Denethor, Faramir, Boromir

[Haradrim]

I have a question.
Why exactly did Denethor dislike Faramir. I mean was it just the fact that he lost a couple of times or was it something more? I would like to find out more on this matter. My personal feeling is that Gandalf chose Faramir. He liked him more and he talked with him more. Maybe Denethor was against this as Boromir would be the next steward? Maybe he resented his favor of Faramir when Faramir could be nothing but a failure in Denethor's eyes? Discuss.

[Radagast The Brown]

Apparently, Dnethor preferred Boromir, as he was more like him - while Faramir liked to read and learn more. Faramir wanted to go to Rivendell, but Boromir said he will since he's the older - and probably stronger, so it would ber easier to him, and he'd get there faster, can't remember really. Anyway, Boromir left, and died as you know. So the relationship between them got worse... I believe Denethor still liked Faramir, though, he was just disappointed, and preferred Boromir. Remember that Denethor was also affected by Sauron. :)

[Olmer]

Faramir wanted to go to Rivendell, but Boromir said he will since he's the older - and probably stronger, so it would ber easier to him, and he'd get there faster, can't remember really.
It was Denethor himself who sent Boromir to Rivendell.
In this light the whole story, concocted by Boromir, about coming to interpret the dream sounds too dubious. Denethor knew about the Ring.

[Attalus]

You know, I have always wondred if Boromir made it up about even having the dream. Faramir doubtless told him of the details. So Boromir claimed the adventure for himself, and Denethor indulged his favorite, who was, BTW, not like him, according to Gandalf.

[Olmer]

So Boromir claimed the adventure for himself, and Denethor indulged his favorite, who was, BTW, not like him.
But who , without doubt,"would have brought ... a mighty gift" to him. :cool:

[Attalus]

No, he would have fallen, and, when he reurned, Denethor would not have known his son. ;)

[Haradrim]

So Boromir wanted the glory and he told Faramir he would go. THen when Boromir died he wished Faramir had gone because he prefered Boromir making him resentful of Faramir. ???? Still confused

[Valandil]

...So Boromir claimed the adventure for himself, and Denethor indulged his favorite, who was, BTW, not like him, according to Gandalf.

Agreed... at least in capabilities, I think Faramir was much more like Denethor. In attitude and ambition however, Boromir was much more like Denethor. I think fathers of sons can see different aspects of themselves respresented in each one (and cringe therebye ;) ).

[Haradrim]

But why did he like Boromir more. What did he see in him that he saw in himself ( and cringe thereby ;)) Was it just the fact that Boromir would be steward or was it something more?

[Valandil]

But why did he like Boromir more. What did he see in him that he saw in himself ( and cringe thereby ;)) Was it just the fact that Boromir would be steward or was it something more?

Perhaps he saw that Boromir's heart was more like his... while with Faramir, perhaps it was more a matter of manner and mentality. Perhaps Boromir was all that he had never really been - such a great warrior - and he admired him for it. Who knows? We aren't really told explicitly - but it's not the kind of thing Tolkien, as author, spills out. Why DO some fathers favor one son over another? What leads them to do it...??? :confused: :)

[Haradrim]

Good point. I mean some fathers simply favor one over the other for no reason. Also I think you are right about the whole Boromir=warrior=admiration of by Denethor. But when Boromir died I would have thought that Faramir and Denethor would have embraced each other and wept with each other. Instead Denethors dislike almost intensifies. I dont understand why he did that. It just doesnt make sense. I mean maybe he thought Faramir should have gone but that doesnt make much sense either.

[Elanor the Fair]

Gandalf said of Denethor...

He loved him (Boromir) greatly: too much perhaps;and the more so because they were unlike."

Gandalf also says of Denethor....

"He is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet not in Boromir whom he loved best."

Denethor was a complex character. Who knows what instigated the favouritism towards his eldest son. Perhaps it was related to the death of his wife. Maybe Faramir reminded him too strongly of her. Or perhaps Boromir reminded him of his wife and loved him all the more because of this.

Perhaps he esteemed Boromir's perceived strength of purpose and vision - Denethor may have felt that this single-mindedness was the only way to save Gondor. Remember what Faramir said of Boromir...

"And this I remember of Boromir as a boy, when we together learned the tale of our sires and the history of our city, that it always displeased him that his father was not a king." "How many hundreds of years needs it to make a steward a king, if the king returns not?" he asked. "Few years, maybe, in other places of less royalty," my father answered. "In Gondor ten thousand yeras would not suffice." Alas! poor Boromir. Does that not tell you something of him?"

[Haradrim]

Thanks for the quotes I have been looking for them everywhere. I have been trying to find some good ones. Btw who was Denethors wife? and why did she die?

[Elanor the Fair]

Thanks for the quotes I have been looking for them everywhere. I have been trying to find some good ones. Btw who was Denethors wife? and why did she die?

Denethor's wife was Finduilas, a princess of Dol Amroth. She died from loneliness and depression 12 years after her marriage.

[Haradrim]

hmm lonely queen that seems a little hard to pull off. Couldnt she just buy friends? :) :) jk. Also was Denethor a bad husband or something cuz why was she so lonely that she DIED?

[Elanor the Fair]

There is also a reference in Appendix A that might explain, in part, Denethor's preference for his eldest son. Denethor's father, Ecthelion II, took into his service a man called Thorongil (this was, it can be inferred, Aragorn in another guise). Ecthelion highly esteemed Thorongil and perhaps this has some impact on Denethor's parenting...

"Denethor II was a proud man, tall, valiant, and more kingly than any man that had appeared in Gondor for many lives of men; and he was wise also, and far-sighted, and learned in lore. Indeed he was as like to Thorongil as to one of nearest kin, and yet was ever placed second to the stranger in the hearts of men and the esteem of his father."

This is like a parallel between Denethor and Faramir - they were alike, yet Faramir was placed second to Boromir. Maybe Faramir reminded Denethor too strongly of Thorongil - Aragorn and Faramir are reported to be very similar.

[Elanor the Fair]

hmm lonely queen that seems a little hard to pull off. Couldnt she just buy friends? :) :) jk. Also was Denethor a bad husband or something cuz why was she so lonely that she DIED?

This quote is from Appendix A...

She was a lady of great beauty and gentle heart, but before twelve years had passed she died. Denethor loved her, in his fashion, more dearly than any other, unless it were the elder of the two sons she bore him. But it seemed to men that she withered in the guarded city, as a flower of the seaward vales set upon a barren rock. The shadow in the east filled her with horror, and she turned her eyes ever south to the sea that she missed.

[Haradrim]

So youre saying she was a country girl and when she was cooped up as queen she felt all trapped and such. Well that makes sense. Thanks

[Olmer]

...whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet not in Boromir whom he loved best."
In plain words good old Gandalf was implying that Boromir is a bastard, otherwise how Westernesse's blood of the father could run in one son and not in other. :cool:

[Haradrim]

Can you imagien that. Gandalf walks over to the babies checks their pulse and temperature then picks Faramir up and nods his head then he picks Boromir up and stamps him with a big red stamp that says BASTAR*

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Im not sure if this has been said before but as I understand it it Faramir looked more like his mother, and the memory and the death of Denethors wife troubled him greatly. Everytime he looked on Faramir he saw his wife, a wife no more. Also his "dislike" if we could call it that was fuled by looking into the Palantir, it didn't control him like saruman but it did things obviously to his head. Furthermore this all was fueled by Faramirs unlikeness to Denethor. He was gentler and kind of more noble. He was lerned and prefered books and learning and the lore of the elves. Gandalf was a friend of his and Denethor became uneasy with gandalf as the years went on. Further more... Faramirs few losses and defeats in battle fueled the dislike even more, and the death of his beloved Borimir(instead of Farimir), so i would say that when the two were first born he cared for them both equally.

[Haradrim]

So to sum up so far:
Denethors reasond for not liking Faramir:
1. Reminded him of his wife through looks
2. Friends with Gandalf
3. Palantir
4. His few victories and more losses
5. His almost more nobleness
6. Likes books a lot and is mor elearned
7. Gandalf doesnt really like Boromir
8. Boromir dies

Well thats a lot of reasons to dislike ones son. Feel free to add more reasons. use numbers so we can keep track of how many there are.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think the main ones there are 2, 3 and 8 for had it been Faramir who had gone to Rivendell and died then the roles could be some what swapped.

[Haradrim]

Do you think Denethor would have grieved Faramir's death? Also Im not sure he would have died had Faramir gone. He probably could have held off the tug of the ring for much much much longer than Boromir. Cuz Boromir saw a weapon while Faramir knew the costs of the weapon. I think that maybe the hobbits wouldnt have been seperated from Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, and Faramir. But would they have found Gandalf. If not then who would have saved Rohan and if Rohan wasnt saved then Gondor wouldnt be saved. So maybe Boromir did die for something in the end.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I agree that Boromir died for something as Aragorn said to him that few had achieved such victory.

[Haradrim]

But what did he die for. What was Aragorn refering too. My crazy string of events, or for Merry and Pip or just for the Fellowship in general.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

He escaped the powers of the Ring after trying to take it from Frodo.

[Haradrim]

but according to Aragorn he had some kind of honor when he died. He did save Merry and Pip but Aragorn gave him massvi eprops which I dont think he deserved. He only came back top his senses when Frodo ran away. SO he didnt make a choice. Instead he tried to save Merry and Pippen and failed. So what did he accomplish.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

He regained his honour by trying to save Merry and Pippin instead of running off trying to find Frodo and the Ring again.

[Attalus]

In plain words good old Gandalf was implying that Boromir is a bastard, otherwise how Westernesse's blood of the father could run in one son and not in other. :cool:No, they were both the sons of Finduilas. Gandalf is speaking not as a scientist, but as a wizard, talking of the mystical nobility of Numenor. Faramir had it strongly, Boromir less, no matter how great a warrior he was. Beregond speaks of how Faramir was both a loremaster and captain of men, implying, at least to me, that Boromir was not.

[Haradrim]

I think Gandalf meant that the spirit of the Numenor blood was stronger in Faramir than in Boromir. Because Faramir was also very wise.

[Thorin II]

No, they were both the sons of Finduilas. Gandalf is speaking not as a scientist, but as a wizard, talking of the mystical nobility of Numenor. Faramir had it strongly, Boromir less, no matter how great a warrior he was. Beregond speaks of how Faramir was both a loremaster and captain of men, implying, at least to me, that Boromir was not.

I think this is exactly right. It seems Boromir was a great captain of men, so I always took that to mean he wasn't much of a loremaster.

[Haradrim]

so great captains of men cant be lore masters. Look at Aragorn. That guy was the greatest captain of men ever. So while he wasnt I disagree with why you say you thought that.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I would agree with the fact that Boromir wasn't a great loremaster but I agree with Haradrim that you can be even if you are a leader of men.

[Attalus]

*patiently* But, that was just the point. The speaker was Beregond, who didn't even know Aragorn at that point, and he was contrasting his chief, Faramir, with Boromir, "the one that is gone." You have to think in context. There are a dozen examples of great war captains who were loremasters too. Look at Elrond, for crying out loud. Look at Finrod!

[Haradrim]

Okay now I get it. thanks for clearing that up. :)

[BeardofPants]

Y'know, these things could be cleared up a LOT sooner if you guys did some more reading. The answers to most of these debates lie in the writings of Tolkien. If you can't be bothered doing to research, then I'm afraid you're going to have to remain ignorant of the answers to that which you seek.

[Earniel]

In plain words good old Gandalf was implying that Boromir is a bastard, otherwise how Westernesse's blood of the father could run in one son and not in other. :cool:
On the other hand, it could just be some genetics at work here. ;)


3. Palantir

We don't know just what Denethor saw in the PalantÃ*r, but I doubt he was seeing something that made him dislike Faramir.


7. Gandalf doesnt really like Boromir

I'd like to see your proof for this, nothing I've read seems to imply that.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

We don't know just what Denethor saw in the PalantÃ*r, but I doubt he was seeing something that made him dislike Faramir.

I think that Haradrim meant that the palantir twisted Denethors mind so he saw things in a different way to the way he used to.