of Arnor's royal house, which makes unlikely not to guess who is who, UNLESS over many years all of them were treated equally as descendants of the royal family.
In this way, even knowing that your father was the last king on the line, you could never be sure that somebody from your distant relatives doesn’t have more right to succeed as the next Chieftan, a.k.a. the heir of Isildur.
Now, to consider the options of another direct heir, I'd say it couldn't have been a cousin.
Agree on it. The son of you grandfather’s brother could carry no less amount of royal blood.
Notice, that Argeleb, while claiming the lordship of Arnor, was ASSUMING that no descendants left in other realms. Rhydaur refused his lordship not because of the absence of the rightful heir to the throne. It said that “because Dunedain were few� the “power had been seized by evil lord of the Hillmen �. You can’t SEIZE the kingship if it’s no king there , can‘t forcibly take the throne which nobody occupied. So the rightful king of Rhydaur and his family was among that “few� in the time of seizure, and possibly after that some of his family , escaping an oppression,� fled west�.
The probability is very “thin�, but still gives us a venue for speculation.

Aragorn couldn't have had a son of his own, do you honestly believe Elrond would have given him Arwen as wife if Aragorn had a son and a woman somewhere already? It would have been an unforgivable insult to Arwen and Elrond had too high a regard for his daughter to do that to her.
I honestly believe that healthy young male in his prime years has natural sex drive, which has nothing to do with love, and 30 years of abstinence usually indicate some psychological of physiological abnormalities. ;) :)
Nowhere said that he wed Arwen being a virgin.
Elrond might not know of what he was doing in his free time in Rohan or Gondor , besides, I don’t think that Aragorn had an urge to report to Elrond about his private life, since the biased elf-lord literally sent him to conquer unconquerable, a precedent in actions of Thingol of Doriath.
Elrond was not concerned about an “unforgivable insult to Arwen“, because, considering odds against Aragorn, he wouldn’t see her as his own ears.
On the other hand, if he had had a sibling I find it impossible that that said sibling would remain unmentioned at all.
This is exactly what I thought when I figured out that Aragorn must have a heir!
I was looking through the pages of the book , not really believing that that unmentioned heir will appear somewhere.
And all of the sudden I got a goose bumps, because he DID appear! And his name is Halbarad.
His sudden appearance brought Aragorn into ecstatic state.� Halbarad!…Of all joy this is least expected!�,“My thought have often turned to you�…
You probably say that it doesn’t mean nothing.
Just imagine the scene: the grim and weathered man running and embracing another man, saying to him that he constantly thinking about him and he is a joy which he dreamt about, but never expected. What would you think?
Right! Look like this man has an alternative sexual orientation.
I think that it caused a confusion among Rohan’s men also . But Aragorn explains, that Halbarad is his relative “of my own kin� , and everyone breathed a sign of relieve:� Well, they are just relatives…�

I also wouldn't make the asumption that all Dúnedain children raised in Rivendell were unaware of their decent and kin until Elrond told them.
I'm guessing Aragorn was an exeption because he was the last of the line. .
If Arathorn had lived longer, I doubt there would have been need to hide Aragorn's lineage until his twenty years.
Everyone of the 15 Chieftains was at some time the last of the line, than this “exception� must had been extended for a quite lengthy time. :D
Maybe I am too dense, but I don’t understand what it has to do with his father longevity?








.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I honestly believe that healthy young male in his prime years has natural sex drive, which has nothing to do with love, and 30 years of abstinence usually indicate some psychological of physiological abnormalities. ;) :)
Nowhere said that he wed Arwen being a virgin.
Elrond might not know of what he was doing in his free time in Rohan or Gondor , besides, I don’t think that Aragorn had an urge to report to Elrond about his private life, since the biased elf-lord literally sent him to conquer unconquerable, a precedent in actions of Thingol of Doriath.
Elrond was not concerned about an “unforgivable insult to Arwen“, because, considering odds against Aragorn, he wouldn’t see her as his own ears.

This is exactly what I thought when I figured out that Aragorn must have a heir!
I was looking through the pages of the book , not really believing that that unmentioned heir will appear somewhere.
And all of the sudden I got a goose bumps, because he DID appear! And his name is Halbarad.
His sudden appearance brought Aragorn into ecstatic state.� Halbarad!…Of all joy this is least expected!�,[/B[B]]“My thought have often turned to you�…
You probably say that it doesn’t mean nothing.
Just imagine the scene: the grim and weathered man running and embracing another man, saying to him that he constantly thinking about him and he is a joy which he dreamt about, but never expected. What would you think?
Right! Look like this man has an alternative sexual orientation.
I think that it caused a confusion among Rohan’s men also . But Aragorn explains, that Halbarad is his relative “of my own kin� , and everyone breathed a sign of relieve:� Well, they are just relatives…�

I don't think that Halbarad was his son (or what ever you went for im to be). If he was surely he would have called Aragorn father at some point not Aragorn. If he was then surely more emphasis would have been put on his death.

[Haradrim]

okay Olmer I can swallow everything except for Halbarad. No offense but there is no way Halbarad. I cant dig up huge ntoes of files because I am obviously not as versed as you but I am going on gut instinct here. Tolkien would never have left taht out and not told us. THen we are saying aslo that Aragorn is a bad man because a good and just man would make his rightful son the king and not his other son to Arwen unless you are claiming wedlock on Halabarad but I dont evenm know if that would work. Also there has to be somewhere where it mentions Halbarads age. IO have very few of the books so please someone else find it. Also you are totally making assumptions based on very circumstantial evidence. Yes what yuoua re saying could be true but you might as well be saying hmm I found some feathers ona mans bed. He always looks at the sky. I have never seen him use an airplane and he is always ontime. he must have wings! btw I really like reading your ideas. They are very cool and I dont mean to sound hostile by this post. Please forgive anything that may sound hostile as what may sound hostile to you iseally extremely think sarcasm :) :) :)

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

ehem.... I dont think that Olmer claimed that... Halbarad was the son of Aragorn, or even a brother. He said that Halbarad was of closekinship with Aragorn. A Cousin perhaps!? I don't think that is too far fetched? Im sure after thousands of years one of the cheiftans on the Dunedain must have ahad more than one child! Perhpas Arathorn had a brother or sister!? I never thought of Halbarad as directly aligned with Elendil but now it does not seem so incredible. Think about it, if Aragorn feel and Halbarad was still alive... King Halbarad of Gondor and Arnor.... I think I like the sound of that.... haha! Seriously though, I am now thinking Halbarad may be of the line of Isildur! Also Halbarad of the Dunedain is not Aragorns son! Aragorn found Arwen in Lorien when he was young and remaind true to her till the end of his days, no way he had a child before seeing her!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I doubt it. If Halbarad was the heir of Isildur (after Aragorn) then surely he to would have abided in Rivendell so the line would be preserved.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

It never says that he didn't abide in Imladris for a time. Even Aragorn withdrew from Imladris for long periods of time. He traveled Middle-Earth and even spent some time in Lorien! Im sure Halbarad did spend much time in Imladris as did many of the Dunedain. Someone has to be next in line if Aragorn fails right!? If you go far enough back someone would have been the rightful place keeper if Aragorn fell with no heir. Perhaps it was the Greatest of the Dunedain Halbarad! :D

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Aragorn lived in Imladris and the only recorded journey that he took whilst still Estel was with the Sons of Elrond before Elrond told him his true anscestry. I'm sure if Halbarad did live in Imladris for a time then it would be said.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Why would it be said!? It would not be important unless Aragorn died heirless. I mean what would Tolkien had said? Somewhere in the Appendicies, "oh yeah and Halbarad was Aragorns Cousin... he lived in Imladris for a time and then he came to hsi kinsmans aide and then died on the feilds of pelannor." It wasn't neccessary to add any information on someone who dies so quickly and who is not important unless one of your main characters dies! Im not saying Halbarad as blood of Elendil is fact im just saying there is no better proof for it to be not true than it is to be... possible. :)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But surely Aragorn would have told Theoden, Eomer, Legolas and Gimli when Halbarad arrived.

[Artanis]

I honestly believe that healthy young male in his prime years has natural sex drive, which has nothing to do with love, and 30 years of abstinence usually indicate some psychological of physiological abnormalities. ;) :)
Nowhere said that he wed Arwen being a virgin.
If Arwen was not a virgin she would not have married Aragorn. She would already have been married, since it is the union of the bodies that constitutes a marriage among the Elves. Equally she would not have married Aragorn if he had not been true to their love. You are thinking like a man of this present world Olmer. :D ;) But Aragorn was a Dúnedain, an almost ideal representative of the nobility left among Men in Middle Earth.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

aragorn did tell Gimli, Legolas, Theoden, Eomer, and everyone else that Halbarad is from his own house, one of his kin. In those days it wasn't important to say, this is my cousin, we grew up together in imladris and we like to eat crumpets with our noon tea. Aragorn said the information needed. Also perhaps it was a prtectionary tactic? When a leader is under threat the secondary leader is kept secret and safe so all is not lost, So similarly Halbarad may have been in "hiding" his true nature is not revealed to non elves and non dunedain?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

He did not have to say that, but he would probably have said that he was the next heir of Isildur.

[Valandil]

If Arwen was not a virgin she would not have married Aragorn. She would already have been married, since it is the union of the bodies that constitutes a marriage among the Elves. Equally she would not have married Aragorn if he had not been true to their love. You are thinking like a man of this present world Olmer. :D ;) But Aragorn was a Dúnedain, an almost ideal representative of the nobility left among Men in Middle Earth.

I think Olmer was talking about Aragorn being a virgin when they wed, but I strongly agree with Artanis on this. I definitely think that the Dunedain, as well as any of the Numenoreans who were 'Faithful' and had not fallen, would have strictly stuck to the Elven practice of absolute fidelity and faithfulness in love, including refraining before marriage. Did they have urges? Yes... but those were opportunities to practice self-control. Besides, they would have been reinforced by a culture where the peer pressure was to wait, rather than to indulge all urges... they wouldn't have had the advertising and other outlets which keep 'sex' before us constantly today... and young men and women would have probably been kept somewhat separated and almost always supervised.

I do not doubt that most chieftains (and earlier kings) had multiple children. However, the line of kingship always went to the oldest son... that's just the way it was. It doesn't mean that any others had any less of Isildur's genetic code than the king... but the one in line to be king held that station. In fact, after 38 or 39 generations, probably a good chunk of the surviving Dunedain were descended in some way from Valandil, Isildur's son (just do the math!). But only the next in line was considered the rightful king, and if something happened to him, there were generally laws of succession to determine who would follow. I wouldn't be surprised if most chieftains and kings had at least 2 or 3 sons... for 'insurance' if nothing else... and they likely had as many daughters as sons, over the course of time. However, I don't think there's any way Arathorn had other children - that would have been significant enough to mention.

In the case of Halbarad, there are many ways he could be related to Aragorn - and only half are on his father's side. He could have been a first or second cousin, maybe once removed either way, from either side... or even a third cousin. He could have even been a later child of Dirhael and Ivorwen - an uncle to Aragorn, but perhaps of approximately the same age.

They were apparently close friends as well as relatives - and I doubt there were other Dunedain children in Imladris. I suspect that when Aragorn first went into the wild, at age 20, that he first went to meet his own people, and traveled with a few of them initially. It was only a few years later that it says he went alone... so he obviously had companions at first. He didn't know Gandalf yet - so that pretty much leaves Elrond's sons or other Rangers. I suspect the former at first, but the latter after that, or together with the former. In those early years, he probably got to know his people and their ways, and formed close friendships with a few in particular, including Halbarad.

[Earniel]

I’m sorry for my inattentiveness , which is due to my preoccupation with other matters. :o Here I’m giving my POV on your response.
No problem. :) Thank you for taking the time to answer my post in lenght.


If they knew very well the state and members of royal house, how come that Aragorn did not have any ideas who he is till his 20 ? He did not live in the void , as it said “In that house were harbored the Heirs of Isildur, in childhood and old age.� Which means , considering their long living and the probability that some of Chieftains had not only one offspring, that over 1000 years the Rivendell was quite full with all kind of members of Arnor's royal house, which makes unlikely not to guess who is who, UNLESS over many years all of them were treated equally as descendants of the royal family.
I had the impression there were no other permanent human residents in Imladris but Aragorn and Gilraen or in any case not more than a handful. Also, I doubt Elrond would have let the Dúnedain turn Rivendell into a substitute for their royal court. :p Aragorn did indeed not live in the void for his first 20 years and quite possibly he met kin and relatives in that time. But it doesn't mean they also treated him as heir to the chieftainship. On Elrond request his lineage was kept hidden, the visiting Dúnedain would have honoured that request.

Agree on it. The son of you grandfather’s brother could carry no less amount of royal blood. Agreed. But succession went (IIRC) in direct line, therefore the son of the chieftain would be first to succeed, before his uncle. And his son before the children of the uncle. They may have had the same amount of royal blood, but their claim to chieftainship was different.
Notice, that Argeleb, while claiming the lordship of Arnor, was ASSUMING that no descendants left in other realms. Rhydaur refused his lordship not because of the absence of the rightful heir to the throne. It said that “because Dunedain were few� the “power had been seized by evil lord of the Hillmen �. You can’t SEIZE the kingship if it’s no king there , can‘t forcibly take the throne which nobody occupied. So the rightful king of Rhydaur and his family was among that “few� in the time of seizure, and possibly after that some of his family , escaping an oppression,� fled west�. The probability is very “thin�, but still gives us a venue for speculation.
Possible, however, the quote you gave said 'power had been seized', not kingship.

Elrond might not know of what he was doing in his free time in Rohan or Gondor , besides, I don’t think that Aragorn had an urge to report to Elrond about his private life, since the biased elf-lord literally sent him to conquer unconquerable, a precedent in actions of Thingol of Doriath.
Possible, though I think it unlikely. Also, your theory rested on Elrond picking the next Chieftain to succeed. If Aragorn had a son that Elrond did not know about then your theory doesn't work for the possibility of Aragorn having a son.

I think that it caused a confusion among Rohan’s men also . But Aragorn explains, that Halbarad is his relative “of my own kin� , and everyone breathed a sign of relieve:� Well, they are just relatives…�
Which doesn't mean Halbarad is also a direct heir to the throne, he may as easily have been close kin through Gilraen. (As I notice now Valandil has posted in much more detail)

Everyone of the 15 Chieftains was at some time the last of the line, than this “exception� must had been extended for a quite lengthy time. :D Maybe I am too dense, but I don’t understand what it has to do with his father longevity?
Yes, but not everyone of the 15 Chieftain's father died when he was but two years old. IIRC each of the chieftains was mature when his father died and the chieftainship passed on to them. Some of the heirs undoubtedly already had sons of their own when they inherited the role of Chieftain. Except for Aragorn II. He was only two years old when his father died so it would be many years before he could have an heir. The risks of losing the last heir of Isildur were suddenly a lot higher than ever. In that I call Aragorn the exception.

As for your last question, if his father had lived longer I doubt his lineage would have been kept a secret for Aragorn until he was 20. There would have been no need IMO.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I suspect that when Aragorn first went into the wild, at age 20, that he first went to meet his own people, and traveled with a few of them initially.
Aragorn went abroad with Elronds son before that. In Appendix A it says
But when Estel was only twenty years of age, it chanced that he returned to Rivendell after great deeds in the company of the sons of Elrond.
It doesn't say how often this happened but it suggest he left Rivendell a few years previously.

[Artanis]

I think Olmer was talking about Aragorn being a virgin when they wed, Oh I see, I read Olmer's sentence wrong. :o But anyway, Arwen would not have married Aragorn if he was not a virgin, she would have considered him as already married. And it was not possible to deceive her in this matter, the Elves knew instantly whether a person was married or not.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Oh I see, I read Olmer's sentence wrong. :o But anyway, Arwen would not have married Aragorn if he was not a virgin, she would have considered him as already married. And it was not possible to deceive her in this matter, the Elves knew instantly whether a person was married or not.If the hypothetical parmour of Aragorn was a human, and dead, thus with no real chance of returning to earth, then the precedent of Finwe/Miriel/Indis waould apply and Aragon would be marriagle under Nodorin law.

[Haradrim]

but lefty Aragorn met ARwen when he was extremely young and he remained faithful. He didnt spend any periods of time away from the sons of elrond or Elrond so they would have stopped him if he ever got the urge. Also Aragorn, as said before, was the highest ideal of what a human could be. he was honorable, brave, strong, courageous, and faithful to the one he loved. That makes me think he wouldnt have had other women/woman.

Also Olmer said -the heir to gondor- I could be mistaken but I always thought that when you would say Aragorn's heir you wouldnt mean the next of royal blood you meant his son. But i could be wrong. :) Wow this died for awhiel and now its coming back with a vengeance and I attributer the sucess to Olmer thanks Olmer.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Aragorn did spend time out of the Company of Elrond or his sons. They weren't with him on his ways to Gondor and Rohan. But I agree that Aragorn wouldn't have married Arwen if he already had a child.

[Valandil]

Aragorn went abroad with Elronds son before that. In Appendix A it says

It doesn't say how often this happened but it suggest he left Rivendell a few years previously.

This was actually before he 'went into the wild'... I take it he had gone out on possibly numerous short-term expeditions. But that's different from when he truly went out into the Wild, which was after Elrond told him who he really was, which was after his return with the sons of Elrond.

[Valandil]

If they knew very well the state and members of royal house, how come that Aragorn did not have any ideas who he is till his 20 ? He did not live in the void , as it said “In that house were harbored the Heirs of Isildur, in childhood and old age.� Which means , considering their long living and the probability that some of Chieftains had not only one offspring, that over 1000 years the Rivendell was quite full with all kind of members of Arnor's royal house, which makes unlikely not to guess who is who, UNLESS over many years all of them were treated equally as descendants of the royal family.
In this way, even knowing that your father was the last king on the line, you could never be sure that somebody from your distant relatives doesn’t have more right to succeed as the next Chieftan, a.k.a. the heir of Isildur.

Agree on it. The son of you grandfather’s brother could carry no less amount of royal blood.

As I noted earlier, not every descendant is in direct line to be king/chieftain. And it does not say that Isildur's descendants were fostered in Rivendell, it says that his heirs were. That would be a succession of young men, one at a time... not many descendants all at once.

Notice, that Argeleb, while claiming the lordship of Arnor, was ASSUMING that no descendants left in other realms. Rhydaur refused his lordship not because of the absence of the rightful heir to the throne. It said that “because Dunedain were few� the “power had been seized by evil lord of the Hillmen �. You can’t SEIZE the kingship if it’s no king there , can‘t forcibly take the throne which nobody occupied. So the rightful king of Rhydaur and his family was among that “few� in the time of seizure, and possibly after that some of his family , escaping an oppression,� fled west�.
The probability is very “thin�, but still gives us a venue for speculation.

The portion in Appendix A also says: "In Arthedain the line of Isildur was maintained and endured, but the line soon perished in Cardolan and Rhudaur." And a little further, "In the days of Argeleb son of Malvegil, since no descendants of Isildur remained in the other kingdoms, the kings of Arthedain again claimed the lordship of all Arnor." So it sounds to me more like every possible direct descendant of Isildur (or at least of Earendur - last King of all Arnor, whose sons divided the kingdom into three) in Cardolan and Rhudaur had died out. I don't think there were any of them left. :(

EDIT: on that part about an evil lord of the hillmen seizing power, speculating alone I almost wonder if there was something similar to what Ar-Pharazon had done to seize the throne of Numenor: perhaps this evil lord seized the hand in marriage of Rhudaur's last surviving descendant of that branch of the royal line (obviously a female, for this to work) - in order to legitimize his claim. (I'm thinking of writing a little fanfic story about it! :p ;) :D )

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

This was actually before he 'went into the wild'... I take it he had gone out on possibly numerous short-term expeditions. But that's different from when he truly went out into the Wild, which was after Elrond told him who he really was, which was after his return with the sons of Elrond.
Would he have gone abroad alone before this though, because the Sons of Elrond wouldn't have gone everywhere with him.

[Olmer]

… he was surely he would have called Aragorn father at some point not Aragorn.
Not necessarily.If he,as the heir by blood, brought up the way Aragorn was, he might have very vague idea.
Besides in some families kids are calling parents by name.
Tolkien would never have left taht out and not told us.
Tolkien have left A LOT OF out. Probably, he just did not have enough of time to elaborate the details of all plots.
Aragorn is a bad man because a good and just man would make his rightful son the king and not his other son to Arwen .
The son is grown up man, not a baby, which could stand in the way.Arwen might have a change of her heart and sail West. Besides, he died, remember?
Please forgive anything that may sound hostile as what may sound hostile to you iseally extremely think sarcasm
No need to apologize. I understand how you feel. Very few people could read my postings without derision. I got used to sarcasm.
He said that Halbarad was of closekinship with Aragorn.
That ‘s right. Somebody who took the place (a throne) of Chieftain of Dunedainin in the absence of crownless king, and by the custom it should be someone next of kin.
Someone has to be next in line if Aragorn fails right!? If you go far enough back someone would have been the rightful place keeper if Aragorn fell with no heir.
You have very valid point.I was thinking why Elrond sent only two of his sons, and not the elves army.He sure knew that Aragorn in the dire need of manpower, and he sure can find a few dozens of elves, at least Elladan‘s and Elrohir‘s own squad. And your posting led me to a thought, that this two are not just accompanying Dunedain. It’s Dunedain are accompanying a Coronation committee.
When things started to turn too dangerous for Aragorn, Elrond made sure that in the grave situation if Aragorn falls, the substitute could be right at hands. The sons of Elrond wii confirm that he indeed the carrier of Isildur’s line and :�The long Life to Halbarad, the King of Gondor and Arnor!�!
Equally she would not have married Aragorn if he had not been true to their love.
She did not ask him, nor he did any pledge of allegiance to her. It happened 30 years later.
Would you hold it against your man for with whom he had been before you?
Did they have urges? Yes... but those were opportunities to practice self-control. Besides, they would have been reinforced by a culture where the peer pressure was to wait, rather than to indulge all urges...
I think, concerning constant unrests in the Middle-earth, “the peer pressure�, rather than wait, was to continue your line, to produce a heir and, if possible, not one. This is a natural human instinct of self-preservance.
But only the next in line was considered the rightful king, and if something happened to him, there were generally laws of succession to determine who would follow.
Right. And by “general law of succession� Halbarad was taking a charge over abandoned by their king Dunadain.
In the case of Halbarad, there are many ways he could be related to Aragorn ...
Agree. I'm just pointing out that they were close related. Close enough to put Halbarad as a successor of Aragorn
I suspect that when Aragorn first went into the wild, at age 20, that he first went to meet his own people, and traveled with a few of them initially.
Possible. I think, in his situation to come to his own kind was the first thing to do.
Also, I doubt Elrond would have let the Dúnedain turn Rivendell into a substitute for their royal court.
I’ll tell you just one of the reasons. By giving a shelter in his fortress to the homeless Dunedain he was acquiring a compact, very well trained, experienced in combat, mobile ,grateful and absolutely loyal to the elves assembly of Numenorian’s descendants .
But succession went in direct line, therefore the son of the chieftain would be first to succeed, before his uncle. And his son before the children of the uncle.
And in the absence of children?
Which doesn't mean Halbarad is also a direct heir to the throne, he may as easily have been close kin through Gilraen.
And in the absence of direct heir?
I doubt it. If Halbarad was the heir of Isildur then surely he to would have abided in Rivendell so the line would be preserved.
He was only two years old when his father died so it would be many years before he could have an heir. The risks of losing the last heir of Isildur were suddenly a lot higher than ever. In that I call Aragorn the exception.
And nevertheless he was not brought up sheltered, because by the young age of 20 he returned to Rivendell ALREADY having done “a great deeds�, which is, considering situation in Eriador, could be no other than an active participation in a BIG fights with orcs or other enemies.
Elrond does not strike me as being ignorant or completely stupid not to understand that such arrangement is a sure thing to lose the last heir of Isildur. What the point to protect him till puberty and then send on slaying mission where he could be easily killed, as it happened to his father?
Such arrangement could be acceptable under only one condition: the line of Isildur can continue by the next of kin.
In this light I see no reason to make an exception to Aragorn, and I suspect there was none. He was treated like all others Isildur’s heirs.
…if his father had lived longer I doubt his lineage would have been kept a secret for Aragorn until he was 20. There would have been no need IMO.
There was no need , period!
Aragorn met ARwen when he was extremely young and he remained faithful.
Aragorn met Arwen being extremely young. That right . And have got “Butt off� from Erlond who straightforwardly told him that she has “lineage greater� than his and “she is too far above� him, that to her he is just a wet-nosed kid.
He did not make any promises to Arwen. Actually, I think that he “went into the wild� alone looking for danger particularly because he had no hopes to get Arwen’s hand.
.He didnt spend any periods of time away from the sons of elrond or Elrond so they would have stopped him if he ever got the urge.
So, you are saying that Elrond put two “wachdogs�on young Aragorn to keep him from straying?
Aragorn wouldn't have married Arwen if he already had a child
Why not?As Lefty Scaevola pointed out, it was not illegimate arrangement.
And it does not say that Isildur's descendants were fostered in Rivendell, it says that his heirs were. That would be a succession of young men, one at a time…
Or several at the time, your brothers are heirs of your father just as you are.
I almost wonder if there was something similar to what Ar-Pharazon had done to seize the throne of Numenor: perhaps this evil lord seized the hand in marriage of Rhudaur's last surviving descendant (I'm thinking of writing a little fanfic story about it! )
Oh. I did not see that parallel …This is really good idea!

[Valandil]

Well Olmer, you have not convinced me, but I sure admire you for supporting your case. I guess part of my viewpoint with taking these things more at face value is just the hunch (on my part) that in trying to create new fairy tales and mythologies, that Tolkien's people were idealized. That's why it's not a problem for them to suppress natural urges, etc. In that regard, in fact, all the Kings of Arnor and Arthedain, on up to the chieftains, had very long stretches of time between their births... about 90 years apart at first, down to maybe 60 or 65 years at the end. That's a long time to wait after puberty, but to me there's an inbuilt consistency... and an opportunity to try to believe in an ideal - of goodness, faithfulness - all those other qualities we like to teach to our children. :)

Oh - and yes, my brothers and I are all heirs of my father, however, if my father were a king, only my older brother would be heir to his throne. ;)

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Or if your brother died the next eldest son would be, by rights, the next heir to your father. Therefore it is a possibility that even the youngest son of a king may become the heir to the throne. Therefore I feel that not only one mad was fostered in Rivendell. Several men, no fewer than two at the least, dwelt in Imladris. Therefore whoever the next in line was he most likely dwelt for a time in Imladris. Aragorn could after all suffer a heart attack, or fall off a cliff, or be killed by orcs in the wild! If aragorn met an untimely death the Dunedain would be in sh1t creek, as would Elrond! So it would be implausible to think thatonly Aragorn was fostered in Rivendell. And absurd to think the the Dunedain had no contact with Aragorn in his youth! Some of the Dunedain must have dwelt in Rivendel even if it was not for a permenant time. Considering that Halbarad is the only mentioned ranger other than Aragorn it would seem that Tolkien wished for him to have some purpose beyond what he had in the books. Most likely the only reason we don't know this information is because of the success of Aragorn, like I said in previous posts it was completely irrelevent that Halbarad was heir following Aragorn because Aragorn survived! However Olmers comment on my previous post made me think that Elrohir and Elladan maybe would not accompany the next in line to become king to a battle where he could perish. That is exactlly what happened too. Halabard died on the fields of the Pelennor, if aragorn had died as well everyone once again would be up sh1t creek! So maybe Halbarad is not directly next in line. Yet I still like to think so cause Halbarad is just that good ;) :D

[Artanis]

She did not ask him, nor he did any pledge of allegiance to her. It happened 30 years later.
Would you hold it against your man for with whom he had been before you?Of course I would, I would NOT have married Celeborn if he had not been a virgin! :p

Well then, in RL I wouldn't, but there I am not an Elf used to Elvish customs. :) When Aragorn first met Arwen in his 20eth year, she must have recognised his love for her. She even hinted that she liked him too, saying that her fate might become similar to that of Lúthien. All that I know about Elvish customs tells me that she would expect him to remain faithful to her if he planned to marry her later. The Elves simply do not have more than one lover. I think that Arwen knew at once that he would be able to wait for her, and she would not have liked him so much if she didn't see those qualities in him.

When Arwen saw Aragorn again in Lórien, he was like en Elf-Lord to look at. In my mind, that means both his physical appearance and his spiritual presence. I am convinced that if he had not been faithful, he would not have appeared to Arwen as noble as an Elf-Lord, and she would not have been betrothed to him. I base this on what I know about the ability of the Elves to read the hearts of humans who were noble enough to have nothing to hide.

Lefty, even if the MÃ*riel/Finwë/Indis story would make a precedence, I don't think it is comparable to the case of Arwen/Aragorn. Finwë had not fallen in love with Indis before he married MÃ*riel. A marriage may be lawful, but that doesn't mean that the people involved will accept it.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Aragorn met Arwen being extremely young. That right . And have got “Butt off� from Erlond who straightforwardly told him that she has “lineage greater� than his and “she is too far above� him, that to her he is just a wet-nosed kid.
He did not make any promises to Arwen. Actually, I think that he “went into the wild� alone looking for danger particularly because he had no hopes to get Arwen’s hand.
I don't think that Aragorn went into the wild looking for danger, he wasn't rash. There wasn't no hope that he would marry Arwen. Didn't Elrond say.
There will be no choice for Arwen, unless you Aragorn Arathorn's son come between us, and bring one of us, either you or me, to a bitter ending.

[Valandil]

Or if your brother died the next eldest son would be, by rights, the next heir to your father. Therefore it is a possibility that even the youngest son of a king may become the heir to the throne. Therefore I feel that not only one mad was fostered in Rivendell. Several men, no fewer than two at the least, dwelt in Imladris. Therefore whoever the next in line was he most likely dwelt for a time in Imladris. Aragorn could after all suffer a heart attack, or fall off a cliff, or be killed by orcs in the wild! If aragorn met an untimely death the Dunedain would be in sh1t creek, as would Elrond! So it would be implausible to think thatonly Aragorn was fostered in Rivendell. And absurd to think the the Dunedain had no contact with Aragorn in his youth! Some of the Dunedain must have dwelt in Rivendel even if it was not for a permenant time. Considering that Halbarad is the only mentioned ranger other than Aragorn it would seem that Tolkien wished for him to have some purpose beyond what he had in the books. Most likely the only reason we don't know this information is because of the success of Aragorn, like I said in previous posts it was completely irrelevent that Halbarad was heir following Aragorn because Aragorn survived! However Olmers comment on my previous post made me think that Elrohir and Elladan maybe would not accompany the next in line to become king to a battle where he could perish. That is exactlly what happened too. Halabard died on the fields of the Pelennor, if aragorn had died as well everyone once again would be up sh1t creek! So maybe Halbarad is not directly next in line. Yet I still like to think so cause Halbarad is just that good ;) :D

Wow! Some people take a leap, some athletes do the 'triple-jump' - but you're just taking leap after leap after leap here! :p

An interesting study of somebody going through the process of convincing himself to believe something! ;) :D

EDIT: Hope that doesn't sound too mean... but the post just struck me as sorta funny. :o

[Attalus]

All that I know about Elvish customs tells me that she would expect him to remain faithful to her if he planned to marry her later. The Elves simply do not have more than one lover. I think that Arwen knew at once that he would be able to wait for her, and she would not have liked him so much if she didn't see those qualities in him.


"Laws and Customs" states that the Eldar do not bring forth children in times of doubt and travail. I think the Dunedain had similar customs, and the bit agout Aragorn's resisting Éowyn's advances when all the men I know would have jumped her is given to show Aragorn's chastity. A far, far better man than I, I have always thought. :evil:

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Wow! Some people take a leap, some athletes do the 'triple-jump' - but you're just taking leap after leap after leap here! :p

An interesting study of somebody going through the process of convincing himself to believe something! ;) :D

EDIT: Hope that doesn't sound too mean... but the post just struck me as sorta funny. :o


Haha, it's a LotR message board. Entmoot. I talk about LotR, its aentertaining to talk about hypothetical aspects of Tolkien's world. I like to do my best to make as much of a flawless point when making a point.(Guess thats good considering im trying to get into law) I don't take any offense. I make a lot of wold claims in these threads. Im just glad that I don't get flammed in here like other boreds, just for voicing my opinion! So... im not really convincing myself, although if your trying to convince someone else the best way to do it is to think like them and then disprove yourself, im convinsing others to believe what im saying might be true. I mean come on, who wouldnt want Halbarad as their king!? ;) :D :evil:

[Gordis]

I realize I am late in this tread, but as Olmer asked my opinion on the matter, here it is.
First of all I agree entirely with Valandil:
[Quote=Valandil]I do not doubt that most chieftains (and earlier kings) had multiple children. However, the line of kingship always went to the oldest son... that's just the way it was. It doesn't mean that any others had any less of Isildur's genetic code than the king... but the one in line to be king held that station. In fact, after 38 or 39 generations, probably a good chunk of the surviving Dunedain were descended in some way from Valandil, Isildur's son (just do the math!). But only the next in line was considered the rightful king, and if something happened to him, there were generally laws of succession to determine who would follow. I wouldn't be surprised if most chieftains and kings had at least 2 or 3 sons... for 'insurance' if nothing else... and they likely had as many daughters as sons, over the course of time. However, I don't think there's any way Arathorn had other children - that would have been significant enough to mention. [\Quote].

I believe that in 3000 years practically ALL the Dunedain of the north could trace their ancestry back to Valandil. The custom even demanded them to intermarry within the royal line, at least not to "mingle with lesser men". So there was a choice of cousins twice, trice etc. removed.

I think Olmer is right that the youth of Aragorn in Imladris was typical for Dunedain children, at least closest to the direct line of succession. I believe Erlond proclaimed the next chieftain himself always choosing the rightful one (eldest son of the eldest son of the eldest son...), unless the boy was obviously unfit for the position (Has it ever happened, though?). I believe that every chieftain had a named heir, even before they get married, not a bastard son, of course, but a younger brother or a cousin. Next in the line of succession under the law. When the Chieftain got a LEGETIMATE son, then the latter was proclaimed the Chieftain's heir in preference to a former one (a brother or a cousin). That is exactly as it is done in all royal lines.

So I believe Halbarad was Aragorn's heir, otherwise he would not be his next in command.Perhaps he was a cousin or a second cousin, but of course not a bastard son. And yes, if Aragorn died, then Halbarad would have got Anduril and become a new king. If he perished as well, then there will be the next rightful heir. Probably the Gray company included several heirs, knowing their order of succession. And it was not so dangerous for Elrond to send them because many had children raised in Imladris that would survive.

As for Aragorn being a virgin.... I really don't know whether any men could reach the elvish ideal of chastity. But I am sure that, unlike elves, Dunedain men had to be married legitimely before siring LEGITIMATE children. The elvish custom : a couple is considered married once they get to bed, will simply not work in a human kingdom, not entirely populated with part-elves. So the question of Aragorn's chastity (though perhaps important for Arwen) had no bearing on the succession of the throne. Do you think that a son of a Prancing Pony chambermaid by Aragorn could seriously claim Arnor's kinship? The most he would ever get is a yearly bag of gold coins from Elrond's treasury. The Dunedain were a proud people and a bastard is a bastard.

[Olmer]

But I am sure that, unlike elves, Dunedain men had to be married legitimely before siring LEGITIMATE children.
The Dunedain were a proud people and a bastard is a bastard.

I don’t agree on “bastard� assertion. First of it, the whole notion of the illegimate child came from religious doctrines presented to the major population for acceptance of believe .This rule did not come from the depth of ages, we created it .By the law of nature ANY child you conceived is LEGIMATE, because he is your flesh and blood. It would be too rush to apply our standarts to the population which has nothing to do with religion. So “bastard� definition may not be applicable for even so proud generations of dangerously fast declining in numbers Dunedain.

But any way, I believe that Aragorn, as Thorongil, being near Ecthelion in counsel for 23 years, and getting very high esteem and honor amongst Gondorians, had no problem to find an eligible maiden with Numenorian kings ancestry in her blood. As we know , he had no promises from Elrond of Arwen’s hand, and she did nothing in her turn to assure the dirty-nosed and sleeping under the trees ranger of her love.
So, it has been assumed that for 30 years he had no hopes to get married and produce a heir, practicing an abstinence.. According to medical affirmation , the very prolonged practice of self-denial leads to the loss of reproductive abilities. Aragorn’s reproductive functions was not his own business; being the last successor of such hip lineage of Kings, it was HIS DUTY to leave a heir before undertaking dangerous assignments.
In 30 years of human life a lot of things might happened. It’s very possible that the mother of his child died and kid has been brought (or sent) lately to Imladris, where he has been brought up amongst other potential successors of Isildur’s line without being announced who he is ( as in case of Aragorn).

[Gordis]

I don’t agree on “bastard� assertion. First of it, the whole notion of the illegimate child came from religious doctrines presented to the major population for acceptance of believe .This rule did not come from the depth of ages, we created it .By the law of nature ANY child you conceived is LEGIMATE, because he is your flesh and blood. It would be too rush to apply our standarts to the population which has nothing to do with religion. So “bastard� definition may not be applicable for even so proud generations of dangerously fast declining in numbers Dunedain.).
I am surely not an expert in this matter, but I believe the notion of bastards versus legetimate children necessarily follows the notion of "marriage". IMHO it is present in all the cultures, whatever gods they worship, especially at the stage of developed monarchies. I believe there was no monarchy known in history where bastards had equal rights with legitimate children. After all, how (without the DNA analysis) can a bastard prove that he really is the son of a given man?
Moreover, if you agree that there were other descendants of Valandil among the dunedain why is it necessary to invent an unlikely story about Halbarad being Aragorn's son?

According to medical affirmation , the very prolonged practice of self-denial leads to the loss of reproductive abilities. ).
Sure it is true for ordinary men. But it seems that such things do not apply to part-elven Elros's descendants. There is another, even stranger, thing about them. Since the time of Aldarion and Erendis there was the law that the descendants of Elros should not marry any outsiders. Isildur's line seemingly followed the custom. Inbreeding within a small restricted population normally leads to woman infertility, deformities and cretinism in children. And those effects become apparent much earlier than in 5000 years. It seems that Tolkien has not even considered such issues.