Character Analysis: Elendil, Isildur, Anarion [Archive]

Beren3000

07-23-2004, 04:07 AM

Thanks for starting this, Val.
Here are my thoughts:

Elendil
Leader of the Faithful in Numenor and last of the lords of Andunie (IIRC). He's obviously a person of overwhelming influence in order to be able to keep so many people as he did faithful to the Valar. Arriving at Middle Earth, he formed the Last Alliance with Gil-Galad. He lost his life in a duel against Sauron but prepared the way for Isildur to cut the Ring off Sauron's fingers. He's also known as the Tall and the Steadfast for obvious reasons.

Isildur
Elder son to Elendil, he fought with him in the battle of the Last Alliance. While in Numenor, he managed (at his own peril) to acquire an offshoot from the White Tree of Numenor, thus starting the long tradition of maintaining the White Tree in the court of Minas Tirith. Having secured the Ring after the battle, Isildur falls under its spell and refuses to cast it into the Fire. He names it the "heirloom" of his house and, IIRC, Faramir (a very learned man) afterwards says of the Ring that it must be "an heirloom of great power" or some such quote. This is probably due to Isildur's setting down the story of the Ring in the scrolls of Gondor; it was there that Gandalf finally learns of the nature of the Ring. Having returned to Gondor after the battle, Isildur accomplishes many feats of adminstrative quality, so to say. He then marches off to meet the Orcs of the Misty Mountains in a vain sortie. This leads to the carnage of the Gladden Fields; where Isildur would have survived if not for the Ring. After his death, the Elendilmir he wore on his brow was recovered by two survivors and several other possessions of his. These were entrusted to the keeping of Elrond until the heir of Isildur would come.

Anarion
Second son to Elendil. He dies fighting in the Battle of the Last Alliance. Not much is mentioned of him (at least not that I can remember offhand):o
Maybe someone else can fill this gap.

I'll post my speculation later, gotta go now

EDIT: Here is the rest, I wouldn't wanna cram the thread with new posts:

I'll leave the compare and contrast part of Val's instructions for somebody else as it's not one of my strongest points. I'm not saying that speculation is my forte, but I just enjoy it more and can write more of it.
Here goes:

I want to start with Isildur and Anarion, the towers of Minas Ithil and Minas Anor were built after their names (in a way). And the interesting thing is they suffered similar fates. For example Minas Isil fell to Sauron's forces after a bitter struggle. In the same way, Isildur himself fell to the Ring's powers after a certain inner struggle certainly present albeit not mentioned.
And just as Anarion stood by his father till the end, so Minas Anor stood up to the forces of Sauron and weathered the storm.
On a more religious note, Elendil's journey reminds me of that of the Israelites throughout the Old Testament. They kept going toward the promised land after the deluge under the leadership of Abraham and his descendants. Though this journey shares a lot of similarities with that of the Eldar towards Valinor, I'm inclined to say that Elendil's journey, too was a reminder of that Biblical journey. It started with a purging of sin: the deluge (read: the Akallabeth) and then the people who remained faithful followed God's promise to the land of the Philistines (read: Middle-Earth), etc... It seems that such a journey is God's reward for their faithfulness. It is indeed stated (IIRC) that the Valar prevented the ships of the Faithful from being sucked into the abyss with the rest of Numenor.
Well, I'm done. Hope that was enough! :)

Valandil

07-23-2004, 10:39 AM

Hey Beren, nice start! I should have done more, but had the thought for the thread and posted what I did just before leaving for home.

First, a couple corrections: (1) Isildur did not go north on a vain sortie to attack some Orcs. He had decided to leave Gondor to his nephew, Anarion's son Menedil - and take up his father's kingdom of Arnor. He planned to go through Rivendell because his wife and youngest son (Valandil! :D ) were there - and from the UT account, to consult with Elrond about the Ring. He and his group were ambushed by the Orcs. His three elder sons were slain but he escaped only briefly, being slain by more Orcs while crossing the Anduin. (2) His body was not found by two survivors... but much later his remains may have been found by Saruman, who had the Elendilmir stashed away at Orthanc (UT). Before the Orc force reached them, he had sent two men away with his father's broken sword, Narsil. (ED: one other man, his eldest son's esquire Estelmo, also survived the battle, having been knocked unconscious and other bodies falling over him such that the Orcs didn't discover he was still alive) Also from the UT account, some of his possessions were found on the east side of Anduin, where he likely shed them in order to swim across.

Valandil

07-23-2004, 11:19 AM

Interesting thoughts about Abraham ("I will make you a father of many nations..."). Some also compare Elendil with Noah, for obvious reasons (FLOOD!). I too see a number of parallels with ancient Israel (though some of these are not unique to Israel alone). Numenor was a 'Promised Land' given to the Edain... they became, in effect, a 'Chosen People' and were more blessed than other men by long life, peace, prosperity, safe haven, protection in travel, etc. They became for a time beneficient teachers to the other men of Middle-earth (which I think was their intended purpose - as the purpose intended by Israel's God for His People was to be 'a light for all nations') but they eventually fell short of that purpose, even as we Christians perceive that the Israelites fell short of God's purpose for them (but not to be racist... we believe the Israelites fell short because they were people, like us - and that we would have fallen short as well... not because they were Jews).

Even in Middle-earth, with Arnor and Gondor, we have a 'North Kingdom' and a 'South Kingdom' - just as Israel became divided into a North Kingdom of Israel and a South Kingdom of Judah after the 3 Great Kings. I think Egypt also had northern and southern kingdoms, but these were merged into a greater single kingdom, while those of Israel and the Dunedain were a greater kingdom divided into two lesser ones.

The Numenoreans (both on Numenor and on Middle-earth) were also drawn astray from proper worship and acknowledgement of Eru and the Valar - to that of Melkor, Sauron and the Black Arts, just as the Israelites were drawn away from God to idol worship.

Valandil

07-23-2004, 12:00 PM

Now the brothers, Isildur and Anarion:

But first let's look at how the kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor came to be. The Faithful refugees of Numenor's fall escaped on nine ships, led by Elendil. They came to Middle-earth, but had been separated into two groups... Elendil's ship to the north with 3 other ships (4 total), where they landed at (I think) Lindon and went on to found Arnor. Isildur and Anarion each captained a ship... theirs and 3 others (5 total) ended up in the south - at Pelargir, a Numenorean colony. In both places, there were likely earlier colonists from Numenor in far greater quantity than those on the ships... but the family of Elendil, of the House of Andunie, would have been held in high regard by those (mostly Faithful) colonists. Michael Martinez wrote a nice article on this some time back:

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/47755

Isildur and Anarion then co-founded and co-ruled the south kingdom of Gondor... under the High Kingship of their father Elendil in Arnor. From the existing city of Pelargir, they established Osgiliath on both sides of the Anduin, upstream a bit - from where they ruled... and later, they each established a royal domain of their own.

One possible comparison is to Rome, which by legend was co-founded by the brothers Romulus and Remus, who had been raised in the wild by a wolf. They fought for supremacy though - which Isildur and Anarion did not - Romulus winning and giving the city his name.

The names: I've been told that 'Isil' is Quenya for moon while 'Ithil' is the Sindarin form... while 'Anar' is Quenya for sun and 'Anor' is the Sindarin. Thus, their given names (Isildur and Anarion) were Quenya for 'moon' and 'sun' but the place-names given for their royal palaces (Minas Ithil and Minas Anor) as well as their provinces (Ithilien and Anorien) were Sindarin. Elendil literally named his sons for the sun and moon... and in the reverse order that we mostly say them today. An earlier version of his notes has Anarion as the elder brother... but that changed. However, it seems that in Tolkien's works, the moon is often taken first... that's just from memory - can anyone confirm or dispute that?

Now - their personalities: Isildur evidently had a strong personality. At least it seems so in what we know of him. I suggest that Anarion could not have been as strong willed. I think of the relationship as somewhat akin to that of Boromir and Faramir. I think Isildur was a man of power... that he loved his brother dearly, but that he also wanted to have things his way. He was probably fine with the co-ruling arrangement as long as his brother went along with things (or, alternatively, as long as their father was alive). Anarion may have been strong in his own way, but happier when things were peaceful... adoring and looking up to his older brother... and just thrilled to be able to rule at his side. I suspect that Isildur was the 'senior partner' in the arrangement - but that they were both fine with this and worked well with it. Otherwise, they would have likely had a 'falling-out' a la 'Romulus and Remus' rather than ruling together and growing their kingdom for almost 110 years.

Interesting about Minas Ithil falling before the Enemy... I had only thought of that in geographic terms before... it WAS right on the borders of Sauron's old land (did Isildur choose to live close to the Enemy's land... sort of 'flirting with danger'?). Anarion actually fell near the end of the 7-year long seige of Barad-dur... I think in year 6, when struck on the head with a stone thrown down from above. If you can stand another Biblical reference, there's someone in there who's killed when a woman throws a millstone from the wall of a city he's beseiging. And Isildur actually stood with Elendil at his end, just as Cirdan and Elrond did with Gil-galad.

Isildur had a very interesting life. I expect Anarion may have too, but we don't know as much about him. Anarion did succeed in holding the line against Sauron's forces for five long years while the armies of the north prepared to come down and crush Sauron with their Last Alliance. I suspect Isildur was the type who would succeed at all costs... that greatness was written on him, unless his life should be cut short. However, I think I would have been happier to have Anarion as a friend.

Beren3000

07-23-2004, 04:04 PM

Great thoughts there, Val. You're right about Egypt having been divided into two kingdoms a northern and southern. However, their unification was not the peaceful one Aragorn managed to bring about. The southern king, Mina, subdued the northern kingdom by strength of arms and removed the capital of the unified kingdom to a more central place (not Cairo).

I don't think Isildur was flirting with danger as you say. I'd rather say he was keeping an eye on Sauron's land just in case. Or (on a more sinister note), maybe the Ring drew him to the place where Sauron's spirit still dwelled.

Maybe Numenor was a promised land but Sauron's whisperings in the ears of the king are very much akin to those of the serpent in the ears of Eve. So you might say that Numenor is Eden and the rebellion of the Numenoreans is the Fall. But how to explain the deluge occuring in heaven? Simple, Numenor was no longer heaven thanks to Sauron: unrest and greed stifled all happiness...

More thoughts later...

Valandil

07-23-2004, 04:15 PM

Yes - none of the analogies are perfect... just some similar things here and there. But Isildur built Minas Ithil long before he got hold of the Ring. In fact, he never lived there after Sauron sacked the place - 12 years prior to the time when Sauron fell, killing Elendil (and Gil-galad) and when Isildur took the Ring. So... I was following up on your thoughts about Minas Ithil falling quickly to Sauron... wondering if there was a symbolic reason that Isildur chose the land closest to that of their old Enemy (whom at that time they would have thought went down with Numenor).

Rían

07-23-2004, 04:29 PM

This thread title : "Character Analysis: Elendil, Isildur, Anarion" just made me get this picture in my head of the three of them lying on couches in a psychiatrist's office, looking at Rorschach ink blots and discussing their mothers ... :eek: ;)

An interesting side note - IIRC, Tolkien changed the sibling order of Isildur and Anarion around several times - even MORE reason to have them on those couches, poor confused fellows! :D

Radagast The Brown

07-23-2004, 04:53 PM

Interesting about Minas Ithil falling before the Enemy... I had only thought of that in geographic terms before... it WAS right on the borders of Sauron's old land (did Isildur choose to live close to the Enemy's land... sort of 'flirting with danger'?). Anarion actually fell near the end of the 7-year long seige of Barad-dur... I think in year 6, when struck on the head with a stone thrown down from above. If you can stand another Biblical reference, there's someone in there who's killed when a woman throws a millstone from the wall of a city he's beseiging. And Isildur actually stood with Elendil at his end, just as Cirdan and Elrond did with Gil-galad.
About the Biblic reference - it's not much like Gil-Galad and Elendil... because an evil King tried to conquer a building... the name is Avimelech, son of Gid'on. Gidon had 70 sons, I think, and Avimelech killed all of the them except one. then he tried to rule... I'm not sure what, or was it to stop a rebellion? Anyway, he was killed by the womna as you said.

On topic again...

Telperion was the older of the two trees, and Isil rised before the Anar... so yes, the moon in Tolkien is older than the sun, as in Isildur and Anarion.
From some reason, I imagined isildur and Anarion personalities much like Boromir and Faramir too.

I'm not sure Isildur went to live in Minas Ithil because he wanted to stop the enemy... or 'flirting with it' as Val puts it. The question is - did he know that Sauron was still alive when he went there?

Valandil

07-23-2004, 04:59 PM

:
:
I'm not sure Isildur went to live in Minas Ithil because he wanted to stop the enemy... or 'flirting with it' as Val puts it. The question is - did he know that Sauron was still alive when he went there?

I don't think he did... I imagine he thought it was safe... and I don't necessarily think he was doing anything of the sort really ('flirting with evil')... just thought I'd toss it out as a stray idea.

Yes - the story of Abimelech is not like that of Anarion at all... except their endings... and reading about Anarion's death always makes me think of the Biblical episode. IIRC, didn't he, when mortally wounded by the stone, ask one of his men to run him through with a sword, so it would not be said that he 'was killed by a woman'? :p (fate of the Witch-King! :eek: )

Radagast The Brown

07-23-2004, 05:26 PM

About the Towers (Minas Ithil, Minas Anor) and Anarion & Isildur:
I don't think there's a connection between their fates... I find it hard, because when you think of it, Minas Ithil fell first but Isildur survived longer, and although Minas Anor (Minas Tirith) still stood in the Forth Age, Anarion died in the more prior part of the war.

Yes, he didn't want a woman to kill him. :p Poor him... to be smashed by a giant stone, thrown from a top of a tower by a woman. :(

Beren3000

07-23-2004, 05:40 PM

About the Towers (Minas Ithil, Minas Anor) and Anarion & Isildur:
I don't think there's a connection between their fates... I find it hard, because when you think of it, Minas Ithil fell first but Isildur survived longer, and although Minas Anor (Minas Tirith) still stood in the Forth Age, Anarion died in the more prior part of the war.

The "fall" mentioned here is in the spiritual sense. Isildur fell to the Ring's power but outlived Anarion. Anarion, though he died first, kept to the "good" side till the end.

Radagast The Brown

07-23-2004, 05:50 PM

The "fall" mentioned here is in the spiritual sense. Isildur fell to the Ring's power but outlived Anarion. Anarion, though he died first, kept to the "good" side till the end.
Isildur was 'good' until the end too, although he wore the Ring and kept it. It's like saying that Bilbo was evil 3 years after he got the Ring - which is not true. Isildur didn't fall to the darkness.

When you think of it, the Ring didn't really kill him: he jumped into the Anduin, and put the Rign to be invisible so tha tthe orcs wouldn't shoot him, but the Ring fell off his hand. But without the Ring, he was dead even before.

Beren3000

07-23-2004, 05:53 PM

Radagast The Brown

07-23-2004, 06:05 PM

I'm not saying Isildur was strictly EVIL, I say he fell: the Ring, with its temptaion, is symbolic of sin or of the corruption of power. When a man sins we say that he's had a moral downfall but not that he's evil. That's what I meant; if I've phrased it wrongly before, I humbly appologize (not ;) )
Hmmmm.. I see. :) It's interesting, but you can also say it happened without meaning, since Minas Ithil has to be the first one to be conquered, as it is closer to Mordor.

Do you think that if Anarion had survived, instead of Isildur, he'd throw the Ring to Orodruin, or take it as a heirloom like Isildur? And what about Elendil?

Elanor the Fair

07-23-2004, 06:57 PM

Elanor the Fair

07-23-2004, 07:14 PM

Numenor representing heaven.....

Well, I always saw it with a scientific eye. The links I perceive are with the legendary Atlantis and current Iceland. Atlantis was purported to have been located on the Mid-Atlantic Ridge. Iceland is located on the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, so the parallels between them are evident.

Iceland is a part of the ridge where the volcanic activity has raised the ridge to above sea level. In time, (sorry to all Icelanders!!!) it is possible that the islands of Iceland will collapse under sea level - but not in the next thousand years!! :) This is how the legends of Atlantis are explained scientifically.

I see Numenor as being situated on a mid-ocean ridge - it was mountainous after all, and just look at its position in relation to the continents. In time, it was bound to collapse (scientifically :)).

Tolkien was a learned man. Good mythology often explains scientific phenomena!! It is just another illustration of how Tolkien is inclusive of a wide audience. :)

Lefty Scaevola

07-23-2004, 11:21 PM

I have not figured out the point fo why Isuidur went all the way north to Atnor after Minas Ithil was take by Saurons forces. It was as if he was already planning to quit the joint kingship in Gondor, he took his whole household north, but there was not yet a vacancy for him to fill in Arnor.

Beren3000

07-24-2004, 02:26 AM

From my perception of Isildur, he was an honourable man, valiant and worthy. The fact that he did not destroy the ring does not suggest that he "sinned". Even Frodo could not destroy the ring and we know a lot about his strength of character and moral values.

Isildur most evidently sinned because he failed to destroy the Ring. The Ring was evil and giving in to its call is the most apt symbol (IMO) of sinning. This doesn't make Isildur any less of an honourable man. And so did Frodo sin (strength of character and moral values wouldn't be changed, they would just have a moment of weakness). We all sin everyday, but that doesn't mean we're all evil or vicious, does it?

As to your questions, RTB, I agree with Elanor that
Very few characters actually had the ring in their possession so it is difficult to judge if anyone else would have been able to destroy the ring.

However, I like to think that Elendil was strong enough to stand up to the Ring's powers. As to Anarion, we don't know a lot about him in order to make such a judgment.

EDIT:Val, here's something else that adds to the analogy of the people of Numenor and the Israelites of the Old Testament:
Denethor says: "we shall burn like the heathen kings of old." This emphasizes the idea that the Numenoreans were the "Chosen people".

Artanis

07-24-2004, 02:27 AM

I'm not sure Isildur went to live in Minas Ithil because he wanted to stop the enemy... or 'flirting with it' as Val puts it. The question is - did he know that Sauron was still alive when he went there?Hmmm - I wonder. Elendil and his sons knew who Sauron was, one of the Maiar, and from their friendship with the Elves they should also know that he could not die but would rise once again. I guess Isildur and Anárion stayed in the southern regions around Anduin because there were already many Númenoréans living there, people akin to Elendil, and the haven was a strong place.

Isildur, I do not understand why he fled from Osgiliath. Why didn't he remain there and fight beside his brother?

Artanis

07-24-2004, 02:33 AM

A quick note on sources: "The Fall of Númenor and the Lost Road" can be found in HoME 5.

Radagast The Brown

07-24-2004, 03:52 AM

Isildur, I do not understand why he fled from Osgiliath. Why didn't he remain there and fight beside his brother?I'm not sure myself, but it seems from the map that the river from Minas Ithil to the Anduin passes southern to Osgilliath. So, maybe the river carried him towards the sea. But then, I'd think he could sail against the river's direction, as he did when first came to Gondor, and my answer to this is, that or the river had more water and its flow was stronger, or that Isildur was in such a hurry, that he didn't notice where he's going.

Valandil

07-24-2004, 07:04 AM

Isildur went north to Arnor intentionally, to ask Elendil to gather all the forces he could to help them hold off Sauron... and possibly defeat him 'once and for all'. Some speculate that Arnor was the greater kingdom at that time. I imagine Isildur consulted with Anarion before departing for Arnor and they both agreed to the arrangement. It makes sense for Isildur to bring his whole family along, since they had been forcibly evicted from their own home... and the High King they were going to see was father, father-in-law and grandfather anyway. I imagine he took some sort of retinue along... and would have needed at least a skeleton crew to man whatever ship they took... so who knows, maybe the whole entourage was 100 people or more... but that wouldn't seem unusual for one head-of-state traveling to see another - in ancient times.

Valandil

07-24-2004, 07:07 AM

A quick note on sources: "The Fall of Númenor and the Lost Road" can be found in HoME 5.

Thanks Artanis... I've now added that. :) (and now I'll have to buy it! :D )

Artanis

07-24-2004, 08:34 AM

Isildur went north to Arnor intentionally, to ask Elendil to gather all the forces he could to help them hold off Sauron... and possibly defeat him 'once and for all'. ....But he could have sent a few messengers along to papa, instead of going himself. We all imagine him as a great warrior, so why didn't he stay behind and fight? I'm sure he and his followers could have done much for the defence of Osgiliath. I understand that he wanted his family to be safe, but it doesn't make sense to me that he should go himself. I can't help but feeling that it was a little ... ehh .... cowardly.

Lefty Scaevola

07-24-2004, 09:24 AM

However, I like to think that Elendil was strong enough to stand up to the Ring's powers. As to Anarion, we don't know a lot about him in order to make such a judgment..The quetions of anyone in ME, (except PERHAPS Bombadill) in "How Long". Sooner or later it would bite any bearer in the ass. ELendil would fall as well, the question is could he get it to the "Crack of Doom" (never mind the viusal I get form THAT phrase,) and toss it in before he lost that much of his will.

Lefty Scaevola

07-24-2004, 09:31 AM

Isildur went north to Arnor intentionally, to ask Elendil to gather all the forces he could to help them hold off Sauron... and possibly defeat him 'once and for all'. .That would be like Churchill in 1940 moving to Cannada with his entire household and staff, to encourage mobilzation there, instead of sending an envoy or two. Elendil is going to mobilze and come anyway when he get the info, all that is needed is an occasional messenger in a small shoip with the current war knews. There should be something else going on here. Perhaps the Dual kinship thing was not working out so well? It was never reinstituted.

Valandil

07-24-2004, 09:46 AM

Well... I'd say it was more like French leadership leaving France than Churchill leaving England. As a story device though, it was necessary to help give Isildur a compelling reason to go north after war's end... AND to allow for an heir to remain in the north, who was too young to go off and help fight the way. And THAT may be the biggest reason it happened. Even a messenger wouldn't really be needed... they had the palantiri, after all. We could even say that perhaps Elendil ordered him north... via palantiri (though it seems a bit of a stretch).

As for the previous arrangement not being re-established... that would have been hard to do since Anarion was dead. For Isildur to co-rule with Meneldil would have left Arnor's throne unoccupied... and IT was considered the senior and perhaps greater kingdom at the time. Plus, we're told that Isildur wanted to get away from the south after the war... (is that in UT maybe?)

Radagast The Brown

07-24-2004, 10:20 AM

As for the previous arrangement not being re-established... that would have been hard to do since Anarion was dead. For Isildur to co-rule with Meneldil would have left Arnor's throne unoccupied... and IT was considered the senior and perhaps greater kingdom at the time. Plus, we're told that Isildur wanted to get away from the south after the war... (is that in UT maybe?)Isildur, I believe, was considered after the war as the head of the Dunedain, northern and southern. After he arranged the boarders and government of Gondor, he went north, and since he wanted to get there as fast as possible, and via Rivendell, he went up the Anduin river.
And it was 3 years after the war.

Well... I'd say it was more like French leadership leaving France than Churchill leaving England. As a story device though, it was necessary to help give Isildur a compelling reason to go north after war's end... AND to allow for an heir to remain in the north, who was too young to go off and help fight the way. And THAT may be the biggest reason it happened. Even a messenger wouldn't really be needed... they had the palantiri, after all. We could even say that perhaps Elendil ordered him north... via palantiri (though it seems a bit of a stretch).He could leave the heir in Minas Anor or Osgiliath. They were as safe as Rivendell at the time, becasue if he won the alliance, he'd get to Rivendell anyway, sooner or later.
I don't think it fits France, becasue after all only half of Gondor... not even half of Gondor was conquered - only one fort, where Isildur lived. When I think of it now, it's very strange - why really didn't he stay to help in the war? :confused:

Valandil

07-24-2004, 10:31 AM

He could leave the heir in Minas Anor or Osgiliath. They were as safe as Rivendell at the time, becasue if he won the alliance, he'd get to Rivendell anyway, sooner or later.

No - what I'm saying is that Tolkien wanted to leave an heir in the North, more or less cut-off from the South, after Isildur and his sons who were of age to fight were killed.

It's not obvious in the appendices and UT, etc - but from the 'Peoples of Middle-earth' segments, we're told that Valandil was actually born in the North - in Rivendell, after Isildur arrived there, in 3430 SA. So he was only 3 or 4 when his grandfather, father and brothers marched off to war. So... Isildur's trip to Arnor and the birth of Valandil up there helped set the stage for what Tolkien wanted to achieve, from an author's perspective.

Besides... Isildur DIDN'T get to Rivendell anyway, did he? ;) If Valandil had been along at the Gladden Fields, there would have been no northern line and no Aragorn... and the Kings would have died out 1000 years before the War of the Ring.

Technically, Isildur stayed 2 years in Gondor, not 3... it was the year 2 when he departed from Osgiliath... but the year 3 when Ohtar brought the shards of Narsil and news of the attack to Rivendell.

Artanis

07-24-2004, 10:44 AM

No - what I'm saying is that Tolkien wanted to leave an heir in the North, more or less cut-off from the South, after Isildur and his sons who were of age to fight were killed.A possible explanation - but also a disappointing one. I'd like to keep the author away from this discussion. :D ;)

Valandil

07-24-2004, 10:58 AM

A possible explanation - but also a disappointing one. I'd like to keep the author away from this discussion. :D ;)

Whew! OK then... (feel like I need a smiley that sticks out its head, blows its top and spins its head around! :p ;) )

Alright then, how's this...

Anarion: OK... uh, I'll lead my forces here, as you ask... and then you'll lead your forces... here? Right?

Isildur: I've got a better idea. You take control of BOTH our forces. I'll take my family and personal guard up to speak with father... he'll know what to do. Plus, maybe we can get the Elves in on it.

Anarion: What? And leave me and my family to hold out here all alone? Couldn't we just send a messenger?? Or use the Palantiri?

Isildur: The Palantiri are too risky... I don't know if Sauron will find the one in Minas Ithil or not... I tried to hide it well before I fled. A single messenger could be intercepted. Besides, I would think it best to make the appeal to father personally.

Anarion: How long will you be away? Six months? A year? FIVE years?

Isildur: Maybe so...

Anarion: But why? You're a great leader. And each of your guard is a valiant warrior. Why should we take you so long away from the midst of the battle?

Isildur: Just a feeling I have... perhaps the foresight of the Dunedain.

Better? Huh? ;) :)

Artanis

07-24-2004, 12:24 PM

:p :p
Now you remind me of someone who used to frequent the movies forum. :D

I'll let it pass though. After all, the poor fellow is Valandil's father. :p ;)

Olmer

07-24-2004, 12:52 PM

Isildur was 'good' until the end too, although he wore the Ring and kept it. It's like saying that Bilbo was evil 3 years after he got the Ring - which is not true. Isildur didn't fall to the darkness.

When you think of it, the Ring didn't really kill him: he jumped into the Anduin, and put the Rign to be invisible so tha the orcs wouldn't shoot him, but the Ring fell off his hand. But without the Ring, he was dead even before.
I agree with you. Isildur DID not fall to the darkness, and definately he was NOT a sinner. On contrary, even reading Tolkien's revision of the story in UT you can't shed off a feeling that something quite not clicking in : the great king, brave enough to stand up Sauron, making himself invisible and running away(!), deserting his sons which is getting killed in the fitful fight. If Boromir managed to pummel the whole brigade of orcs, then the invisible warrior of Numenorian blood could overcome an army, being practically invincible!
But he is leaping into the WATER! You can't find the better place to be noticed!!!! Look like he is a deserter who is getting justifiable punished. :confused: Something is not right in the picture.

But wait a minute, it is the story, as it had been told to Gandalf by Elrond, who also was not present at the battle-place.

What if the situation was quite different and the great warrior did not try to to save his skin making such stupid decision not to fight invisible, but to hide himself in the water? The situation like this could arise if ANOTHER Ringbearer was present.
What if Isildur, jumping in the water, was not trying to escape, but in desperation sacrified his life trying to HIDE the Ring using the best available at present situation source -the deep waters of Anduin?
Then everything falls in place.
No, Isildur was not a sinner, he was a HERO!!!

Radagast The Brown

07-24-2004, 02:22 PM

What if the situation was quite different and the great warrior did not try to to save his skin making such stupid decision not to fight invisible, but to hide himself in the water? The situation like this could arise if ANOTHER Ringbearer was present.
What if Isildur, jumping in the water, was not trying to escape, but in desperation sacrified his life trying to HIDE the Ring using the best available at present situation source -the deep waters of Anduin?
Then everything falls in place.
No, Isildur was not a sinner, he was a HERO!!!
Olmer... in the Unfinished Tales,you can see that although we don't know what happened for sure, but can guess. We know what happened from a man, Elendur's esquire (that Val mentioned in the beginning) named Estelmo. He heard the conversation between Isildur and Elendur, and so knew what he was planning - to run away. Estelmo survived the battle, and probably told Elrond what happened.

Lefty Scaevola

07-24-2004, 03:41 PM

AND to allow for an heir to remain in the north, who was too young to go off and help fight the way.
As for the previous arrangement not being re-established... that would have been hard to do since Anarion was dead.
Easier Plot device to send the one young son with one of the message delegations to the north.
The dual Kingship would have been continued with the eldest son of Isildur, Elendur, Taking his fiefs and position in Gondor, while he ruled as Elendil did in the Arnor. No attempt was made for the dual Kingship or to in any way keep Isildur personal demsne in his family, thaere has to be a strong reason to give up both the direct co-royal rights, overlaord rights and income, and their personal lands in the the south. These guys do not casually give up lands that they love and own. He must have decided that the dual Kingship was a failed struct for some reason, but even that does not explain givng the land and income of his directly held domains, which could have been managed by a steward or other delegate if not a son, sending him the lord's shares to his privy treasury.

Valandil

07-24-2004, 03:59 PM

Easier Plot device to send the one young son with one of the message delegations to the north.
The dual Kingship would have been continued with the eldest son of Isildur, Elendur, Taking his fiefs and position in Gondor, while he ruled as Elendil did in the Arnor. No attempt was made for the dual Kingship or to in any way keep Isildur personal demsne in his family, thaere has to be a strong reason to give up both the direct co-royal rights, overlaord rights and income, and their personal lands in the the south. These guys do not casually give up lands that they love and own. He must have decided that the dual Kingship was a failed struct for some reason, but even that does not explain givng the land and income of his directly held domains, which could have been managed by a steward or other delegate if not a son, sending him the lord's shares to his privy treasury.
Then again, Sauron's forces had taken and occupied Minas Ithil. When the forces of the Last Alliance got it back, it may not have been fit to live in any more. Maybe only continued as a garrison for the next 2000 years.

And JRRT has Valandil actually born while Isildur is in the north.

Beren3000

07-24-2004, 05:44 PM

the "Crack of Doom" (never mind the viusal I get form THAT phrase,)

Hahahaha, that's funny! :D
Good point on that post, too ;)

Valandil

07-26-2004, 03:01 PM

...The dual Kingship would have been continued with the eldest son of Isildur, Elendur, Taking his fiefs and position in Gondor, while he ruled as Elendil did in the Arnor. No attempt was made for the dual Kingship or to in any way keep Isildur personal demsne in his family, thaere has to be a strong reason to give up both the direct co-royal rights, overlaord rights and income, and their personal lands in the the south. These guys do not casually give up lands that they love and own. He must have decided that the dual Kingship was a failed struct for some reason, but even that does not explain givng the land and income of his directly held domains, which could have been managed by a steward or other delegate if not a son, sending him the lord's shares to his privy treasury.

(well - even after I refuted you earlier, Beren said you had a good point, so I better try again! :p ;) )

I still don't necessarily think so... he was giving up lands which had been ravaged by Sauron's forces for 5 years... and by war for the next 7. He was gaining greater (more extensive) lands which had been untouched by Sauron and by war. By arrangement, he was still the overlord ("High King") above all Gondor, as well as Arnor. As to leaving Elendur to co-rule with Meneldil, perhaps he was feeling the effects of family separation from his own father ruling in the North, while he co-ruled in Gondor... and wanted to keep his immediate family close at hand.

Maybe that doesn't do enough to prove it to you, but hopefully I can at least cast some doubt that Isildur had definitively decided the 'co-ruling' arrangement had not worked. Maybe he felt it worked fine with him and Anarion... but didn't care to try it out with his son (in a ravaged portion of Gondor) co-ruling with Meneldil (whose land escaped direct contact with the effects of war). :)

Olmer

07-29-2004, 01:01 AM

Olmer... in the Unfinished Tales,you can see that although we don't know what happened for sure, but can guess. .
Right,Radagast The Brown,we don't know what happened for sure, but can guess, and guesses sometimes could be misleading.
What happened we know mostly from the words of Elrond. How realistic is his story?
And can we accept the account of Isildur’s death as it told by men who survived the whole ordeal and miraculously turned up in anywhere else, but Imladris?

I made a whole essay in defense of Isildur’s honour, but here I’m giving just my analysis of information about the eyewitnesses provided in the books.

Only three of his people came ever back over the mountains after long wandering. ( Silmarills)
Three of them somehow got together, even if the two of them was sent away much earlier. From that people came an information how and where Isildur and his men had been ambushed. But it was a contradictory information:
Isildur was overwhelmed by a host of Orcs that lay in wait in the Misty Mountains , and they descended upon him at unawares in his camp between the Greenwood and the Great River, night to Loeg Ningloron, the Gladden fields, for he was heedless and set no guard, deeming that all his foes were overthrown ( Silmarills)
Than, it’s another version, which probably, has been told by another “witness”:
They were passing the north borders of the Gladden Fields, marching along the path that led to Tranduil [B] realm …they heard the hideous cries of Orcs, and saw them issuing from the Forest… (UT)
Look like somebody made a fib. But maybe it was a fib altogether?

Let’s see what we know about this guys…
The first attack, when Isildur sent Ohtar away, happened in the late afternoon: “Save it (Elendil sword) from the capture by all means that you can find, and at all costs; even at the cost of being held a coward who deserted me. Take your companion and flee”
Then Ohtar (with companion)… fled down into the dark valley. (UT)
It was just two ways to go - North and South along Anduin, and by the night he and his companion, if they would take for South, would be quite far away from the danger, because even if Orcs marked their flight they took no heed (UT) , and by the time of the second attack , when night had come, Isildur’s men had marched one mile farther away.
How come that Ohtar turned up in the North, instead of taking relatively safe road back to Gondor? Was he disobeyed the King’s order and instead of fleeing, saving the heirloom, was following Isildur, hiding behind the bushes, watching the slaughter of the people who regarded him as “dear“ to the whole family? An esquire is more than a bodyguard, he is a man whom you trust your arms, the man who obliged to put this arms in the hand of his lord even being dead himself . Why he did not come to Melendil?
What was holding him forso long the whole year to get to Rivendell, while even at starting point Isildur planned to reach it in 40 days by an unhurried march?
It could be explained that for any esquire it was a great dishonor to outlive his lord on the battle-field, for the shame will be not only on you, but on all your kin. Better be dead!
Was a possibility of such outcome made him to take the most dangerous road - the High Pass, where Sauron sent such Orc-troops of the Red Eye, as he could spare to harry any forces that attempted to shorten their road by crossing the Mountains. (UT) They could let a big army to pass by, but 200 Dunedains was not holding them back. According to elve's intelligence, as it has been found out later, the Orcs of the Mountains were stiffened and commanded by grim servants of Barad-Dur, sent out long before to watch the passes (UT)
However if they remained alert and watchful, determined to attack any companies of Elves or Men that they outnumbered (UT), then Othar & Co just did not have any chance to walk through the High Pass without being noticed and hunted by Orcs, unless… they would pass with very numerous armed company of Men or… Elves
The chances of another big army of Men within an year passing through Cirith Forn en Andras was zero to nothing, but the Elves…

Let’s examine another consideration: the possibility that Ohtar crossed the Misty Mountains at another point - the Redhorn Gate.Crossing Anduin and the very treacherous mountain pass would definitely take more time, but not the whole year, because from Hollin to Rivendell just 16-17days of walk, and , being Isildur‘s esquire and “dear“ to his family, he certainly knew the way to the Queen’s place of abode, probably, had been visiting Imladris for numerous time with his lord .He just could not get lost, the land over there was safe for traveling, he did not get wounded in the fight , then how to explain that it took him so long to bring the news about the ambush of the king?

What if the story , told by Ohtar, in reality was totally different?
What if he DID NOT CHOOSE to take this way, but he was FORCED to go North, then all irrationality of his movement has a simple explanation.
Nobody was sent away, Ohtar had been wounded or stunned, just like Estelmo, while heroically fighting by the side of his king , and was laying uncounscious on the battle-field until had been noticed.
So Ohtar and other two men did not come to Imladris, they had been brought up! They were needed as an eyewitnesses for the “orc’s hideous manslaughter“.
We know the names of two “eyewitnesses” - Ohtar and Estelmo, who , most likely, spent the whole year in the elve’s dungeons and at the end brought out their life by falsifying the truth. Who was the third men we will never know, because he , probably, refused to “cooperate” and was quietly eliminated.

I understand that this is very heavy accusation, but I came to such conclusion because of the information given to us by the author himself.

Beren3000

07-29-2004, 04:40 AM

Look like somebody made a fib. But maybe it was a fib altogether?
Or maybe this inconsistency is due to the author's own shortcomings?

Valandil

07-29-2004, 07:10 AM

I don't think we have to view this as EITHER the author's shortcomings or a 'cover-up' by the Elves.

Remember first of all that these accounts - both from UT and from anything in 'The Silmarillion' - we put together from notes. Nothing had reached the point where JRRT would consider it 'final'... he was putting it all together, trying different versions of the story, trying to make it all work out, etc. So if we see some inconsistencies, I think it's only because we don't have a 'final, authorized, official' version... and maybe it's best that way because at the time of 'LOTR' this is very ancient history, so that mimics how things work in the real world... slightly different accounts of how something came to be... but the end result is generally more or less the same.

That said, because of its length and detail, I tend to give the nod to the story in UT... and view the other versions as somewhat simplified.

Now... as to the 'year' between this ambush (Third Age Year 2) and Ohtar bringing the shards of Narsil to Imladris (Third Age Year 3)... not necessarilly so. How much time was there between noon on December 31, 1992 and noon on January 1, 1993? Or between noon on January 1, 1994 and noon on December 31, 1995? In each case, if we look at the year alone, we would say, "one year"... but it's easy to see that there was only a single day between the first two... and almost two full years between the second two.

Now, from the UT account, Isildur and his men left Osgiliath in early Ivanneth (September), hoping to reach Imladris in 40 days. It was the 30th day of the journey when they were attacked... so early October. A foot-note tells us that they left on the 5th, so they were attacked on the 4th of Narbeleth (October) - and it also tells us that in the North, journeys were not usually begun between November 1 and the end of February, in times of peace.

Now... suppose Ohtar didn't know exactly how to get to Rivendell? OK - even if he was with Isildur all along, he maybe just went there once, when Isildur went to Rivendell, he stayed there in training, and then they left for the great war. He would have come from a different direction. He and one companion were alone in the wilderness, with scant provisions, hundreds of miles and a great mountain range separating them from where they needed to go (EDIT: and a wide river... a great obstacle in October when you want to carry a heavy sword across... maybe they waited in hiding a couple days then rafted it???). Crossing the mountains would be perilous for only two, and they had to have food to eat. They probably went quite slowly. I like the idea that they crossed at the Redhorn Pass, rather than the High Pass... but don't think it's likely that Ohtar had much knowledge of Lothlorien... remember also that Galadriel was not Queen of Lorien at this time... not for almost another 2000 years! The Elves of Lorien had fought with the Last Alliance, their king had been killed and Amroth, his son, was now their new king. Now, it's possible that either the Elves of Lorien, or the Dwarves of Moria, would meet and give aid to these allies... but they might as likely encourage them to stay through the winter... especially if they did not meet until nearly, or almost, November. That would be the only sensible thing to do. I suspect they actually reached Imladris in early to mid spring of Year 3... maybe 6 months after the attack.

Estelmo was knocked unconscious and, I'd think, likely wounded. He survived the battle, but was likely taken in by the woodsmen who scattered the remnants of the Orcs. He was alone, wounded, nowhere to go. He probably also wintered among them.

Upon hearing word of the battle, I imagine Elrond, Isildur's wife and young Valandil would have sent out a party to find whatever they could about what happened, guided by Ohtar. They could have found Estelmo then, learned what he had to tell of the story, found the items Isildur apparently shed at the edge of the River, and so forth. Then, Estelmo would have returned with them.

Sound logical? Satisfactory?

Valandil

07-30-2004, 04:00 PM

Now... the big daddy, Elendil!

He was the heir of the Lords of Andunie. Andunie was in the northwest portion of Numenor (Andustar)... and was the place the Elves came and landed most when they sailed from Eressea. Andunie seems to have been second only to the royal house. Indeed, their lords descended from Silmarien, daughter and eldest child of one of Numenor's early kings, Tar-Elendil. During Numenor's latter days, the Lords of Andunie helped the Faithful, but secretly, to avoid notice. Once Sauron was taken hostage and worked his way into the counsel of King Ar-Pharazon, Amandil, father of Elendil, fell out of favor... still, he and his family were not harmed, but they removed to Romenna - port city in the east of the island.

Amandil and Elendil both were considered 'great captains' in Numenor's forces. When King Ar-Pharazon was preparing the Great Armament to sail against Valinor, Amandil tried to repeat what Earendil had done over 3,000 years before... he sailed into the West, breaking the Ban of the Valar... but only to plead for his people. He was not heard from again though, and was apparently unsuccessful.

Following his father's advice, Elendil discretely gathered all that he could of Numenor's remaining Faithful... placing them aboard 9 ships he had in Romenna. He tried to hide the fact that many people, especially young (military-eligible) men were aboard, to keep them from being sent to join the Great Armament. And he didn't meddle in Ar-Pharazon's plan, but waited... appearing to prepare to join his father in Middle-earth (for Amandil had sailed first east, then either north or south and back west).

Then of course, the ships were caught up in the Great Wave and taken to Middle-earth, where Elendil established Arnor in the North and Isildur and Anarion established Gondor in the South.

Elendil was TALL! In UT, we're told of the Numenorean measure, the 'ranga' - which is about = 38". An note says that "man-high" meant two of these... about 6'-4"... and says off-hand that Elendil was nearly 2 and a half rangar tall! A FULL 2 1/2 rangar would be 95"... that's 7'-11'!!! OK - so what was he... maybe 7'-8"??? WOW!

Another entry in UT says something interesting. In talking about Isildur's eldest son, Elendur, it compares him favorably to Elendil:

So perished Elendur, who should afterwards have been King, and as all foretold who knew him, in his strength and wisdom, and his majesty without pride, one of the greatest, the fairest of the seed of Elendil, most like to his grandsire.

By saying it about Elendur and making the comparison, Tolkien tells us more about Elendil: strength, wisdom, majesty without pride!

Valandil

07-30-2004, 10:03 PM

Also meant to say: 'Elendil' means 'Elf-friend'

And... of the seven palantiri brought to Middle-earth by Elendil and his sons, one of them was not in accord with the others... it looked only to the West... toward where Numenor had been - and beyond to Eressea. Gil-galad befriended Elendil when he came ashore on Middle-earth... and built for him the towers of Emyn Beraid. This palantir was placed in the highest one, which was called Elostirion. Elendil was said to have spent much time atop this tower looking west into this palantir...

Among Amandil's last recorded words to Elendil is this: "...Then you will lose all that you have loved, foretasting death in life, seeking a land of exile elsewhere..."

His capital city, Annuminas, means 'tower of the west'.

Elendil seems to have been very sentimental about old Numenor... especially of what it had once been, while the Kings and people lived Faithfully... or of what it could have been, if they had returned in their hearts to obedience. He seems a tragic figure in some ways... and to have not spoken much. Of the little we have that he said, this is quoted many years later by Aragorn when he takes the crown of Gondor: "Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world."

Olmer

08-02-2004, 04:19 PM

Very nice summary on Elendil. His height is impressive, too bad they did not have a basketball team over there. ;)
I like that you included the Oath of the King of Faithful. In my POV this words depict Elendil’s intention to come to this land “for keeps”, his courageous resolution to accept this wild rough place on the earth as permanent home for his family and his descendants .

Your explanation of Ohtar’s account sounds logical at the first glance, but nevertheless it’s not satisfactory.

The story did not “put together” because, as JRRT told himself , the stories arose in my mind as “given” things, and as they came, separately, so too the links grew. So the basic of the stories , as Tolkien perceived it, was final and never changed. What was changed is the details, the” links”, given in later versions of the same stories and arranged by Christopher Tolkien in books such as UT , by which J.R.R.Tolkien tried to interpret the “given “stories and justify the actions of his heroes.
Therefore the inconsistencies in there was because he, pretending to be a historian recording what was already “there”, somewhere , was trying to explain the events of the history as they were rather revealed through him then by him, but , as any historian, he was giving just one version of events, which does not mean exclusion of others, very “different accounts of how something came to be..”,( as you just said ), as it usually happens in the real world. :)

Your point on the dates is very valid. I did not check with this first. Bummer!! :confused:
Still, even taking in consideration that Ohtar used the Redhorn Gates to pass, it doesn’t justify his tardiness, and I explain why.

As I said before, an esquire is more than an attendant, he is the master’s right hand, and had to attend him wherever he goes, besides ”Ohtar was dear to Isildur and of his own kin”(UT), which means that he was not a “trainee”, and has been quite long time around to became favored even by the king’s relatives. And since Isildur knew the land well, for he had journeyed there often before the War of the Alliance.. (UT) we can safely presume that Ohtar, accompanying him, knew quite well the way around, and the road which was leading along the Silverlode, past Lorien and up to the Redhorn Gates should be familiar to him.

So, the only obstruction on the east side of the mountains was the crossing of Anduin. How long you have to wait in dire errand to cross the river? Definitely, not 4 month! If Aragorn could swim across Anduin carrying Gollum, then for a man of a Numenorian bearing it should not be an obstacle either. Then 2 -3 days by the road to the Pass. Crossing the Redhorn should not be a big problem also, because in October it was relatively safe and clean road.
Then for 3-4 days he took an ancient road, that had once been broad and well planned,”.(FTOR) from the mountain pass to Hollin where the land and weather was milder even in the winter time and
it was still October. Even without knowledge of the area, you can follow the mountain range North to come eventually to the Brunien and therefore to the Great East Road in Imladris vicinity.

Now comes the longest and more difficult part of the journey , because south of Rivendell they (mountains) rose even higher, and bent westwards; and about the feet of the main range there was tumbled an ever wilder land of bleak hills, and deep valleys filled with turbulent waters. Path were few and winding, and led them often only to the edge of some sheer fall, or down into treacherous swamp.(FOTR) I can imagine it could really deter you for some time. If the Fellowship walked through it in 14 days in the middle of the winter, I would give a month -and -half to Ohtar to figure out the way to Rivendell .
Now, let's count: the ambush happened on October 4, 1-3 days to cross Anduin, 2-4 days from Anduin to Redhorn Gates, crossing the mountains by the road with a big stretch -3 days, then 3-4 days to walk across the Hollin land .He is reaching the most difficult terrain by the middle of October, so he supposed to reach Imladris somewhere in the end of November. Now, even if we accept the fact that he came there in January, where the heck he had been for another two month? Sitting , waiting out like some rat in the hole?
I doubt that the man, a soldier, of his stature and courage with the VERY important message to deliver would be encouraged by anyone to halt his mission and postpone (!) bringing to his superiors the news of such vital significance.

Your explanation about Estelmo survival through the winter sounds very logical. But , even if Estelmo was not “encouraged “ to tell about the last words of the king, in his recollection we catch the glimpse of the terrible truth.

Telcontar_Dunedain

08-12-2004, 04:40 PM

Upon hearing word of the battle, I imagine Elrond, Isildur's wife and young Valandil would have sent out a party to find whatever they could about what happened, guided by Ohtar. They could have found Estelmo then, learned what he had to tell of the story, found the items Isildur apparently shed at the edge of the River, and so forth. Then, Estelmo would have returned with them.

I disagree with this. In Unfinished Tales it says that soon after the battle King Thranduril's elves came upon the orcs and none were left alive. Surely Elrond would not have sent out a party to travel this distance, knowing that some orcs could still be alive and that other elves lived within 2 days march. I'm sure hearing this news and where Ohtar was heading King Thranduril would have sent Estelmo with a company of his own armed elves and maybe even travel himself as the level of importancy that Elrond heard what Estelmo had to say. And Elrond didn't know whether Isildur was alive, dead or wounded he would not have wanted to set out only for Isildur to reach Imladris and find next to no one there. In my opinion Elrond was wise enough to know that the risk on setting out is to high.

Valandil

08-12-2004, 05:53 PM

I disagree with this. In Unfinished Tales it says that soon after the battle King Thranduril's elves came upon the orcs and none were left alive. Surely Elrond would not have sent out a party to travel this distance, knowing that some orcs could still be alive and that other elves lived within 2 days march. I'm sure hearing this news and where Ohtar was heading King Thranduril would have sent Estelmo with a company of his own armed elves and maybe even travel himself as the level of importancy that Elrond heard what Estelmo had to say. And Elrond didn't know whether Isildur was alive, dead or wounded he would not have wanted to set out only for Isildur to reach Imladris and find next to no one there. In my opinion Elrond was wise enough to know that the risk on setting out is to high.

That's OK, I still agree with myself. ;) First of all, I didn't say Elrond had to go himself (though he may have)... and I believe Imladris had plenty of inhabitants... they could send out a search party and hardly leave the place deserted. I'm not saying this is DEFINITELY how they got Estelmo's story... but it seems one plausible explanation. I definitely DO think Elrond, Isildur's wife/widow and son would ALL want to find out all they could about what had happened.

If Thranduil had sent an armed escort to Imladris with Estelmo, they would have arrived there before the year was out - and therefore before Ohtar - which doesn't line up with the rest of the information we have.

Telcontar_Dunedain

08-13-2004, 02:19 AM

If Thranduil had sent an armed escort to Imladris with Estelmo, they would have arrived there before the year was out - and therefore before Ohtar - which doesn't line up with the rest of the information we have.

That would depend on when they left. For all we know Estelmo could have been badly wounded and if that was so then they wouldn't have left straight after they found him.

Earniel

09-04-2004, 04:27 PM

I guess I always thought about Isildur not destroying the ring in a different light. To Isildur the ring represented the death of his most beloved parent and many friends. It was a long and bitter struggle that he was involved in. He kept the ring as an heirloom for his people - and keeping it was sort of cathartic. It's a bit like people visiting the site where loved ones died.
I agree, Isildur kept the ring IMO also as a sort of 'weregild'. The war with Sauron had cost is Isildur his father, his brother and his fair city of Minas Ithil, it is understandable that he kept Sauron's ring - something the fallen maia treasured beyond all else - as a sort of payback.

Besides, I don't think the true betraying nature of the Ruling Ring was that well known at the time. Isildur may have thought it was not a dangerous item to carry as its previous owner was cast into ruin. I think no one could really have forseen the resiliance and the treacherous nature of the Ring at that time.

Telcontar_Dunedain

09-05-2004, 03:12 AM

He says that he will take it as a memory of his father and his brother but I agree that it's true nature wasn't then known and Sauron's strength while wearing it was just put down to him being a Maia.

Voronwen

08-31-2009, 10:46 PM

Elendil seems to have been very sentimental about old Numenor... especially of what it had once been, while the Kings and people lived Faithfully... or of what it could have been, if they had returned in their hearts to obedience. He seems a tragic figure in some ways... and to have not spoken much. Of the little we have that he said, this is quoted many years later by Aragorn when he takes the crown of Gondor: "Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world."

Yes, yes and this is why i love him so much! :o

I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread. :cool:

Valandil

09-01-2009, 01:00 PM

Yes - you keep turning up these good oldies. :)

What do you think of Olmer's theories? Had you read many of his posts before?

He basically doesn't idolize the Elves and their behavior and motivation as much as the typical Tolkien fan would - or as much as a hobbit chronicler would, for sure. ;)

Voronwen

09-01-2009, 01:06 PM

What do you think of Olmer's theories?
With due respect to him, of course, his ideas (here and elsewhere) strike me as a bit revisionist. I'm honestly not crazy about them, but i do appreciate the kind of creativity and 'thinking outside the box' that such theorizing requires, even if i don't always agree.

Valandil

09-01-2009, 01:11 PM

That's pretty much how I feel. I'm not a subscriber to that viewpoint - but it's very interesting to hear it, and he can put together a solid case from what we're given (although the other case can also be quite solid).

Voronwen

09-01-2009, 01:44 PM

Back to the idea of Elendil as tragic, sentimental... this is exactly what i wanted to evoke with my "Song of Voronwen" poem. I could just see him standing there at the palantir, sorrowful as anything, needing a hug from a lady who shares and understands his deep love and sorrow for Numenor. ;)

He has a quiet strength that is undeniable. His power is drawn from his noble heart, his connection with the past. He is an idealist and his is a love story, really. I see his fight against Sauron as being his ultimate avenging of Numenor, all of its peace and beauty, its history, and all that it stood for, all that he loved. In a way it's fitting that he gave his life to this fight, as tragic as that is.

I see Isildur as having a personality very different from his father's. Not so conservative/past-oriented. More fiery and driven. In the conversation between he and his son Elendur, we can see who is the hothead :p But Elendur has his grandfather's personality and takes the lead, in a way. He gives the situation that solid, level-headed kingly demeanor that his grandfather would have had.

Anarion seems different from his father, too. Perhaps he got his quiet strength, but in a different way. Perhaps he looked up to his older brother through the years as a role-model of sorts, but had a gentler personality. I guess we really don't know enough about him to say.