Faramir king of Gondor?

[Beren3000]

This may sound like a stupid question but why wasn't Faramir made king of Gondor?

He was almost as skilled in battle as Aragorn was, and he was very patriotic. As to Aragorn's being the heir of Isildur, I don't think that would've stood in the way; I mean surely Tolkien who believes that the average people can become heroes given the circumstances (like Bilbo, Sam, Frodo etc...)would also believe in earning your right to a throne rather than being born into it.

[sun-star]

Maybe it's that ordinary people can earn the right to be a hero or a great leader through their own qualities, but not to be a king, because a king is a different kind of hero. The bloodline is everything. Faramir would have made a good king, IMO, and there were probably lots of heroes before him who would have done as well, but without being heir to the throne they could never be the 'real' king.

Does that make any sense? Kings aren't just like stewards or warriors - they're kings.

I'm not in a very articulate groove today :D

[Beren3000]

I guess it makes some sense, but I'm still not entirely convinced

[Olmer]

Faramir is not downgraded, actually, he was still carrying the same authority and responsibilities as he would be being the Steward of Gondor.
Here is what Tolkien himself saying on this account.
...Also to be the Prince of Ithilien, the greatest noble after Dol Amroth in the revived Numenorian state of Gondor, soon to be imperial power and prestige, was not a "market - garden job"...
Until much had been done by the restored King, the Prince of Ithilien would be resident march-warden of Gondor, in its main eastward outpost - and also would have many duties in rehabilitating the lost territory...
The chief commanders, under the King, would be Faramir and Imrahil; and one of these would normally remain a military commander at home in the King's absence.
Aragorn re-established the Great Counsil of Gondor, and in that Faramir, who remained by inheritance the Steward (or representative of the King during his absence abroad, or sickness, or between his death and the accession of his heir) would (be) the chief counsellor.Letter #244
I hope this will help you to get convinced that Faramir have got what he was rightfully deserved.:)

[Beren3000]

Yes I'm convinced now, Olmer. Thanks

[Nimbrethil]

And I think, that Faramir is not intrestet at the crown of Gondor, becouse it´s tradition, that governors have the power at Gondor.
Faramir wouldn´t break the law of the kingdom.

Nim

[Beren3000]

I see. Thanks Nimbrethil :)

[Lalaith]

I think it was important for Tolkien that the "old" line of kings got to life again.
Surely Faramir would have been a great king, and maybe it would have been a great idea to make him kind of Gondor while Aragorn would have become king of the Northern territories.

But I think it was already a very nice decision to make Faramir the Prince of Ithilien which was, indeed, a honour.

[Michael Martinez]

From "The Window in the West" in The Two Towers (Faramir is speaking to Frodo and Sam in Henneth Annun):

'And this I remember of Boromir as a boy, when we together learned the tale of our sires and the history of our city, that always it displeased him that his father was not king. "How many hundreds of years needs it to make a steward a king, if the king returns not?" he asked. "Few years, maybe, in other places of less royalty," my father answered. "In Gondor ten thousand years would not suffice." Alas! poor Boromir. Does that not tell you something of him?

[Snowdog]

Right... so if Faramir and Boromir had traded places, and Faramir was killed, what would be the confrontation be like between Boromir (Steward, after Denethor's death) and Aragorn?

[Michael Martinez]

I think that, had Boromir lived to accompany Aragorn on his journey, he would have accepted Aragorn's kingship without reservation.

[Attalus]

I agree. Boromir was no fool, and already impressed by Aragorn. He would see how important it would be for the rightful King to be back upon the throne.

[Lalaith]

Didn't Boromir say something like that to Aragorn before he died? Or am I confusing that with the movie?

Well, I also think that he would have accepted Aragorn as the king of Gondor.
But maybe his father would have influenced him ....

[Michael Martinez]

Boromir acknowledged Aragorn as his king in the movie. I think it was a reasonable "last words" speech, given that the movie history differs from the book history considerably.

However, in the book, Denethor was dead by the time the Battle of the Pelennor Fields had been completed. I think that, if Boromir had accompanied Aragorn through the Paths of the Dead (and I cannot see how Boromir would have abandoned the Fellowship, assuming he had not been mortally wounded at Parth Galen -- for all his faults, he was a loyal companion and a man of his word), he would have accepted the Stewardship of Gondor but would have realized that Aragon's leadership was necessary.

Sometimes, Boromir comes off as a weak and arrogant man. He certainly could say some harsh things (as when he mocked Gimli after the boats had been ported and Gimli was obviously nodding with exhaustion), but he wanted to do what was right and what was best for his people.

That was one of the two desires the Ring seems to have focused on in tempting him. I think the other one was his childhood desire to raise the Stewardship to a Kingship. By the end of his life, I think Boromir had completely accepted that he could never be king. The Ring simply found a weakness in his personality and exploited it.

Denethor cruelly ridiculed Faramir for wanting to appear lordly like the Dunedain of old. But I think he was speaking hypocritically out of the hurt and anger he felt over the realization that Faramir had trusted Gandalf's wisdom more than his own father's integrity (in releasing Frodo, Sam, and Gollum to continue their mission). I think both Boromir and Faramir carried themselves with as much dignity as "the kings of old" as any prince of a Dunadan realm would be expected to. I think both men felt in their souls that they had a rightful place in their society, and that they owed certain obligations to their people. One of those obligations was to be fair and just.

In a way, it would have diminished Boromir to recognize Aragorn as King. I think that would have diminished him because I think he would have struggled with inner turmoil. He would not have doubted Aragorn's claim or ability. He would, however, have to reconcile himself to the fact that he would not be Ruling Steward. Faramir found that reconciliation to be much easier because he was a younger son. That was an advantage he held over both his father and brother.

By redeeming himself against the Orcs at Parth Galen, and by sacrificing his own life in defense of Merry and Pippin, Boromir earned himself a far more glorious place in history than he would have had he simply lived on into old age, serving as Aragorn's important but nonetheless secondary (power beneath Aragorn) Steward. I think closing his life before Aragorn had stepped onto the main stage of Gondor's politics and history gave Boromir the kind of recognition he would have wanted, and which he really deserved.

Tolkien depicted Boromir as a strong, brave, courageous man who was willing to defy incredible odds (he didn't want to abandon Gandalf to the Balrog, for example, in Moria). He also depicted Boromir as a conflicted man, a proud man, a man with strong beliefs and emotions which eventually worked against him. Boromir was human like us and yet heroic in a way we seldom have the opportunity to be. He is a good example of how good men can go wrong.

But that is precisely why I think he would have accepted Aragorn's claim to the throne. He was a good man. He would have done what was right. And Aragorn would have proven himself regardless of whether Boromir lived or not.

[ethuiliel]

Boromir:
I think that he would not have enjoyed being steward, and under Aragorn, but he would have accepted it. He'd probably be jealous, and I wouldn't be surprised if it had some affects on their relationship, but he wouldn't try to take the king from Aragorn.

Faramir:
He never wanted the throne, and I think he's very happy as Steward of Gondor/Prince of Ithilien. That in itself is an honor, and a responsibility, but just the right amount. I don't think he'd accept the kingship unless he had to... but the same goes for Aragorn, actually. Someone needed to be a king, and to reunite Gondor and Arnor, and Aragorn was the only one with the lineage to do so.

[Beren3000]

Ethuiliel, I'm not talking about Faramir's wanting to become king. I'm asking why he wasn't made so by the people? As to lineage, Arvedui had the same lineage, where did that get him?

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Faramir could not have been king of Gondor, he was of the line of the Stewards and so he would have become a Steward like his father. Yet he could have attempted to userp the throne, but that doesn't sound like Faramir! Not to mention Aragorn Elessar is a great king on his own right so why place another!?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Faramir was just as exicted as all to see the Return of the King as all.

Return of the King. Houses of Healing.
'"Walk no more in the shadows, but awake!" said Aragorn. "Rest a while and take food, and be ready when I return"
"I, will lord," said Faramir. "For who would be idle when the king has returned?"

For all of Gondor (bar perhaps Denethor) would have eagarly seen the Return of the King. For even at his death bed Boromir acknowledged that it would be Aragorn who was destined to save Gondor.