The Lord of the Rings Discussion : Chpts 7 and 8

[Rían]

Ring a dong dillo, it's TOM BOMBADIL! :D

When I saw we were going to do this discussion project, I decided to take these two chapters, because I've never been that wild about Tom, and I thought it would "stretch" me a bit. I know there are Mooters out there that like Tom, so let me hear from you guys!


Chapter 7 : In the House of Tom Bombadil

Things have changed drastically in the last 24 hours for our hobbits. Fatty Bolger saw them off into the Old Forest with a prophetic : "I only hope you will not need rescuing before the day is out" - and of course, they DID need rescuing, and Tom's the one that rescued them.

This chapter starts with : "The four hobbits stepped over the wide stone threshold, and stood still, blinking." The last chapter started with hints of other things outside of the Shire; here they have definitely stepped over the "threshold" into things outside of the Shire!

New characters : Goldberry, "daughter of the River". Also we first hear, via Tom, of the kingdoms and people that were in that area. I love how Tolkien throws in glimpses of the past, and you wish he wrote volumes on those other areas, too! It really lends an air of authenticity to his world. Also a tree is definitely introduced as a character - Old Man Willow (rather an undesireable character ... :eek: )

So basically this chapter is a brief stopping at the passage between worlds, where they are refreshed and strengthened after having been saved from Old Man Willow, and where they learn more about the world outside of the Shire.

Question 1 : The most interesting thing in this chapter, to me, was how the Ring had no power over Tom. What are people's thoughts on this?

Question 2 : So why the singing and rhyming? When my husband graciously agreed to read thru LOTR with me, I really started to lose him in these 2 chapters, and actually had to skip over them to keep his interest! *dodges rotton tomatoes thrown by Tolkien purists :D * (hey, at least he got thru the book - and loved it!) There's apparently just something special about music and chanting - you see it in several other areas, too - Gandalf, for example.

Question 3 : And why does Tom appear so ... well, silly? There's actually a brief tie-in with Gandalf (as far as laughing) in the last book that I just thought of ... anyone know what I mean?

Question 4 : Who do people think that Tom is? What does it mean when Goldberry answers this question with a "He is"? How does Tom answer this question when it's put to him?

Question 5 : An important hobbit subject - FOOD! Are Tom and Goldberry vegetarians? Who else in Middle Earth have we seen as vegetarians?

Question 6 : Night and Day - why, as Tom said, are some things "ill to hear when the world's in shadow"? Who else said something like this, and when?

Question 7 : Dreams - here are several dreams listed - thoughts, anyone? And what about Frodo's dream, which Gandalf said was actually BEFORE that situation happened? What does that mean? EDIT - nevermind, I was wrong :o - it was AFTER! But it's still interesting that Frodo saw him so accurately!

and Question 8 : Chance - here we see "chance" mentioned again - a theme throughout Tolkien. What are people's thoughts on this?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

well done rian
a wonderfull intro.

i will try to answer as many of your questions as possible, tomorrow
(1/4 to 2 am here!! :o )

[Rían]

Chapter 8 : Fog on the Barrow-Downs

One of the creepiest chapters in all of LOTR, IMO! =:-0

A few days with Tom and the fair Goldberry, and then time to leave ... how hard that must have been!

They leave on a beautiful autumn morning, "as nearly heavy of heart as was possible on such a morning". Off they go, then eventually they come to a mysterious stone that somehow is still cool even tho it is sunny outside... *ominous music starts playing* Then they fall asleep, a little longer than is strictly "canny" (as Tolkien hints), and the fog rolls in and they get separated and captured by a character we've only heard of in the previous chapters, but now get to meet (personally, I'd like to decline the invitation! :eek: ) - a barrow-wight.

Again we see the day/night theme - Goldberry warns them to make hay - um, haste while the sun shines, and they somehow fall asleep for hours and wake up while the sun is ... setting! and are then captured by the wights. It's in the same style of capture as Old Man Willow used, for Frodo - he knows something is wrong, but yet "he did not run away" - he's unable to...

Again we see the "chanting" theme - both evil (the wight) and good (Frodo's calling for Tom, and 4 for Tom - Tom responding, Tom "killing" the wight, Tom "breaking the spell" on the hobbits, and Tom calling the ponies) - and all these have different "tones" to them, according to the situation. No "merry dols" this time!

New characters : Barrow-wights! Ugh!

So basically this chapter is leaving Tom's house, and getting into trouble over their heads again, and Tom saving them again ... but now they have to move OUT of Tom's domain - hmmm, looks like they need some help, but Tom's now out of the question - who will replace him?

Question 9 : The most interesting thing in this chapter, to me, was the wight - truly creepy! Now why is Frodo still awake in the barrow, while the others weren't? Was it just that he was the last one captured, or is it for some other reason? And here we get a glimpse of the courage of this hobbit, and a theme we'll see later on in many places from other courageous folk - "yes, it looks like I've bought the farm, but I'm going out fighting for what is right!!" (I esp. love how Tolkien portrays this theme with the archers of Morthond in ROTK, and the charge of the Rohirrim).

Question 10 : More singing and rhyming - compare and contrast :)

Question 11 : Old Man Willow and the wights - what similarities does anyone see? We're starting to get some descriptions of "evil" characters - what are some common denominators? (hint - look at the beginning of the wight's song, before the incantation, and compare with Tom's description of Old Man Willow.) And feel free to talk about Smaug, too, for those who have read The Hobbit!

Question 12 : Frodo's first big "temptation" - starting with "then a wild thought of escape came to him..." - how does he deal with this, and what are the details of how he's tempted and his thoughts? Did the success here help him in later temptations?

Question 13 : What is the significance, if any, of Merry's thinking he's another person?

Question 14 : We see a different side of Tom's personality, esp. when he finds the broach - thoughts?

Question 15 : And again the dream/vision theme - and why would Tom have the power to make visions appear to them, and who else can do this?

Question 16 : Finally, they get the knives, which are extremely significant later on down the road - how are these knives special, and why, and when were they specially used further on in the book?

Question 17 : Why is it important for the hobbits to "keep up their merry hearts", as Tom admonished them?

and Question 18 : And why won't Tom leave his country?


Lots of questions! Have at whichever ones you like :)

[Rían]

thanks chrys, and get some sleep! (just not with your back against a cold stone ... :eek: )

[Elanor the Fair]

Thanks, Rian, for your great summary and stimulating questions. I've given my thoughts on just a few.


Who/what is Tom??

I always think of Tom as an existence, not a creation. He is the spark that happens before the flame. He is essentially a part of the primeval Middle-earth. Because he was not created the things in Middle-Earth that were created have no power over him - trees or rings!! It's hard to put these thoughts into words.


Are hobbits vegetarians??

I don't think so - remember that Sam cooked a rabbit! (not in these chapters, however!!)

On the subject of dreams .....

Frodo's dream in Tom's house was a premonition dream. There are many instances of premonitions or foreboding in the Lord of the Rings. I read a thread on that subject recently - in reference to Aragorn and his ancestors. Frodo had another premonition dream in Chapter 5 where he dreams of going over the sea.

Merry and Pippin's dreams are more like nightmares, where they re-lived aspects of the previous day.:)

[The Gaffer]

And Sam slept like a log. :D

Nice intro, Rian. I like how you didn't re-write the story and concentrated on the questions.

Songs and Poems:
I think this goes right back to the Music of Ainur. Those who have read the Silmarillion know that the world was created with music, and the the different themes from different Ainur wove together. Old Man Willow is introduced a great singer of songs. Later on in FOTR, we find out that the Elves sing to relive the past. Clearly, songs and poems have a literal power in Middle-Earth, and none can match Tom's. For this reason I suspect he's an Ainu.

I wonder: is this idea Tolkein's own or is it something that he adapted from Norse or some other mythology?

Also, of course, who is Goldberry?

As for silliness, I suspect that, since JRRT decided to introduce this character from another set of stories, he wanted to retain his personality. I don't have a problem with it, though if I was reading it aloud to a man with a 12-gauge, I might feel a bit silly :D.

If I can accept evil Willow trees, then I can accept blokes with a feather in their cap capering about and saying "ring a ding dillo".

BTW, I think Frodo's dream of Gandalf was "late in coming", not early. More significant is his vision of the Sea and his eventual voyage to Valinor. It's a very powerful spiritual dimension to the journey they are undertaking.

[Beren3000]

Really interesting questions, RÃ*an. Thanks for your effort!

Who or what is Tom?:
I've heard and read a lot of speculation on that topic, but nothing is for certain. I personally maintain that he's one of the Valar because he's not affected by the Ring. But your questions brought up a new possibility. One of the names of God in the Old Testament (Jehovah I think) is roughly translated into "the one who is". So could this possibly mean that Bombadil is Illuvatar himself? I think that this is too large a hypothesis to maintain. Of course this would answer the question of why the Ring does not affect him.

About chance:
I personally think that this is one of the most important themes in the book. Throughout the book, we see many examples of this "chance" that just happens to suit the Fellowship's needs exactly. Also Gandalf calls his meeting with Thorin in The Prancing Pony a "chance meeting". The point is, these are too many coincidences to be just "chance". I think this owes to something like destiny; because the Fellowship's goals are good, Illuvatar and the Valar guide their way through apparently "chance" occurences. Here's a simple example: Boromir's lusting for the Ring. This event is not unusual in itself. But if not for that, Frodo would have gone on to Rohan and probably would never have found enough motivation to go to Mordor. Other examples of small events influencing the course of history like that are found all over the books.

Why the hobbits need merry hearts:
Maybe because the barrow-wights can fog your thoughts and affect you by making some kind of sadness creep up on you. (This appears in Harry Potter with the dementors who suck all joy and happiness of the people around them; the cure: eating chocolate to get your spirits up). And maybe it was just because they really did need cheerful thoughts. After all, they've been buried alive and met with a ghost about a thousand years old, who could be cheerful after that?

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Beren3000
About chance:
I personally think that this is one of the most important themes in the book.
I agree. I think there's a really interesting relationship between chance, predestiny, free will and divine intervention.

In retrospect, it might look like the chance occurences followed a predestined path which suited everyone's needs, but perhaps this could be an illusion of hindsight. Just like the blame game that journalists like to play whenever something bad happens.

People still had to make the right choice. Consider Treebeard. The hobbits' arrival in Fangorn, and "chance-meeting" with him, precipitates Saruman's overthrow. In retrospect, it's tempting to see this as essential to the outcome of the whole book. Without it, Aragorn wouldn't have got the Palantir and lured Sauron into emptying his lands.

There may have been any number of other possibilities; but they all depended on goodly sorts choosing to do what was right.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Chapter 7 : In the House of Tom Bombadil

Question 1 : The most interesting thing in this chapter, to me, was how the Ring had no power over Tom. What are people's thoughts on this?
The ring has no power over Tom because (I feel) of who he is [see answer to Q4]. re: Council of Elrond; Erestor states that tom has a power over the ring, which Gandalf refutes by saying rather that the ring has no power over him.


Question 2 : So why the singing and rhyming? When my husband graciously agreed to read thru LOTR with me, I really started to lose him in these 2 chapters, and actually had to skip over them to keep his interest! *dodges rotton tomatoes thrown by Tolkien purists :D * (hey, at least he got thru the book - and loved it!) There's apparently just something special about music and chanting - you see it in several other areas, too - Gandalf, for example.
I feel that the excessive amount of singing/rhyming was due to the fact that Music is an integral part of Tolkien's world, do not forget that Arda was created by the music of the Ainur.

Question 3 : And why does Tom appear so ... well, silly? There's actually a brief tie-in with Gandalf (as far as laughing) in the last book that I just thought of ... anyone know what I mean?
Tom's silliness is pure lightheartedness. These things do not really affect him, and so he can afford to joke about them, it also serves to put the Hobbits more at ease, after their scares with the Nazgul and with Old Man Willow.

Question 4 : Who do people think that Tom is? What does it mean when Goldberry answers this question with a "He is"? How does Tom answer this question when it's put to him?
I feel that Tom is not a normal being as such, but more a being of the earth, a spirit if you will. re: The Council of Elrond; Galdor states that power is not in Tom to defy the Enemy, unless that power is in the earth itself

Question 5 : An important hobbit subject - FOOD! Are they vegetarians?
I do not think Hobbits are necessarily vegetarian, do not forget that in the Hobbit, one of the Breakfast items Bilbo has before he sets off to meet Thorin and company is Bacon and Eggs!

Question 6 : Night and Day - why, as Tom said, are some things "ill to hear when the world's in shadow"? Who else said something like this, and when?
Gandalf said something of this nature in chapter 2 'The Shadow of the Past'
"Last night you began to tell me strange things about my ring, Gandalf," he [frodo] said "And then you stopped because you said that such matters were best left until daylight."

[Rían]

Thanks, guys :)

Just a quick fix - I meant to ask were Tom and Goldberry vegetarians, not the Hobbits (who I know are NOT!) Kind of a what-types-of-foods-do-different-folks-eat question.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Question 1 : The most interesting thing in this chapter, to me, was how the Ring had no power over Tom. What are people's thoughts on this?

i've posted on this a lot in the past... but i think it boils down, not to any great power on the part of tom, but more, a certain inner peace with himself and his surroundings... he had no grand desires for good or evil and was perfectly content with his existance... so the ring had nothing to work on... i think a similar inner peace, but to a lesser extent, is why hobbits were so resilient against the ring's power

Question 2 : So why the singing and rhyming? When my husband graciously agreed to read thru LOTR with me, I really started to lose him in these 2 chapters, and actually had to skip over them to keep his interest! *dodges rotton tomatoes thrown by Tolkien purists :D * (hey, at least he got thru the book - and loved it!) There's apparently just something special about music and chanting - you see it in several other areas, too - Gandalf, for example.

i think it reflects tolkien's personal interest in poetry, especially of the nursery-rhyme variety... it was a good excuse to pull some of his own works out ;)

Question 3 : And why does Tom appear so ... well, silly? There's actually a brief tie-in with Gandalf (as far as laughing) in the last book that I just thought of ... anyone know what I mean?

somewhat tied in with question one, it's an expression of his self-content... he wasn't self-concious in any way, and was not afraid to express himself... even if others might see it as 'silly'

Question 4 : Who do people think that Tom is? What does it mean when Goldberry answers this question with a "He is"? How does Tom answer this question when it's put to him?

most likely a creation of eru's directly connected with arda... as opposed to the ainur, who were from outside... an 'ideal elf' of sorts... goldberry, more likely a maiar

i'll get back on some others...

[Valandil]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
People still had to make the right choice. Consider Treebeard. The hobbits' arrival in Fangorn, and "chance-meeting" with him, precipitates Saruman's overthrow. In retrospect, it's tempting to see this as essential to the outcome of the whole book. Without it, Aragorn wouldn't have got the Palantir and lured Sauron into emptying his lands.

Treebeard? Fangorn? Palantir? Who are THEY??? :confused: Say... you're not giving away the rest of the story, are ye? :eek:

And what's all this talk about Valar and Ainar? Who's he??? :p ;)

[Rían]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Songs and Poems:
I think this goes right back to the Music of Ainur. Those who have read the Silmarillion know that the world was created with music, and the the different themes from different Ainur wove together. Old Man Willow is introduced a great singer of songs. Later on in FOTR, we find out that the Elves sing to relive the past. Clearly, songs and poems have a literal power in Middle-Earth, and none can match Tom's. For this reason I suspect he's an Ainu. And I encourage any LOTR readers who haven't read the Sil to read it! :) Music is indeed very important in Tolkien's works.

BTW, I think Frodo's dream of Gandalf was "late in coming", not early. More significant is his vision of the Sea and his eventual voyage to Valinor. It's a very powerful spiritual dimension to the journey they are undertaking. Whoops, thanks for the correction! I fixed it :)

[Rían]

Originally posted by Beren3000
Who or what is Tom?:
I've heard and read a lot of speculation on that topic, but nothing is for certain. I personally maintain that he's one of the Valar because he's not affected by the Ring. But your questions brought up a new possibility. One of the names of God in the Old Testament (Jehovah I think) is roughly translated into "the one who is". So could this possibly mean that Bombadil is Illuvatar himself? I think that this is too large a hypothesis to maintain. Of course this would answer the question of why the Ring does not affect him. Yes, when I read the "He is" quote, I thought about the "I am" name of God in the OT, too (and also used by Jesus in the NT - that's when the Jews wanted to stone him, because that meant he was claiming to be equal with God). But then, given other info about Tom that was given at the Council of Elrond, I pretty much ruled that out. Elrond says he was called "oldest and fatherless" by the elves, but Gandalf says he can't alter the Ring itself, or break its power over others, and that he is withdrawn into a little land within bounds that he has set - doesn't sound like Iluvatar! :) (To those who haven't read the Silmarillion - Iluvatar is the creator of all, and Valar and Maiar are angelic beings created before the earth.) (I hope the Sil references aren't too distracting, BTW - I hope they encourage people to read the Sil!)

About chance:
I personally think that this is one of the most important themes in the book. Throughout the book, we see many examples of this "chance" that just happens to suit the Fellowship's needs exactly. Also Gandalf calls his meeting with Thorin in The Prancing Pony a "chance meeting". The point is, these are too many coincidences to be just "chance". I think this owes to something like destiny; because the Fellowship's goals are good, Illuvatar and the Valar guide their way through apparently "chance" occurences. Here's a simple example: Boromir's lusting for the Ring. This event is not unusual in itself. But if not for that, Frodo would have gone on to Rohan and probably would never have found enough motivation to go to Mordor. Other examples of small events influencing the course of history like that are found all over the books. Yes, the chance theme is all over the book, and little hints by Gandalf that it's not "mere" chance ...

Why the hobbits need merry hearts:
Maybe because the barrow-wights can fog your thoughts and affect you by making some kind of sadness creep up on you. (This appears in Harry Potter with the dementors who suck all joy and happiness of the people around them; the cure: eating chocolate to get your spirits up). And maybe it was just because they really did need cheerful thoughts. After all, they've been buried alive and met with a ghost about a thousand years old, who could be cheerful after that? Interesting cross-ref to Harry Potter - I haven't read the books. I like that dementor cure, tho! :D

[Rían]

Originally posted by Last Child of Ungoliant
Question 4 : Who do people think that Tom is? What does it mean when Goldberry answers this question with a "He is"? How does Tom answer this question when it's put to him?
I feel that Tom is not a normal being as such, but more a being of the earth, a spirit if you will. re: The Council of Elrond; Galdor states that power is not in Tom to defy the Enemy, unless that power is in the earth itself Yes, that bit that Galdor says makes me think that he might NOT be one of the Valar, but rather a unique being specifically created for Middle Earth. After all, one would think Elrond would know if he's a Vala or not! And Galadriel had lived among the Valar - I'd like to hear HER opinion on it!

Well, Tom seems to be pretty unique - but really doesn't come into the story much at all after this (and I don't want to get TOO sidetracked to Sil issues, either, altho they naturally come up when discussing Tom). Maybe he's just one of those little references that Tolkien throws in to give more depth to the story.

Question 6 : Night and Day - why, as Tom said, are some things "ill to hear when the world's in shadow"? Who else said something like this, and when?
Gandalf said something of this nature in chapter 2 'The Shadow of the Past' Yes, that's what I was thinking of! :)

[Rían]

As far as the merry hearts - what it reminded me of was the bit in ROTK, I think, where the hobbits were saying that Gandalf laughs more than he talks now, or something like that. I think there is just something cheerful about true goodness. I like how altho Gandalf is really committed to his task, he's still free to laugh when appropriate. IOW, appropriate cheerfulness is actually good and right and one should strive to keep one's spirits up, like Tom said.

(or was the reference from Unfinished Tales? I don't remember ... does anyone else?)

[brownjenkins]

on TB and the Ring from letters (stretching the rules a bit):

"The story is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom against compulsion that has long lost any object save mere power, and so on; but both sides in some degree, conservative or destructive, want a measure of control. But if you have, as it were taken 'a vow of poverty', renounced control, and take delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the question of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless." (Letters, p. 178)

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Thanks, guys :)

Just a quick fix - I meant to ask were Tom and Goldberry vegetarians, not the Hobbits (who I know are NOT!) Kind of a what-types-of-foods-do-different-folks-eat question.

If you believe that Tom is an earth-spirit, he would surely have to be vegetarian, holding the greatest respect for all beings of the earth.

[Rían]

Yes, that's true - and he kinda reminded me of Beorn in The Hobbit, another guy whose menu seemed to be all vegetarian.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Question 7 : Dreams - here are several dreams listed - thoughts, anyone? And what about Frodo's dream, which Gandalf said was actually BEFORE that situation happened? What does that mean? EDIT - nevermind, I was wrong :o - it was AFTER! But it's still interesting that Frodo saw him so accurately!
I would like to have a good think, and come up with loads of intelligent things to say at this juncture, but as one of my points for my chapter concerns dreams, I am going to keep schtum!! ;)
Otherwise I wouldn't have anything to say later!! :)

and Question 8 : Chance - here we see "chance" mentioned again - a theme throughout Tolkien. What are people's thoughts on this?
I don't quite know about the chance of things, certainly hobbits would have seen it as chance, butthe valar, and possibly maiar, would not IMO see occurences as chance, as they should know that Eru had planned all things, and so it would have been the natural unfolding of fate, rather than chance.

Now, if any of that made any sense, please let me know!! :D

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Chapter 8 : Fog on the Barrow-Downs

Question 9 : The most interesting thing in this chapter, to me, was the wight - truly creepy! Now why is Frodo still awake in the barrow, while the others weren't? Was it just that he was the last one captured, or is it for some other reason?
Perhaps this is as he has the ring...?

Question 12 : Frodo's first big "temptation" - starting with "then a wild thought of escape came to him..." - how does he deal with this, and what are the details of how he's tempted and his thoughts? Did the success here help him in later temptations?
I think it was more fear than anything else that made Frodo think like this.

Question 13 : What is the significance, if any, of Merry's thinking he's another person?

Question 14 : We see a different side of Tom's personality, esp. when he finds the broach - thoughts?
It is his 'remembering' that reenforces the belief that Tom is a spirit of the Earth, having been in the area for a very long time.

Question 15 : And again the dream/vision theme - and why would Tom have the power to make visions appear to them, and who else can do this?
Gandalf can do this IMO.

Question 16 : Finally, they get the knives, which are extremely significant later on down the road - how are these knives special, and why, and when were they specially used further on in the book?
Them being Numenorean blades, made for the wars with Angmar, which is why they prove especially fatal to the Witch-King later on.

Question 17 : is it important for the hobbits to "keep up their merry hearts", as Tom admonished them?
IMO The hobbits must 'keep up their merry hearts' because the best defens against evil is goodwill.

Question 18 : why won't Tom leave his country?
Tom won't leave because he has a certain connection with the area of the Old Forest, and (earth-spirit though he is) too much had changed in the lands about, and tat evil was more prolific at that time.

[Olmer]

The GafferSongs and Poems:
I think this goes right back to the Music of Ainur. Clearly, songs and poems have a literal power in Middle-Earth, and none can match Tom's. For this reason I suspect he's an Ainu.
I like your idea, The Gaffer. Tom is an Ainu spirit, probably one who had been involved in creation of Flora & Fauna. In this case HE IS as he is, before everything else came to life, a creator and overseer.

Rhan... he ....rather a unique being specifically created for Middle Earth.
Totally agree.In mine view he represents a spirit of Earth as it is, being in total oblivion of war games created by earth inhabitants, but in the same his (Earth) happy existence terribly depends on
which side of opposition will prevail.
In this case I see Goldberry, the River daughter, as another Earth spirit important for coninuantiong of the life on it: the Earth nourished by water becomes fertile.
Old Man Willow and the wights - what similarities does anyone see? We're starting to get some descriptions of "evil" characters - what are some common denominators?
It shows to the Hobbits that, besides the Evil of Sauron,on their road there is a lot of other "evil" things, totally independent from the Lord of the Rings .

We see a different side of Tom's personality, esp. when he finds the broach - thoughts?
This is very interesting aspect! Whos broach was it? Melain? Luthien? Elwing?
Maybe somebody happened to stumble somewhere on a few words which is sheading the light on this mistery?

P.S. Very unorthodox revue,Rhan and very observing also.
You did the great work with a questionaire.
:cool:

[Elanor the Fair]

Question 12 : Frodo's first big "temptation" - starting with "then a wild thought of escape came to him..." - how does he deal with this, and what are the details of how he's tempted and his thoughts? Did the success here help him in later temptations?

In this passage you see Frodo as a true hero. He is frightened and can see the easy way out to save himself, however, he fights this temptation in a physical sense - resisting the urge to put on the ring and run away. It also illustrates the success of the Fellowship - they were bonded by friendship and loyalty. This loyalty provides Frodo with the determination he seeks.

Question 13 : What is the significance, if any, of Merry's thinking he's another person?

It's almost like the artefacts that were in the barrow carry the memory of their former owners. Merry is wearing a circlet - presumably he is remembering the events of past times as experienced by the owner.

Question 14 : We see a different side of Tom's personality, esp. when he finds the broach - thoughts?

Tom is also remembering the lady who once wore the brooch - perhaps the brooch itself is providing some of the memory?? It seems that Tom's domain was wider once and he came more into contact with the ancient people of Eriador. He shows a reflective and sorrowful side to his personality here.

Question 15 : And again the dream/vision theme - and why would Tom have the power to make visions appear to them, and who else can do this?

Perhaps, again, it is related to the knives that Tom has given them. Does Tom's presence unlock the memory in the ancient artefacts?? (Galadriel also has the power to make visions appear - but this is later in the book).

and Question 18 : And why won't Tom leave his country?

Is this one of the last pieces of primeval woodland in Middle-Earth? (Fangorn is the other). Tom is tied in some way to the ancient woodland.

[Nurvingiel]

Excellent write-up Rian! Even though you gave us homework! :p

Question 1 : The most interesting thing in this chapter, to me, was how the Ring had no power over Tom. What are people's thoughts on this?

I think this is a part of Tom's nature. I believe it is Gandalf who refers to him as the Eldest. This is probably all we'll really understand on the matter though, Tom is an enigma. I don't think even Tolkien himself fully understood the nature of Tom Bombadil. I think of him as the first living being to inhabit Middle-earth, since he must have come before the Elves as well. However, wouldn't he have been mentioned in "The Silmarillion" in this case? This leaves the possibility that he's actually an Ainu (or someone else from Valinor) as the Gaffer thought. I think this is definately a possibility, but if an Ainu left Valinor, wouldn't it have been mentioned in the Sil? Maybe he was kicked out (for the singing! j/k) and is never talked about. Nothing is conclusive.

Random theory (someone may have thought of this already, but I didn't have time to read every post, sorry):
What if Tom is Manwe and Goldberry is Yavanna?

Question 2 : So why the singing and rhyming?
*throws fresh tomatoes at Rian* I think this is showing an important theme in Middle-earth: no one is as they appear. A prime example is Strider. Strider appears dangerous like a bandit, when really he is far more dangerous than he appears, but only to his enemies. To his friends he is loyal until death. Tom Bombadil appears to be silly, but is really wise, thoughtful, and highly dangerous in his own way.

Question 3 : And why does Tom appear so ... well, silly?
I believe the singing and rhyming is intertwined with this.

Question 4 : Who do people think that Tom is? What does it mean when Goldberry answers this question with a "He is"? How does Tom answer this question when it's put to him?
See question 1. Goldberry is probably the same manner of being as Tom.

Question 8 : Chance - here we see "chance" mentioned again - a theme throughout Tolkien. What are people's thoughts on this?

I think it is as Gandalf hinted - that there are forces of good trying to "tip the balance" as well. I think it includes those that sent Gandalf, which is why he is seen as a meddler. He is also trying to influence outcomes. The lucky breaks that our heroes get (Gildor and the elves turning up at just the right moment, for example) are due at least in part to these influences.

Question 9 : The most interesting thing in this chapter, to me, was the wight - truly creepy! Now why is Frodo still awake in the barrow, while the others weren't? Was it just that he was the last one captured, or is it for some other reason? And here we get a glimpse of the courage of this hobbit, and a theme we'll see later on in many places from other courageous folk - "yes, it looks like I've bought the farm, but I'm going out fighting for what is right!!" (I esp. love how Tolkien portrays this theme with the archers of Morthond in ROTK, and the charge of the Rohirrim).

I think this part further outlines why Frodo was chosen as the Ringbearer. He has some hidden power (still awake) and bravery (going down fighting) that make him able to carry such a burden. There are other scenes that allude to Frodo's "hidden power", such as in the Dead Marshes, when it seemed to Sam that his master seemed to grow, and Gollum seemed to shrink. (I forget why now though, waugh!)

Question 10 : More singing and rhyming - compare and contrast

If Tom is being serious, this outlines how dire the situation is.

Question 13 : What is the significance, if any, of Merry's thinking he's another person?

I think this hints at Merry's later connection with the knife - using it as the original bearer would have wished, to kill the Nazgul Captain. This is a hint at future events, which, in typical Tolkien style, we don't realize was a hint until several hours of contemplating the entire book.

Question 15 : And again the dream/vision theme - and why would Tom have the power to make visions appear to them, and who else can do this?

As the Eldest (whatever that entails) he would have this power. Galadriel, Sauron, the Nazgul, and the Ring are others who give people visions in the book, for good or ill.

Question 16 : Finally, they get the knives, which are extremely significant later on down the road - how are these knives special, and why, and when were they specially used further on in the book?

Chance brought them to the knives, and it only makes sense that they would use such fine blades as their swords.

[Beren3000]

Fine speculation there, Nurvingiel. But I have to disagree with one point. Tom could not be Manwe. It was mentioned somewhere in UT that Manwe would never come to Middle-Earth himself until Dagor Dagorath (the Last Battle)...so there!

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally posted by Beren3000
Fine speculation there, Nurvingiel. But I have to disagree with one point. Tom could not be Manwe. It was mentioned somewhere in UT that Manwe would never come to Middle-Earth himself until Dagor Dagorath (the Last Battle)...so there!

aybe ot manwe then, how about another vala?

of course, IMO, he is an earth spirit, so all this is idle speculation :p

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Question 13 : What is the significance, if any, of Merry's thinking he's another person?

I think this hints at Merry's later connection with the knife - using it as the original bearer would have wished, to kill the Nazgul Captain. This is a hint at future events, which, in typical Tolkien style, we don't realize was a hint until several hours of contemplating the entire book.




I never thought about it that way, but it makes sense now that i do think about it.

[cee2lee2]

I, also, initially thought of the Old Testament "He is" in connection with Tom, but as many have already pointed out, Tom isn't the creator here.
To me he's more like an earth shepherd, as the ents were tree shepherds, caring for one of the last primeval spots in middle earth. But I like the way some of you have talked of him as earth spirit and I'm tending now to agree more with that understanding.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by Beren3000
Fine speculation there, Nurvingiel. But I have to disagree with one point. Tom could not be Manwe. It was mentioned somewhere in UT that Manwe would never come to Middle-Earth himself until Dagor Dagorath (the Last Battle)...so there!
D'oh! :p

Aaah... the enigma of Tom Bombadil. ;)

Good points on my points guys! :) Complimentary tea at the cafe for all!

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Whether you find the Encyclopaedia of Arda
helpful or not, I have found a good essay
on Tom Bombadil and the nature of who
or what he is.

Encyclopaedia of Arda - RE: The Riddle of Tom Bombadil (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/t/tombombadil.html#riddle)

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Question 11 : Old Man Willow and the wights - what similarities does anyone see? We're starting to get some descriptions of "evil" characters - what are some common denominators? (hint - look at the beginning of the wight's song, before the incantation, and compare with Tom's description of Old Man Willow.) And feel free to talk about Smaug, too, for those who have read The Hobbit!

Question 12 : Frodo's first big "temptation" - starting with "then a wild thought of escape came to him..." - how does he deal with this, and what are the details of how he's tempted and his thoughts? Did the success here help him in later temptations?

Question 13 : What is the significance, if any, of Merry's thinking he's another person?


First, I'd like to think about what's different about them. The barrow-wight is a perversion of the Dunedain's grave. Merry's recollection of a dream concerning the North Kingdom implies that there remains a strong resonance of the original occupant or builders. When Tom destroys the wight, his poems imply that the wights are tied to their barrow and have to lie in wait to ensnare unwary travellers.

The fact that the wight has such important weapons in its hoard suggests to me that it lacks an active intelligence.

Old Man Willow seems to have a more active and conscious malice, and Tom certainly credits him with some considerable power.


(BTW

here's a link (http://www.talkaboutabook.com/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/messages/263073.html) to a post on another board asking the question "What if Old Man Willow had got the Ring?")

But the similarities would include their predilection for ensnaring people generally.

[Valandil]

BTW - I suggest we transfer the discussion on Tom Bombadil's nature to another thread, since it goes well beyond the scope of this story. There's one just down the page which has already been bumped recently. I'll post some thoughts there soon.

Just catching up on the reading and this morning covered the part from the hobbits' departure from TB's home up to their capture by the wight. Some questions / thoughts on just what happened there:

Frodo is leading the way - after their ill-timed nap - and passes between two upright stones. It's interesting that he doesn't recognize them, because the description sounds similar to the passage between two boulders that they had been making for. So... DID they reach that point? Or were they somewhere else? We can get the impression too that they drifted eastward unintentionally - so this particular landmark could have been screened from earlier view by a hill. However - did passing through it take them beyond the reach of the wights? Or did it place them in greater peril? When Frodo went through - he passed from mist into darkness (but it WAS night!)... and the others seem to have been detoured or something and were apparently captured first (note that Frodo was the only one to pass through). Frodo lost his pony and was climbing a hill toward the cries for help he had heard. (EDIT: Just looked ahead and verified that they are indeed not the same stones... but still interesting that Frodo passed thru - and the other three hobbits were then taken first - Frodo was only taken after going off to find them)

I always thought the reason Frodo was not laid out inside the barrow just like the other three is that he had been captured later... so the others had been in longer to have preparations made over them. If he HAD been captured earlier, the wight(s?) may well have gotten The Ring. But is a wight already a waith... uh, I mean - wraith - anyway?

Interesting to me also are Merry's words upon waking. I don't know that he would have known of Carn Dum (the capital city of Angmar - an evil kingdom which over-ran the former kingdom in these barrows about 1600 years earlier). But he says; "What in the name of wonder? Of course, I remember! The men of Carn Dum came on us at night and we were worsted. Ah! The spear in my heart! No! No! What am I saying? I have been dreaming. Where did you get to, Frodo?"

This to me backs up the notions that the final thoughts of the man buried there were somehow being transmitted to Merry. And I gather that it was the remnants of this poor fellow's body which had been taken over by the wight... which was a spirit.

From the appendices, we learn that the kingdom of Cardolan (then again subject to Arthedain) was over-run by forces from Angmar in 1409 - that the last prince of Cardolan died then - and that many think his tomb is where the Ringbearer was held captive. We also learn that in 1636, the Great Plague came to these regions, and after this, the Dunedain of Cardolan were no more. It was after that plague that the evil spirits came from Angmar and Rhudaur to occupy the tombs in the barrows. (EDIT: the dike beyond the gap which was the northern border of an ancient kingdom almost had to be the northern boundary of Cardolan)

[Valandil]

Oh - and the Broach... I suspect it just belonged to some un-named beatiful princess, queen or other young lady of old Cardolan. They exist in all lands, at all times... and Tom seems to keep himself up-to-date on what goes on in lands around him. I suspect he would have always known who the principal figures were in Arnor, Arthedain and Cardolan (maybe even Rhudaur as well), would have caught sight of a good many of them (if perhaps unbeknownst to them) and would have met with some, from time-to-time - even befriending a few, as he did Farmer Maggot.

I imagine he had seen her beauty... and that perhaps she had even come to an untimely end when Cardolan was over-run. That to me would more than account for the wistfulness he displays over her memory.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Excellent write-up Rian! Even though you gave us homework! :p Thanks! *gets out her grading pen* ;) :D


Maybe he was kicked out (for the singing! j/k) and is never talked about. ROTFL!!!!!! :D

The "embarassing relative" of the Ainur?! :D

[Rían]

Originally posted by Valandil
Oh - and the Broach... I suspect it just belonged to some un-named beatiful princess, queen or other young lady of old Cardolan. They exist in all lands, at all times... and Tom seems to keep himself up-to-date on what goes on in lands around him. ... I imagine he had seen her beauty... and that perhaps she had even come to an untimely end when Cardolan was over-run. That to me would more than account for the wistfulness he displays over her memory. Yes, that's what I think, too.

[Rían]

Originally posted by cee2lee2
I, also, initially thought of the Old Testament "He is" in connection with Tom, but as many have already pointed out, Tom isn't the creator here.
To me he's more like an earth shepherd, as the ents were tree shepherds, caring for one of the last primeval spots in middle earth. But I like the way some of you have talked of him as earth spirit and I'm tending now to agree more with that understanding. Once I read the Sil, I always thought of Tom as one of the Ainur (angelic beings for those who are soon to read the Sil :D - nudge, nudge :D ) But yet he seems rather unique ... so now I'm leaning towards kind of an earth spirit thing along the lines of the Oyarsa in C. S. Lewis' space trilogy - a single, unique angelic being specifically assigned to a certain planet. There's other angels around, but only one assigned to this unique position per planet.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Olmer
It shows to the Hobbits that, besides the Evil of Sauron,on their road there is a lot of other "evil" things, totally independent from the Lord of the Rings . That wasn't what I meant, but that's a very good point! Glad you brought it up.

P.S. Very unorthodox revue,Rhan and very observing also.
You did the great work with a questionaire.
:cool: thanks :)

[cee2lee2]

Rian, the reference to the Oyarsa was very helpful. I can see Tom in that status.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Elanor the Fair
In this passage you see Frodo as a true hero. He is frightened and can see the easy way out to save himself, however, he fights this temptation in a physical sense - resisting the urge to put on the ring and run away. It also illustrates the success of the Fellowship - they were bonded by friendship and loyalty. This loyalty provides Frodo with the determination he seeks. Exactly - your "easy way out" description is SO true, and also part of most of OUR temptations in RL! I love how it describes it - a picture in his mind of himself safe, and those he values understanding his chocie ... "He thought of himself running free over the grass, grieving for Merry, and Sam, and Pippin, but free and alive himself. Gandalf would admit that there had been nothing else he could do." Such a tempting picture - and of course, it might not even be true ... Yet he overcomes the temptation with courage and love, and does what his hearts tells him is the right thing.

PS - welcome to Entmoot :) Nice to have you in the discussion :)

[Rían]

Originally posted by cee2lee2
Rian, the reference to the Oyarsa was very helpful. I can see Tom in that status. Yes, I just thought of that t'other day when the "earth spirit" thing came up - I'm glad you've read those book and know what I mean :) who else here has read those books?

(of course, I could be dead wrong - but it's fun to try to fit him in somewhere.)

[Rían]

Originally posted by Valandil
BTW - I suggest we transfer the discussion on Tom Bombadil's nature to another thread, since it goes well beyond the scope of this story. There's one just down the page which has already been bumped recently. I'll post some thoughts there soon. yeah, you're right - the non-LOTR refs are kind of taking over - I'll scale back.

Interesting to me also are Merry's words upon waking. I don't know that he would have known of Carn Dum (the capital city of Angmar - an evil kingdom which over-ran the former kingdom in these barrows about 1600 years earlier). But he says; "What in the name of wonder? Of course, I remember! The men of Carn Dum came on us at night and we were worsted. Ah! The spear in my heart! No! No! What am I saying? I have been dreaming. Where did you get to, Frodo?"

This to me backs up the notions that the final thoughts of the man buried there were somehow being transmitted to Merry. And I gather that it was the remnants of this poor fellow's body which had been taken over by the wight... which was a spirit.
I agree - I don't think Merry would have known of Carn Dum at all. I think part of the wight's evilness was "consuming" or "taking over" its victims, and this was the last thought of the man it "got" - and if it had got Merry, then its next victim would be thinking "isn't it time for elevenses?" :D

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I agree - I don't think Merry would have known of Carn Dum at all. I think part of the wight's evilness was "consuming" or "taking over" its victims, and this was the last thought of the man it "got" - and if it had got Merry, then its next victim would be thinking "isn't it time for elevenses?" :D [/B]

or "hmm ... mushrooms for second-breakfast" :p

[Rían]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
As the Eldest (whatever that entails) he would have this power. Galadriel, Sauron, the Nazgul, and the Ring are others who give people visions in the book, for good or ill. I was thinking of somewhere (possibly - the Sil! :D) where it is written how the more skilled among the Elven singers could make visions of what they were singing about appear. But I like your list - I hadn't thought of some of those.

[Rían]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
The fact that the wight has such important weapons in its hoard suggests to me that it lacks an active intelligence. It reminds me of Smaug - how he had some common stuff, and some incredibly valuable stuff, and how (roughly) "he hardly knew a good bit of work from a bad, but had a general idea of the market value."

[Rían]

on the swords - I like the comment in ROTK about the sword that Merry had - from ROTK (bolding added)
So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.

"chance" operating again ... Merry just "happened" to get that blade ...

Also, Frodo struck at the Witch-king's feet and evidently hurt him (a "shrill cry" rang out) and that might have made the Witch King's blade go just a bit off - he was aiming for Frodo's heart, IIRC, and maybe didn't get it in as far as he intended. That's why Frodo was able to make it to Rivendell - perhaps it bought him a few days.

[Valandil]

Coupla things about TB that are within the realm of this story:

1. I found it interesting how he KNEW what the hobbits had dreamed about - yet chided them for it - which indicates to me that he didn't send those dreams to them. ALSO - how he knew when they had woken up at night - and how the things said to them before they went to bed came back to calm them when they woke up in the middle of the night (like a night wind or starlight coming in - as Goldberry had said those were the only things that could pass the windows of that house). Interesting presentience all around (if that's the right word).

2. I find it amusing what Tom says when he decides to ride out with the hobbits after rescuing them from the barrow. It's like they keep getting into so much trouble, that it'll be less effort for him to just see them safely off his land, than to continue rescuing them from every old willow or barrow wight! :p :D

[The Gaffer]

Tom's house is definitely another place. At the risk of repeating myself from the last discussion, that last line in Chapter 5, when they arrive at the house, is a really strong suggestion that they're out of the normal temporal world:And with that song the hobbits stood upon the threshold, and a golden light was about them
Etc etc. shut up Gaffer you old windbag

Oh, and who isGoldberry, then?

Is Tom just is, maybe Goldberry does? :D

[Rían]

I like how Tom and Goldberry are very different, yet compliment each other so well.

Val - yes, interesting how Tom knows their dreams, and told them in advance to not worry, and then chided them for worrying!

And your #2 point - yes, that's like me with cleaning up with the kids sometimes - I know I should train them, but sometimes it's just SO much easier to do it myself! and about 10 times faster!

[azalea]

[I just had to point out something: someone asked earlier if Tom could be Manwe and Goldberry Yavanna; however, Yavanna was AULE's wife! Unless there was some hanky panky going on!:D]

[Artanis]

Wonderful intro RÃ*an! :) Tried to answer some of your questions here, but I haven't read the posts in this thread, so I may repeat what others have said already.
Originally posted by RÃ*an
The most interesting thing in this chapter, to me, was how the Ring had no power over Tom. What are people's thoughts on this? .... Who do people think that Tom is? What does it mean when Goldberry answers this question with a "He is"? How does Tom answer this question when it's put to him?I've read many theories on who Tom is - and I think there have been flaws in them all, but the one I like most is that Tom is the spirit of the Earth itself, or perhaps I should say, the Earth as it was meant to be, before it was corrupted by Morgoth (bringing in Sil things here :D ). There is a connection between Goldberry's "He is", and Eru's "Ea - Let these things be". People have speculated that he might be one of the Ainur, but I don't think so. He is certainly not a Vala, and he is probably not a Maia, in that case the Ring would have power over him. Just look at Saruman, Sauron and Gandalf. And it is said that Tom is the Eldest, that he was present before any other spirit in the world. "He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside."
Dreams - here are several dreams listed - thoughts, anyone? And what about Frodo's dream, which Gandalf said was actually BEFORE that situation happened? What does that mean? EDIT - nevermind, I was wrong :o - it was AFTER! But it's still interesting that Frodo saw him so accurately!
.... Chance - here we see "chance" mentioned again - a theme throughout Tolkien. What are people's thoughts on this? I tend to see 'chance' and certain dreams as the means of a higher being to influence the course of history. Gandalf's meeting with Thorin, Bilbo finding the Ring, Tom turning up in the crucial moment. I think Frodo's dream about Gandalf on the tower of Orthanc would be an explanation offered to him on why Gandalf didn't turn up in the Shire as he was supposed to. I have wondered if Frodo was more receptive of this dream just then because he was in such a peaceful place as Tom's house.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Frodo's first big "temptation" - starting with "then a wild thought of escape came to him..." - how does he deal with this, and what are the details of how he's tempted and his thoughts? Did the success here help him in later temptations?This was a great moment in the book. Frodo could have escaped for himself, alone, and left the others behind. As he says to himself, with thoughts given to him by the Ring, I imagine, no one would have blamed him. But he had just found a new courage within himself, brought forth by the hopelessly dangerous situation he was caught in. And MUCH more important, he was NOT willing to abandon his friends. This is really a powerful description of the friendship between the Hobbits. Friendship was stronger than the temptation from the Ring.

More later ... :)

[Rían]

Originally posted by Artanis
... As he says to himself, with thoughts given to him by the Ring, I imagine, ... Great thought, Arty! I never thought of the Ring's influence with those pictures in his head and those thoughts ... I bet you're right!

[Rían]

I'm off for the weekend for a romatic (read: kid-less!) get-away with my husband (all praise to my parents for watching the kiddos, may the hair on their toes - er, heads never fall out!) :D I'll check in on the thread on Monday. I'd be esp. interested in hearing more on the shared characteristics of the various evil creatures we've seen so far, and perhaps more on the temptation theme we'll see more of later on (I'm assuming flash-aheads are OK here) - who is tempted, and how, and how they deal with it.

Ta-ta!

[Beren3000]

Ok, here's a comparison between Old man Willow and the Wight:

Both of them use some sort of spell to hypnotize the hobbits.
OMW's purpose seems to be physical, namely killing the hobbits. The Wight, on the other hand had a more "ethereal" purpose (if that's the right word), which is to posess the hobbit's souls or something similar.

A little bit off-point:
The Wight uses an incantation to entrance the hobbits: again we see the theme of the strength of the word in Arda; there words seem to have a physical existence of their own and can be used to various ends as is obvious in all of Tolkien's work.

An interesting similar feature that unites all of Tolkien's villains is their use of deception and/or temptation. This occured in the cases of OMW and the Wight and we'll see it later with "the voice of Saruman" and Sauron's deception of Denethor and his whisperings in the ears of the Numenoreans and the Elves of Eregion. This is characteristic of the concept of evil in Christianity (and perhaps many other religions): evil often comes down on you disguised and tries to play on your weaknesses or desires to achieve its end...

Hope that's enough :)

P.S. happy weekend, Rian

[The Gaffer]

I don't know that either of these characters offered any overt temptation. It was more like they trapped the unwary hobbits using their powers, which I agree, seem to be based around song. A bit like Leonard Cohen.

One difference is how Tom treats them: he seems to have respect for Old Man Willow (at least he respects his right to exist, and doesn't dig him up) whereas the wight is despatched post haste.

Tolkien offers lots of different conceptions of baddies. Smaug was a complex and intelligent character whose vanity was his downfall; Sauron is a cipher of unmitigated nastiness. Saruman, of course, has fallen from grace as a result of getting too absorbed in studying the arts of badness.

A bit lower down the pecking order, it seems that bad characters always wear black hats. The squinty-eyed southerner springs to mind here.

Yet, Sam says that he'd expect a servant of the enemy to "seem fair yet feel foul", at which Aragorn takes the hump.

Have a grand, well deserved, weekend, Rian.

[Elanor the Fair]

I'm going to attempt to post a link to a web site that has a file that I scanned. This shows part of a map that details the hobbits journey from Hobbiton. Well, here goes......

http://www.cyberinter.net/cyberpix/lotrmap2.html

[Elanor the Fair]

Well, that didn't work! :( :confused: I will have to try something else!!

[Elanor the Fair]

I'm going to try again. If the picture doesn't come up, then I have also provided the web link until I can solve the problem. Here I go again.....

http://members.westnet.com.au/theherberts/cyberpix/lotr/lotrmap.jpg

http://www.cyberinter.net/cyberpix/lotrmap.html

Thanks to Khamûl and Linaewen for their help in attempting to solve this problem.

[Elanor the Fair]

Well, the web link worked but the image link did not. :confused:

I really wanted the image to come in without having to click on a link, however, I will keep working on it.

The map is part of a series of maps that plots the journey of all the members of the Fellowship from Hobbiton to their journey's end. I wanted to scan and post the maps into the appropriate pages of the discussion project so we all have a visual image!!

The book is "The Atlas of Middle Earth" by Karen Wynn Fonstad, published in 1981. She is a cartographer whose interest in Tolkien inspired her to publish this book.

I hope you find the maps useful!

[Valandil]

Yay!!! Great job Elenor! Thank you very much! :)

[Elanor the Fair]

Thanks, Valandil, but I don't understand!!:confused: When I checked my post earlier today the picture was not there and now it is!! It's like magic!! :)

[Elanor the Fair]

Oh!! I just read my PM's and discovered it was not magic that made my image appear, but some clever manipulation by Khamul. :cool:

Thanks Khamul!! :)

[Linaewen]

Originally posted by Artanis

I've read many theories on who Tom is - and I think there have been flaws in them all, but the one I like most is that Tom is the spirit of the Earth itself, or perhaps I should say, the Earth as it was meant to be, before it was corrupted by Morgoth (bringing in Sil things here :D ). There is a connection between Goldberry's "He is", and Eru's "Ea - Let these things be". People have speculated that he might be one of the Ainur, but I don't think so. He is certainly not a Vala, and he is probably not a Maia, in that case the Ring would have power over him. Just look at Saruman, Sauron and Gandalf. And it is said that Tom is the Eldest, that he was present before any other spirit in the world. "He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside."

Most people have said that they think Tom is some sort of earth spirit, which I agree with. It's interesting that you say the earth spirit, Arty, because I find it hard to imagine the spirit of all of Arda encompassed in one being (i.e. Tom).
So then, can't other 'earth spirits' exist, or is Tom the most significant since he is Eldest?

And good job, Elanor and thanks Khamul. :)

[Linaewen]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Question 2 : So why the singing and rhyming?

I would say to show how unaffected he can be to everything else that's going on in the world, like how the Ring has no power over him. Maybe it shows how above and beyond the current events Tom is- in the grand scheme of things in the history of Me (past and future), the conflict over the Ring is minor.

I also like to think that Tolkien put it in to add some 'lighter moments' to the book's contents. One of the reasons I enjoy LotR so much is that despite the element of grimness and misery that permeates much of the book, there are still a number of moments of joy and light-heartedness.

[Artanis]

Elanor, lovely maps! :)
Originally posted by Linaewen
It's interesting that you say the earth spirit, Arty, because I find it hard to imagine the spirit of all of Arda encompassed in one being (i.e. Tom).
So then, can't other 'earth spirits' exist, or is Tom the most significant since he is Eldest?I would argue that Tom is not significant because he is the Eldest, but because he is a symbol of Arda unmarred. Which would also perhaps serve to explain why he will not leave his little realm - he has no place in the world outside which is touched by evil.

Actually, I'm posting this against my own councel, for though I too have my theories about who Tom is, I do think he serves the story and the atmosphere in the book best if he is left as an enigma. :)

[Rían]

I'm baaaaack :D - thanks for the nice weekend wishes, it was fabulous! (see happy thread)

Wow, some great thoughts while I was gone -

by Beren3000
An interesting similar feature that unites all of Tolkien's villains is their use of deception and/or temptation. This occured in the cases of OMW and the Wight and we'll see it later with "the voice of Saruman" and Sauron's deception of Denethor and his whisperings in the ears of the Numenoreans and the Elves of Eregion. This is characteristic of the concept of evil in Christianity (and perhaps many other religions): evil often comes down on you disguised and tries to play on your weaknesses or desires to achieve its end... Yes, that's kinda the idea I was trying to get at with my question - I just finished the temptation section of Milton's Paradise Lost last night - I'll have to quote some excerpts, there's some GREAT examples of this, esp. the whole idea of deception to further the evil one's ends (like the voices Frodo hears in the fog, and the suggestions of sleepiness, etc.)

by the Gaf
One difference is how Tom treats them: he seems to have respect for Old Man Willow (at least he respects his right to exist, and doesn't dig him up) whereas the wight is despatched post haste. Now that's interesting; I never thought of that difference before. I wonder why that is? Is it because of the whole redemption thing that Val brought up in that other thread? OMW is alive still; wights are NOT (at least I always thought of them as dead thingys) and so can't be redeemed? Or does Tom think like Gandalf about dealing out death, and again, the wights are already "dead" but just hanging around still, like company staying too late :D so Tom shows them the door? Great point, Gaf!

Tolkien offers lots of different conceptions of baddies. Smaug was a complex and intelligent character whose vanity was his downfall; Sauron is a cipher of unmitigated nastiness. Saruman, of course, has fallen from grace as a result of getting too absorbed in studying the arts of badness. I think pride is also a very important (and shared) characteristic of these baddies. I don't think that in Saruman's case, it was simply from studying the "arts of badness" (great term!). He studied them, in the first place, BECAUSE of his pride and selfish desire to rule. I like the little bit in Unfinished Tales, IIRC, where it talks about Saruman liking pipeweed but being too proud to show it because Gandalf discovered it first.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Linaewen
I also like to think that Tolkien put it in to add some 'lighter moments' to the book's contents. One of the reasons I enjoy LotR so much is that despite the element of grimness and misery that permeates much of the book, there are still a number of moments of joy and light-heartedness. I agree, and I think that is part of the brilliance of the book! It makes the grim parts much grimmer, too, to have seen the joy that might be destroyed.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Artanis
[B]I would argue that Tom is not significant because he is the Eldest, but because he is a symbol of Arda unmarred. Which would also perhaps serve to explain why he will not leave his little realm - he has no place in the world outside which is touched by evil. Interesting thought, Arty! I've never thought of that before - and I've wondered why Tom stayed within his bounds.

Actually, I'm posting this against my own councel, for though I too have my theories about who Tom is, I do think he serves the story and the atmosphere in the book best if he is left as an enigma. :) I agree, but it's fun to float theories :)

[Elanor the Fair]

Originally posted by Linaewen

And good job, Elanor and thanks Khamul. :) [/B]

Thank you, Linaewen. :D

Originally posted by Artanis

Elanor, lovely maps! [/B]

Thank you, Artanis. :D

[Beren3000]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I agree, and I think that is part of the brilliance of the book! It makes the grim parts much grimmer, too, to have seen the joy that might be destroyed.

Agreed! I always thought that this was one of the literary purposes of the Fellowship of the Ring books (aside from the obvious one of introducing the characters): namely, to describe the joy and carefree satus of the Shire so that the misery of Frodo in the later books can be fully appreciated.

EDIT: I'm glad you're enjoying Paradise Lost, RÃ*an. Isn't it just the greatest book ever? (Even though that's off topic, but what's your favorite moment in the book so far?)

[Rían]

Originally posted by Beren3000
EDIT: I'm glad you're enjoying Paradise Lost, RÃ*an. Isn't it just the greatest book ever? (Even though that's off topic, but what's your favorite moment in the book so far?) (wow - favorite moment in PL? I don't know what to say - I've underlined so much. The language is so powerful! Right now, I'm in the "it's not MY fault" section where Adam tries to pass the buck - written 400 years ago and relevant today! I think there's a thread on PL - I'll try to find it.)

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Beren3000
EDIT: I'm glad you're enjoying Paradise Lost, RÃ*an. Isn't it just the greatest book ever? (Even though that's off topic, but what's your favorite moment in the book so far?)

enjoyed it too!

one of my favorite quotes:

"the mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heav'n of hell, a hell of heav'n."

[Beren3000]

Your quote comes from my favourite part in the book, brownjenkins! It's that part where Satan envies the humans for Paradise and regrets his Fall. I LOVE that part!
P.S. Sorry, this will be the last drifting off the topic on my part :o

[Rían]

I have that part underlined, brownie! Great stuff.

Speaking of the regret aspect, how 'bout this bit when Satan is about to address the waiting "fellows of his crime" :

from Milton's "Paradise Lost", book I
Thrice he assayed, and thrice, in spite of scorn,
Tears, such as Angels weep, burst forth. At last
Words interwove with sighs found out their way:
That bit, quoted in another book, is what made me buy PL, and I'm so glad I did.

Anyway, to swing it back to LOTR, that deception is certainly seen in OMW and the wighties. Also, as is seen in Paradise Lost, the anger at humans, and insatiable desire (Tom talks about how the thoughts of the trees are often "filled with a hatred of things that go free upon the earth" and how OMW has a "gray thirsty spirit", and in the song of the wights, "the cold was cursing the warmth for which it hungered." That's another of the "characteristics in common" that I see in the baddies of LOTR.

[Nurvingiel]

[I just had to point out something: someone asked earlier if Tom could be Manwe and Goldberry Yavanna; however, Yavanna was AULE's wife! Unless there was some hanky panky going on!:D]
Oops... :o erm... *runs away* Bring in the real Sil experts! Turns out my theory wouldn't have worked anyway.

But maybe Tom is Ayule and Goldberry is Yavanna... *runs away again* :D :evil:

[Elanor the Fair]

One of the reasons I enjoy LotR so much is that despite the element of grimness and misery that permeates much of the book, there are still a number of moments of joy and light-heartedness.

I couldn't agree more, Linaewen. That is exactly why I love the LOTR so much.

[Earniel]

My appreciation of Tom Bombadil and his fair lady Goldberry is quite recent. (perhaps because it didn't feature in the movie) I remember I didn't like the part in Tom Bombadil's house much in the beginning and did skip it once or twice when rereading LoTR. Now I quite enjoy it, perhaps because I can picture them now better.

Question 1 : The most interesting thing in this chapter, to me, was how the Ring had no power over Tom. What are people's thoughts on this?
Tom didn't put the Ring on as one would expect, he puts it round the end of his little finger. This is probably not significant but is he actually wearing the Ring? The Hobbits seem to think he is because they're all suprised to still see Tom but I'm not so sure. By putting it round the end of his little finger it seems to me that Tom doesn't play by the rules the Ring has laid out and is therefore not subject to the consequenses wearing the Ring normally would have.

Question 5 : An important hobbit subject - FOOD! Are Tom and Goldberry vegetarians?
Frankly I can't see Tom going out with bow and arrow to hunt or set up traps to snare coneys. Somehow I can see him fishing in the Withwindle.

About the dreams, it's quite interesting that Sam apparantly didn't dream and woke that first night. Would that be of significance? I quite like that sentence in the book: "As far as he could remember, Sam slept through the night in deep content, if logs are contented." To me it's one of these 'the Hobbit'-like glimpses that get rarer and rarer as the book progresses and that show that Tolkien was in the beginning writing a sequal to the Hobbit in the same style.

In the chapter 'Fog on the Barrowdowns' there's something that puzzles me. When they try to leave the Barrowdowns in the first evening Frodo comes to two huge standing stones, like a gate. Only he sees them because he has lost the others by then. But when Tom leads them off his land the next morning Frodo sees no sign of the two stony pillars he saw the night before. It makes me wonder what those stones were or to what they formed a gate.

What if Tom is Manwe and Goldberry is Yavanna?
Then I imagine that Varda and Aulë will be very cross. :p

[Elanor the Fair]

When speculating about the origins of Tom Bombadil and Goldberry I think this part of the book is most significant....

"fair Lady Goldberry!" said Frodo at last, feeling his heart moved with a joy that he did not understand. He stood as he had at times stood enchanted by fair elven-voices; but the spell that was now laid upon him was different: less keen and lofty was the delight, but deeper and nearer to mortal heart; marvelous and yet not strange.

This suggests a "less lofty" origin for Goldberry - less lofty than elves so surely less lofty than a Vala or a Maia.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Question 1 : The most interesting thing in this chapter, to me, was how the Ring had no power over Tom. What are people's thoughts on this?



People are quick to assume I think. People often forget that there are many factors to Sauron, The Ring, and Tom Bombadil. First Sauron and Tom, they both seem to have great powers, who has more... no one will ever know? Especially considering Bombadil has powers that most would not call power. Yet Tom is master, and strong he is. The Ring, it has a power of its own in striving to get to Sauron. The ring also has some misunderstood properties. The invisibility property is the main misunderstanding in that the ring does not always have more power than its bearer! Sauron wore it without loosing his visability because he had the power to bend it to his will. Bombadil I think did the same. If Tom wished to be invisible he could be. As for him seeing Frodo while he put the ring on thats not great thing, any elf could see Frodo with the ring on as well.(as is my understanding) A Maia or a Vala could no doubt see into the "Shadow World" as well. Whatever Tom is he has more power than he shows. Why Tom did not desire the ring as any other on ME would is a mystery to everyone and always will be.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I don't think that the elves could see into the shadow world.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

But they could because it wasnt so much a shadow world, it was... an otherworld and the spirits of the imortal elves were in that side of existance. If an elf is killed in arda his spirit(shadow world form0 goes to the halls of mandos. I am pretty sure the elves could see, they could see frodo as he was becoming more wraithlike, and if he put on the ring perhaps.

[Fat middle]

I don't think that the elves could see into the shadow world.
I don't think that any elf could see into the shadow world (the Wood Elves could not see Bilbo when he wore the ring ;) ), but some of the, those who had lived in the Blessed Realm, probably can. Remember what Gandalf tells Frodo in "Many meetings" about Glorfindel.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

He only said that he was visible because he was of the Firstborn not that he could see him.

[Artanis]

Gandalf actually said that "those [of the Elves] who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm, live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power." It is reasonable to believe that if you are present in the shadow world, then also everything and everyone else in that world is visible to you.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

So in a way they were half wraiths of good?

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

well back to my point, if even some of the higher elves can see frodo in the "shadow realm" than someone higher like a maia or vala could no dount see him!? As Tom Bombadill had to be something higher than even elf if he is telling the truth about being fatherless.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Unless he is one of the elves that was first awoken by Eru.

[The Wizard from Milan]

Who is Tom
I think that Tom is Arda as it was created by Eru in the beginning. The more men/elves/dwarves/hobbits modify Arda, the less Tom considers it its reign. Given that Arda is a thing, not a being, he/it is not affected by the ring

My question 1
One day is spent in the house of Tom (while it was raining). Does this have any special meaning?

My question 2
Both Tom and Goldberry know of the perils of the Barrow Downs and still they send the hobitts on on their own. Why is that? It is true that Tom gives them a ryme to call him but he should have known that they were unlikely to have the presence of mind to use such a ryme

[Valandil]

*DING*

Just had a thought.

Late in Chapter 8, when Bombadil gives the knives to the Hobbits and tells them about the Men of Westernesse - and the sons of forgotten kings who still go wandering about, they suddenly see a vision:


"The hobbits did not understand his words, but as he spoke they had a vision as a great expanse of the years behind them, like a vast shadowy plain over which there strode shapes of Men, tall and grim with bright swords, and last came one with a star on his brow."

What were they seeing, and who was that last one? My first thought (knowing what I know now) was that it was the line of kings, in reverse - and they saw Elendil at the last. Another thought was that it was the forces of Arthedain, going off to fight Angmar's forces - but with the king bringing up the rear, rather than leading, which would be odd.

But it just occured to me that Tom perhaps gave them a vision of Aragorn. What do you guys think??

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

*DING*

Just had a thought.

Late in Chapter 8, when Bombadil gives the knives to the Hobbits and tells them about the Men of Westernesse - and the sons of forgotten kings who still go wandering about, they suddenly see a vision:



What were they seeing, and who was that last one? My first thought (knowing what I know now) was that it was the line of kings, in reverse - and they saw Elendil at the last. Another thought was that it was the forces of Arthedain, going off to fight Angmar's forces - but with the king bringing up the rear, rather than leading, which would be odd.

But it just occured to me that Tom perhaps gave them a vision of Aragorn. What do you guys think??
i think it is aragorn, with the grey company, protecting the boundaries of the shire, but meh! what do i know :p

[Serenoli]

Who is Tom
I think that Tom is Arda as it was created by Eru in the beginning. The more men/elves/dwarves/hobbits modify Arda, the less Tom considers it its reign. Given that Arda is a thing, not a being, he/it is not affected by the ring

My question 1
One day is spent in the house of Tom (while it was raining). Does this have any special meaning?

My question 2
Both Tom and Goldberry know of the perils of the Barrow Downs and still they send the hobitts on on their own. Why is that? It is true that Tom gives them a ryme to call him but he should have known that they were unlikely to have the presence of mind to use such a ryme
It was chance that brought them to the Barrow downs. They were initially planning to bypass it from the north, but their ill-timed nap, and the unexpected fog caused then to lose direction and unwittingly wander into the Barrow downs. So Tom and Goldberry were not really expecting them to encounter the wights- the rhyme was given as a 'just-in-case'

[Coffeehouse]

Things have changed drastically in the last 24 hours for our hobbits. Fatty Bolger saw them off into the Old Forest with a prophetic : "I only hope you will not need rescuing before the day is out" - and of course, they DID need rescuing, and Tom's the one that rescued them.

BUMP!! :) :)

These threads are great! Lol this is now officially my favorite thread on the Moot (along with the discussion of Chapters 5 and 6) I always thought the trip from Bag End to the Brandywine river, and then the start of their voyage 'for real' into the depths of the Old Forest was the best read of the entire Lord of the Rings:cool:

Tolkien at his best. I like the description of the early morning mist when the four hobbits set off into the Old Forest, with distant sounds and an air of suspense in the hours before sunrise:)

Will definitely add some thoughts later here!