The Lord of the Rings Discussion Ch 11 and 12

[Linaewen]

A Knife in the Dark and Flight to the Ford

These chapters have nearly everything, from Rangers to Trolls, Elves to Black Riders. While much of it is so suspenseful it puts you on the edge, there are also lighter moments with laughter amidst the peril. The only thing it may not have is romance, though we do get a hint of this with Strider’s ‘There my heart is’.

The scene is set with a vivid account of the terror generated by the Black Riders’ attack at Crickhollow. We begin to understand the true might of these Dark servants of Mordor, and the danger they pose to the hobbits, especially Frodo.

We also see how the search for the Ring begins to impact on life in the Shire. For the first time in a century, the Horn-call of Buckland is sounded. This reminds me of the earlier Hobbit history, with the battles between the Hobbits and Orcs and wolves. There is a hint of how else the daily lives of Hobbits will be changed by the power of Mordor. ‘Sauron would deal with them later’ the Black Riders think as they flee.

The Hobbits are not entirely safe at Bree either, though. Their bedrooms, although not slept in, are ravaged and the stabled horses are gone. If I remember correctly, wasn’t there some discussion about who actually attacked, since Tolkien doesn’t explicitly state that it was Black Riders?

The troupe has a new and invaluable addition, Bill the Pony. It makes me proud when Sam bids Bill Ferny to ‘put your ugly face out of sight, or it will get hurt’ and throws the apple at him. :D

On they go, through the Midgewater Marshes and so forth, to Weathertop. We still fear for the hobbits, and Strider warns them of the many spies of Mordor. He mentions “other spies more evil than they [the birds] are”. Is he referring to other animals here, maybe wolves or other Dark creatures? Or something else?

We also get a glimpse of the former might of the Men of the West, with their once magnificent structures now in ruins. Strider tells us some First Age history with the story of Lúthien and Beren.

The power of the Ring is made evident by Frodo’s inability to resist putting it on. When he strikes at the Rider’s foot, he cries ‘O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!’. What makes him say those certain words?

Though we can clearly see how detrimental the evil wound Frodo sustains is on him, we can also see how reluctant he is to let it show and how truly strong he is, especially as a Hobbit. Strider does his best to help alleviate Frodo’s pain and we see what kind of skills and talents he possesses for travelling in the wild, as a Ranger.

Then another lightening moment comes when the hobbits stumble across some trolls. The image of Strider poking a troll (a stone one or not) is hilarious. :D The atmosphere of tension and fear is lessened with the reminder of Bilbo’s own adventure.

And then we meet a beloved character of many a Mooter, Glorfindel. ;) Through him we observe the healing powers and keen senses of the Elven race. I would have liked to seen more from him in the book.

The chapters end with one of the best scenes, IMO, in LotR. [I]“ By Elbereth and Lúthien the Fair…you shall have neither the Ring nor me!’” Is that not one of the best quotes? We feel a sense of awe for Frodo’s strength and his concern for his friends, when he is unwilling to mount Glorfindel’s horse, fearing that it would put his friends in danger.

I have to quickly refer to the film here, because I know how angry many of us are at how PJ killed this scene in the movies, with his addition of that awful quote by Arwen, and his deletion of the display of strength of Frodo and Glorfindel. The imagery and suspense in this part is incredible, and we feel terrified for Frodo, especially since there’s no wonderful Arwen to protect him. ;)

Finally, we see that there are ‘good’ powers that may be stronger than that of the Dark Riders, with the flood’s onset. For the time being, we wonder who caused such a spectacular event. (Though, admittedly, we find out the answer very soon in the next chapter :D). Before you read on, who do you think does it?

[Linaewen]

So that’s my “summary”. There was just so much I didn’t want to leave out in my beloved chapters. :D Some discussion points:

Fatty Bolger
That’s the last we see of Fatty for a while, which I think is kind of a shame because I did like him. It was necessary to have someone remain at Crickhollow, but I think it would have been good if Tolkien included a bit more about him.

Frodo’s Dreams
Frodo dreams of the noise of wind and galloping hoofs just as the attack on Crickhollow is occurring. Where do these come from, and what is their purpose?

The Moon
The word ‘moon’ is used a number of times through the chapter. What is its significance? I notice on the third page of ‘A Knife in the Dark’ that Tolkien actually uses the words ‘the Moon’, which I found interesting because it makes Arda more like our own world, doesn’t it, with one Moon, considering Arda has a very different geographical structure to our own earth.

Ferny’s ‘Squint-eyed companion’
At this point in time, we don’t know who he is, but who did you think he was at this stage? What did you think happened to him?
Incidentally, while talking about Ferny, he calls Strider ‘Longshanks’. Why?

Other senses
“Senses, too, there are other than sight or smell”. What senses is Strider talking about? Feeling? Hearing? Or something else?

Strider’s warnings
Numerous times Strider warns the hobbits to not mention the name of the wraiths or other Mordor-related things, especially when they are so close by. Why is he so concerned about this, why does it endanger them?

Glorfindel
He mentions to Strider that when he came across the Riders, they withdrew from him. Combined (or even individually?), wouldn’t they have the power to take on the Elf Prince? If so, why withdraw? I was thinking that for the time being they were focused on attaining the Ring and so did not bother with fighting Glorfindel

[Rían]

Such a great coupla chapters! Thanks for the great summary, Lin! There is so much variety in these 2 chapters, as you said - it's amazing!

I just peeked in on the way to bed, so I'll post more tomorrow - I'll just make one comment :

Glorfindel! *sigh*

[Haradrim]

wow very cool. Hey if you want to help out check out the LOTR Guide thread on this page. That was very good. I really enjoyed it.

[Elanor the Fair]

Very well done, Linaewen, :)
When I read your summary, I realised how much of the hobbits' journey was covered in these two chapters!!!
I will post some maps and comments on the weekend.

[Beren3000]

Great job, Linaewen! Thanks for your effort.
Here are my thoughts:

-Frodo's dreams:
I don't know about the dreams he had in Bombadil's house, but I think that this particular dream came to him because he was carrying the Ring and in that way he was somehow aware of the Nazgul and what they did. But that sounds a bit farfetched to me :o

-The squint-eyed man:
As far as I recall, my first impression of him was that he was a spy of Mordor; a resident of Bree somehow corrupted or coerced into spying on the lands around the Shire. Even after having watched the FOTR movie before reading the book and knowing how Saruman was evil, I never thought that this man could be Saruman's spy.

-Strider's warnings:
I don't understand this myself, however it appears to be a popular theme in fantasy stories with religious parallels. In The Wheel of Time, it is said that if you said the Dark One's true name (Shai'tan), you brought his attention upon you and all kinds of trouble and misfortune would follow.

Thanks again for writing this, Lin. :)

[brownjenkins]

great job!

these chapters remind me of a somewhat minor point which always bothered me in the movie/book comparisons... both LoTR movies (pj and bakshi) show the black riders (five, if i remember right) entering the hobbits' room and attempting to kill them... dramatic, but far from what the text seems to imply... first of all, two of the five were in buckland at the time... and of the remaining three, only two were actually seen in bree... and seen conspiring near ferney's place

which makes me think that maybe it wasn't the black riders who sacked the hobbit's former room at all, but some of their local associates

i seem to remember this being somewhat addressed in one of the HoME books, but i'm not sure

[Valandil]

...i seem to remember this being somewhat addressed in one of the HoME books, but i'm not sure
I think a letter...

[The Gaffer]

Woo-hoo! On we go. Very nicely done, Lin :)

Where to start?

The Moon
The word ‘moon’ is used a number of times through the chapter. What is its significance? I notice on the third page of ‘A Knife in the Dark’ that Tolkien actually uses the words ‘the Moon’, which I found interesting because it makes Arda more like our own world, doesn’t it, with one Moon, considering Arda has a very different geographical structure to our own earth.

Yeah, he uses the skies to tell us that this is supposed to be the same earth that we walk on. There a reference to Hunter with his shining belt earlier on, isn't there? (i.e. Orion).

But that's a great part, where the Moon is just starting to climb over the lip of the dell, and they spot a silhouetted rider :eek: *Gaffer changes his trousers*

The Moon is a powerful touchstone throughout. I'm thinking here of the earlier chapters' walks at night, the Window on the West, even the thrush episode in the Hobbit on Durin's Day *(when the moon was in rising just as the sun was setting), and, at the risk of getting too far ahead, the wonderful description of Minas Morgul:All was dark about it, earth and sky, but it was lit with light. Not the imprisoned moonlight welling through the walls of Minas Ithil long ago, Tower of the Moon, fair and radiant in the hollow of the hills. Paler indeed than the moon ailing in some slow eclipse was the light of it now, wavering and blowing like a noisome exhalation of decay, a corpse-light, a light that illuminated nothing.

Clearly, Tolkien was much moved by walking by moonlight. It was one of the things that connected me with his writing right from the start. I can remember, aged 13 or 14, being kicked out of a camp site at about midnight (long story) and having to walk several miles through the woods in moonlight to the nearest alternative. I read LOTR not long after and immediately recognised the description.

[Rían]

There's also a reference to the Big Dipper - I love the stars :)

There's a reference to the squint-eyed Southerner in UT (Unfinished Tales) - he was captured by the Black Riders and saved his skin by becoming their spy. (from "The Hunt for the Ring"). I can't find any reference to the Black Riders sacking the Inn, tho - interesting question!

[Fat middle]

Very good job, Lin. Thank you for the nice intro :)
i seem to remember this being somewhat addressed in one of the HoME books, but i'm not sure
Cannot remember now where... but in the previous chapter Strider says that he didn't think that the Riders were going to attack by themselves, and that they would probably use some of their associates.

[Linaewen]

Thanks for the lovely comments guys, hope I've done a good enough job. :)

Great job, Linaewen! Thanks for your effort.
Here are my thoughts:

-Frodo's dreams:
I don't know about the dreams he had in Bombadil's house, but I think that this particular dream came to him because he was carrying the Ring and in that way he was somehow aware of the Nazgul and what they did. But that sounds a bit farfetched to me :o
I think that's a really good theory. :) Though Arty/Cass, didn't you say something about dreams being sent by the Valar, before?

Expanding on your theory, maybe he had the dreams about that particular event because it created so much fear (on the Hobbits' part) and frustration (on the Nazguls' part). The heightened emotion made him more privy to their movements? Then again, I could just be making up complete rubbish here. :embarassed: :p

-Strider's warnings:
I don't understand this myself, however it appears to be a popular theme in fantasy stories with religious parallels. In The Wheel of Time, it is said that if you said the Dark One's true name (Shai'tan), you brought his attention upon you and all kinds of trouble and misfortune would follow.

They do that in Harry Potter too. I had thought, like you, that it had something to do with the enemy hearing them somehow and turning their attention to them, but Strider didn't strike me as the kind of person to be worried/paranoid about that kind of thing. But then I suppose he was much more knowledgeable about the dark powers than others.

[Artanis]

Lovely Lin! :)
I think that's a really good theory. :) Though Arty/Cass, didn't you say something about dreams being sent by the Valar, before?

Expanding on your theory, maybe he had the dreams about that particular event because it created so much fear (on the Hobbits' part) and frustration (on the Nazguls' part). The heightened emotion made him more privy to their movements? Then again, I could just be making up complete rubbish here. :embarassed: :pI did, I even said from Eru. :) And I still hold to that theory. But in this case I think your (Lin, Beren) thoughts suits the situation better. It is not rubbish that Frodo's senses were sharpened, both from wearing the Ring and from the dangerous situation. He may also have been worried about Fatty.

[Beren3000]

I think that's a really good theory.
Thanks :), I think your addition to it was good, too.

Arty, would you care to elaborate your theory or at least refer me to the thread you advanced it in?


They do that in Harry Potter too.
But in HP they don't say that it's going to bring the Dark Lord's attention on you. They just fear to name Vold...uh-I mean, you-know-who ;)

[Artanis]

Arty, would you care to elaborate your theory or at least refer me to the thread you advanced it in?In the Tom B. chapter discussions I said: I tend to see 'chance' and certain dreams as the means of a higher being to influence the course of history. Gandalf's meeting with Thorin, Bilbo finding the Ring, Tom turning up in the crucial moment. I think Frodo's dream about Gandalf on the tower of Orthanc would be an explanation offered to him on why Gandalf didn't turn up in the Shire as he was supposed to. I have wondered if Frodo was more receptive of this dream just then because he was in such a peaceful place as Tom's house.With a 'higher being' I was referring to Eru - theoretically it could have been one of the Valar, but I think it's unlikely, they had after all more or less retired, except that they sent the istari to Middle Earth to deal with the problems there.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Its is implied (at Bree: something like " 'They are terrible!' ...memory of recent pain") his that Aragon has had a recent unsuccesful encounter with the Nazgul, liekly the one in the appedix where a GROUP of rangers is beaten and driven off for the sarn ford. But here were have his driving off five of them with samll help from the hobbits. He seems to have gain some experence and stengh from his first encounter.

[Haradrim]

yeah Aragorn has probably faced them before and it defiantely helped him out when he tried to get the Hobbits to Rivendell.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

The power of the Ring is made evident by Frodo’s inability to resist putting it on. When he strikes at the Rider’s foot, he cries ‘O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!’. What makes him say those certain words?

In RotK Sam says something about remembering the Black Riders reaction to those words when Gildor and his company met Frodo, Sam and Pippin in the Shire.

Its is implied (at Bree: something like " 'They are terrible!' ...memory of recent pain") his that Aragon has had a recent unsuccesful encounter with the Nazgul, liekly the one in the appedix where a GROUP of rangers is beaten and driven off for the sarn ford.

I agree with this but surely he would have had knowledge of them from Gandalf (eg. they fear fire) and some knowledge that he would have picked up on his travels.

[Olmer]

he would have had knowledge of them from Gandalf (eg. they fear fire)
What makes you think that Nazguls fear the fire?
Gandalf fought with them with “such light and flame that cannot have been seen…since the war-beacons of old” and, yet, he lost them only by “escaping”.

[Linaewen]

Wasn't it the steeds of the Nazgûl that feared the fire, and so were driven in a panic into the river?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Sauron can put fire to his evil uses, as he can all things, but these Riders do not love it and fear those who use it.

IMO this implies that they fear fire and would avoid it if possible.

[Elanor the Fair]

Here is a map that shows the journey from Bree to Weathertop...

http://members.westnet.com.au/theherberts/cyberpix/lotr/bree to weathertop.jpg

Unfortunately, my map spanned two pages of my book. The dark shaded area is from the spine of the book. It was the best I could do with my scanning.

[Elanor the Fair]

This last map shows the journey from Weathertop to Rivendell. For the scale and key see the maps previously posted in the other discussion chapters. The dark line with arrows indicates the journey with the dates of each camp written next to the small triangles.

http://members.westnet.com.au/theherberts/cyberpix/lotr/weathertop to rivendell.jpg

[Elanor the Fair]

So that’s my “summary”. There was just so much I didn’t want to leave out in my beloved chapters. :D Some discussion points:

Ferny’s ‘Squint-eyed companion’
Incidentally, while talking about Ferny, he calls Strider ‘Longshanks’. Why?

Doesn't he call Strider "longshanks" in reference to his long legs?? Like "Getting around on "Shanks' Pony" means walking.

Other senses
“Senses, too, there are other than sight or smell”. What senses is Strider talking about? Feeling? Hearing? Or something else?

I think he refers to intuition here - and all of the little things that lead towards it. He refers to the troubled feelings that he and the hobbits experienced. He also refers to the intuitive manner in which the wraiths tracked them along their journey - although the Ring certainly contributed to this.

Strider’s warnings
Numerous times Strider warns the hobbits to not mention the name of the wraiths or other Mordor-related things, especially when they are so close by. Why is he so concerned about this, why does it endanger them?

I think this concept is opposite to the concept of Tom Bombadil "knowing the tune" for the things in his realm. Strider implies that saying the name of the Nazgul would give the Nazgul greater power, whereas Tom demonstrates that knowing the tune for something gives you power over it.

One possibility for Strider saying this is that the greatest power that the wraiths and Mordor-related things have is the power of fear. I guess you could say that be naming these things you increase the fear factor and therefore add to their strength. I'm not proposing this as the only reason, just as a possibility.

Glorfindel
He mentions to Strider that when he came across the Riders, they withdrew from him. Combined (or even individually?), wouldn’t they have the power to take on the Elf Prince? If so, why withdraw? I was thinking that for the time being they were focused on attaining the Ring and so did not bother with fighting Glorfindel

I think that Glorfindel did have the power to withstand the wraiths if they were not all together, particularly if it were in the daylight when they are not their strongest. Glorfindel does say that only those who were strong enough to ride openly against the Nine were sent out on the search for Aragorn and the hobbits.

Thanks, Linaewen, I really enjoyed reading these chapters and contemplating your discussion questions!! :)

[Linaewen]

Thank you Elanor, those maps are terrific! Thanks Telcontar as well :). Who said that, btw?

[Edit] Oh, you posted answers too, while I was posting. Brilliant.

Posted by Elanor the Fair
One possibility for Strider saying this is that the greatest power that the wraiths and Mordor-related things have is the power of fear. I guess you could say that be naming these things you increase the fear factor and therefore add to their strength. I'm not proposing this as the only reason, just as a possibility.
Interesting, but wouldn't one think that actually naming them would in fact demonstrate a lack of fear of them? I mean, if you were scared enough of something, you might not even dare utter their name. But actually saying their name shows that you are not concerned about them; that they are equal to you.

I was wondering about Glorfindel's strength. Thanks. :)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Aragorn on pg 185 when Sam replies 'Maybe. It is also as good a way of saying "here we are" as I can think of bar shouting'

[Elanor the Fair]

Strider’s warnings
Numerous times Strider warns the hobbits to not mention the name of the wraiths or other Mordor-related things, especially when they are so close by. Why is he so concerned about this, why does it endanger them?


The other possibility is that which is linked to superstition. You know how if you say something like...

"I haven't had the 'flu this winter", people will say that you shouldn't say it because it might happen as a result. People often say "Touch wood" after making a comment like this to ward off the bad omen.

So there is a strong historical background to bad omens occurring as a result of the use of words based on superstition - I don't know why!! Perhaps someone who knows about superstitions could shed light on this subject.

[Earniel]

The Hobbits are not entirely safe at Bree either, though. Their bedrooms, although not slept in, are ravaged and the stabled horses are gone. If I remember correctly, wasn’t there some discussion about who actually attacked, since Tolkien doesn’t explicitly state that it was Black Riders?
From the book, I always got the impression that the Black Riders were at Crickhollow at the time of the raid on the Prancing Pony. Possibly there were one or two of the Riders in the vicinity of Bree because they weren't all nine in Crickhollow. (The Witchking sure knew of to delegate.) But even if there were Riders in Bree itself, I doubt they broke in themselves but let some minions (I love that word) break in. Besides, judging by the fate of the door at Crickhollow, I doubt the Ringwraiths would have stopped at the Hobbit bedrooms when they discovered they had been fooled. :eek:

We also get a glimpse of the former might of the Men of the West, with their once magnificent structures now in ruins. Strider tells us some First Age history with the story of Lúthien and Beren.
It's those references to an ancient past that I enjoy so much. It gives you the idea of a world that isn't created just for this book but has its own long history with many tales still untold.

The power of the Ring is made evident by Frodo’s inability to resist putting it on. When he strikes at the Rider’s foot, he cries ‘O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!’. What makes him say those certain words?
Perhaps an unconcious memory of Gildor and his people. They were singing that song when they scared off the Black Rider.

Then another lightening moment comes when the hobbits stumble across some trolls. The image of Strider poking a troll (a stone one or not) is hilarious. :D The atmosphere of tension and fear is lessened with the reminder of Bilbo’s own adventure.
I agree, this was such a fun part. It wasn't Pippin alone who had forgotten Bilbo's tale, I hadn't expected the trolls to be those from 'the Hobbit' either. :D

But that's a great part, where the Moon is just starting to climb over the lip of the dell, and they spot a silhouetted rider :eek: *Gaffer changes his trousers*
I only found out how scary that scene actually was during this re-read. I put the book down and built up the scene in my mind. :eek: Tolkien definately didn't need a misty ruin to make the attack scary.

Clearly, Tolkien was much moved by walking by moonlight. It was one of the things that connected me with his writing right from the start. Yes, I noticed that too. Frodo, Pippin and Sam start out from Hobbiton in the dark, in Rivendell they leave at sunset too I believe. I always wondered why. The few times I walked in nighttime I kept tripping over anything I could find! Including my own feet. I suppose in the books the cover of night plays a role in the decision, but isn't daylight normally considered a better time for travel?

[Artanis]

I think that Glorfindel did have the power to withstand the wraiths if they were not all together, particularly if it were in the daylight when they are not their strongest. Glorfindel does say that only those who were strong enough to ride openly against the Nine were sent out on the search for Aragorn and the hobbits.I think so too. Glorfindel must have been quite confident with his own powers. He was riding openly on the road, on a horse richly decorated, and with jingling bells! It is more likely that the Nazgul would try to avoid him, than the other way around.

[Beren3000]

I have a question that I've always wondered about whenever I read Flight to the Ford.
The flood at the ford killed the horses of the Nazgûl, but why did that hinder their attack? Sure they feared water, but they could apparently overcome their fear enough to make their horses cross the river. Why then would the flood make them turn back? Could they be physically hindered by the rush of water? What are your opinions on this?

[Lefty Scaevola]

They are invisible, and they (or perhaps only Angmar) resistant to permenant injury from some weapons, but they are yet to some extent coporeal and subject to physical forces, such as the flood, and they interact with ordinary matter, wearing clothes, riding horses, weildding baldes, they were swept away by the flood.

[The Gaffer]

Good question, and one which I think JRRT left to our imaginations. I agree with Lefty.

The only clue I can recall is that Merry's blade broke "the spell that knit his undead sinews to his will", which implies that the "body" of a nazgul is held together by a magical force. There's no reason why that body wouldn't be, as a whole, subject to a great force like the river.

Maybe that's why they feared to cross rivers: an unrelenting physical force that couldn't be countered by their will.

[Beren3000]

Thanks for your answers, I feel enlightened :)!
However, Gaffer, I have my own theory as to why they feared water but it's too religious and I'd hate to force it on other people :rolleyes:

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

No come on Beren, lets hear what you got. If everyone said that then no one would post anything.

[brownjenkins]

I have my own theory as to why they feared water but it's too religious and I'd hate to force it on other people :rolleyes:

i'd like to hear it too... i suppose one could contribute it in part to the valar... i remember a passage from the silmarillion concerning melkor's inability to coerce any water-ainur to his side, and something about a subsequent dread of water by him and all his servants... it seemed to be one of the few elements of middle-earth that he was unable to extend his influence upon

[Beren3000]

it seemed to be one of the few elements of middle-earth that he was unable to extend his influence upon
Then that seems to confirm my theory. You see, in the Bible water was often used as a symbol for the Holy Spirit (it is used in baptism for that reason). So it's only logical that minions of the Dark fear it. Not so much of a theory, but a thought after all. :)

[Olmer]

Then that seems to confirm my theory. You see, in the Bible water was often used as a symbol for the Holy Spirit (it is used in baptism for that reason). So it's only logical that minions of the Dark fear it. Not so much of a theory, but a thought after all. :)
It's also a domain of Ulmo, a Vala, who did not have any compassion towards the Black forces.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

And Ulmo wasn't deceived by Morgoth Saurons master so all the more reason to hate it.

[Beren3000]

Yeah, that's a valid explanation, too. But I'm sticking to my theory.

[Artanis]

Tolkien was a dedicated Christian, so it's only reasonable that he used elements from the Bible in his writings. I'd guess it is not a mere coincidence that he let Ulmo be the Lord of Waters and also the one of the Valar who were always in opposition to the dark forces in Arda and never ceased to work against them.

[The Gaffer]

Well, that makes a lot of sense, in terms of explaining why Tolkien would want to represent evil things as being afraid of water. I would have thought that both theories (water=soul, Ulmo=dude) are compatible with one another

Ulmo was the one valar who never forsook Middle-Earth either (remembers Turin) However, Gaffer, I have my own theory as to why they feared water but it's too religious and I'd hate to force it on other people
Good instincts there, sir. However, in this case I think we can let you off. :p ;)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yeah it says that Ulmo never forsook Men or Elves even if the Valar were angry wuth them.

[Finrod Felagund]

In relation to water...and forgive me for this...but I recall in the Silmarillion, a tower (Barad Nimrais), built by Finrod Felagund on the coast, to guard from a sea attack by Morgoth...but it was unecessary, "for at no time ever did Morgoth essay to build ships or to make war by sea. Water all his servants shunned, and to the sea none would willingly go nigh, save in dire need"
Consequently, the tower was later taken in a land attack.

So it seems all evil creatures fear water...

Perhaps it has to do with an inherent fear in Sauron (and Morgoth), of things he could not master.

He did not fear Men or Saruman for example, because they were easily bent to his will. The elves were not controllable and he sought always to wipe them out. Similarly, he hated the dwarves because, even with the 7 rings he was unable to control them. Because of Ulmo's power, and Osse's unpredictability, no one set against the valar could hope to control the sea. And in any case, in any of us, anything we can't control, is to be feared.






Other senses
“Senses, too, there are other than sight or smell”. What senses is Strider talking about? Feeling? Hearing? Or something else?


I myself believe that this refers to the Ringwraith's connection to the ring, and the manner in which they can "sense" its presence...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Not all evil creatures fear water because the Watcher of the Water lives in water.

[Finrod Felagund]

Ahhh...very good point...
but that water in which it resided was stagnant, under a mountain and in a mountain pool, not connected to the power of the seas/rivers...

[BeardofPants]

Do we know that for sure? :confused:

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yeah didn't it run in to the Silverlode.

[BeardofPants]

Yes... but... the roots ran very deep, and namless things lived there, etc, etc. How do we know that further down, it didn't run into another watershed? :confused:

wait, wait... read your sentence wrong. Heh.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I don't think we do.

[Valandil]

I've been wanting to post much on this but haven't been able. Without checking back, here are a couple things:

1. Yes - 'longshanks' means 'long legs'... it was actually applied to a King of England... I think an Edward was King Edward 'Longshanks'. Anyway - whichever one it was - it was the guy who was the villain in the movie 'Braveheart'... I think he was about 6'-7" or so.

2. Just noticed this time through that when the three wraiths approach and Frodo puts on the Ring, that his sword seems to flame red and two of the three wraiths stop - but the other (who we find to be their leader - the Witch-King) continues to advance. Question: Was that how a special blade of the Dunedain would appear in the wraiths' phantom world? And was that enough to frighten the two lesser wraiths? That's what Frodo carried at the time - a blade recovered from the Barrow on the Downs - like the one Merry later used to... oh, don't want to give the ending away! ;)

More later... :)

[Artanis]

2. Just noticed this time through that when the three wraiths approach and Frodo puts on the Ring, that his sword seems to flame red and two of the three wraiths stop - but the other (who we find to be their leader - the Witch-King) continues to advance. Question: Was that how a special blade of the Dunedain would appear in the wraiths' phantom world? And was that enough to frighten the two lesser wraiths? That's what Frodo carried at the time - a blade recovered from the Barrow on the Downs - like the one Merry later used to... oh, don't want to give the ending away! ;) Interesting thoughts Val - swords made with Elvish skill has 'magic' qualities and changing appearance when evil creatures are about seems to have been one of them. But I doubt it has anything to do with the shadow world. Sting and Glamdring shone with a different light when Orcs were near, and Sting is several times described as flickering with a blue light when Frodo draws it. So, I don't think it was the origin of the sword that made the wraiths hesitate, I think they had expected to be able to take the Ring without a fight, and so were taken aback by the resistance Frodo offered them.

[Olmer]

I think they had expected to be able to take the Ring without a fight, and so were taken aback by the resistance Frodo offered them.
What if they DID NOT expected to take the Ring?
What if they WANTED the Ring to be delivered to the place far out of Sauron's reach?
Don't forget that they were not completely mindless zombies.Used to be proud and powerful kings , they were still keeping some of their personalities.
What if they saw the chance to their freedom from the 5000 years of slavery? :evil:

[Artanis]

What if they DID NOT expected to take the Ring?
What if they WANTED the Ring to be delivered to the place far out of Sauron's reach?
Don't forget that they were not completely mindless zombies.Used to be proud and powerful kings , they were still keeping some of their personalities. What if they saw the chance to their freedom from the 5000 years of slavery? Corrupted personalitites I would say. Not mindless, but their will was controlled by Sauron. I don't think they would have a chance to think about escaping.

[Olmer]

I don't think they would have a chance to think about escaping.
Then how to explain that they had a numerous opportunities to get the Ring without any effort and failed all of them? :(

[Valandil]

Olmer - are you postulating that they hoped either Elrond or Gandalf or some other worthy at Rivendell would take up the Ring and become their master? If so - they sure DID pursue Frodo to a great extent... even chasing him to the Fords of Bruinen... and crossing most of the Bruinen to take him back to Mordor.

Besides... (diverting from LOTR books only) - doesn't JRRT tell us somewhere that Sauron held the Nine Rings... whereby he retained control over these servants? I don't know if he would have lost that control even if someone else claimed the One... unless they were given time to master it, but that may have been destructive to the Nazgul itself... Elrond or someone having mastered the One, while Sauron tried to control them through the Nine.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I don't think that they did try to take the Ring, I think that they planned for Frodo to be corrupted by the Morgul wound quicker so he would take the Ring to Sauron and endure terrible torture.

[Olmer]

Olmer - are you postulating that they hoped either Elrond or Gandalf or some other worthy at Rivendell would take up the Ring and become their master?
I'm not talking about claiming of the Ring by somebody else. I'm talking about the one-and-only chance in 5000 years to get out of Sauron's control.They were binded by Sauron's domineering will , but they could slow things down without disobeying him.
Did you read "The Hunt for the Ring" in UT?
I spent quite a time poring over the pages.
It's a revelation. :)

[Valandil]

...Did you read "The Hunt for the Ring" in UT?
I spent quite a time poring over the pages.
It's a revelation. :)

Yes - but only once and about 18 months ago. And besides, you know how I take things much more at face value than you do! ;) :p

[Olmer]

Yes - but only once and about 18 months ago. And besides, you know how I take things much more at face value than you do! ;) :p
He-he... :D I am taking things at face value too, but sometimes I try to see what is the real meaning behind the friendly facade. Things are not always as they look like. ;)

[Valandil]

Any-hoo, something else from the end of this section:

When Frodo is making that last dash for the Ford, it's written that it appears to him as though the riders had shed their cloaks and hoods - and he saw them dressed in white and gray, and saw their helms and swords. Really - it's like he saw them as he did when he put on the Ring at Weathertop.

Now - I take it that this is because Frodo was turning into a wraith. I doubt the others saw the riders that way... or that Frodo would have seen them that way if he didn't have his wound. Their proximity may have either hastened the process, or enhanced his awareness of that spirit realm.

I think I only noticed in this reading that when Frodo just slipped past that last rider (thanks to Asfaloth!) he got breathed at... he felt what was probably a shot of the Black Breath! :eek:

[Olmer]

Any-hoo, something else from the end of this section:

When Frodo is making that last dash for the Ford, it's written that it appears to him as though the riders had shed their cloaks and hoods - and he saw them dressed in white and gray, and saw their helms and swords. Really - it's like he saw them as he did when he put on the Ring at Weathertop.

Now - I take it that this is because Frodo was turning into a wraith. I doubt the others saw the riders that way... or that Frodo would have seen them that way if he didn't have his wound. Their proximity may have either hastened the process, or enhanced his awareness of that spirit realm.

I think I only noticed in this reading that when Frodo just slipped past that last rider (thanks to Asfaloth!) he got breathed at... he felt what was probably a shot of the Black Breath! :eek:
So, he got doped with Black Breath? No wonder he didn't know which way to go. :evil:

[Artanis]

Then how to explain that they had a numerous opportunities to get the Ring without any effort and failed all of them? :(Fate. :)

More precisely, fate combined with the courage and high spirits of the Hobbits and Strider. The ringwraiths were not that powerful in the physical sense, their weapon was mainly the fear that they imposed in their enemies, as I think Val and Attalus have said too (but in another thread maybe). They were most confident in the darkness. They did not go for the Ring at Bree because they thought that there would be better chances later on, with the Hobbits alone in the wild and only Strider to look after them.

Also they were vulnerable to Elvish power. I don't think it was just a coincidence that Gildor & company turned up exactly when they did, I think it was some higher power at work there. It does not surprise me that the wraiths were put off by Elvish song, a song about Elbereth. Consider what Aragorn says after the attack on Weathertop: This was the stroke of Frodo's sword,' he said. 'The only hurt that it did to his enemy, I fear; for it is unharmed, but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King. More deadly to him was the name of Elbereth.Ai Olmer, this reply should perhaps rather have been in your new thread ... :o

Now - I take it that this is because Frodo was turning into a wraith. I doubt the others saw the riders that way... or that Frodo would have seen them that way if he didn't have his wound. Their proximity may have either hastened the process, or enhanced his awareness of that spirit realm.I think so too - Frodo was slowly turning into a wraith himself and could see the Black Riders as they were appearing in the spirit realm. He saw Glorfindel in that way too.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Yeah didn't it run in to the Silverlode.

no, it ran into the Sirannon, the Gate-Stream, but it had been blocked, so was effectively cut off from seas, rivers etc and consequently Ulmo

[Serenoli]

I was re-reading Book One today- and I noticed sth curious:

There's a poem about Aragorn where the following line occurs A light from the shadows shall spring

And then at the end of A Knife In The Dark, just before Frodo becomes unconcious, he gets a glimpse of Strider leaping out of the darkness with a flaming brand of wood in either hand.

I suppose the poem is not supposed to be taken literally but symbolically, but I think its curious all the same... that Strider should do just what was predicted of him.

Also, about Strider warning them constantly not to mention Mordor, or the Nazgul, I wonder if it is because saying or thinking about these brings to the surface the hobbit's fear of the Riders... and as the Riders are good at detecting the emotions of ppl, particularly fear, maybe that would draw them near... just a theory.

And sorry for being a year behind the times! :( Pity I only found out about this forum last week...