Men & Elves dwelling together.

[Tatië]

There is a passage always makes me curious.


From Chapter 17:
But after a time the Elf-kings, seeing that it was not good for Elves and Men to dwell mingled together without order, and that Men needed lords of their own kind, set regions apart where Men could live their own lives, and appointed chieftains to hold these lands freely. They were allies of the Eldar in war, but marched under their own leaders. Yet many of the Edain had delight in the friendship of the Elves, and dwelt among them for so long as they had leave; and the young men often took service for a time in the hosts of the kings,

I wonder what exactly they saw that made them decide it was not good to live mingled. Was it just far sight of the Elven-kings that trouble might come eventually? And if so, what troubles might they have forseen?

But the passage gives me the impression the elves saw the beginnings of trouble arising from the situation. I wonder if this is so, but what might it have been? Did the elves notice anything that maybe could have been a warning about what would happen with Numenor, men growing envious of immortality? I do wonder about all of this.

Or could it have been something as innocent as the fact that some aspects of the peoples' culture would be dependant upon whether or not the people are mortals, and because of this Men and Elves could never share a culture, something required to really mingle?

[Beor]

I dont know what their reasons were, but I think your last point is probably pretty close. There had to be a lot of cultural differences, on every level, for the simple fact that men die. Probably didnt want too many elf chicks falling in love with man dudes and vice versa, because that would mess everything up. Probably a culture thing, plus, maybe men are better ruled by their own kind anyway.

[Sister Golden Hair]

It seems like more of a choice that the Eldar gave Men, than it does a requirement that they dwell seperately. Afterall, there were great differences between the two kindreds as far as fate, doom, and mortality. I get the impression that the Elves believed that Men should live in a more ordered society, independently under their own governments, and develope their own cultures outside of the Eldar. However, if they chose to remain among the Eldar, they were given leave to do so.

[Beor]

Oh, you want to have an intelligent conversation. Okay, well, I should go...;) :p

Yeah, but I am sure that the idea arose because they were having a few problems. The men probably kept getting drunk and unruly, and the elves, being quite lofty, couldnt handle it. Men are the superior race.

Anyway, that is a good point, but do you think it was entirely a choice? Say the men had decided that they didnt want to rule themselves, would the elves have been accepting of this?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Beor
Oh, you want to have an intelligent conversation. Okay, well, I should go...;) :p

Yeah, but I am sure that the idea arose because they were having a few problems. The men probably kept getting drunk and unruly, and the elves, being quite lofty, couldnt handle it. Men are the superior race.

Anyway, that is a good point, but do you think it was entirely a choice? Say the men had decided that they didnt want to rule themselves, would the elves have been accepting of this? I think that the quote itself indicates that it was a choice, and that most Men did choose to dwell seperately from the Eldar, but if they wanted to stay, they could. Let's take your namesake as and example:

From the published Silmarillion, Houghton Mifflon edition, 1977.

The years of the Edain were lengthened, according to the reckoning of Men, after their coming to Beleriand; but at last Beor the Old died when he had lived three and ninety years, for four and forty of which he had served King Felagund. And when he lay dead, of no wound or grief, the Eldar saw for the first time the swift waning of the life of Men, and the death of weariness which they knew not in themselves; and they grieved greatly for the loss of their friends. But Beor at the last had relinquished his life willingly and passed in peace; and the Eldar wondered much at the strange fate of Men, for in all their lore there was no account of it, and its end was hidden from them. This death that the Eldar see for the first time must have been very traumatic and grievous to them, and grief was a very dangerous thing for an Elf. And although I don't think the Elves forced Men to live seperatly from them, I think they made it possible for them to, for the sakes of both kindreds.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Beor
Oh, you want to have an intelligent conversation. Okay, well, I should go...;) :p


Nah! We'd MUCH rather have you around than have an intelligent conversation! :p ;) (take that as a compliment... back-handed as it is)

Besides, I think you're onto something about the 'elf chick' thing. And kind of a nice, Elvish way of putting into their words what we might express as, "There goes the neighborhood!" ;)

[Beor]

Originally posted by Valandil, the High King at Annuminas
Besides, I think you're onto something about the 'elf chick' thing. And kind of a nice, Elvish way of putting into their words what we might express as, "There goes the neighborhood!"
Yeah, that is what I was trying to get at. Like Sister Golden Hair said, the grief of the elves at the early death of men must have caused quite a bit of grief, (from reading the Athrabeth, hehehehehhehehehehehehe), because elves are less hasty to do stuff, and the seventy or eighty years they would have to know a man wouldnt be much to them, like when I make a friend at one unit and have to move on to the next in three years, and never see my friend again (ecxcept maybe by chance, which does happen). IN addition to that, Tolkien describes that men are quicker to laughter and to anger, sort of volitale compared to elves. It would be interesting to see what would happen in a bar when a bunch of dudes got into a barfight over something stupid (which is often the case).

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Tatië
Did the elves notice anything that maybe could have been a warning about what would happen with Numenor, men growing envious of immortality? I do wonder about all of this.

Or could it have been something as innocent as the fact that some aspects of the peoples' culture would be dependant upon whether or not the people are mortals, and because of this Men and Elves could never share a culture, something required to really mingle? Would the Edain grow envious of immortality if they lived among Elves? I don't think so. Mortality was a gift. Beor lived among the Elves for many years, and he passed away in peace. If envy would grow, it would have happened regardless of the level of mingling.

I think the reason for the division between the two kindreds was the great cultural differences, as a result of different fates. They made friendships and alliances, but I wonder if the Elves had kept themselves more separated if it wasn't for the common enemy, Morgoth. It must have been very difficult for them to understand each other, and it seems to me that the Edain were more interested in learning the habits and lore of the Elves, than the other way around.

[Tatië]

Posted by Beor
It would be interesting to see what would happen in a bar when a bunch of dudes got into a barfight over something stupid (which is often the case).

Hehe! But I don't know... I can imagine a variety of reactions from different elves. Take someone like Maedhros as compared to Gildor Inglorion. Or how about some drunken woodelf butler? :p

As for Men deciding they do not want to rule themselves? I really can't imagine this.

But love between mortals and immortals could be a dangerous thing. This at least happened once in Dorthonion.

Sister Golden Hair,

The grief the elves feel for the swift passing of Men is something I hadn't considered as a factor. Am affraid I was taking the self-centered mannish point of view here. It could be the grief was more the elves needed to see so often.


I have interpreted "Yet many of the Edain had delight in the friendship of the Elves, and dwelt among them for so long as they had leave..." as the Men having to reluctantly leave the company of the Elves. But it doesn't have to be this way. I also got the same idea from the statement about Men being in service of the Kings for some time. But it could well be that most Men did not wish to stay in service of Elven-Kings.


Artanis,

While I do not think there was any dangerous envy of immortality yet, I am not sure I agree that this could not happen if Men are living among the elves. I have this opinion when taking into consideration the causes of the Numenorean's envy. Really their life was so great and accomplishments so much that they hungered for more time in the world. While that doesn't prove this dread of death could happen to Men living among elves, I do not see how having elves around could prevent it in all cases. In fact I can imagine how being around elves might contribute to envy.

The effects Tolkien describes that dwelling in Aman would have on a mortal, specificly that he would seem to pass extremely fast, might also hold true for Men among the elves who age so slow that a mortal wouldn't perceive it over a lifetime.

I think the major factor at this point in time which was probably on the minds of the elves is the differences in culture and custom that could not be overcome since the two people are so different. Different ways of looking at the world, different minds, and wholy different motives in life.

Thanks for the thoughts everyone.

[Earniel]

I think the difference in fates between Elves and Men must have caused many substantial differences in culture aswell as in mind. Despite the similarities between them (and the fact that they could breed together), they were IMO not meant to live together as one community.

A middle road between the two cultures, like the Numenorean civilisation, is possible but we all know how one imbalance could send the whole island crashing down in no time.

If Men and Elves would have lived together, in one community, I think the light, wisdom and beauty of the Elves would have gotten the upper hand. I think the Men would have been overwhelmed and would in the long run have become - or tried to become - a sort of second-rate Elves. That would have been a sad thing, even the Elves would have considered it so. This was never the destiny of Men; they had to be able to shape their own destiny, and for that they would have needed a measure of independance.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Tatië
Artanis,

While I do not think there was any dangerous envy of immortality yet, I am not sure I agree that this could not happen if Men are living among the elves. I have this opinion when taking into consideration the causes of the Numenorean's envy. Really their life was so great and accomplishments so much that they hungered for more time in the world. While that doesn't prove this dread of death could happen to Men living among elves, I do not see how having elves around could prevent it in all cases. In fact I can imagine how being around elves might contribute to envy. I'm not saying that envy would never occur, but I think the cases would be few. Though I can imagine Men could become envious of the lack of sickness among the Elves, and their great ability to be healed from wounds. I'd say that for Men, life was harder and the causes of grief would come more often, and death would come as a relief. It was different in Númenór, where there was no sickness among people, and life was in general blissful. And the Númenoreans were under influence of Sauron.

The effects Tolkien describes that dwelling in Aman would have on a mortal, specificly that he would seem to pass extremely fast, might also hold true for Men among the elves who age so slow that a mortal wouldn't perceive it over a lifetime.Yes, but in Aman Men would be different from everything else, they would be abnormal, surrounded by seemingly eternal life. In Middle-Earth it is the Elves who are different. Life in M-E is swiftly passing for all living creatures, except for the Elves, and this is a grief to them.

[Lefty Scaevola]

The Athrabeth (sp) indicates that each had great difficulty understanding the fundamental nature of the others condition.

[Arien the Maia]

personally, I feel that neither one is greatwer than the other. But in response to the topic; Men and Elves probably should n't dwell so close to each other b/c they are each envious of each others's gifts even if hte Elves don't admit it:evil: ;)

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
The Athrabeth (sp) indicates that each had great difficulty understanding the fundamental nature of the others condition. Very true, and their separation did not help. Did the Elves ever really try to understand the ways of Men? I think not, except in rare cases as Finrod. My impression is that Elves looked upon Men as lower beings, children who needed to be taught, who could be loved maybe but from a superior position. Thingol displayed this attitude in its purest form, and he wasn't even of Aman! And the people followed their leaders. To Maedhros, the Edain were just useful allies against Morgoth. Caranthir didn't bother to care about Men until he discovered that they were valiant warriors.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

I think it is the same reason that Men are not permitd to go to Valinor. If men were to dwel with the elves they would eventualy desire the immortality. They would see their fathers and sons die while elves lived on, it would cause discention(spelling?). I don't think it was a choice so much as a fact of life(and a fact of imortal life)

[Elvellon]

I think that the quote itself indicates that it was a choice, and that most Men did choose to dwell seperately from the Eldar, but if they wanted to stay, they could. Let's take your namesake as and example:

From the published Silmarillion, Houghton Mifflon edition, 1977.

This death that the Eldar see for the first time must have been very traumatic and grievous to them, and grief was a very dangerous thing for an Elf. And although I don't think the Elves forced Men to live seperatly from them, I think they made it possible for them to, for the sakes of both kindreds.

Nods.
I believe it was likely mutual .Men would have to endure the ageless grace of the Eldar as their love ones and they themselves would age and eventually die. Even to the most understanding of persons that would bring a feeling of injustice and unhappiness, I would guess. Even to those wise enough not to feel an unjust animosity against the Eldar.

And to Elves, this Humans, that were so akin to them, with whom they could built friendships and love were so short lived, that to live with them was to live with the constant pain of the lost, as they passed away in an unsmilingly without end chain of birth and death.

[ItalianLegolas]

maybe it was jealousy, i mean, generations of men go by, and you still have the same old elves, still alive

[Twista]

To add to this, heres another question; Do you think there was a degree of racism between them?

[Sister Golden Hair]

To add to this, heres another question; Do you think there was a degree of racism between them?Thingol was a perfect example of being a racist I think.

[Elemmírë]

Thingol was a perfect example of being a racist I think.

I definitely agree; and I seriously doubt he was the only one.

Twista, in the Athrabeth, Andreth comments about humans, to the Elves, being creatures "to be loved a little maybe, and yet creatures of less worth, upon whom ye may look down from the height of your power and your knowledge, with a smile, or with pity, or with a shaking of heads."

And Finrod answers, "Alas, you speak near the truth. At least of many of my people; but not of all, and certainly not of me."

So apparently quite a few besides Thingol were rather racist.

[Twista]

I see, thank you for explaining that to me buddy! :)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Thingol was a perfect example of being a racist I think.
Elrond was in the same way as Thingol. Only allowing Arwen to marry a human if they were the King of Gondor and Arnor.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Elrond was in the same way as Thingol. Only allowing Arwen to marry a human if they were the King of Gondor and Arnor.That's true, as Thingol mellowed with Beren after the Quest of the Silmaril. He also cared for Turin and Morwen. It remains that in the beginning though, that he was still racist toward Men.

[Elemmírë]

That's true, as Thingol mellowed with Beren after the Quest of the Silmaril. He also cared for Turin and Morwen. It remains that in the beginning though, that he was still racist toward Men.

Reminds me of some of the Fëanorions, actually. I don't feel like searching for the quote right now, but I remember Caranthir taking note and recognising the strengths of Men too late...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

You have to remember that not all elves were racist though. Finrod was the first elf to make contact with Men. Fingolfin and Fingon took the Men of Dor-Lormin into his service. Turgon allowed Húrin and Hior to enter and leave Gondolin (even though that the entering and leving was courtesy of the eagles). Elladan and Elrohir were often abroad with the Dunedain. There are many cases similar to this.

[Elemmírë]

You have to remember that not all elves were racist though. Finrod was the first elf to make contact with Men. Fingolfin and Fingon took the Men of Dor-Lormin into his service. Turgon allowed Húrin and Hior to enter and leave Gondolin (even though that the entering and leving was courtesy of the eagles). Elladan and Elrohir were often abroad with the Dunedain. There are many cases similar to this.

Of course not all were. I was reluctant to mention Finrod myself, though... :p Turgon was also an exception, but I wouldn't claim Elladan and Elrohir, who technically speaking weren't Elves themselves.