Character analysis: Fëanor, Fingolfin.

[Beren3000]

I'll model this thread after Val's Isildur, Anarion and Elendil one.
The three steps for discussion in this thread are as follows:

1. Intro to the characters
2.Comparison between them
3.Speculation and controversy (my favorite part ;) )

I'll start with the intro

[Beren3000]

Fëanor
Most talented of the Noldor. His name means "spirit of fire", it was given to him by his mother. His father, Finwë gave him the name Curufinwë. He created the three Silmarils, fabulous jewels containing within them the light of the Two Trees of Valinor. The secret of the making of the Silmarils went with Fëanor to his grave. The Silmarils caused tension and strife among the Noldor; the most famous incident being Fëanor raising a sword to his kinsman, Fingolfin for the latter's trying to touch the Silmarils (IIRC). Once Melkor stole the Silmarils, Fëanor was blind with rage and named his enemy anew as Morgoth: the black enemy of the world. Having refused the Silmarils to the Valar already, he could not enlist their help, so he swore a terrible, blasphemous oath binding him and his sons to the fate of the Silmarils. After that, all of Fëanor's house were exiled from Valinor. A mysterious figure (most probably Mandos) meets them on the shores of Valinor. This figure utters the famous prophecy known as The Doom of Mandos or The Curse of the Noldor. Ignoring this completely, Fëanor goes on to Alqualondë asking for ships. Refused the ships, he and his people massacre the Eldar of Alqualondë and take the ships. Once they disembark at Middle-Earth, Fëanor orders the burning of the ships. This was done in order to prevent Fingolfin's house (which was also exiled for their belief in Fëanor's oath) from crossing the sea. Once in Middle-Earth, Fëanor wages a terrible war on Morgoth but dies in the first battle at the hands of Gothmog, lord of all Balrogs. It is said that when his spirit left his body, his whole body turned to ash.


Fingolfin
Kinsman of Fëanor. Fingolfin often argued with Fëanor about the latter's ill-temper and his covetousness of the Silmarils. After Fëanor swore his oath, urging all the Eldar to follow him, Fingolfin refused. His sons, however, believed in Fëanor and chose to accompany him. Seeing this, Fingolfin preferred to follow his sons rather than stay in Valinor mourning them. After Fëanor burned the ships, Fingolfin was forced to lead his people to the Helcaraxë, the path of grinding ice that linked Valinor to Middle-Earth. The harsh conditions of that crossing caused many of Fingolfin's people to die, including his own wife. After Fëanor's death, Fingolfin was established as the high king of the Noldor. He went to challenge Morgoth in a one-to-one duel. He managed to wound Morgoth's legs but was slain and Fingon his son established as high king in his place.

[Valandil]

Moving to Silmarillion forum. :)

[Lefty Scaevola]

Feanor appears predominatly motivated by hubris that anythings else, even to the exclusion of fatherly love, when seemly the hopelessness of the war against Morgoth, he reinforces the oath of his sons to fight it.

[Beren3000]

Yeah, that's the main "big point" of discussion I was planning to bring up. Thanks for doing so, Lefty Scaevola :) (do you mind if I ask what Scaevola means?)

Here's the question: how do you people judge Fëanor? Is he a villain who, "moved by hubris", blasphemed Eru and the Valar and caused so much misery and pain? Or is he a hero whose courage allowed him to stand up to the mighty Valar themselves? I think LS made his point of view clear already.

Myself, I agree with the first choice. I totally condemn Fëanor.
Will elaborate later:)

[Lefty Scaevola]

Is he a villain who, "moved by hubris", blasphemed Eru and the Valar and caused so much misery and pain? Or is he a hero whose courage allowed him to stand up to the mighty Valar themselves?Both, the Valar needed a good kicking at that point, and Feanor was the height of elequence and rhetoric when he moved the Noldor, and then answered Eonwe. But the robbery and murder of the Falmari at Alaquonde is right out, and further condenming his sons, rather than freeing them to make their own choices, after seeing the hopelessness of the cause, makes him a terrible monster, an indicia of pure sociopathy, self centerdness, valuing nothing but his own pride, desires, and impulses. But even sociopaths get some things right, even for wrong and evil motivations; the Noldor were needed to disapate Morgoths power.

(Scaevola (latin) means left handed, but with a more dignfied conotation than Lefty has.)

[Artanis]

Thanks for starting this thread Beren. :)

Just want to add a small correction: Fëanor's mothername was Fëanáro, which means 'Spirit of Fire' (fëa=spirit, náro=fire). Sorry for being so picky, but I'm fascinated by Quenya Elven names and would like to get it right. :)

My view on Fëanor was that he was a great Elf who suffered perhaps most of all in Aman, his mother being the first Elf to die in the blessed realm, and his father being the first to get slain. These facts are often overlooked when Fëanor is discussed. However, he was probably well spoiled by his father, who loved him all to much. He was prideful and loved the work of his hands, and was eager to gain knowledge, a fact which Melkor knew how to turn to his favour. My view on Fëanor mostly follows that of Nerdanel, loving the young Fëanor before the lies of Melkor had begun to work on him, but condemning his later actions (the rebellion, Alqualonde etc.) and the choices he made.

[Beren3000]

náro=fire
Intersting side note: the Arabic word for fire is "nar"; coincidence?
I will post my thoughts later. :)

P.S. thank you for explaining your name, LS :)

[Falagar]

Actually, the Quenya word for fire would be nár, o is the masculin ending. :)

I'll try to add some thoughts in this thread when I've read through the Silmarillion once more, and since I'm not planning to do that at the moment this thread will probably be buried deep before I can get to it. Ttt. ;)

[Artanis]

Actually, the Quenya word for fire would be nár, o is the masculin ending. :)Oh thanks for telling me. :) Even more alike to the Arabic 'nar' then. :)

[Beren3000]

I'll try to add some thoughts in this thread when I've read through the Silmarillion once more, and since I'm not planning to do that at the moment this thread will probably be buried deep before I can get to it. Ttt. ;)
Exactly what do you mean by that? *shakes fists in challenge* :evil: :D

He was prideful and loved the work of his hands, and was eager to gain knowledge, a fact which Melkor knew how to turn to his favour.
I strongly agree with that opinion; this concept is typically Christian, and therefore typically Tolkien :)
I also agree with your opinion condemning the adult Fëanor not the young one.

Now for the compare and contrast part:
Fëanor seems to be the complete antithesis of Fingolfin.
The former is proud and hot-headed, while the latter is modest and complacent. Fingolfin refuses to follow Fëanor's oath. He also refused to raise sword against Fëanor when the latter threatened him. He rather preferred to show his submission to Fëanor in order to avoid bloodshed. And, IIRC, Fingolfin tried to convince Fëanor of yielding the Silmarils to Yavanna.

I have another question to ask; we are told that the Elves go to the halls of Mandos after their death and stay there until their spirits are reincarnated. This account doesn't mention any sort of punishment for the "sinful" or reward for the "pious", so I wonder what Fëanor's fate was when he died. Was he punished in a way we don't know or did Earendil's voyage earn forgiveness for all of the Eldar?

[Artanis]

Fëanor seems to be the complete antithesis of Fingolfin.I think they were much alike actually, only that Ñolofinwë according to his name was the wiser of them, and so was able to choose differently from his elder brother. Fëanor was a hot-head for sure, but what is to say about Fingolfin's challenge of Morgoth after the Dagor Bragollach? A hasty and hopeless challenge, as hot-tempered as any imo. Fingolfin and Fëanor were also rivals all the time, both for the right to the kingship and for their father's appreciation and love. Fingolfin claimed to be the chieftain of all the Ñoldor after the death of Finwë, a claim which he had no right to, since Fëanor was the eldest son of Finwë.
I have another question to ask; we are told that the Elves go to the halls of Mandos after their death and stay there until their spirits are reincarnated. This account doesn't mention any sort of punishment for the "sinful" or reward for the "pious", so I wonder what Fëanor's fate was when he died. Was he punished in a way we don't know or did Earendil's voyage earn forgiveness for all of the Eldar?It is said that the Halls of Mandos is a place for contemplation and tranquility. So no, I don't think it the sojourn there is meant as a punishment. Nevertheless, the natural state of the fëa (spirit) of an Elf is to be in a union with the rhöa (body), so when an Elf dies, the fëa is suffering badly from the separation of its rhöa. This is why an Elf has a reason to fear death. IIRC, Mandos is the judge who decides how long time it takes before an Elf is allowed to reincarnate, I should think the time involved would depend on the will of the fëa to repent of its deeds. I would imagine that the need for repentance in Fëanor's case would be rather great, and he would perhaps not be so cooperative.

Eärendil earned forgiveness for the exiled Noldor, allowing them to return to the West, and made the Valar come to Middle Earth aiding the people there in their war against Morgoth.

[Radagast The Brown]

I think they were much alike actually, only that Ñolofinwë according to his name was the wiser of them, and so was able to choose differently from his elder brother. Fëanor was a hot-head for sure, but what is to say about Fingolfin's challenge of Morgoth after the Dagor Bragollach? A hasty and hopeless challenge, as hot-tempered as any imo.
I wouldn't call Fingolfin hot-tempered because the challenge, or at all. Fingolfin was desperate, and he thought he's going to die anyway - whether he challenges Morgoth or not. I'm not sure what he knew, but someone lied to him... andhe thought they were going to lose to Morgoth anyway. I assume he wanted to hurt Morgoth before he dies, because I'm sure he knew he cannot fight Morgoth.

[Beren3000]

but what is to say about Fingolfin's challenge of Morgoth after the Dagor Bragollach? A hasty and hopeless challenge, as hot-tempered as any imo.
He was driven by courage and desperation then. Fëanor was driven by pride and rage, he wanted a vendetta (on a huge scale of course) waged against Morgoth for very personal reasons. On the other hand, Fingolfin challenged Morgoth to a duel in order to maintain the honor and respect of the Noldor and prove that they're not to be subdued easily. I think the distinction is clear between the two actions.

It is said that the Halls of Mandos is a place for contemplation and tranquility. So no, I don't think it the sojourn there is meant as a punishment. Nevertheless, the natural state of the fëa (spirit) of an Elf is to be in a union with the rhöa (body), so when an Elf dies, the fëa is suffering badly from the separation of its rhöa. This is why an Elf has a reason to fear death.
Wow! I've never read that before. Where is it mentioned (not in the Sil., I hope or else I'll have to get an Alzheimer's check :o)? It does explain a lot, though. So Fëanor's punishment would be that his fëa would never be reincarnated and so suffer eternally; justice is served :evil:

RTB, I didn't copy your opinion, we just cross-posted!

[Lefty Scaevola]

The result of the duel, inclduing 8 wounds to Morgoth, show that it was not entirely hopless. If you can woulnd an opponents in so chancey a thing as personal combat, you have some chance to beat him. Remeber that Morgoth was arleady much disapated by the first 455 years of the war of the Jewels, and that he would be toppled about a century later.

[Radagast The Brown]

But isn't he the strongest of the Ainur that came to Ea? How can an elf, even if he was the greatest elf in Arda, can win? (Even if Morgoth wasn't that strong at the time, wickened from the power he gave to the earth. Or something like that? Heard it can be read in Morgoth's Ring)

[Artanis]

I wouldn't call Fingolfin hot-tempered because the challenge, or at all. Fingolfin was desperate, and he thought he's going to die anyway - whether he challenges Morgoth or not. I'm not sure what he knew, but someone lied to him... andhe thought they were going to lose to Morgoth anyway. I assume he wanted to hurt Morgoth before he dies, because I'm sure he knew he cannot fight Morgoth.You touch into another interesting matter here Rad, that Fingolfin should think that this was "the utter ruin of the Noldor". How could he think so, when Finrod still ruled in Nargothrond, and Turgon was king in his hidden city? Minas Tirith was still standing, guarded by Orodreth. You're right about the lies, whoever told Fingolfin that Fëanor's sons had been forced to flee from their lands did not tell all the truth. Himring was not taken, and Maglor and Maedhros held the enemy at bay there.
He was driven by courage and desperation then. Fëanor was driven by pride and rage, he wanted a vendetta (on a huge scale of course) waged against Morgoth for very personal reasons. On the other hand, Fingolfin challenged Morgoth to a duel in order to maintain the honor and respect of the Noldor and prove that they're not to be subdued easily. I think the distinction is clear between the two actions.I think Fingolfin was also full of pride and wrath and wanted revenge, but I agree that his challenge was also a valiant one, that it was not for personal reasons, and that his moral grounds were better than Fëanor's. Still I think he should have counted to 10 and then maybe been able to restrain himself. The Sil says that "a great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar." A magnificent sight I'm sure, but he should know that he was riding to a certain defeat and death. And I think he would have been of greater use alive, as High King among his people.
The result of the duel, inclduing 8 wounds to Morgoth, show that it was not entirely hopless. If you can woulnd an opponents in so chancey a thing as personal combat, you have some chance to beat him. Remeber that Morgoth was arleady much disapated by the first 455 years of the war of the Jewels, and that he would be toppled about a century later.It was truly a great fight on Fingolfin's side, but what were really his chances? A Vala against an Elf. The Sil says about Morgoth that "his might was greatest of all things in this world". He was only overthrown later because the rest of the Valar eventually made war against him.

[Artanis]

Wow! I've never read that before. Where is it mentioned (not in the Sil., I hope or else I'll have to get an Alzheimer's check :o)? :p No need for a doctor's call yet, it's not in the Sil. From the top of my head: HoME 10 (History of Middle Earth) Morgoth's Ring, Laws and Customs of the Eldar. I'm sure it is told other places in the HoME series too, but this is the only reference I can come up with right now. :)
It does explain a lot, though. So Fëanor's punishment would be that his fëa would never be reincarnated and so suffer eternally; justice is served :evil:Heehee. How cruel of you. :D ;) I think even Fëanor would have been allowed reincarnation if he had been willing to repent. But unfortunately I think he would not regret nothing, not even after his death.

[Lefty Scaevola]

But isn't he the strongest of the Ainur that came to Ea? Was, but vastly diminished in total strenth bu 455, and he had most of his remaining power invest in the constant domination of millions or billions of wills across Middle earth, and into phycical controll of the substance of ME, rather than have it invest in personal combat power (Unlike, say, the Balrogs, who have most of the much smaller power invested into a form for personal battle and terror). If he had a significant fraction of the power of a Vala directly available to his for the combat, Fingolgin would not have laid steel upon him. He defended his existance and rule through the bodies of others, in his vast armies controled by his power. He was vulnerable when this system broke down and he had to hazard his personal incanation upon the fieod of battle. Notice how he was otherwise catious never to expose his body to any enemy action, when his personal presences could have swung the result of so many battles. If he was not vulnerable in the flesh, he would have personally leb forces and obliterated Beleriand, starting with Doriath and Melian in the first battle. Knowledge and fear of his vulnerability kept him remote from armed anemies.

[brownjenkins]

i had a lot to say... but after reading this thread, i'd have to say artanis said it better than i would :D

fëanor was a hothead, no doubt... but that is no reason to call one evil... i think his love was strong for his parents and children and he followed his passions in the way he saw as correct... maybe a bit too strongly, maybe not

in the end, middle earth would have ended up a pretty gloomy place without fëanor

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Do any of you think Feanors pursuit of the Silmarils can be compared to Saurons pursuit of the Ring. Both after their own creations, both waging war on any who tried to prevent them doing this instead of aiding them.

[Beren3000]

Interesting thought!
Here is my opinion:

-Both were pursuing their work, but for different reasons. Sauron made the Ring to be an object of POWER and DOMINION so he pursued it in order to force his will on others. It was a matter of POWER to him. Not so for Feanor, he made the Silmarils as objects of great beauty in the first place. He made them to be admired and wondered at. When they were stolen from him, he wasn't outstripped of any power or anything, he just felt that it was a blow for his ego. His PRIDE required he recover the Silmarils. This pride was fuelled by Morgoth in order to bring about the Oath of Feanor and the subsequent Curse of the Noldor, etc...
So while Sauron was evil from the get-go, Feanor had good intentions in mind that were corrupted by Morgoth into his own dark purposes.

[Artanis]

Yup Beren, but let's not forget that also Sauron was corrupted by Morgoth at the very beginning.

[Beren3000]

Yes but he made the Ring with an evil purpose in his mind. AND, by the time of the making of the One Ring, he was so evil and corrupt, he might as well have been so from the beginning. (Did I phrase that correctly?)
AND, remember that Melkor, too was not evil from the beginning.
Interesting side note:
On the importance of language to Tolkien
Another incidence of Tolkien's belief in the power of words: when Melkor is exposed to the Elves for the evil Vala that he is, the angelic name of Melkor has to be changed by the elves to the rather dark name of Morgoth. *shivers* :)

[Beren3000]

Here's a question that occured to me. What if Fëanor wasn't killed that quickly? What if he survived all the wars of Beleriand? Would he have been included in the forgiveness of the Valar or would he refuse it in pride like Galadriel did? I wonder what it would have been like if he lived up to the time of the War of the Ring ...hmmm

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think he would have refused it in pride but made much more of a bigger deal of than Galadriel.

[Artanis]

I can't really imagine Fëanor survive all the wars in Middle Earth - he was too hot-headed! :D
But IF - what would he have done? He would have turned mad, not being able to regain the last Silmaril from the skies.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

If he had does anyone think he might abandon the oath seeing what others (Sauron) who have pursued their own creation have done?

[Beren3000]

Come to think of it, I don't think he would EVER be able to retract his oath. He was simply too proud to take back something that he had so dramatically said. But it'd have been interesting to watch him fight in the Pelennor fields for example. Or (according to Arty), go mad for the light of Earendil and either try to fly :D or steal the phial of Galadriel from Frodo. Man! The guy needed extensive therapy!

[Artanis]

If he had does anyone think he might abandon the oath seeing what others (Sauron) who have pursued their own creation have done?He could not just abandon the oath, at least not without being tormented. And I don't think he would want to, I think he was too determined, too proud, too darn stubborn. According to the Shibboleth, one of his sons died in the burning of the ships at Losgar, for which Fëanor was directly responsible. That incident didn't make him more humble. At the moment of his death he realised that Morgoth would never be overthrown with the power of the Noldor alone, yet he made his sons renew their oath.

There is a reason why he was never allowed to leave the Halls of Mandos.

Edit: Haha, crosspost with Beren. :p :)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yet one of his sons walked away at the end surely the oath would have stopped him

[Artanis]

Yet one of his sons walked away at the end surely the oath would have stopped himWhat do you mean? Which son walked away? :confused:

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I'm not sure but I read some thin in another thread about one of the sons of Feanor walking away from the oath and not pursueing the remaining Silmarils.

[Falagar]

You may say that Maglor, who threw away the Silmaril at the end and then left the memory of Elves, walked away; though he had more of his mother's gentle nature in him than the others.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Maybe but shouldn't the oath have done something about that or influenced it.

[brownjenkins]

There is a reason why he was never allowed to leave the Halls of Mandos.

i don't remember the sil saying he was 'not allowed' to leave... just that he never did

[Beren3000]

Maybe but shouldn't the oath have done something about that or influenced it.
IIRC, the Oath bound them to recover the Silmarils at all costs and allow none else but themselves to have them. The Oath never mentioned what they should do with the Silmarils once they have acquired them.

[Radagast The Brown]

I don't think Feanor would've survived the First Age, even if he didn't die in a war. I believe he'd suicide, like Maedros did, after taking the Silmarils and discover they burn his hand. Do you think the Silmarils would hurt him, though? After all he was their creator.

[Beren3000]

I think the Silmarils burning Feanor's sons' hands is quite symbolic; after pursuing the Silmarils for so long and causing so many miseries over their Oath, the sons of Feanor are denied the pleasure of the Silmarils and all the hurts they caused are brought back on them by the Silmarils themselves. I don't think it would have been different for Feanor, if anything it'd be more hurtful for him because he caused the greater evil! *Homer Simpson voice* "Lousy, power-hungry elf...!" :D

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I don't think that they would had burned Feanors hand because I think that in the Silmarillion it says something like that all others who take the Silmarils it would burn their hands.

[Radagast The Brown]

I don't think that they would had burned Feanors hand because I think that in the Silmarillion it says something like that all others who take the Silmarils it would burn their hands.Others? :confused:

I do agree... I think the would, because Eonwe says they're no longer Feanor's, or his sons'. That's why they burnt Maglor's and Maedros's.

[Lefty Scaevola]

I would say that the Silmarils would not tolerate the touch of thoses heavily tainted by evil, such as Feanor by the kinslaying, theft of the ships, and the burning of the ships abandonment of the majority of the Noldor, or his sons by the multiple kinslayings. Beren, Luthian, Dior, Elwing could hold it; The wolf, Maedhros, and Maglor could not

[Artanis]

i don't remember the sil saying he was 'not allowed' to leave... just that he never didTrue, but that indicates to me that he was not allowed. I think he would have wanted to go back, it was in the nature of the Elves to long for their bodies after they had died.

I agree with Lefty about the Silmarils.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

True, but that indicates to me that he was not allowed. I think he would have wanted to go back, it was in the nature of the Elves to long for their bodies after they had died.

But this wasn't an ordinary elf was it. I agree that I don't think he was allowed to leave but even if he was I'm not sure he would.

[Beren3000]

True, but that indicates to me that he was not allowed. I think he would have wanted to go back, it was in the nature of the Elves to long for their bodies after they had died.
He was possibly ashamed of all his evil deeds and didn't like people to be reminded of them in case of his reincarnation. I know he was very proud, but the Halls of Mandos are a very humbling place. Besides, as TD puts it, he was no ordinary elf, so he probably got a vip treatment from Mandos. I can imagine Mandos taking Fëanor by the scruff of the neck and shaking him while violently telling him off for all of his misdeeds :D

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Feanor realised the deeds he had commited were evil when he was dying but he still reinforced the oath upon his seven son's. Was that evil?

[Artanis]

Feanor realised the deeds he had commited were evil when he was dying but he still reinforced the oath upon his seven son's. Was that evil?I do not think Fëanor ever regarded his actions as evil, not even in the moment of his death. He did realise that the Noldor alone could not overthrow Morgoth, but I don't see any signs that this made him repent. On the contrary, he made his sons take on the oath once more.

[Beren3000]

Feanor realised the deeds he had commited were evil when he was dying but he still reinforced the oath upon his seven son's. Was that evil?
Arty already expressed much of my opinion on this point. I'd also like to add that, yes it was POSITIVELY evil to reinforce the oath on his sons because this way Feanor earned the wrath of the Valar on other people than himself. In other words, when he went down, he dragged many people with him.

[Beren3000]

Hoping Elemmire wouldn't mind, I'm here quoting a link that she posted in another thread:
The meaning of Übermensch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%DCbermensch)
Having read an essay about the concept of Übermensch in ME as expressed by Sauron, I had this idea: isn't Fëanor also an Übermensch? He certainly has gone beyond established morality and done what other people haven't dared before. So do you think that Tolkien intended to represent Fëanor as an Übermensch in order to rebut that ideal and show that it leads people who profess it to utter destruction and infamy?