The Lay of the Children of Hurin and Greek tragedy

[Beren3000]

I don't know if there was an old thread pertaining to this subject (I'm new to the Moot) but have you ever heard of Oedipus Rex, a Greek tragedy play by Sophocles?

It tells of this man Oedipus who was foretold to kill his father and marry his mother. So his father sends him away while he's a baby. Of course he ends up (not knowing) killing his REAL father and marrying his mother. Now when he finds out, his mother kills herself and he puts his eyes out. The play has a sequel (Antigone) that talks about Oedipus's daughter who goes out on a limb to ensure a proper burial for her brother who died in battle. Failing to do this, she kills herself.

Doesn't this sound vaguely similar to the tale of Turin and his sister? What do you think?

[Jonathan]

It sure does. Surely Tolkien had Oedipus in mind when coming up with the story about Túrin. However there are many stories similar to the one about Oedipus. I don’t think Tolkien stole that many ideas from Greek plays and myth when he created his universe. He was probably more interested in myths and folktales from other regions than Greece and that there is more from Celtic, Saxon and Norse myth in his stories.

When writing about Túrin, Tolkien was probably quite inspired by the Finnish national epic Kalevala (he was very found of the Finnish language and its poetry). In Kalevala, there is a story about the boy Kullervo who seduces a girl who turns out to be his sister. Just like Niniel, the girl throws herself into a river when she finds out who Kullervo really is. Eventually Kullervo takes his life too.

Some elements in the story about Túrin are also likely to be derived from the Icelandic 'Saga of the Volsungs', where Sigurd fights and kills the dragon Fafner and at the end, Sigurd stabs himself with his sword.


Welcome to the Moot, Beren3000!

[Beren3000]

Thanks for your welcome.

I've read a lot about the Kalevala (sp.?) and the Finnish influence on Tolkien's work in general. But have you actually read the Kalevala or that tale of Sigurd? If so where did you find them?

[Jonathan]

I have only read extracts from both works. I'm sure you can find some extracts if you do a search on Google.

[Stephen]

kalevala stuff (http://www.finlit.fi/kalevala/indexeng.html)

kalevala text (http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/kveng/index.htm)

[Maedhros]

I'm a big fan of the greek mythos. This is a post that I did on another forum a long time ago.
like in this story Layo and Oedipus, both try to "twist" their fate and avoid the predicted path and finally, by doing this, they actually fulfill the predictions.
I would say that only Laius tried to twist his fate more than Oedipus.
From Oedipus Rex:
To Laius, King of Thebes, an oracle foretold that the child born to him by his queen Jocasta would slay his father and wed his mother.
So when in time a son was born the infant's feet were riveted together
and he was left to die on Mount Cithaeron. But a shepherd found the
babe and tended him, and delivered him to another shepherd who took
him to his master, the King or Corinth.
Afterwards doubting his parentage he inquired of the Delphic god
and heard himself the weird declared before to Laius. Wherefore he
fled from what he deemed his father's house and in his flight he
encountered and unwillingly slew his father Laius. Arriving at Thebes
he answered the riddle of the Sphinx and the grateful Thebans made
their deliverer king. So he reigned in the room of Laius, and
espoused the widowed queen.
Lauis knew about his son, but Oedipus didn't knew that his father was Laius.
In a way Oedipus is innocent because he is taken by "fate". He was a hero to the people of Thebes because he solved the riddle of the Sphinx.
There was a "plague" in Thebes an Oedipus as King send Creon to investigate what could help the city. When Creon returns he says to Oedipus:
Let me report then all the god declared.
King Phoebus bids us straitly extirpate
A fell pollution that infests the land,
And no more harbor an inveterate sore.
This referst to a person who has done terrible deeds. Oedipus.
Like Túrin, it was Oedipus pride that doomed him, but as we shall see, he was already doomed.
This is what the sage Teiresias told the King Oedipus:
Is it so? Then I charge thee to abide
By thine own proclamation; from this day
Speak not to these or me. Thou art the man,
Thou the accursed polluter of this land.
I say thou livest with thy nearest kin
In infamy, unwitting in thy shame.

He was married with his mother without really knowing about it.
This is what the Oracle told Oedipus:
Aye, 'tis no secret. Loxias once foretold
That I should mate with mine own mother, and shed
With my own hands the blood of my own sire.
Hence Corinth was for many a year to me
A home distant; and I trove abroad,
But missed the sweetest sight, my parents' face.
And then when a servant tell Oedipus that he is not the Son of the King of Corinth:
Know that he took thee from my hands, a gift.
Again Oedipus pride:
Let the storm burst, my fixed resolve still holds,
To learn my lineage, be it ne'er so low.
It may be she with all a woman's pride
Thinks scorn of my base parentage. But I
Who rank myself as Fortune's favorite child,
The giver of good gifts, shall not be shamed.
She is my mother and the changing moons
My brethren, and with them I wax and wane.
Thus sprung why should I fear to trace my birth?
Nothing can make me other than I am.
Is it so wrong to desire to know who you really are?
When Oedipus finally learns the truth:
Then had I never come to shed
My father's blood nor climbed my mother's bed;
The monstrous offspring of a womb defiled,
Co-mate of him who gendered me, and child.
Was ever man before afflicted thus,
Like Oedipus.
And in the end.
Look ye, countrymen and Thebans, this is Oedipus the great,
He who knew the Sphinx's riddle and was mightiest in our state.
Who of all our townsmen gazed not on his fame with envious eyes?
Now, in what a sea of troubles sunk and overwhelmed he lies!
Therefore wait to see life's ending ere thou count one mortal blest;
Wait till free from pain and sorrow he has gained his final rest.
Isn't this very similar to the tale of Túrin.

[Beren3000]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Like Túrin, it was Oedipus pride that doomed him

Actually, I think this is debatable. I think that Turin's pride didn't directly contribute to his doom. I think that his pride was rather a product of the curse. IOW had Morgoth not cursed Hurin and his children, I think that Turin wouldn't have been so proud.

[Maedhros]

Actually, I think this is debatable. I think that Turin's pride didn't directly contribute to his doom. I think that his pride was rather a product of the curse. IOW had Morgoth not cursed Hurin and his children, I think that Turin wouldn't have been so proud.
Húrin's family was proudful even before the curse of Morgoth. I don't think that you can point to Morgoth into making them proud.

[Falagar]

But then, his pride wouldn't have had that much effect without Morgoth's curse.

[Beren3000]

Exactly!

[Sister Golden Hair]

You would have to atribute some of the events that take place with Turin to free will though. So, I don't think that everything bad that happened to him accounts to the curse, but some prideful, bad decisions. For instance: leaving Doriath after the death of Saeros, influencing Orodreth to change Finrod's defensive policies and fight more openly by building the bridge over the Narog, which became Nargothrond's certian doom. I think we see the effects of the curse in things that were more out of Turin's control, such as: killing Beleg, meeting Gwindor and being brought to Nargothrond, the marriage between him and Nienor, his failure to save Finduilus. However, without Turin's prideful choices, and the curse of Morgoth coming together, events would have turned out differently. They seem to have fed one another.

[Beren3000]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
They seem to have fed one another.

Interesting point!

[Maedhros]

From the Published Silmarillion
But to the Atani I will give a new gift.' Therefore to willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.
But then, his pride wouldn't have had that much effect without Morgoth's curse.
Túrin had the power to defeat the Curse, remember that the gift of Ilúvatar is greater than a curse of Morgoth.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Túrin had the power to defeat the Curse, remember that the gift of Ilúvatar is greater than a curse of Morgoth. Well, that may have been true at some point, but remember that the Gift of Iluvatar had been tainted, supposedly by Morgoth before the Edain had entered into Beleriand, by listening to the second voice, according to the Tale of Adanel.

[Maedhros]

Well, that may have been true at some point, but remember that the Gift of Iluvatar had been tainted, supposedly by Morgoth before the Edain had entered into Beleriand, by listening to the second voice, according to the Tale of Adanel.
From Morgoth's Ring: The Tale of Adanel
The first Voice we never heard again, save once. In the stillness of the night It spoke, saying: 'Ye have abjured Me, but ye remain Mine. I gave you life. Now it shall be shortened, and each of you in a little while shall come to Me, to learn who is your Lord: the one ye worship, or I who made him.'
In no part it says that the gift that he gave to men was tainted, rather their original lifespans were shortened.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros
From Morgoth's Ring: The Tale of Adanel

In no part it says that the gift that he gave to men was tainted, rather their original lifespans were shortened. Without useing the word "tainted" though, I believe that Andreth says as much to Finrod in the Athrabeth, that death is not a gift, or that they (the Edain) did not see it as one.

[Maedhros]

Without useing the word "tainted" though, I believe that Andreth says as much to Finrod in the Athrabeth, that death is not a gift, or that they (the Edain) did not see it as one.
Even if Men didn't see death as a gift, it was one nonetheless, and the ability that Men had to shape their own fate remained there.

[Beren3000]

But, Maedhros, in all the history of ME, a lot of people suffered hardships. You find Beren having to face Morgoth, Aragorn having to face Sauron and Frodo carries the Ring etc...But eventually, Illuvatar creates some sort of reward for them. Beren finds Luthien after death, Aragorn marries Arwen and Frodo sails to Valinor. But what's Turin's reward? He NEVER experienced happiness in his life (except with Nienor, which eventually aggravated his misery). Do you think that Illuvatar wouldn't have pitied him?
IMO, his life was all ruined by the curse (Or rather by the simultaneous actions of the curse and his pride as SGH pointed out). His free will had very little part to play in that, if at all.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Even if Men didn't see death as a gift, it was one nonetheless, and the ability that Men had to shape their own fate remained there. True, but nevertheless, the fact that they had listened to the second voice, tainted the gift in their minds, and they now feared death.

[Maedhros]

True, but nevertheless, the fact that they had listened to the second voice, tainted the gift in their minds, and they now feared death.
They might fear or despise death, but nevertheless the ability to shape their own future was never taken away from them, and that had nothing to do with fearing or despising death.

IMO, his life was all ruined by the curse (Or rather by the simultaneous actions of the curse and his pride as SGH pointed out). His free will had very little part to play in that, if at all.
Free will it is an interesting thing really.
1. Túrin could have returned to Doriath but he chose not to.
2. Túrin could have kept his visor when he faced Glaurung but he didn't and therefore was defeated by him.

Túrin could have chose differently but he didn't. If Morgoth could control so easily Men, why didn't he curse more of them? He could have cursed those who rebelled against him, but he didn't.

But, Maedhros, in all the history of ME, a lot of people suffered hardships. You find Beren having to face Morgoth, Aragorn having to face Sauron and Frodo carries the Ring etc...But eventually, Illuvatar creates some sort of reward for them. Beren finds Luthien after death, Aragorn marries Arwen and Frodo sails to Valinor. But what's Turin's reward? He NEVER experienced happiness in his life (except with Nienor, which eventually aggravated his misery). Do you think that Illuvatar wouldn't have pitied him?
How do we know of the rewards that Men might have after the end of their lives outside of Arda? My guess is that Túrin is not alone either, and that there were other men in the service of Morgoth that were slaves all of their lives. At least Túrin had a chance.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Two principal themes of breek tragedy, hubirs and a fall from an exalted condition are show twice (and more) in Turin, in the episode in Doriath, and in Nargothrond.

[Beren3000]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Túrin could have chose differently but he didn't. If Morgoth could control so easily Men, why didn't he curse more of them? He could have cursed those who rebelled against him, but he didn't.

Exactly! Why didn't he choose differently? Because he was influneced by the curse. And you ask why Morgoth didn't curse other people? How do you know it was easy for him to curse Hurin's family? Maybe it was very difficult and he only did it out of spite and the desire to see Hurin suffer.

Originally posted by Maedhros
How do we know of the rewards that Men might have after the end of their lives outside of Arda? My guess is that Túrin is not alone either, and that there were other men in the service of Morgoth that were slaves all of their lives. At least Túrin had a chance.

As to the rewards after Arda, I never questioned that. Turin would be rewarded in the after life. But why did he suffer so on ME? It's sort of like the biblical story of Job. Satan cursed him out of spite. So he suffered terrible misery. The only difference is that Job held on to his faith while Turin didn't. So curses are only effective on earth. When it comes to the after-life, Morgoth's curse wouldn't folow Turin there.
About slaves who spent their lives serving Morgoth:
These were taken as prisoners in a war, but when you're contemplating a man who is apparently "free" you wonder why he suffers so much...

I hope I made some sense up there (it's 12:45 a.m. here):(

[Sister Golden Hair]

If Morgoth could control so easily Men, why didn't he curse more of them? He could have cursed those who rebelled against him, but he didn't.Well, here we are inserting either minor or non existing characters in the story. We don't know how many other Men he cursed, if any. But we must remember that Hurin was a main character and enemy of Morgoth along with Huor in the Nirnaith. Morgoth probably could have cared less about Hurin or his kin, but more about finding the location of Gondolin. The curse of allowing Hurin to live 20 some odd years in captivity and see the events happening to his family through Morgoth's eyes seemed to be an ineffective intimidation tactic on Morgoth's part. However, with a little help from his servants and their influence, and a combination of Turin's prideful bad choices, the curse was effective in the end upon Hurin's release. By him calling out to Turgon in the proximatey of Gondolin and in ear shot of enemy spies, Hurin provided Morgoth with the very thing he sought all the years of his captivity, and Gondolin was found.

[Maedhros]

Exactly! Why didn't he choose differently? Because he was influneced by the curse. And you ask why Morgoth didn't curse other people? How do you know it was easy for him to curse Hurin's family? Maybe it was very difficult and he only did it out of spite and the desire to see Hurin suffer.
Túrin has to take responsability for his actions. Túrin is not a puppet. If it was so easy for Morgoth to control him then why would he allow Túrin to kill Glaurung?
The curse of allowing Hurin to live 20 some odd years in captivity and see the events happening to his family through Morgoth's eyes seemed to be an ineffective intimidation tactic on Morgoth's part. However, with a little help from his servants and their influence, and a combination of Turin's prideful bad choices, the curse was effective in the end upon Hurin's release. By him calling out to Turgon in the proximatey of Gondolin and in ear shot of enemy spies, Hurin provided Morgoth with the very thing he sought all the years of his captivity, and Gondolin was found.
Gondolin was found because of Maeglin. If Morgoth knew of the location of Gondolin, why did he wait for the capture of Maeglin? And the curse was not fulfilled in it's entirety. Morwen waited for Húrin to return. If she had lost all hope she would have not waited for her husband.

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Túrin has to take responsability for his actions. Túrin is not a puppet. If it was so easy for Morgoth to control him then why would he allow Túrin to kill Glaurung?
He was not a puppet, no, but I believe the curse did affect of his judgement, in some ways. Are you suggesting that the curse of Morgoth, the mightiest creature within Arda, didn't have any effect upon Túrin's fate?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Túrin has to take responsability for his actions. Túrin is not a puppet. If it was so easy for Morgoth to control him then why would he allow Túrin to kill Glaurung?I would say at that point, that Glaurung had served his purpose.

[Beren3000]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair:
Glaurung had served his purpose.
Can't agree with you there. There was war raging on in Beleriand; surely Morgoth would still find some use to Glaurung beyond dooming Hurin's family.

Originally posted by Maedhros:
If it was so easy for Morgoth to control him then why would he allow Túrin to kill Glaurung?

I would remind you that killing Glaurung delivered the final blow that sealed the fates of Turin and Nienor. Only while dying did Glaurung lift the spell off their minds so that they knew who they were and each of them eventually committed suicide. So Morgoth allowed Glaurung to be killed in order to give Turin the KO

[Maedhros]

He was not a puppet, no, but I believe the curse did affect of his judgement, in some ways. Are you suggesting that the curse of Morgoth, the mightiest creature within Arda, didn't have any effect upon Túrin's fate?
To answer a question with a question:
Are you suggesting that the gift of Ilúvatar to men to shape their own fates could be altered by Morgoth?
I would remind you that killing Glaurung delivered the final blow that sealed the fates of Turin and Nienor. Only while dying did Glaurung lift the spell off their minds so that they knew who they were and each of them eventually committed suicide. So Morgoth allowed Glaurung to be killed in order to give Turin the KO
There were other ways to achieve that purpose without the demise of Glaurung, the Foalókë. I'm sure that:
Morgoth would still find some use to Glaurung beyond dooming Hurin's family.

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Maedhros
To answer a question with a question:
Are you suggesting that the gift of Ilúvatar to men to shape their own fates could be altered by Morgoth?
Nope but I'm suggesting he could cloud people's judgement or make them see only the worst sides of matters.

[Beren3000]

Originally posted by Maedhros
There were other ways to achieve that purpose without the demise of Glaurung

What other ways do you suggest? Morgoth couldn't exactly communicate with Glaurung and tell him to undo his memory spell. And there wasn't really any birth marks on either Turin or Nienor's bodies to help them recognize one another.

As to Morgoth having more purpose for Glaurung, I don't doubt it (after all, I posted it :p) but I think that he saw Turin's doom important enough to sacrifice Glaurung's life. Want proof of this importance? Morgoth went out of his way to punish Hurin and curse his family while he was busy with a full-scale war that threatened him.

Originally posted by Falagar
Nope but I'm suggesting he could cloud people's judgement or make them see only the worst sides of matters.


I agree. In fact this fits with the Christian doctrine and shows its influence on Tolkien's work. In Christianity, Satan can cloud other poeple's judgement and influence their perception. This occured also in the Third Age when Sauron showed Denethor huge orc armies through the Palantir, which led Denethor to madness and suicide in the end.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

You find Beren having to face Morgoth, Aragorn having to face Sauron and Frodo carries the Ring etc...

Yes some people have faced Morgoth or Sauron and come out with success but others didn't. Both Isildur and Boromir were corrupted by the Ring and the Nazgûl were once great kings of Men corrupted by Sauron. These people weren't bad people just, as most men, easily corrupted and overruled and they have made some mistakes. Turin was a good man with good intentions just to easil overruled