A second death

[Sister Golden Hair]

If we believe that Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell are one and the same, then we accept that Glorfindel died in battle with the balrog in the First Age and went to the Halls of Mandos, was released, and thus returned to Middle-earth sometime in the Second Age. As far as we know, he is the only Elf to return to Middle-earth after death. Why did he, and what would have happened had he been killed a second time? Would he return again to Mandos and be re-embodied again and then go to Valinor? IIRC, only one other Elf was subject to a second death, and that was Luthien.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Why did he,I should think that all of the Noldor who died in M-E would return to M-E if they should be released from Mandos and reembodied during the First Age. They were still under the Doom. But I would think that very few of the Elves would be released from Mandos after so brief time there. Glorfindel may have been an exception, because of his deeds in the battle of Gondolin and his fight with the Balrog.
and what would have happened had he been killed a second time? Would he return again to Mandos and be re-embodied again and then go to Valinor?I should think so.IIRC, only one other Elf was subject to a second death, and that was Luthien. Luthien was very special. Her second death was different, I would say it was not the death of an Elf.

[The Gaffer]

Was there some connection between how "good" a particular elf had been and how long they had to wait before being re-embodied? I seem to recall something about this WRT bad-boy Feanor never being reincarnated at all.

Surely Sauron hold the record, though! (Fall of Numenor, end of the Second Age and end of the Third Age)

[Artanis]

WRT? :confused:
You're right, Fëanor was never reembodied, but I don't know whether it was by his own wish or by the judgement of Mandos, or Námo as his real name was.
The length of time that they dwelt in Waiting was partly at the will of Namo the Judge, lord of Mandos, partly at their own will. The happiest fortune, they deemed, was after the Waiting to be re-born, for so the evil and grief that they had suffered in the curtailment of their natural course might be redressed.

[The Gaffer]

WRT = with respect to

Just joking about Sauron btw (by the way)

[Artanis]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
btw (by the way) Hehe - another TLA.

And this post is SOT, btw. :D

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
Hehe - another TLA.

And this post is SOT, btw. :D So off topic.:p :)

[Attalus]

I would certainly think that since Glorfindel certainly had Valar permission to return to Middle-earth, an unique thing, if he had been killed he would have been reanimated.

[Ulmo]

The 'two' Glorfindel characters are confirmed to be the same elf in a number of places. An early version of the Council of Elrond (found in HoME VI) mentions Glorfindel speaking of his history in Gondolin. Christopher Tolkien comments on this in the History of Middle-earth XII:

Very notable is "Glorfindel tells of his ancestry in Gondolin". Years later, long after the publication of The Lord of the Rings, my father gave a great deal of thought to the matter of Glorfindel, and at that time he wrote: "[The use of Glorfindel] in LotR is one of the cases of the somewhat random use of the names found in the older legends, now referred to as the Silm, which escaped reconsideration in the final published form of The Lord of the Rings." He came to the conclusion that Glorfindel of Gondolin, who fell to his death in combat with a Balrog after the sack of the city (II. 192-4, IV.145), and Glorfindel of Rivendell were one and the same: he was released from Mandos and returned to Middle-earth in the Second Age.

Why? In HoME XII, we're told why. His role was similar to the Istari, and Tolkien actually gave consideration to including Glorfindel with the Istari. (The matters of Glorfindel and the Istari are covered in the same section of this volume.) Christopher presents two different sets of notes Tolkien wrote when considering Glorfindel's later arrival to Middle-earth. The first 'essay' considers Glorfindel arriving with Gandalf as his aid, and notes Glorfindel's exception presence - the Witch-King would later fly from him, though all of the men he was with proved to be no threat to the Witch-King. The second 'essay' explains why and how he was sent back in great detail. This second set of ponderings supposes that Glorfindel didn't come late with the Istari, but rather in the Second Age, possibly before the fall of Numenor, maybe after 1200 when Sauron appeared in Lindon and tried to deceive Gilgalad or after 1600 when Barad-dur was completed and the One Ring was forged (when it "became clear to all the leaders of Elves and Men [and Dwarves] that war was inevitable against Sauron, now unmasked as a new Dark Lord.") The passage is far too long to post here, and I encourage you all to read it. Here are some excerpts that may help explain the 'why' and 'how' further:

From "Glorfindel I" as Christopher refers to it:

An Elf who had once known Middle-earth and had fought in the long wars against Melkor would be an eminently suitable companion for Gandalf. We could then reasonably suppose that Glorfindel (possibly as one of a small party, more probably as a sole companion) landed with Gandalf - Olorin about Third Age 1000. This supposition would indeed explain the air of special power and sanctity that surrounds Glorfindel - note how the Witch-king flies from him, although all others (such as King Earnur) however brave could not induce their horses to face him (Appendix A (I, iv), RK p. 331).

Why Glorfindel was allowed:

...It was the duty, therefore, of the Valar to restore them, if they were slain, to incarnate life, if they desired it - unless for some grave (and rare) reason: such as deeds of great evil, or any works of malice of which they remained obdurately unrepentant. When they were re-embodied they could remain in Valinor, or return to Middle-earth if their home had been there. We can therefore reasonably suppose that Glorfindel, after the purging or forgiveness of his part in the rebellion of the Noldor, was released from Mandos and became himself again, but remained in the Blessed Realm - for Gondolin was destroyed and all or most of his kin had perished. We can thus understand why he seems so powerful a figure and almost 'angelic'.

[The above quote also answers the question the Gaffer posted above: "Was there some connection between how "good" a particular elf had been and how long they had to wait before being re-embodied?"]

The following are from 'Glorfindel II.'

Now Glorfindel of Gondolin was one of the exiled Noldor, rebels against the authority of Manwe, and they were all under a ban imposed by him: they could not return in bodily form to the Blessed Realm. Manwe, however, was not bound by his own ordinances, and being still the supreme ruler of the Kingdom of Arda could set them aside, when he saw fit.

Glorfindel's importance to the Music in Gondolin:

More important: Glorfindel had sacrificed his life in defending the fugitives from the wreck of Gondolin against a Demon out of Thangorodrim, and so enabling Tuor and Idril daughter of Turgon and their child Earendil to escape, and seek refuge at the Mouths of Sirion. Though he cannot have known the importance of this (and would have defended them even had they been fugitives of any rank), this deed was of vital importance to the designs of the Valar.

Glorfindel's development after release from Mandos (almost equal to a Maia!):

He then became again a living incarnate person, but was permitted to dwell in the Blessed Realm; for he had regained the primitive innocence and grace of the Eldar. For long years he remained in Valinor, in reunion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in the companionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen by himself was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice. At some time, probably early in his sojourn in Valinor, he became a follower, and a friend, of Olorin (Gandalf), who as is said in The Silmarillion had an especial love and concern for the Children of Eru.

The section on the Five Wizards comes directly after Glorfindel's section. He's also mentioned a lot there. One notion explored there is that the two lost blue wizards came with him in the Second Age when things got rough, long before the other three wizards came:

The 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age. Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war in Eriador. But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose.

[unrelated to Glorfindel: that 'different purpose' is different from Tolkien's thoughts presented in Unfinished Tales where Alatar and Pallando arrive with the other three later and are led East by Saruman where they allegedly become entertained with their own cults and evil magic; another very interesting part of HoME XII, I think]

Turns out Glorfindel was (is) a pretty great fellow.

[Attalus]

Good post. It certainly agrees with all I know. :)

[Ñólendil]

Ah, Ulmo, you have given us a rare gift: the old thread killer. That's right, you may not have realized it, but you used this weapon, this old Thread Killer, and laid waste to the Horde of Posts-That-Might-Have-Been. "How did I do that?" you ask? Why, it's a complex process, but I can say that the Old Thread Killer can only be used by those with a hefty Tolkien book in their lap, time to kill, and patience to type a lot from the trusty book of heft. No one can really post anything of value after that, for all is defined that can be defined, and all other comments and contributions are in vain--a double edged sword, is mighty Thread Killer. I used to do that. ... Memories ...

Ulmo, O Dweller In The Deep, I salute you, for you have taken The Book Of Heft from my lap, and have placed in the palm of your holy hand. It is well that it is so. Only you can bear this burden. Only you.

*broods*

[Fat middle]

Good post. It certainly agrees with all I know. :)
But I'm sure that Ñólendil could add a bit more... ;)

[Fat middle]

:eek: I've been betrayed by the who's online :rolleyes:

I cannot believe you cannot add anything else... :p

[Ñólendil]

Alas that I cannot! For my Books of Heft lie stagnant in the garage, covered in the muck of neglect, and though my time indeed can be slain, I slay it rather with the Geekness of my mind when I engage in the noble pursuit of the Role-Playing Game. And that, sadly, is not the end of my troubles; my patience to deliver long-winded replies and quotes from the Books of Heft, even were they in my lap, has left me all alone. I linger now only to haunt the trees of Entmoot, remembering a time when I was free. *weeps*

[Sister Golden Hair]

< throws "Snickers and popcorn at ^. You're soooo dramatic. :p ;)

[Attalus]

:D I have been known to post in that vein, but I am reliably drunk at the time. But, that's just me.

[Willow Oran]

Well, if the original question has been answered, perhaps a follow up question should be asked.
Assuming that Glorfindel would 'pop back' were he to die a second time, do you think that such a think might have occured and gone unwritten?
It does say that he's in several battles after coming back to middle earth. What if he did die in one of them, do you think he'd have to go through the entire re-embodiment process again or do you think they would use a short cut?

(This is all pure speculation, but it's fun, so go ahead and discuss.)

[Haradrim]

When it comes to the whole reembodied thing I always thought of the Halls of Mandos as kind of a large retirement home and the winner of bingo got to be reembodied. :)

[Attalus]

Well, if the original question has been answered, perhaps a follow up question should be asked.
Assuming that Glorfindel would 'pop back' were he to die a second time, do you think that such a think might have occured and gone unwritten?
It does say that he's in several battles after coming back to middle earth. What if he did die in one of them, do you think he'd have to go through the entire re-embodiment process again or do you think they would use a short cut?

(This is all pure speculation, but it's fun, so go ahead and discuss.)Since Glorfindel returned to Middle-earth by the express permission of the Valar, a unique thing, I believe he would have been reembodied but probably not allowed to go back.

[Ulmo]

After dying twice, I doubt he'd want to go back! ;)

[Haradrim]

I have to agree with Ulmo wouldn't dying suck and not be very fun. ALso after dying twice wouldnt he feel a little tired of life. Also if he were to tell someon ehis age would he tell his age tallyied up or just his age from his life he was living.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I agree even if he had a choice I'd doubt he'd want to go back.

[Haradrim]

Yeah I mean Im sre its one kicking party back in the after-life. I wonder iof living is just a bar game in the after-life. :) hehehehehehehe. JK

[Michael Martinez]

Since Glorfindel returned to Middle-earth by the express permission of the Valar, a unique thing, I believe he would have been reembodied but probably not allowed to go back.

Where does it say that Glorfindel has "express permission" of the Valar to return to Middle-earth?

[Kara: ranger of the north]

ok, so, if elves can be re-embodied, than why fear death. even if they had a second death,they would be able to come back...so what is deaths signifigance?

[Wayfarer]

It huuurts!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Not all (not many) come back instantly, or soon even at all. I'd prefer to be in ME than the Halls of Mandos.