What are Elves?

[Beren3000]

In the hierarchy of Tolkien's world, you'll first find Eru who is (obviously!) a parallel of God. Then come the Valar and the Maiar,angels (the difference between Valar and Maiar is like that between angels and archangels). Then you have men, hobbits and dwarves who are...well, the "regular" men and women in our world. But where does that leave elves?
Under what "class" can you put them?
I have read a theory once that they symbolise man's ideal state before the fall. But if that is so, why are they still around in the Third Age? And how does "the ideal state of man" fit into the Christian symbolism in LOTR?

If any information about that was mentioned in the HOME series, please excuse my ignorance as I haven't read HOME.
If not, can you post your own thoughts on the matter?

[Tatië]

I find it interesting that you would say hobbits and dwarves are, like Men, the regular people, but Elves are not. I gues their immortality is what makes them so different to us mortals.

I would say the only way that Elves could represent Unfallen Men is if Men were in fact originally immortal and bound to Arda as the elves are. Whether or not this is so could be a huge discussion in itself.

I would say that if Men shared the fate of the Elves up until the Fall, that Elves could be said to represent Unfallen Men. Or rather that Elves are the Unfallen Men. If Men were originally this way, they and elves would be one in the same, different only in exact time and place of Awakening. Finrod questions, why should Eru do THAT? In my opinion, how should we know what or why God would do?

But so long as Men were not originally bound to Arda, I see no way the elves represent them.

Given the mistery and question surrounding the nature of Unfallen Men in JRRT's legendarium, I'd say the Elendili are the best representations of Men Unfallen that we have for certain.

Sorry I don't know about Christian theology and all that, so I can't really compare or apply it Tolkien's myth.

[Beren3000]

Originally posted by Tatië

But so long as Men were not originally bound to Arda, I see no way the elves represent them.


You misunderstood me. The theory I read meant unfallen men as in humans of our world. IOW, elves symbolise the state of innocence man was in before sin.

Originally posted by Tatië

Given the mistery and question surrounding the nature of Unfallen Men in JRRT's legendarium, I'd say the Elendili are the best representations of Men Unfallen that we have for certain.


I wouldn't call the Elendili unfallen men. I think the name that best fits them is their own: the Faithful. They weren't exactly exempt from sin or faults. Yes they held on to their beliefs through great adversity, but they had their fair share of faults too (look how Isildur ended up, for instance)

Welcome to the moot:D (wow, I finally get to say that to someone!)

[Tatië]

Yes, I should have said the Faithful are the closest thing to a representation.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Perhaps these excerpts from The Letters Of J.R.R. Tolkien
are of some use.
Letter # 156:
"The High Elves were exiles from the Blessed Realm of the Gods [Valar/angels] (after their own particular Elvish fall"

Letter #181:
"Of course, in fact exterior to my story, Elves and Men are just different aspects of the Humane, and represent the problem of Death as seen by a finite but willing and self-conscious person. In this mythological world the Elves and Men are in their incarnate forms kindred, but in the relation of their 'spirits' to the world in time represent different 'experiments', each of which has its own natural trend, and weakness. The Elves repreent, as it were, the artistic, aesthetic, and purely scientific aspects of the Humane nature raised to a higher level than is actually seen in Men. That is: they have a devoted love of the physical world, and a desire to observe and understand it for its own sake and 'other'- sc. as a reality derived from God in the same degree as themselves- not as a material for use or as a power-platform. They also possess a 'subcreational' or artistic faculty of great excellence. They are therefore 'immortal'. Not 'eternally' but to endure with and within the created world, while its story lasts. When 'killed', by the injury or destruction of their incarnate form, they do not escape from time, but remain in the world, either discarnate, or being re-born. This becomes a great burden as the ages lengthen, especially in a world where there is malice and destruction.....The Elvish weakness is...naturally to regret the past, and to become unwilling to face change; as if a man were to hate a very long book still going on, and wished to settle down in a favourite chapter. Hence they fell in a measure to Sauron's deceits: they desired some 'power' over things as they are (which is quite distinct from art), to make their particular will to preservation effective: to arrest change, and keep things always fresh and fair."

The above leading to Celebrimbor's making of, especially, the Three Rings.