Magicians

[Yodaman]

In Decipher's RPG book, there is a class you can make your character, and it's called 'Magician'. They are supossedly just normal people who are trained by one of the five wizards and can do minor spells and stuff. Did they say anythinga bout it in the books? Is it even possible?

[mithrand1r]

Originally posted by Yodaman
In Decipher's RPG book, there is a class you can make your character, and it's called 'Magician'. They are supossedly just normal people who are trained by one of the five wizards and can do minor spells and stuff. Did they say anythinga bout it in the books? Is it even possible?

To my knowledge, I do not recall anything about a magician being described in LOTR.

Originally posted by Yodaman Is it even possible?

If by "it" you mean a magician being available in the RPG, I do not know.

[Yodaman]

What if someone like Saruman, Gandalf, Radghast, or the Blue Wizards trained them? I know it's unlikely, but it's just a What If question.

[Twista]

How could they be trained? The isatari are power 'beings', thats were there power comes from...

How can they teach someone to do something thats impossible for them to do? lol

[azalea]

Saruman trained Wormtongue, although it would have been impossible for him to have the same kind of power as Saruman (inherent vs. learned).

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by azalea
Saruman trained Wormtongue, although it would have been impossible for him to have the same kind of power as Saruman (inherent vs. learned). Did he? I don't remember well, but I think it was a posion of some sort...?

I don't think it's possible for a man to learn 'magic'. Like Twista said, Istari are actually Maiar and therefore has power... Elves have some power as well, it seems. when Finrod faught Sauron for example. But I don't think there's a mention of men doing magic.

[Yodaman]

How about simple spells, light lighting a fire or making water come out of your staff or something like that, not like enslave a beast or something like that

[azalea]

Well, doesn't it imply that he was under Saruman's tutilage, at least in terms of using words to lull into submission in a way?

Also, you might say that Aragorn was under Gandalf's tutilage, or at least that of the elves re: his "healing touch" in RotK.

None of it amounts to "magic" in the classic sense though, perhaps just application of a greater knowlege.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

I believe Aragorn's healing touch dreives from his Numenorean, and eventually elvish and Melian ancestry, as well as being the legitimate king.

While the istari, as Maiar, were obviously seperate from Middle-earth dwellers, there is a hint that they could have in some way passed on elements of their knowledge, i.e. JRRT's 1958 speculation that the Blue Wizards may have founded secret cults and "magic" traditions. So perhaps Sauman could have delegated minor "magic" abilities to Wormtongue.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Yodaman
How about simple spells, light lighting a fire or making water come out of your staff or something like that, not like enslave a beast or something like that

I don't know to what extent. In Tolkien's world, most 'magic' is just an expression of the nature of the user, not some ability or skill they have gained or learned. The Istari and Elves were able to do what they did because of what they were... not from study and practice. Same with the Numenoreans to a limited extent. There DO seem to be some things outside of this and some references to 'magic-use' by men. Off the top of my head, here's what I can think of:

* I believe the Nine were referred to as 'great warriors and sorcerers' or something like that.
* Certain groups of men were referred to as 'practicing the black arts'... I think those of Angmar, maybe some of the ones who followed Sauron in the south and east (??).
* 'The Mouth of Sauron' - I think there's a reference to him learning some magic from Sauron.
* The 'swords' from the Barrow Downs were 'magic' in a sense - that they were effective in fighting evil creatures. IIRC, there's reference to them being made to battle Angmar - which would imply they were made in either Arthedain and Cardolan - long after the time of Numenor itself or even Arnor. Interesting, since so much ancient knowledge was 'lost' as time went by.

I every case I can think of except the swords made by the men of Westernesse to combat Angmar, and the healing touch of Aragorn, which was mentioned earlier, the implication I get from Tolkien is that men who were studying and practicing these things were going 'out of bounds' and doing what they should not be doing. In those cases, there were evil consequences to their improper actions.

It's probably what you expect in a RPG (to study and accumulate knowledge and ability in spell casting), but as far as Tolkien's Middle-earth itself, I think the use of 'magic' was intrinsically a part of the practitioner. For one who did not have that ability naturally, to seek to acquire it was courting evil.

[afro-elf]

Tolkien mentions in one his letters that Beorn was a" a bit of a magician".

If you do a search there are a number of threads that deal with this.