Epilogue 2: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

[Wayfarer]

…In which these tales come to their end. :(

Okay. So...


The second wrapping-up chapter starts out by telling us of the fate of Sauron the Maia, Lieutenant of Morgoth. After his Master is defeated and cast out into the Void, Sauron surrenders and says he’s sorry. Eonwe, who seems to be in charge of the Valar’s Army, says he’ll have to come back and work out a deal with Manwe. Sauron instead runs and hides until they’ve all left, and then falls back into his old habits.

Beleriand having been destroyed, the elves and men that lived there go about moving elsewhere. Numenor is founded, as are Lindon and Mithlond, Hollin, and Lothlorien. Otherwise Middle Earth is ‘savage and desolate’, and everybody seems content to leave it that way for now.

Except for Sauron. The old fellow wastes no time getting to work, since he’s getting arrogant in the absence of the Valar. He corrupts lots of men, and does his best with the elves (even though he hates the Eldar), managing to pass himself off as a friend (under the name ‘Annatar’ - Lord of Gifts) and convinces them to help him ‘make Middle-Earth fair‘. Elrond and Gil-Galad sense something’s up, but the rest of them, especially the Noldor in Eregion (Lindon) agree to do so.

Sauron lives up to the name he’s given himself, and teaches the Noldor all sorts of neat stuff - Either that they’d never learned, or that had died with the elder generations in Beleriand. Their skill increases manyfold, surpassing everything they’ve done before. Guided subtly by Sauron, they conceive and begin work on the Rings of Power. Saurons’s desire in this is to gain power over the elves, so while they make their rings he forges… One Ring to Rule them All! dum-dum-DUMM

This Ring is the capstone, so to speak, of the entire project. All the other rings will work only as long as this one is, and they are subject wholly to it. In order to control their power (which was great), Sauron invests much of his own power and strength and will into the One Ring, making it ‘a thing of surpassing potency’. But, as soon as he puts it on, the Elves become aware of his plans, and take off their rings.

Since Sauron’s whole plan seems to be failing, he comes to the Elves in open force, and demands that they give him the rings, since he helped make them. He does manage to take back the rings, except for the last Three, which are the most powerful and ward off the decays of time. The Three are given ‘into the hands of the wise’, who conceal them.

Of the rings which he manages to take back, he gives Seven to the Dwarves, and Nine to Men, figuring if he can’t ensnare the Elves at least he’ll get some use out of the rings. Unfortunately for him, Aule made the Dwarves all but immune to that sort of control or influence, but men prove yet again easy to manipulate. The Nine who take these rings are utterly consumed, and become Wraiths, Sauron’s most terrible servants.

Sauron himself is feeling pretty good about this whole business, and in his pride decides he’s going to be the ruler of all middle earth. Even though he’s still able to manipulate and deceive, he decides force and fear are more his style, and those are what he uses.

Yeah. Anyway. The Numenoreans come and scare off all his thugs. So he falls back on deception, the results of which we should all be familiar with (Go Here for a refresher if you’re not). When Numenor goes under, Elendil and his family escape with the White Tree, and the Palantir, and some other neat stuff. They found kingoms in Middle-Earth; Arnor and Gondor. But Sauron also survives (he merely loses his pretty face) and doesn't waste much time making war on them.

Elrond and Gil-Galad come to the Dunedain's aid, as do Durin's Folk. The combined force assaults Mordor and eventually wins the way to Barad Dur itself. Sauron comes out and kills Elendil and Gil-Galad, but is himself felled Isildur cuts of The Ring with what's left of Narsil.

So, Sauron's routed, Isildur takes the Ring and is killed, the Ring is lost. Narsil goes to Isildur's son, but the Dunedain of the North are diminished, and there are to few of them left after the war to keep all the kingdom. Eventually the North-Kingdom splits into three realms which slowly dwindle away, until the only remnant is a strange people living in the wild.

Gondor endures, and for a while it's almosta s good as Numenor was, but it too begins to wane. Anarion's line fails, his last descendants killed by a plague, and Mordor is left unguarded again. Sauron's minions return there, and after a period of waiting attack and take Minas Ithil, which becomes Minas Morgul, and Osgiliath is left in ruin, while Minas Anor becomes Minas Tirith. Earnur, the last king, rides off to single combat with the Lord of the Nagul, and doesn't come back. The stewards take over the duties of the kingship.

Two of the Elven ringbearers - Elrond and Galadrial, use their powers to establish domains for themselvs, Imladris and Lothlorien, where their people can live free from evil things.

Sauron finally reappears, in Greenwood, which becoems Mirkwood, and he dwells in Dol-Guldur. At this time the Wizards first appear as well, hving come over the sea. Thre are five of them. The three that are named are Gandalf, Saruman, and Radagast. Of these, Gandalf isthe most vigilant, and he discovers Sauron in Mirkwood, and tries to convince the others to act, but Saruman, who has become a traitor at heart, prevents it. When they finally do make a move, it is to late, and Sauron escapes to Mordor.

The one ring had already been found, but now it surfaces, and Gandalf learns of it. This precipitates the War of the Ring... insert recap here.

It's finally revealed that Gandalf had the Nenya, one of the Three., which Cirdan gave to him.

Then everybody ships out to Valinor. Happily ever after. The End.

[Wayfarer]

Sauron put on his fair hue again and did obeisance to Eonwe...and abjured all his eil deeds. And some hold that this was not at first falsely done, but that sauron in truth repented, if only out of fear, being dismayed by the fall of Morgoth and the great wrath of the lords of the west.

Thoughts? Was Sauron really sorry?

and he fell back into evil, for the bonds that Morgoth had laid upon him were very strong.

I wonder what that means? What bonds?

Seeing the desolation of the world, Sauron said in his heart that the Valar, having overthrown Morgoth, had again forgotten Middle-earth.

And of course, the perennial question - was he right?

Can it be that they do not desire to see other lands become as blissful as their own? But wherefore should middle earth remain forever desolate and dark, whereas the Elves could make it as fair as Eressea, nay even as Valinor? And since you have not returend thither, as you might, I percieve that you love thies Middle-earth, as do I. Is it not then our task to labor together for it's enrichment...?

Okay...

Don't they desire that? Seriously, is sharing a uniquely human virtue?

But wherefore should middle earth remain forever desolate and dark, whereas the Elves could make it as fair as Eressea, nay even as Valinor? And since you have not returend thither, as you might, I percieve that you love thies Middle-earth, as do I. Is it not then our task to labor together for it's enrichment...?

Why indeed? But could they really?

And since you have not returned thither, as you might, I percieve that you love this Middle-earth, as do I. Is it not then our task to labor together for it's enrichment...?

I think Sauron is right. But how sincere is he? The text would indicate that this was a lie, but it certainly has a ring of truth to it.

As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them...

How?


But he, finding that he was betrayed and that the Elves were not deceived, was filled with wrath.

Who was betrayed now? That seems a bit ironic to me.

A mask he still could wear so that if he wished he might decieve the eyes of men, seeming to them wise and fair. But he ruled rather by force and fear, if they might avail...

This seems odd to me. What's up with that?

For in the days of the sojourn of Sauron in that land (Numenor) the hearts of well nigh all its people had been turned towards darkness. Therefore many of those who sailed east in that time and made fortresses and dwellings upon the coasts were already bent to his will, and they served him still gladly in Middle-earth. But because of the power of Gil-Galad these renegades, lords both mighty and evil, for the most part took up their abodes in the southlands far awauy; yet two there were, Herumor and Fuinur, who rose to power among the Haradrim, a great and cruel people that dwelt in the wide lands south of mordor..."

I was interested to learn how the Haradrim came to serve Sauron. Blame the Numenoreans.


But at last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain... but Sauron was also thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own.


Isildur refused this counsil, saying 'This I will have as a weregild for my father's death, and my brother's. Was it not I that dealt the enemy his death-blow?'

Interesting passages.

First it is of note that Sauron wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil. Appearantly he preferred that to, say, Boxing or Fencing. Or a Singing contest. Hmm.

But... who gets the credit for defeating Sauron? The text seems to indicate (to me) that GG and E managed to knock him down before kicking their respective buckets, but Isildur claims to have dealt 'a death blow'. What does that mean? Did he actually best Sauron - who had just killed the two best warriors in the combined army - or did he merely finish off a downed enemy?

Opinions.

But the Dominion of Men was preparing, and all things were changing.... :( :*(

Saruman... had most studied the devices of Sauron of old.

...his pride and desire of mastery was grown great... So... any ideas as to where Saruman's downfall started?

Also.... What does it mean to have studied 'The devices of Sauron of old'? Does that refer to his actions in Beleriand?

Too long he had studied the ways of Sauron in hope to defeat him, and now he envied him as a rival rather than hated his works. Interesting. I have some trouble understanding how this comes about, though... Saruman studies up on what Sauron has done in the past - this seems to me to be simple prudence. Yet somehow this leads to him falling into Sauron's ways. Hmm.

Frodo the halfling, it is said... alone with his Servant. Poor Sam. The official chronicle doesn't even give his name.

And there into the frie where it was wrought he cast the Great Ring of Power.... :eek: :confused:

Do you think maybe the Nice Hobbitses did a little creative editing of what transpired? That would be much like Bilbo first did in his tale of how he got the ring... Or did someone else change the story to make it end more heroically?

Take now this ring...For thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee form weariness. For this is the ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill.

So... what exactly does it do? Sure it's a ring of power, and I gather it's powerful, but is it just a glorified motivational tool?

Also, does Gandalf's possession of the Ring of Fire have anything to do with his penchant for Fire Works?

And an end wasw come for the Eldar of story and of song. Waahhhhh... :(

[Artanis]

Good stuff Wayfarer, and in your own unmistakable style. :)
Originally posted by Wayfarer
Thoughts? Was Sauron really sorry?I think he might have been, but not if it was only because of the defeat of Morgoth. The kind of humbleness you may show out of fear is not real repentance. But being freed from the dominion of his master, he had for the first time a chance to turn away from evil, which he might have tried to do.
I wonder what that means? What bonds?Good question. Maybe it was just the lust for power and the unwillingness to bow to Manwë, inherited and learned from Morgoth.
And of course, the perennial question - was he right?The Valar had not forgotten M-E I think, it had only come to be more and more beyond their authority as time had passed by. The time of the Dominion of Men were entering, and the Valar never had felt any authority over Men, nor tried to influence them or guide them in any way (with exception of Ulmo on a few occations), being as they were 'under the hand of the One', as Finrod once put it.
First it is of note that Sauron wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil. Appearantly he preferred that to, say, Boxing or Fencing. Or a Singing contest. Hmm.Wrestling seemed to be the preferred way among the villains - Morgoth wrestled with Tulkas too ... :D :p

As for how the Elves were aware that Sauron had betrayed them, iirc it was because he was trying to peek into their minds, using the Ring as some sort of medium, perhaps.

Except for Sauron. The old fellow wastes no time getting to work, since he’s getting arrogant in the absence of the Valar. He corrupts lots of men, and does his best with the elves (even though he hates the Eldar), managing to pass himself off as a friend (under the name ‘Annatar’ - Lord of Gifts) and convinces them to help him ‘make Middle-Earth fair‘. Elrond and Gil-Galad sense something’s up, but the rest of them, especially the Noldor in Eregion (Lindon) agree to do so.

Sauron lives up to the name he’s given himself, and teaches the Noldor all sorts of neat stuff - Either that they’d never learned, or that had died with the elder generations in Beleriand.The Eregion Elves. Celebrimbor, grandson of Fëanor. Tolkien should have written more about them.

In a way Celebrimbor made a similar mistake as his grandfather, trying to increase his power and skills by listening to a sweet-tongued and fair-looking villain. I think the death of Celebrimbor is very sad - there goes the last of Fëanor's bloodline in Middle-Earth (at least there are no other known children of Fëanor's sons, though some of them were married).
Waahhhhh... :( Indeed. :(

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
But... who gets the credit for defeating Sauron? The text seems to indicate (to me) that GG and E managed to knock him down before kicking their respective buckets, but Isildur claims to have dealt 'a death blow'. What does that mean? Did he actually best Sauron - who had just killed the two best warriors in the combined army - or did he merely finish off a downed enemy?
I believe Elendil did most of the damage, Mortally wounding him. Elendil was killed (crush, suffacated, and burned) when Sauron fell on top of him, and was likely mostly helpless (a wounded guy in heavy armor is pretty much doomed once he is flat on the groud) Isildur got to him and administered the coup de grace. We have no Idicia of how much damage Gil-Galad did, and personal combat is so dicy that it can not be assumed or estimated from from the nature of the combatants without some actual facts of the fight, and whith Gil-Galad, all we know is that he was burned to death.

[Maedhros]

Again Wayfarer brilliant work. :)

Now to your questions:
Thoughts? Was Sauron really sorry?
I think that for a time he really was, but he was afraid of the judgement of the Valar.
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed
Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it. He still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and co-ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction.

But his capability of corrupting other minds, and even engaging their service, was a residue from the fact that his original desire for 'order' had really envisaged the good estate specially physical well-being) of his 'subjects'.

I wonder what that means? What bonds?
Perhaps he is referring to this:
ibid.
But there was seen the effect of Melkor upon Sauron: he spoke of Melkor in Melkor's own terms: as a god, or even as God. This may have been the residue of a state which was in a sense a shadow of good: the ability once in Sauron at least to admire or admit the superiority of a being other than himself.

And of course, the perennial question - was he right?
I would say that he was right in a way. After all, the Valar did seem to leave ME to it's fate in the FA, even though they had a problem with only the Ñoldor and not the other races of ME.
From the bigger perspective, he was wrong, the Valar had not forgotten about ME, but they had come to realize that it would have to be the races of ME to deal with their world. Because Sauron was a maiar, they send others of their same order to battle him, but just think for a moment, look at the consequences of the Valar in bringing some of the Elves to Valinor, can you image if they intervened again, if something worse would have happened?

Don't they desire that? Seriously, is sharing a uniquely human virtue?
Perhaps, what makes Sauron a great liar is the fact that his lies seem very truthful.
From the Letter # 131
In the first we see a sort of second fall or at least 'error' of the Elves. There was nothing wrong essentially in their lingering against counsel, still sadly with3 the mortal lands of their old heroic deeds. But they wanted to have their cake without eating it. They wanted the peace and bliss and perfect memory of 'The West', and yet to remain on the ordinary earth where their prestige as the highest people, above wild Elves, dwarves, and Men, was greater than at the bottom of the hierarchy of Valinor. They thus became obsessed with 'fading', the mode in which the changes of time (the law of the world under the sun) was perceived by them. They became sad, and their art (shall we say) antiquarian, and their efforts all really a kind of embalming – even though they also retained the old motive of their kind, the adornment of earth, and the healing of its hurts.

I think Sauron is right. But how sincere is he? The text would indicate that this was a lie, but it certainly has a ring of truth to it.
Again, we can come up with the idea that Sauron was such a great liar because it sounds just like the truth.

Interesting. I have some trouble understanding how this comes about, though... Saruman studies up on what Sauron has done in the past - this seems to me to be simple prudence. Yet somehow this leads to him falling into Sauron's ways. Hmm.

It seems to me that in Tolkien's world, if you try and study or find out about the arts of the enemy, you become just like him. The perfect example is the Ring. If any of the wise would have tried to use the ring, they would have turned into corrupted beings like Sauron.

So... what exactly does it do? Sure it's a ring of power, and I gather it's powerful, but is it just a glorified motivational tool?
Also, does Gandalf's possession of the Ring of Fire have anything to do with his penchant for Fire Works?

I guess that it must.

Poor Sam. The official chronicle doesn't even give his name.
I think I may have something for good ole Sam.
From the Book of Lost Tales II: The Fall of Gondolin
Still do the Eldar say when they see good fighting at great odds of power against a fury of evil: "Alas! 'Tis Glorfindel and the Balrog", and their hearts are still sore for that fair one of the Noldor.

I was interested to learn how the Haradrim came to serve Sauron. Blame the Numenoreans.
From the Lost Road and other writtings: The Númenorean chapters
It was night, but there was a bright Moon. They descried ships far off, and they seemed to be sailing west at a speed greater than the storm, though there was little wind. Suddenly the sea became unquiet; it rose until it became like a mountain, and it rolled upon the land. The ships were lifted up, and cast far inland, and lay in the fields. Upon that ship which was cast highest and stood dry upon a hill there was a man, or one in man's shape, but greater than any even of the race of Númenor in stature.
'He stood upon the rock and said: "This is done as a sign of power. For I am Sauron the mighty, servant of the Strong" (wherein he spoke darkly). "I have come. Be glad, men of Númenor, for I will take thy king to be my king, and the world shall be given into his hand."
'And it seemed to men that Sauron was great; though they feared the light of his eyes. To many he appeared fair, to others terrible; but to some evil. But they led him to the king, and he was humble before Tarkalion.

[Beren3000]

Great stuff, Wayfarer :)

It seems that most of your questions were answered, but here is my humble contribution:

Too long he had studied the ways of Sauron in hope to defeat him, and now he envied him as a rival rather than hated his works.
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I think that Saruman was kind of awed by what he could dig up about Sauron's former powers and he thought he could achieve the same himself because he was a Maia: Sauron's equal. IMO, Saruman was a great scholar but he spent too long studying the Rings for his own good. It may even be that he was driven to study the Rings by his desire for knowledge not power. Then, he was corrupted by the thought of them and could think of nothing else but the power they conferred.


As to your question about who's responsible for Sauron's death, I think that Sauron's being "thrown down" wouldn't have counted for much had Isildur not cut the Ring from his finger. He put too much of his power into the Ring for him to live on without it. But that strikes me as odd: in the Third Age, he managed to return to ME and even muster great forces for the War of the Ring and he did all that without the Ring's help. IOW, he managed fine without it. How is it then that he was killed in the SA when the Ring was taken from him?

Thoughts anybody??

[Lefty Scaevola]

Both Sauron and Sauruman were of the Mair of Aule, the craftsman Valar.

[Maedhros]

As to your question about who's responsible for Sauron's death, I think that Sauron's being "thrown down" wouldn't have counted for much had Isildur not cut the Ring from his finger. He put too much of his power into the Ring for him to live on without it. But that strikes me as odd: in the Third Age, he managed to return to ME and even muster great forces for the War of the Ring and he did all that without the Ring's help. IOW, he managed fine without it. How is it then that he was killed in the SA when the Ring was taken from him?
From Ósanwe-kenta
Here Pengolodh adds a long note on the use of hröar by the Valar. In brief he says that though in origin a "self-arraying", it may tend to approach the state of "incarnation", especially with the lesser members of that order (the Maiar). "It is said that the longer and the more the same hröa is used, the greater is the bond of habit, and the less do the 'self-arrayed' desire to leave it. As raiment may soon cease to be adornment, and becomes (as is said in the tongues of both Elves and Men) a 'habit', a customary garb. Or if among Elves and Men it be worn to mitigate heat or cold, it soon makes the clad body less able to endure these things when naked". Pengolodh also cites the opinion that if a "spirit" (that is, one of those not embodied by creation) uses a hröa for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to operate without the hröa. The things that are most binding are those that in the Incarnate have to do with the life of the hröa itself, its sustenance and its propagation. Thus eating and drinking are binding, but not the delight in beauty of sound or form. Most binding is begetting or conceiving.
and from The Published Silmarillion
Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor that was his home.

So you see, while Sauron's hröa or body was destroyed in the SA, his bodily form died but because he was a maiar, his spirit remained and because of his power he was able to reclothe himself. It seems that he lost power when his body was destroyed yet because he has spend a lot of his power in his ring, it could act as an anchor and allow him to regain a form.

[Beren3000]

And you say that this is anything but a Tolkien forum? Man, what would the Sil. forum do without you? :)

[Maedhros]

And you say that this is anything but a Tolkien forum? Man, what would the Sil. forum do without you?
One of the things that one could infer from the ability of the maiar to clothe themselves is the fact that it could explain the fact that because of their greater control of their hröa than their elven and human counterparts, that while Sauron wore the ring he was not turned invisible but Isildur and the hobbits do.

As to what the Sil forum will do without me, well I guess it will do what it has always done, move on.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
So... any ideas as to where Saruman's downfall started?According to UT, it started already in Valinor, at the council of the Valar where the Istari were chosen. There Manwë himself chose Olorin, and Varda regarded him as equal to Curunir, a fact that hurt Saruman's pride. Later, at the arrival in M-E Cirdan gives the Red Ring to Gandalf, thus kindling the jealousy of Saruman. I wonder if this jealousy was also one of the main driving forces behind Saruman's obsession with the ways of Sauron, apart from his lust for power.
So... what exactly does it do? Sure it's a ring of power, and I gather it's powerful, but is it just a glorified motivational tool?

Also, does Gandalf's possession of the Ring of Fire have anything to do with his penchant for Fire Works?I have been thinking that the Elven Rings had the ability to greatly enhance the natural powers of the spirit of bearer, but in a non-corruptive way, since these rings were never touched by Sauron. Galadriel was probably aided by Nenya when she resisted the temptation of the One Ring.

Gandalf was fond of fireworks, but he would have been so without his ring as well. There is a description if him from the UT which tells much: But the last-comer was named among the Elves Mithrandir, the Grey Pilgrim, for he dwelt in no place, and gathered to himself neither wealth nor followers, but ever went to and fro in the Westlands from Gondor to Angmar, and from Lindon to Lуrien, befriending all folk in times of need. Warm and eager was his spirit (and it was enhanced by the ring Narya), for he was the enemy of Sauron, opposing the fire that devours and wastes with the fire that kindles, and succours in wanhope and distress; but his joy, and his swift wrath, were veiled in garments grey as ash, so that only those that knew him well glimpsed the flame that was within. Merry he could be, and kindly to the young and simple, and yet quick at times to sharp speech and the rebuking of folly; but he was not proud, and sought neither power not praise, and thus far and wide he was beloved among all those that were not themselves proud. Mostly he journeyed unwearingly on foot, leaning on a staff; and so he was called among Men of the North Gandalf, “the Elf of the Wand”. For they deemed him (though in error, as has been said) to be of Elven-kind, since he would at times works wonders among them, loving especially the beauty of fire; and yet such marvels he wrought mostly for mirth and delight, and desired not that any should hold him in awe or take his counsels out of fear.

[Earniel]

Also.... What does it mean to have studied 'The devices of Sauron of old'? Does that refer to his actions in Beleriand?
I think it also refers to Sauron's time with Celebrimbor and the art of Ring-making. One can note that Saruman had an incredibly pursuasive voice, I see simularities with Sauron's 'truth-in-lies' way of speaking. They both had a way of twisting reality into pretty words that suited their goals. As for the art of Ring-making, Saruman studied the Ring-lore deeply and he is in LOTR once called 'Ringmaker' which may indicate he in later days tried to put the lore into practice.


Interesting. I have some trouble understanding how this comes about, though... Saruman studies up on what Sauron has done in the past - this seems to me to be simple prudence. Yet somehow this leads to him falling into Sauron's ways. Hmm.
There is a fitting quote that comes to my mind immediatly:

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. For when you look long into the abyss, the abyss looks into you."

I reckon Saruman was a bit too enthousiastic in his research on Sauron and looked a bit too deeply in the abyss.

So... what exactly does it do? Sure it's a ring of power, and I gather it's powerful, but is it just a glorified motivational tool?
RE Gandalf's ring: a quote from 'The Istari' in UT

'For,' he said, 'great labours and perils lie before you, and lest your task prove too great and wearisome, take this Ring for your aid and comfort. It was entrusted to me only to keep secret, and here upon the West-shores it is idle; but I deem that in days ere long to come it should be in nobler hands than mine, that may wield it for the kindling of all hearts to courage.'A ring that could kindle the fire of courage in all hearts, is IMO a valuable possession. Gandalf could use it to smoothe fears in the hearts of others somewhat so they would listen to council, and not least of all his own fears for he hadn't wanted to come to Middle-earth in the first place. He even told Manwë and the other Valar that he feared Sauron and thought himself too weak for the task. Cirdan might have seen that fear in him when Gandalf first arrived in Middle-earth and perhaps he gave the Elven-ring so it indeed could aid him in his task, but could also provide the comfort and courage Gandalf needed for the completion his task.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yeah it says something about Cirdan percieving that Gandalf was the wisest and would face terrible perils.

[Haradrim]

yeah I always thought the ring would inspire in the hearts of people the ideas of the first age and the spirit of the first age. SOmething that would cause them to rise and take action. That would be a powerful tool if you ask me.

[Attalus]

This is my favorite part of the Sil, and the only one I reread every year. Good job, Wayfarer!

[inked]

I posted this back in April over at SFF in a similar thread. Could I get your takes on it?
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I have puzzled long over the effects that an Elven creation using Sauron technology would have over an incarnate Maiar to his benefit. Even if the ring in question were in his physical possession and invisible to all, especially Sauron (in physical and spiritual and magical senses), how could it have aided Gandalf?

Since the elven rings were crafted with Sauron technology but without his direct involvement, they could be utilized to accomplish their intents without risk of subverting the wearer to evil. But not, I think, without revealing their presence to Sauron. The elves on initial wearing were immediately aware of the connection to Sauron and for that reason hid them from him. Could it be that while Sauron was weakened and without form this ability was diminished? And that the elven rings were capable of use without fear of discovery? And that the bearers of these rings learned of a defence against Sauron's discovery of the use of them? For if Elrond and Galadriel and Cirdan (then, of course, Gandalf) were utilizing them in various locales after Sauron's returning powers begat the Necromancer and then the Dark Lord himself, unveiled, how were the Rings shielded? Or, was it necessary that Sauron have the One Ring to be able to detect the others? He had after all retrieved many of the other rings without the One. I have come to the tentative conclusion that the One was necessary for Sauron's detection by direct Ring technology means, but that raises the question of how so clever a mind could have been eluded by the known status of Rivendell and Lothlorien in clear signal of a elven ring subsidized mode. After the Necromancer left Fangorn and went to the prepared place in Mordor, the White Council having driven him out to that end, could he have been unaware of the Possessors? Perhaps then it was that Gandalf came into posession of the ring Cirdan had possessed and its mobility aided its powers?

I confess that I have never thought the ring aided Gandalf in the fight against the Balrog on the Bridge. I have thought that it perhaps aided him in the doorspell situation when he did not know it was a Balrog and gave him the edge to get away alive ("I have met my match and nearly been undone."). I think had it been key to his ability to best the Balrog, JRRT would have indicated its use to either Legolas or Frodo (elf and ringbearer would presumably have insight, though maybe not) or the whole company. What I think ocurred was the realization on Gandalf's part that in his battle weary state, he had no strength in this world to withstand the Balrog, and that he must call on aid from outside the world visible. This was the moment Gandalf invoked his position as a 'servant of the secret fire', not his personal status in the hierarchy of middle earth's creative order. Gandalf then becomes the conduit for that greater power to overpower the Balrog, though it is at great risk and, notably, involves Gandalf in long battle and costs him that physical body in which he had been incarnated. Had Gandalf chosen to battle his (near?)equal in his own power (with or without the aid of the ring given him by Cirdan), I believe he would have lost the battle and the Quest ended for the Company at the Bridge.

Which brings me to what I believe was the actual function of the ring in the story. I think it functioned as a constant reminder of the former values and current values of the Elves, the original intent of Eru in creating Middle Earth, and the strength of all that was created good to oppose the malicious destruction of that Good. I think it focused the goodwill of men and elves and dwarves and ents in Gandalf's awareness and, though their united strength those races were unable to resist Sauron utterly, nevertheless they did so resist and aided Gandalf mightily. If I may be permitted a metaphor, it seems a religious relic effect, sort of iconic, in that it channels a greater reality to a specific entity, but requires an active and cooperative will to so work in a positive mode. Clearly that end could be subverted to Sauron's ends or he would not have desired to control them via the One.

These rings on the proper hands and in their proper usage enable the Elves to discover, create (subcreate), and maintain proper order in Middle Earth. I think they represent the good of science and progress in Middle Earth which must be carefully used and guarded else they become destructive. The effect of the One is to subvert that to malicious ends, which though not supremely victorius, so twists those uses out of proper context that they lose power in the world of Middle Earth. The Elves foresee the possibility but are uncertain of what the effect of the One's destruction will be. Nevertheless they choose to resist and risk All, along with their allies against Evil. There was the true power and aid to Gandalf in the use of the Elven Ring!
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Thanks!

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Thoughts? Was Sauron really sorry?

I Believe Sauron did repent, at first, but he did not want to be humbled, after all, he had seen his master languish in the halls of mandos for 3 ages, and i am sure he did not want that to happen to him, sort of a "It is better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven" sort of thing

I wonder what that means? What bonds?

These are not physical bonds, like the chains placed on Melkor, but metaphorical, serving morgoth sauron had power beyond his wildest dreams, if he suffered to be taken to valinor, and humbled in front of manwe, his power over others would be gone

These two are linked in my mind.

[Wayfarer]

<.< >.>

Silly subforum. I think I've been missing people's posts here. :rolleyes:

I Believe Sauron did repent, at first, but he did not want to be humbled, after all, he had seen his master languish in the halls of mandos for 3 ages, and i am sure he did not want that to happen to him, sort of a "It is better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven" sort of thing

I am unsure... speaking from my own experience, I think that while pride is always a factor, the biggest reason for not facing your own mistakes is often shame. I think Sauron was really sorry, but felt guilty about having fallen into corruption, and didn't want to go back and deal with everybody.

Most likely, he tried to redeem himself by attempting to act good and stay out of trouble on his own. But that doesn't work, so he eventually fell back into old habits.

These are not physical bonds, like the chains placed on Melkor, but metaphorical, serving morgoth sauron had power beyond his wildest dreams, if he suffered to be taken to valinor, and humbled in front of manwe, his power over others would be gone

Again... I'm not so sure. While it is obviously not a case of physical restraints, I don't think that 'having had power' really fits the bill.

I agree that Sauron most likely picked up a taste for power while working for Morgoth... but the text seems, to me at least, that there was something else at work. It has been fairly well established elsewhere that Morgoth had the power to constrain certain creatures (such as orcs) to evil, in essence 'binding' them to do his will even after he was gone. Would it be possible for him to have done the same to Sauron (who, as you may recall, later claimed to be Morgoth returned.)

[jammi567]

Sure it's a ring of power, and I gather it's powerful, but is it just a glorified motivational tool?

Well, for more infomation on the subject:
http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm

As well as this, Michael Martinez has also written a good essay on the subject at:
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/58090

[kerbouchard]

I wonder what that means? What bonds?
I always thought that this meant things like, if i don't do x,y,z the everlasting darkness will overtake me. You know, Oaths, like the sort of bonds that the Oath of the Sons of Feanor laid on them. At the end of the Silmarillion Maedhros and Maglor have this discussion about whether they should steal the silmarils or just surrender. But they finally decide they have to honor the Oath or they will be screwed.


I was interested to learn how the Haradrim came to serve Sauron. Blame the Numenoreans.
During the time Sauron was captive in Numenor, almost all of the Numenoreans served him through his proxy Al Pharazaon. In "The Letters of Tolkien" Tolkien says "of course Sauron had the ring when he was captive in Numenor, that is why it was so easy for him to corrupt them." The Haradrim were descendant of Numenorean settlements on the coast of Middle Earth. AS was the "Mouth of Sauron"

But... who gets the credit for defeating Sauron? The text seems to indicate (to me) that GG and E managed to knock him down before kicking their respective buckets, but Isildur claims to have dealt 'a death blow'. What does that mean? Did he actually best Sauron - who had just killed the two best warriors in the combined army - or did he merely finish off a downed enemy?
This is an interesting question. Consider the following. In the Silmarillion there are many instances of the Eldar fighting Maiar in the form of Balrogs. But no Elf ever killed a balrog unless he himself was killed. So even a great among the firstborn, who walked in both worlds at once, could not kill a balrog without being killed himself.

So we see that Feanor and Fingon were killed by taking on more than one balrog and Glorfindel and Gandalf killed a balrog in one on one combat and were killed in the process. The one who seems to have fared best was Feanor holding of several balrogs until maedhros and the bros came to his aid, but Feanor was mortally wounded and died. I believe it is a question of those who walk in the seen world (man, hobbit, dwarf) vs those who walk in the both the seen and the unseen world (vala, maia, eldar) and that only those who walk in both worlds can defeat a maia. IN the Letters of JRRT, Tolkien said that even with the Ring, no mortal could have defeated Sauron and he implied that only Elrond had a clear chance.

So since the Eldar have 100% failure rate in surviving one on one combat with balrogs. We can assume that Gil-Galad's death was a foregone conclusion and Elendil never had any chance at all. In any event it seems that if gil-galad's best chance was mutual death against Sauron without the ring, then with the ring he needed Elendil's help.

So my answer is Sauron was defeated only because those two took him on together. Isildur might of slit the throat of a downed enemy but he was periheral to the story of that combat.

So... any ideas as to where Saruman's downfall started? Also.... What does it mean to have studied 'The devices of Sauron of old'? Does that refer to his actions in Beleriand? Interesting. I have some trouble understanding how this comes about, though... Saruman studies up on what Sauron has done in the past - this seems to me to be simple prudence. Yet somehow this leads to him falling into Sauron's ways. Hmm.

Sauruman and Sauron were both Maiar of Aulë. In this tale those who followed Aulë seems the most inclined to be arrogant and suffer a fall due to their pride and arrogance that is born of their creative talent. Feanor is one example. I think in the end as a result of examining the skill and subtlety of Sauron and in trying to uncover the secrets of ring making, Saruman finally envied the abilities of Sauron and began to try to outdo him. We can contrast that with Tom Bombadil who has absolutely zero interest in the ring and in power or dominion. In "The Letters", Tolkien describes him as someone that can be compared to somebody who has taken a vow of poverty and as such is interested by neither power nor material gain. His interests lie elsewhere so he can't be corrupted.

So... what exactly does it do? Sure it's a ring of power, and I gather it's powerful, but is it just a glorified motivational tool?

I think the one instance where we have a sure case of Gandalf using the Elven ring is when he "motivates" Bilbo to give up the One Ring and leave it on the fireplace mantle for Frodo. If you re read that passage with this thought in mind, you will see that something extra is going on. A second instance of two Elven rings acting in concert are when Bilbo states in Rivendell that he wanted to go back and get the ring several times but Elrond *and* Gandalf would'nt let him. Or should we say "prevented" him ... with their motivational tools. After all, Bilbo accomplished two things that no other ring bearer before or after ever could. He gave up the ring and he didn't pursue it afterwards (gollum, sauron and frodo went crazy when they saw somebody else with it).

We can contrast the power of Gandalf's ring with that of the Witch King. The Witch King wields fear. Gandalf wields hope. The Witch King is very powerful.

Last thought on Elven rings. While sam's gardner box was created using the power of Galadriel's ring, Frodo's Phial of Galadriel seems to have had some true power too. I think maybe it was some sort of device that allowed him to channel galadriel's help or the power of her Elven Ring. Like when they defeated the watchers at the pass of Cirith Ungol. Galadriel was quite powerful but as tolkien says in the Letters, while she seemed to think she could defeat Sauron with the Ring, Tolkien wasn't quite sure.

My question concerning Galadriel. How does she know that she has been forgiven and can pass into middle earth (it is stated somewhere that her ban on returning to valinor is lifted because she refused the ring from frodo)