Tolkien's ?Mistake?

[elvishfaerie3088]

I think Tolkien might have made a mistake in his books...i can't remember which paticular book so i'm just posting this here.

Remember how Tolkien tells us that Hobbits don't recieve gifts on their birthdays instead they give gifts to their friends and family members who come to celebrate? Well then how come Smeagol and Deagol fight over THE Ring doesn't Deagol say he's already given Smeagol his birthday present and that this is his? Did Tolkien contridict himself or did i misread something?

[Valandil]

After being separated for about 1700 years before Bilbo's birthday party, and maybe 1100 or 1200 years before Deagol found the Ring, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Shire Hobbits had developed different customs from the descendants of the Stoors who crossed from eastern Eriador back over the Misty Mountains and into the area of the Gladden... which included Deagol and Smeagol.

[Lefty Scaevola]

The customs described in the Hobbit were shire customs, we have little infromation on custom of Hobbits outside the late third age Shire and Bree. Deagol is separated by over a thousand years, and some hundreds of miles from Bilbo.

[Radagast The Brown]

Actually, it was more like 600 years. Still, a big enough difference to make some customs change.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Wasn't there actually some question as to whether Smeagol and Deagol were evern Hobbits? In Gandalf's account to Frodo concerning Gollum, he states it as an assumption, doesn't he?

[Attalus]

Wasn't there actually some question as to whether Smeagol and Deagol were evern Hobbits? In Gandalf's account to Frodo concerning Gollum, he states it as an assumption, doesn't he?Oh, no! Another round of 'Was Gollum a Stoor?' fight. Somebody call Bacchus and Rob Roy. For the record, I think Gollum was a sort of proto-Hobbit, the missing link between Hobbits and Men. :p BTW, the Letters has a long, too long to quote here, explication of Shire Hobbits' birthday customs, but this definitely was within the bounds of tthose customs. He touches on Smeagol-Deagol, too.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Oh, no! Another round of 'Was Gollum a Stoor?' fight. Somebody call Bacchus and Rob Roy.LOL! You crack me up Doc.:D

[Michael Martinez]

Gollum was a full-fledged Hobbit. Not a "proto-Hobbit", primitive Hobbit, pseudo-Hobbit, or anything else. He was a Stoor. Gandalf's comment about Gollum's people being akin to the fathers of the fathers of the Stoors is made in the context of "the Stoors of the Shire" (which context has been established by the Prologue). Gollum was not a Stoor of the Shire. His people were descended from a group of Stoors who passed back over the Misty Mountains from Eriador without ever having settled in Arthedain.

As far as birthday gifts are concerned, Tolkien answered the question in one of his letters. Gollum's people did not observe the same birthday customs as the Hobbits of the Shire did. So, there was no mistake in the text.

[Attalus]

Gollum was a full-fledged Hobbit. Not a "proto-Hobbit", primitive Hobbit, pseudo-Hobbit, or anything else. He was a Stoor. Gandalf's comment about Gollum's people being akin to the fathers of the fathers of the Stoors is made in the context of "the Stoors of the Shire" (which context has been established by the Prologue). Gollum was not a Stoor of the Shire. His people were descended from a group of Stoors who passed back over the Misty Mountains from Eriador without ever having settled in Arthedain.

As far as birthday gifts are concerned, Tolkien answered the question in one of his letters. Gollum's people did not observe the same birthday customs as the Hobbits of the Shire did. So, there was no mistake in the text.I was going by that, and by the "Hobbits don't cheat" comment of Frodo's. He certainly was wicked for a Hobbit, but there are bad apples in every barrel, as Sam might say.

[Valandil]

...and by the "Hobbits don't cheat" comment of Frodo's. He certainly was wicked for a Hobbit, but there are bad apples in every barrel, as Sam might say.

Even that statement I take as Frodo's perception of a 'proper' Hobbit, or how a Shire Hobbit should act, in his experience... not a definitive statement about the make-up of Hobbits (like the famous 'Vulcans cannot tell a lie' thing from Star Trek - and Spock was actually lying to say so :D ). A Hobbit would be as capable of cheating as any Dwarf or Man... or even Elf I guess, as a Maia or Vala could fall...

[Beruthiel's cat]

Another excellent, thought-provoking thread, Val!!! I was going to say (before I read all the replies) that Gollum/Smeagol's people were related to hobbits (with some distance between them) or were an earlier version of the Shire hobbits...certainly as such (and because of the time element) there would be cultural and customary differences.

But it's very interesting to see the discussions...and now I'm not so sure about it anymore!! :confused: :eek:

[Valandil]

Another excellent, thought-provoking thread, Val!!!

But... it's not my thread! :eek: ;)

[Beruthiel's cat]

But... it's not my thread! :eek: ;)


It's all right, Val. I'll blame you for it anyway. I always do!!!

(Sorry, elvishfairy -- I'll blame the new job...no, let's blame Val!!! :evil: )

[Attalus]

! I was going to say (before I read all the replies) that Gollum/Smeagol's people were related to hobbits (with some distance between them) or were an earlier version of the Shire hobbits...certainly as such (and because of the time element) there would be cultural and customary differences.

But it's very interesting to see the discussions...and now I'm not so sure about it anymore!! :confused: :eek:Ah, yes, a familiar phenomenon. The more you know, the less that you are sure of. :D

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Another 'MISTAKE' that I've found is at Helms Deep Gimli says he has had nothing but wood to chop since Moria whereas when Legolas and Gimli found Aragorn and Boromir on Parth Galen Legolas said that they had hunted and killed many orcs but were more needed here. Anyway Tolkien was writing this for over 16 yrs. Can't he make a few mistakes?

[Haradrim]

That is odd. I wonder why Gimli said that, I mean it doenst furtherr the plot in any way so it just seems to be a useless mistake. oh well! :)

[Michael Martinez]

Another 'MISTAKE' that I've found is at Helms Deep Gimli says he has had nothing but wood to chop since Moria whereas when Legolas and Gimli found Aragorn and Boromir on Parth Galen Legolas said that they had hunted and killed many orcs but were more needed here. Anyway Tolkien was writing this for over 16 yrs. Can't he make a few mistakes?

He probably made more than a few mistakes, but the book doesn't specifically say that Gimli slew any Orcs at Parth Galen. So, we can let Tolkien off on a technicality.

And he didn't really spend 16 years on the story. He started it in December 1937 and finished the primary narrative in 1948, so he only spent about 11 years working on it.

The appendices required another 1-2 years' worth of work.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Another 'MISTAKE' that I've found is at Helms Deep Gimli says he has had nothing but wood to chop since Moria whereas when Legolas and Gimli found Aragorn and Boromir on Parth Galen Legolas said that they had hunted and killed many orcs but were more needed here. That could just be Gimli's mistake, internal to the story.

[Valandil]

Or maybe it's Gimli's sense of humor showing through... with a bit of a slam on how challenging it was to fight those particular orcs. :p

[Attalus]

Yeah, I've always put that down to Dwarvish hyperbole. :eek:

[me9996]

I think Tolkien might have made a mistake in his books...i can't remember which paticular book so i'm just posting this here.

Remember how Tolkien tells us that Hobbits don't recieve gifts on their birthdays instead they give gifts to their friends and family members who come to celebrate? Well then how come Smeagol and Deagol fight over THE Ring doesn't Deagol say he's already given Smeagol his birthday present and that this is his? Did Tolkien contridict himself or did i misread something?

No you didn't, Smeagol was a hobbit like thing called a stoor.

[me9996]

Another 'MISTAKE' that I've found is at Helms Deep Gimli says he has had nothing but wood to chop since Moria whereas when Legolas and Gimli found Aragorn and Boromir on Parth Galen Legolas said that they had hunted and killed many orcs but were more needed here. Anyway Tolkien was writing this for over 16 yrs. Can't he make a few mistakes?

They where fighting uruk-hai! I can see why Gimli thought he was choping wood! :D

[Forkbeard]

They where fighting uruk-hai! I can see why Gimli thought he was choping wood! :D

How do you know this was Tolkien's "mistake" and not Gimli's?

[Lefty Scaevola]

Actually, it was more like 600 years. I was refering to the time that their ancestors went different dirrections, not to the time Deagol lived.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

No you didn't, Smeagol was a hobbit like thing called a stoor.
stoors were not hobbit-like things,
the stoors were one of the 3 races of the hobbits
please read prologue I: Concerning Hobbits
Harfoots, Fallohides and Stoors were the three races.

[me9996]

stoors were not hobbit-like things,
the stoors were one of the 3 races of the hobbits
please read prologue I: Concerning Hobbits
Harfoots, Fallohides and Stoors were the three races.
Oh, sorry... I guess the tradishons were diffrent for stoors then

[Jon S.]

"The most critical reader of all, myself, now finds many defects, minor and major, but being unfortunately under no obligation either to review the book or to write it again, he will pass over these in silence, except one that has been noted by others: the book is too short." (LoTR I, 9-10)