The Mirror of Galadriel

[AntiXZer01]

I was just reading the book and came across this paragraph in the Chapter "The Mirror of Galdariel"

"Then there was a pause, and after it many swift scenes followed that Frodo in some way knew to be parts of a great history in which he had become involved. The mist cleared and he saw a sight which hehad never seen before but knew at once: the Sea. Darkness fell. The sea rose and raged in a great storm. Then he saw against the sun, sinking blood-red into a wrack of clouds, the black outline of a tall ship with torn sails riding up out of the west. Then a wide river flowing through a populous city. Then a wide fortress with seven towers. And then again a ship with black sails, but now it was morning again, and the water rippled in the light, and a banner bearing the emblem of a white tree shone in the sun. A smoke as of fire and battle arose, and again the sun went down ina burning red that faded into a grey mist; and into the mist a small ship passed away, twinkling with lights. It vanished and Frodo sighed and prepared to draw away." (Tolkien, 379)

I was wondering what it was refering to. At first I thought it was refering to Númenor and it's history. I thought the tall ship with torn sails may have been Elendil's ship comming from Númenor to Middle-Earth after Númenor's downfall and the rage of the seas. The wide river through the populous city is probably refering to Osgiliath of Gondor but it could be another city in Arnor? The main misunderstanding is with the next vision, a wide fortress with seven towers? I can't think of any one city or fortress with seven towers. Could it have been Annúminas!? After reading it over the only other possibility is that it is Minas Tirith, but Minas Tirith of Gondor did not exactlly have seven towers, it had seven tiers rather than towers. The next few visions I perceive as being the battle of the Pelennor Fields and the arrival of Aragorn on the black ships of the Corsairs of Umbar.
Im not sure about any of this and so I was wondering what some of my fellow Lord of the Rings Gurus think it is speaking of. After all Galadriel says herself the mirror shows things that were, things that are, and things that have not yet come to pass. What seen in the mirror, sometimes even the wisest cannot tell. Yet im sure someone else has an idea?

[Beren3000]

I agree with you...the black ship is the corsair of Umbar that Aragorn rode to the Pelennor. This said, you can fill in the rest of the analogy exactly as you did. As to why Minas Tirith is said to have seven towers, I can't figure it out. But I'm sure that this vision isn't about Numenor, because in all of Frodo's visions and dreams, he's given a bit of insight about the future events. For example when he dreams in Bombadil's house (I think) at being under a curtain of rain that turned to "silver glass"; this dream is just about his going to Valinor. Another example would be when Sam saw Frodo's face in the mirror after being bitten by Shelob. So you see, I believe that all these visions are related to the future not the past, which makes the Minas Tirith theory (IMO) the most plausible one...

P.S. Welcome to the moot :)!

[AntiXZer01]

You say that it has nothing to do with the past or history of Númenor but then what is the first ship? The one with torn sales from the west. It is before The seven towered fortress.
it also says near the begining "a great history in which [Frodo] had become involved." Wouldn't this kind of mean that he saw history present and future? I think that Elendils trip to the west is part of the rings past that Frodo is now apart of. My main question was of the Seven towered fortress and I was hoping to hear that a former city of Arnor or Gondor had a fortress like this, but disapointingly it is probably just a bad description of Minas Tirith.
(also thanx for the welcome but im not exactlly new, my other ID wont let me post for some reason!)

[Forkbeard]

Minas Tirith has 7 towers because it has 7 tiers....each tier has a gate with towers set. Thus an invader must literally take each level, one gate at a time.

Forkbeard

[AntiXZer01]

So would you consider Minas Tirith to have seven towers if it had the Tiers at the same level? still seven gates, still offset so you have to take each one by one?

[AntiXZer01]

sorry for double posting...

[Beren3000]

I still can't believe that the first ship is Elendil's. I rather think that the first ship was Aragorn's and the second was Frodo's (the one that took him to Valinor) that's why
It vanished and Frodo sighed and prepared to draw away.

[AntiXZer01]

The ship i think to be Elendils is not the ship with black sails, the one we agree to be Aragorns, im speaking of the first one mentioned, the Ship with torn sails. as i see it it is:

1. torn sail ship = elendil
2. black sail ship = aragorn
3. small ship with lights = frodo valinor

[Beren3000]

Oh, I see what you mean! My mistake :o

[Valandil]

Originally posted by AntiXZer01
The ship i think to be Elendils is not the ship with black sails, the one we agree to be Aragorns, im speaking of the first one mentioned, the Ship with torn sails. as i see it it is:

1. torn sail ship = elendil
2. black sail ship = aragorn
3. small ship with lights = frodo valinor

I agree with that - although the first ship could be representative of all the nine ships together... or even Isildur's ship. The river flowing through the city is surely Osgiliath.

I don't have much problem with the '7 towers' representing Minas Tirith. It could have been an earlier concept of Tolkien's, which he didn't revise, or an inadequate description of just what Frodo saw (to keep us in suspense) or an image of Minas Tirith as it once was (maybe Galadriel had old intelligence ;) ). It could of course, HAVE been another city of the Numenoreans... but I suspect it IS Minas Tirith - so that it ties in with the rest of the story, rather than being the sole reference to another place, without anything else to indicate to us just what it is.

[AntiXZer01]

Indeed it is probably Minas Tirith of Gondor *Sigh* I had a pretty cool image of a Fortress with seven destinct towers somewhere in Arnor! hah!
Two more issues which arent really realated to this thread but i dont wanna start new ones so i will aks here, 1. were there any good orcs? or at least self serving orcs that didnt care for completely evil things!? Wasn't it Gorbag and Shagrat who were going to get away from the wars of Mordor and settle down themselves? and 2. more to the subject than 1, who were the men of Angmar? It says that the witchking was not actually one of their kin. were the men of Angmar ragged men not of the three houses of Númenor?

[The Gaffer]

Orcs: I guess they were mostly self-serving (which is, arguably, one of the traits Tolkien identifies with evil), though when Sauron arose their evil was directed towards his purposes. The interaction between Shagrat and Gorbag, plus the Uruk-hai chapter, shows that they had their own culture and ways.

Angmar: I would guess that some of them came from the three warring factions in Arnor (not sure what you mean by the "three houses" of Numenor; weren't the Three Houses from the Elder Days, when they allied with the Elves against Morgoth?) but most would be drawn from northern communities around the sources of the Anduin. IIRC, the Rohirrim originally came from there and had driven out, or suppressed, other groups of men in that area.

IIRC, there's also a reference to the Witch-King's dealings with (non-Dunedain) northern men in the Appendix, where ?Arvedui is given shelter by the people around Forochel, who believed that he (the Witch-King) could command the elements. It's not hard to imagine that he would easily subjugate anyone who lived near to Carn Dum.

[AntiXZer01]

When i said the three houses of Númenor, i mean the three alied houses with the elves. It was only these three houses that went to Númenor and so they were the begginings of it. sorry for any confusion.

[Olmer]

While I was re-reading this chapter I stumbled on curious words. When Frodo saw an Eye in the Mirror and started to slip forward Galadriel warned him not to touch the water.
I was wondering what would happen if he did?
Any suggestions?

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Olmer
While I was re-reading this chapter I stumbled on curious words. When Frodo saw an Eye in the Mirror and started to slip forward Galadriel warned him not to touch the water.
I was wondering what would happen if he did?
Any suggestions?

I think there have been a couple threads on it... one not too long ago, so it might even be in the first few pages here (drat - forgot to look down the page before replying... it MIGHT even be on this page).

When first reading it, I guess I thought that would just 'ruin the view' or something... and I guess I clung to that. Some suggest in the thread though, that Sauron would have 'seen' Frodo or become aware of him, if he (as Ring-bearer) had touched the water. Pull up the thread and see what you think...