Númenor

[AntiXZer01]

I was just wondering if anyone knew of cities, towers, or fortress' in Gondor and Anor besides Annúminas, Amon Sûl, Minas Tirith, Minas Ithil, Osgiliath, Edoras, Orthanc, or Helm's Deep. There had to be at least two more as there were seven locations of the Seeing Stones. What are the other two and are there any others? Most specificaly those of Arnor.

[Valandil]

Four southern stones were at Osgiliath (fell into the drink - the Anduin during the Kin-strife), Minas Ithil (fell into Sauron's hands when captured by the Nazgul), Orthanc and Minas Tirith (we know what happened to those).

The three northern stones were at Annuminas (presumably moved to Fornost when the kings relocated) and Amon Sul (relocated to Fornost when Angmar's forces took that tower) - both of which also fell into the drink - at the Ice Bay of Forochel. The third was at Emyn Beraid - the Tower Hills. It wasn't 'in accord' with the rest and only looked west - to the True West of Elvenhome and Valinor beyond.

If you're looking for the full accounts, see the histories of Arnor and Gondor in Appendix A of LotR. :)

[AntiXZer01]

thank you, i kinda knew that already and im pretty sure that the stone at Annúminas was the only stone of the north to survive Arnor(it was held by Cirdan and taken back to Valinor when Gandalf left) but what about other cities and towers of men?

[Valandil]

Originally posted by AntiXZer01
thank you, i kinda knew that already and im pretty sure that the stone at Annúminas was the only stone of the north to survive Arnor(it was held by Cirdan and taken back to Valinor when Gandalf left) but what about other cities and towers of men?

Actually, the ones from both Annuminas and Amon Sul went down into the Sea with Arvedui - sorry if I was unclear. It was the one from Emyn Beraid which Cirdan placed aboard the ship.

Let's see... cities, towers, etc: If you want strictly Arnor and Gondor, Edoras was probably built by the Rohirrim. In Gondor there was also Pelargir - plus Cirith Ungol and parts of the Black Gate fortifications were built by Gondor (to place a watch on Mordor). There were other un-named forts, particularly along the Anduin. Arnor had Emyn Beraid, Fornost, presumably cities / fortresses for Cardolan and Rhudaur (the former likely at least at Tyrn Gorthad - the Barrow Downs, before they were evil - the latter perhaps near 'The Last Bridge'). Tharbad was considered part of Arnor - though I don't know if it was exclusively populated by Dunedain. There's Bree - but that was inhabited by non-Numenoreans in the days of LotR - I suspect it was the same earlier.

Don't know if that helps you much. Particular interest?

[AntiXZer01]

Im just interested in Númenor. Since I read Silmarillion I have been interested in that, I wish there was a full story about Númenor and its histories. Yet was Cirith Ugol made by men? I know Minas Morgaul was formerly Minas Ithil made by the men of Gondor but I always thought Cirith Ungol was made by Orcs or Sauron. As for Edoras, I know it was built in the time of Eorl of Rohan but I just added it because it was an allied city. Is Tol-Amaroth considered part of Pelegrir or is it seperated by a distance, and was it made by men or elves? it is said that the elves dweled in that south for a long while before sailing from those shores, perhaps some of those towers were built by elves?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

cirith ungol was built by men, as a watch tower to keep orcs etc in mordor, as were the towers of teeth, at morannon, and durthang, the castle at the northern edge of Udun.

in gondor, there were settlements at Linhir, poros, dol amroth morthond(blackroot vale) and other places, i:e small towns and villages throughout gondor
in arnor, there was tharbad

[Michael Martinez]

Originally posted by AntiXZer01
Im just interested in Númenor. Since I read Silmarillion I have been interested in that, I wish there was a full story about Númenor and its histories.

You won't find a full history of Numenor, but you will find more history about it in Unfinished Tales of Numenor and Middle-earth.

Yet was Cirith Ugol made by men? I know Minas Morgaul was formerly Minas Ithil made by the men of Gondor but I always thought Cirith Ungol was made by Orcs or Sauron. As for Edoras, I know it was built in the time of Eorl of Rohan but I just added it because it was an allied city.

Actually, Edoras was built by Eorl's son. According to Unfinished Tales, Eorl settled at Aldburg in the Folde (a region just north of Anorien). Aldburg was apparently an old Numenorean settlement which had been part of Calenardhon.

Is Tol-Amaroth considered part of Pelegrir or is it seperated by a distance, and was it made by men or elves? it is said that the elves dweled in that south for a long while before sailing from those shores, perhaps some of those towers were built by elves?

I think you mean Dol Amroth, which was located many miles northwest of Pelargir. It was a fortress on a bluff overlooking a small bay into which the river Ringlo flowed. The Elven port was Edhellond stood at the confluence of the Ringlo and Morthond rivers (Morthond flowed south to meet the Ringlo somewhat east of Dol Amroth).

Although Dol Amroth was named for the Elven king who died in the bay, some people speculate that the fortress may have been more ancient.

Unfinished Tales says that the ancestors of the Lords of Dol Amroth (who were also the Princes of Belfalas) were given the title of "prince" by Elendil because they were related to him (the relationship is not disclosed).

The chief Numenorean settlements which are known to have existed at the end of the Second Age included:

ARNOR: Annuminas (Elendil's capitol), Fornost Erain, Lond Daer Ened (possibly destroyed by the great storms accompanying the Downfall of Numenor), Tharbad, and Bree. Tharbad was the site of a huge bridge which spanned the Gwathlo river. In the Third Age, Arnor maintained a fortress and garrison on the north side of the river and Gondor maintained a fortress and garrison on the south side. Gondor withdrew its forces after the Great Plague.

GONDOR: Pelargir (founded in S.A. 2350, probably as a base for the Numenorean navy), Osgiliath (founded by Isildur and Anarion, and their capitol), Minas Anor (Anarion's city, and a fortress which defended Gondor against attack from the Gwathuirim of the Ered Nimrais), Minas Ithil (Isildur's city, apparently intended to defend Gondor against attack from Mordor), Aglarond (a fortress which guarded the southern part of the Gap of Calenardhon, later the Gap of Rohan), and Orthanc (a fortress which guarded the northern part of the Gap of Calenardhon).

UMBAR: Founded as a Numenorean colony in S.A. 2280. Umbar became the northernmost kingdom of the Black Numenoreans, the descendants of the Kings Men who survived the Downfall of Numenor. It was eventually conquered by Gondor but Gondorian rebels seized it in TA 1448 and established a rival kingdom there. The Gondorian line of the Umbarian rebel lords came to an end when the city was taken and destroyed in 1810. Umbar's lands were controlled by Gondor for a time, but it probably occupied by Wainriders or Haradrim during Ondoher's reign (TA 1936-44), when the Wainriders sent a force around Mordor to attack Gondor from the south. Gondor never controlled Umbar again.

There was at least one more Numenorean colony close to Mordor, possibly two. The lords there at the end of the Second Age were called Herumor and Fuinur by the Men of Gondor. They were presumably defeated in the War of the Last Alliance. Tolkien does not say whether their peoples were Black Numenoreans, but the Mouth of Sauron is a Black Numenorean, so apparently at least one enclave of Black Numenoreans survived until the end of the Third Age. My feeling is that the Haradrim close to Mordor and southern Ithilien were probably Black Numenoreans.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

What exactlly is a Black Numenorean? Does "black" mean evil!? In Tolkiens world usually it is not so, usually it is more of enlightenment. The "light" individuals, see the two trees, see the glory of numenore, whatever. And the "dark" like the dark elves are simply lest noble or something. so what exactlly are Black Numenoreans?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

It is probably a descendant of Ar-Pharazon

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Does it say anywhere in Tolkiens works what they were exactlly? For a more... Tolkien Definition?

[Radagast The Brown]

The great cape and land-locked firth of Umbar had been Numenorean since days of old; but it was a stronghold of the King's Men, who were afterward called Black Numenoreans, corrupted by Sauron, and who hated above all the followers of Elendil. After the fall of Suaron their race swifly dwindled or became merged with the Men of Middle Earth, but they inherited without lessening their hatred of Gondor.

From appendix A.
Black here is evil, then - they were the survivers of the supporters of Ar Pharazon - who was evil.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I've just finished reading that part of the Sil and apart from Beren and Luthien it was my favourite part.

[Valandil]

It is probably a descendant of Ar-Pharazon

He does not seem to have had any descendants... at least certainly none who survived the fall of Numenor, most likely none at all.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

I think I have got it, I read something and it says the Black Númenoreans were the followers of Ar-Pharazôn. Even though Númenor was destroyed and removed from the circles of this world there were a few "Black Númenoreans" on the coasts of Middle-Earth. I guess after the Andúniëians of Númenor had come to Gondor and Arnor they resented the fall of their king and the Lordship of Elendil of the Faithfull.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yeah RtB said that above :D

[Manveru]

Does anyone know anything about 'Lond Daer'? I saw it on the map of Middle-earth a little while ago and wondered about it. Its not in the index and I'd never seen anything about it so I was just wondering if it was an elven haven (or gondorian) and if it was mentioned anywhere else. On on the map it is at the mouth of the gwaithlo (greyflood), the river that runs through Tharbad.

[Wayfarer]

It was quite possibly unaffiliated, although it is most likely that it was a former Arnorian city. Judging just from the name Lond Daer ('Great Haven') I am inclined to suspect that it was at one time the largest port in Arnor.

I somewhat doubt it would be elvish, since they seem to have used the grey havens almost exclusively, and in any case I believe (not looking at the map or anything) that the Grey Havens were closer.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

there is a piece of information in unfinished tales concerning lond daer, and emyn vorn, that states that lond daer was a great numenorean port in middle earth, and that the trees felled from emyn vorn were sailed to numenor from lond daer, IIRC

[Radagast The Brown]

Yup - as Child of Ungoliant said, it's in UT. Tar Aldarion built it and called it Vinyalonde. It was used by the Numenorians to take wood to build ships, and afterwards was used in the wars against Sauron.

[Manveru]

cool thanks

[ItalianLegolas]

was Minas Anor one?

[ItalianLegolas]

in the hobbit, i believe that there is a mention of an "Elf-tower" that Gil-Galad built west of the Shire as a gesture of friendship with Elendil? Could that possibly be one?

[Pytt]

that is the tower on the towerhills, if I not completely mistake...
one of Sams daughters settled there, with the Red book.

[Radagast The Brown]

One of what, Italian Legolas? :)

[Valandil]

The hills were called the 'Emyn Beraid' - on them were three white towers, the tallest of which, named Elostirion, held the palantir which looked only to the West.

Yes - Gil-galad likely built them for Elendil late in the Second Age, but that would be found in LOTR, not 'The Hobbit' - and yes, Sam's daughter and her family settled in the area when it was annexed to the Shire as 'Westmarch' early in the Fourth Age. :)

[Valandil]

One of what, Italian Legolas? :)

I think he means one of the Numenorean settlements.

I suspect that SOME of Elendil's people lived there - and perhaps some (much) earlier colonists from Numenor... if only to keep a watch on the towers and so forth. I doubt it was anything like a major city though.

[ItalianLegolas]

i got mixed up with the references because i'm reading The Return of Shadow, and i thought it said Hobbit, but i'm probably wrong