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Dark Lord Sauron
06-25-2004, 12:31 AM
It brings great joy to my heart to read about the accomplishments of my servant, the Witch-King of Angmar. This man led his armies to victory and ruined the kingdom of the heirs of that rat Isildur. The fact that he lost it all within a period of one year nonwithstanding.

However, I do have some questions concerning the background of this region. It is well known that Arnor was the Northern Kingdom, and together with Lindon, ruled much of the region. In 861, the Kingdom was split among three sons. Thus the realms of Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhuduar were created. Arthedain was considered the greatest of these realms, as the kings of that state were of closest relation to Isildur. This region lived in relative peace until the reign of the sixth king of Arthedain, Malvegil. At this point my great servant, the Lord of the Nazgul, reappeared and created the Kingdom of Angmar to serve as a noble alternative to the pathetic states of the North in III 1300. Rhuduar, sensing the greatness of this Kingdom, forged a military alliance with the witch-king. War between Athedain and the alliance of Angmar and Rhuduar began during the reign of the seventh Athedainian king, Argeleb I. Arveleg I, the eighth king of Arthedain, who took the throne upon the slaugther of his father, forged an alliance with Cardolan and Lindon. After fifty-three years, however, the Witch-King destroyed the tower of Amon Sul and killed Arveleg I in the assault. The ninth king, Araphor, saw the near collapse of his kingdom when the Lord of the Nazgul laid siege to the capital of Fornost. However, through extreme luck, he was beat back and status quo was declared. However, Rhuduar was now a vassal of Angmar, and Cardolan was either heavily damaged or destroyed.

Open war did not begin again until the reign of the twelth king, Arveleg II. The thirteenth king, Araval, tried to save his kingdom through both diplomatic and military efforts. Araphant, the forteenth king, realized that Arthedain could not survive in its present condition. He thus created a military alliance with Gondor in the hopes of military aid. However, Gondor was preoccupied with the Wainrider invasion and could not supply much help. Araphant had his son Arvedui make a claim on the throne of Gondor when the Gondorian king had died childless, but this effort was blocked by the Steward. Arvedui himself became the fifteenth king of Arthedain. Under his rule, the Witch King finally completed the destruction of Arthedain. In III 1974, the forces of Angmar sacked Fornost. Arvedui fled to the north but perished. His son, Aranarth, became ruler of the people of Arthedain, but chose instead the title of Chieftain, rather than King, as Arthedain was destroyed. The following year, the forces of Gondor destroyed Angmar.

This is where my questions begin. To start out with, I would like to know just how much of the north did the Chieftain rule over after III 1975. Did he rule the former lands of Arthedain? Cardolan? Rhuduar? Angmar? If he did rule much of these lands, then why did he not simply reclaim the title of king? Was Cardolan destroyed in the mid III 1300s, or was it simply so heavily damaged by invasion that it never recovered and spent most of the next few centuries as a hollow shell of its former self? From the Encyclopedia of Arda I only derived "...the Dúnedain of Cardolan were all but extinct". This means that the future of Cardolan depended on the percentage of Dunedain that had lived in Cardolan. Was the ruling family simply wiped out, and the peasant men who had lived there beforehand return to tribal rule? Did Arthedain claim rule over Cardolan after its misfortune? If Arthedain, Cardolan, Rhuduar, and/or Angmar were NOT reclaimed by the Chieftain, what happened to the lands? The Simarillion hints that "at length naught was left of them but a strange people wandering secretly in the wild, and other men knew not their homes nor the purpose of their journeys, and save in Imladris, in the house of Elrond, their ancestry was forgotten". Does this mean that the men who inhabited these lands but weren't Dunedain returned to their primitive ways?

If you can answer any or all of these questions, I would appreciate it.

Valandil
06-25-2004, 08:09 AM
Curse you, Dark Lord Sauron (and your little friend, the W-K too!)... you'll get no information from ME! ;)

(after all - we were living secretly in order to avoid letting you finish us off! you won't fool me THAT easily!) :)

Count Comfect
06-25-2004, 03:04 PM
As a disinterested observer, rather than a touchy Dunedain ;) I would say that the greatest likelihood is that the reason they stayed "Chieftains" is that they ruled over only the Dunedain that were left (who as you mentioned, were all but exctinct) meaning that the other Men in the area didn't acknowledge them. So they could not claim Kingship, since they didn't actually rule the territory. The kingdoms were sort of dead.

Michael Martinez
06-28-2004, 03:06 AM
Originally posted by Dark Lord Sauron
This is where my questions begin. To start out with, I would like to know just how much of the north did the Chieftain rule over after III 1975. Did he rule the former lands of Arthedain? Cardolan? Rhuduar? Angmar? If he did rule much of these lands, then why did he not simply reclaim the title of king?...

You may want to take a look at my essay, Of thegns and kings and rangers and things (www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/64660). It attempts to answer some of your concerns.

...Was Cardolan destroyed in the mid III 1300s, or was it simply so heavily damaged by invasion that it never recovered and spent most of the next few centuries as a hollow shell of its former self?...

Cardolan ceased to function as an independent kingdom after its last king died (sometime between T.A. 1272 and 1349, when Argeleb I claimed kingship over all of Arnor again). From 1349 until 1409, Cardolan seems to remained an autonomous region under the crown of Argeleb I.

In 1409, the Dunedain of Cardolan were driven into the western regions of the land. Many of the Dunedain took refuge in the Old Forest, and others took refuge in the Barrow-downs. The last prince of Cardolan (NOT a descendant of Isildur through the male line) died in a night-time battle in the Barrow-downs.

Cardolan's people were diminished but continued until the Great Plague of 1636. The last of the Dunedain of Cardolan either died or fled in that time. A few people, probably descended from the ancient Gwathuirim (and thus related to the Men of Bree, the Men of Eryn Vorn, and the Dunlendings) seem to have survived. Tharbad also survived, but Tolkien doesn't say if its population was Numenorean.

...From the Encyclopedia of Arda I only derived "...the Dúnedain of Cardolan were all but extinct". This means that the future of Cardolan depended on the percentage of Dunedain that had lived in Cardolan...

The Encyclopedia of Arda seldom gets anything correct. Most of the entries there are either wrong or incomplete.

...The Simarillion hints that "at length naught was left of them but a strange people wandering secretly in the wild, and other men knew not their homes nor the purpose of their journeys, and save in Imladris, in the house of Elrond, their ancestry was forgotten". Does this mean that the men who inhabited these lands but weren't Dunedain returned to their primitive ways?

I would not call them primitive. They were simply living in isolated circumstances, probably very similar to Beorn's farm.

They would have had few leaders, if any, and no communities of any significant size. They probably would have maintained some relationship with Tharbad and Bree, and possibly the Shire, but would mostly have just kept to themselves.

The Dunedain seem to have settled in the Angle (formerly southern Rhudaur) sometime after 1975.

Valandil
06-28-2004, 03:31 AM
Well... now that MM has spilled the beans, ;) I'll also suggest that maybe the term "chieftain" was used instead of "king" because they then truly ruled only a people (those Dunedain still alive in their former lands) and no longer ruled any land.

In other words, 'king' might be more likely applied to those who have legitimate claim over specific territory, while 'chieftain' may simply imply rulership of a 'people-group'. :)

Dark Lord Sauron
06-30-2004, 05:19 PM
Bahahaha! Southern Rhudaur and the Dúnedain are MINE!!!

Michael Martinez,

That was a great essay! It was very informative. So the Dúnedain, even after their final fall in III 1974, maintained formal rule over Arnor, but never really exercised that right? From what you stated, it seems like the people living there would have never minded being directly ruled by the heirs of Elendil, but the Dúnedain chose on their own not to rule. Why is this? After the destruction of Angmar there was no imminent threat to Dúnedain rule. As you said yourself, the local natives and the Dúnedain forged a pact where the Dúnedain could freely reclaim control over the Kingdom of Arnor. Aranarth couldn't restore Arnor because of the lack of native Dúnedain, but the timespan between III 1974 and III 3319 is very long and it strikes me as odd that they couldn't have rebuilt their numbers and retake the scpeter.

Three other questions, both of them concerning maps:

You seemed to suggest that the references to the destruction of Arnor in III 1974 where not to be taken seriously or literally. Arnor technically existed, and even controlled all the territory that it had controlled before the division of the kingdom in III 861, but this was mostly a formality. In reality, the local people ruled themselves, if there was any local authority at all.

Because of the formality of the kingdom of Arnor, it would then not be incorrect to place it on a map of Middle Earth as controlling all of the former territory of Cardolan, Rhudaur and Arthedain, with a small section within the Angle in southern Rhudaur representing the actual rule of the Dúnedain?

What were the significance of the names Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhudaur after III 1974, if any? Were they used as fictional provinces in the now fictional kingdom, or were they only geographical references? Most maps of Middle Earth at the time of the War of the Ring don't seem to contain any of these names.

What happened to Carn Dum? Tolkien stated that following the battle before Fornost in III 1975, the rout that occured was so complete that not a single individual in the Witch-King's army survived. Was Carn Dum therefore evacuated by its remaining population, who found it too hard to recover and repopulate from this loss? Was it destroyed? Or did it survive?

Michael Martinez
06-30-2004, 11:41 PM
I think, in 1975, it was deemed impossible to restore Arnor because so many things had been destroyed: cities, towns, whole families, a multitude of records, etc.

Had Aranarth re-established Arnor right away, would he not have been inviting yet more attention from whatever power was directing various actions against the two realms?

My feeling is that Aranarth would have been advised by the Eldar and Gondor to leave well enough alone, and to give the peoples of Eriador a chance to recover from their dreadful losses.

And that might have occurred, but two severe winters ensued in the following thousand years and the population of Eriador became denuded again.

Lefty Scaevola
07-01-2004, 08:37 AM
Yeah, maitaining a formal government over an empty and indefensible land would only provide a focus and target for aggression. Leaving your entire remaining military power a hidden and skilled guerilla force, and eschewing any visable concertration of wealth and infrastructure would put it much lower on agressors' radar screens.
As for Angmar: it was likely back to neolithic hunting band for the local men(forodwaith and relatives), retro-migration for any esterling population, and hiding in Orc holds for the goblins. Maybe large orc citys like Mt Gunderbad survived.