Was Saruman a Ring-bearer?

[Valandil]

While scanning pages, I noticed something I didn't remember from before. At the Council of Elrond, when Gandalf is recounting his last 'meeting' with Saruman, he tells how Saruman came down the stair to meet him. At the end of that paragraph, he says; "He wore a ring on his finger."

Now... why does Gandalf mention this? Why does Tolkien mention it? Was this some kind of 'Ring of Power'? Here are some possibilities that come to mind:

* Had Saruman attempted to make Rings of Power himself (or at least one?)?
* Did Sauron give Saruman a Ring... maybe one of the Nine? One of the Seven? Did it aid in controlling the orcs and doing some of the other works Saruman did at Orthanc?
* Was it a 'lesser ring'? An 'Elven Ring' or magic ring of some kind that wasn't one of the 'Twenty'?

OR...

* Was Saruman secretly engaged or married? :p

[The Gaffer]

Way to attempt to resurrect some actual JRRT-oriented discussion, Val;)

IIRC, he took the name "ring-maker" to himself, so I guess the first option is definitely true.

I've often wondered about the "lesser rings", the "essays in the craft" but "still dangerous to mortal hands " (according to Gandalf in FOTR). There's a strong implication that Saruman may have discovered some of the secrets of their making.

What would they do, these rings? Give you power of Command over woodlice? Make you invisible to hedghogs?:) Maybe some of the early models worked in reverse, so if you put it on it made everyone else invisible. I know some people who drive like that.

[Jonathan]

Saruman had indeed attempted to make a Ring of his own, that is why he called himself "Saruman the ring-maker".

The Encyclopedia of Arda (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/s/saruman.html) says:
Saruman set a trap for Gandalf, using the Wizard Radagast to lure him to Orthanc. When Gandalf came, Saruman revealed that he had made a Ring of his own, and that he was no longer Saruman the White, but claimed the title Saruman of Many Colours What powers the Ring held aren't clear. Does anyone know?

[edit] Cross posting with the Gaffer.

[barrelrider110]

He was originally a Maia spirit named Curumo in the service of Aulë the Smith. I'm sure he was skilled in craft. I do think Saruman tried to make his own ring of power, but perhaps found his skill far inferior to the Elves of Eregion.

Also when Gandalf describes his robes to the company, he says they "shimmered so that the eye was bewildered." He seems to suggest that he was somewhat entranced by Saruman's appearance. Perhaps the ring gave him some hypnotic power of persuasion, like his voice?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

It's also possible the ring Saruman wore was one he had found or stolen elsewhere. In UT, when King Elassar checks out Orthanc:
"Then all the secrets of the tower were searched. many things of worth were found, jewels and heirlooms of Eorl...and other such things, more ancient and beautiful, from mounds and tombs far and wide. saruman in his degradation had become not a dragon but a jackdaw. At last behind a hidden door that could not have been found or opened had not Elassar had the aid of Gimli the Dwarf a steel closet was revealed...In a casket on a high shelf two things were laid. One was a small case of gold, attached to a fine chain; it was empty, and bore no letter or token, but beyond all doubt it had once borne the Ring about Isildur's neck. Next to it lay a treasure without price, long mourned as lost for ever: the..." (oh, I guess you can read the rest for yourselves):)

[Olmer]

As far as I know, there is only plausible reference to Saruman's ring is in the FOTR "Foreword":'Saruman, failing to get
possession of the Ring, would in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth.' ~JRRT
Knowin his dedication to the lore of the Rings of Power, I think that he came closer to uncover the secret of ring-making, so one could assume that it was made by him in vain attempt to to recapture the abilities of the Great Rings.

But if it so , I have another thought , or rather speculation.
As we know, Saruman is Maya, just like Sauron.
Sauron was quite unpopular among Valar, kind like a black sheep, which was always causing troubles,but nevertheless on numerous time, even if his body was totally destroyed, he was not cast out in the Void, his spirit endured and was allowed to come back.
So, considering that Saruman is even the lesser evil, will it be reasonable to assume that he lost only his bodily form, his "shell", but his soul, just like Sauron's, went into hiding and recuperating?
Then, if we will take in account the fact that he, indeed, made a Power Ring of his own with maybe lesser abilities then The One Ring, we might say that as time goes by (like in 20 or 21 century? )Saruman has very great chances to take a visible shape again and became a powerfull evil figure ?

As I see Tolkien already hinted on such possibility.
What do you think about this one?

[Valandil]

Now THAT is an interesting concept... and might have made a worthy story of Fourth Age Middle-earth! :) The Return of Saruman... I LIKE it! :)

Protagonists could be Men led by Eldarion and great-grandson of Eomer, Dwarves - either of Erebor or those who had returned (wanted to return? maybe this story involves driving out the Balrog?) to Moria and Elves of Forest of Greenleaves.

Maybe Saruman's spirit finds one of the Blue Istari still alive and dominates him - taking him as an 'ally' - gathering again forces from the east - or maybe corrupting some who would otherwise be taken as allies of the good guys...

Possibilities...

[Beruthiel's cat]

This is a fascinating thread. The speculations are wonderful. I wish I could contribute something intelligent to the discussion, but, alas, I cannot. So I will just enjoy the banter. Thanks for making me think and imagine, folks!!!

[Radagast The Brown]

The difference, though, between Sauron and Saruman is that Saruman was an from the Istari, meaning, without full powers, and I don't tihnk he could shapeshift. While Sauron was in full powers before he made the Ring, and could shapeshift until Numenor destruction. And then, when he was 'destroyed', and Ring was still out there, and so he lived.
I don't think Saruman could come back, unless the Valar/Iluvatar, whoever made Gandalf return wants to.

[Valandil]

SPLASH!

Raddy throws cold water on all our fun ideas! :mad:

OK then, I guess Radagast has to become the evil Istari of the Fourth Age epic story we want to write. :p ;)

I know... after Saruman goes 'poof' - a little birdy carries his 'not-quite-up-to-snuff' ring back to Radagast, who uses it to rally the black squirrels of what he still calls Mirkwood against the onrushing Elven forces from Lorien as well as those from Thrainduil to the north! :evil:

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Valandil
SPLASH!

Raddy throws cold water on all our fun ideas! :mad:

OK then, I guess Radagast has to become the evil Istari of the Fourth Age epic story we want to write. :p ;)

I know... after Saruman goes 'poof' - a little birdy carries his 'not-quite-up-to-snuff' ring back to Radagast, who uses it to rally the black squirrels of what he still calls Mirkwood against the onrushing Elven forces from Lorien as well as those from Thrainduil to the north! :evil: Sure, blame me for all of your flawed ideas. :p

I must say you're very creative. I'd never think of me as evil, I don't have the skill nor the right laugh to be evil...:p

I don't think there will be another evil lord in the Fourth age, the only evils then are the men themselves.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
The difference, though, between Sauron and Saruman is that Saruman was an from the Istari, meaning, without full powers, and I don't tihnk he could shapeshift. While Sauron was in full powers before he made the Ring, and could shapeshift until Numenor destruction. And then, when he was 'destroyed', and Ring was still out there, and so he lived.
I don't think Saruman could come back, unless the Valar/Iluvatar, whoever made Gandalf return wants to.
He couldn't come back if he would leave Middle-earth. But he didn't. He was diminished to mere nothingness, but was not annihiliated, because as a lesser Ainur he has undestructable spirit form. He was shooed away from the home, but as spirit he continue to exist .

[Rían]

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
It's also possible the ring Saruman wore was one he had found or stolen elsewhere. In UT, when King Elassar checks out Orthanc:
"Then all the secrets of the tower were searched. many things of worth were found, jewels and heirlooms of Eorl...and other such things, more ancient and beautiful, from mounds and tombs far and wide. saruman in his degradation had become not a dragon but a jackdaw. At last behind a hidden door that could not have been found or opened had not Elassar had the aid of Gimli the Dwarf a steel closet was revealed...In a casket on a high shelf two things were laid. One was a small case of gold, attached to a fine chain; it was empty, and bore no letter or token, but beyond all doubt it had once borne the Ring about Isildur's neck. Next to it lay a treasure without price, long mourned as lost for ever: the..." (oh, I guess you can read the rest for yourselves):) That was such a cool little gem to find in UT! Really shows Saruman for the petty sleezeball he really was.

I think the ring was one he made, the little ring-bearer wannabe!

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Olmer
He couldn't come back if he would leave Middle-earth. But he didn't. He was diminished to mere nothingness, but was not annihiliated, because as a lesser Ainur he has undestructable spirit form. He was shooed away from the home, but as spirit he continue to exist . I don't understand, to tell you the truth... :o Who are you talking about? Saruman? Why was his spirit undesrtuctable?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think the ring was one he made, the little ring-bearer wannabe!

I agree with this as he called himself, 'Saruman the Ring-Maker'

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

It's also possible the ring Saruman wore was one he had found or stolen elsewhere. In UT, when King Elassar checks out Orthanc:
"Then all the secrets of the tower were searched. many things of worth were found, jewels and heirlooms of Eorl...and other such things, more ancient and beautiful, from mounds and tombs far and wide. saruman in his degradation had become not a dragon but a jackdaw. At last behind a hidden door that could not have been found or opened had not Elassar had the aid of Gimli the Dwarf a steel closet was revealed...In a casket on a high shelf two things were laid. One was a small case of gold, attached to a fine chain; it was empty, and bore no letter or token, but beyond all doubt it had once borne the Ring about Isildur's neck. Next to it lay a treasure without price, long mourned as lost for ever: the..." (oh, I guess you can read the rest for yourselves):)


Where in the Unfinished Tales is this!? I can't find it, sure you have the right book!?

[Radagast The Brown]

Where in the Unfinished Tales is this!? I can't find it, sure you have the right book!?I think it's in the end of 'Cirion and Eorl'.

[Attalus]

Where in the Unfinished Tales is this!? I can't find it, sure you have the right book!?Nope, it's in "THe Hunt for the Ring."

[Radagast The Brown]

Nope, it's in "THe Hunt for the Ring."Oh. :o I wasn't sure, I don't have UT and it's been some time since I read it. (yeah, *excuses*)

[Haradrim]

I think Saruman was just misunderstood as I have said about Morgoth and Sauron. He just wanted to know a littl emore about the rings so the other members of the council labeled him as a wierdo and then eventually he started listening to Sauron who was telling him that he had the right to do what he wanted like any good person should. Then when he joined Sauron Gandalf and the rest were shocked and fought him. Why? because Gandalf and the WHite COuncil had sticks up their *** and were to used to traditional ideas o fgood and evil. Poor Saruman.

[Valandil]

I think Saruman was just misunderstood as I have said about Morgoth and Sauron. He just wanted to know a littl emore about the rings so the other members of the council labeled him as a wierdo and then eventually he started listening to Sauron who was telling him that he had the right to do what he wanted like any good person should. Then when he joined Sauron Gandalf and the rest were shocked and fought him. Why? because Gandalf and the WHite COuncil had sticks up their *** and were to used to traditional ideas o fgood and evil. Poor Saruman.

Misunderstood? No-no!! He turned naughty indeed! Consorted with orcs and cut down forests and would have happily enslaved both you and me! Corrupted by power! :eek:

Gandalf & co. were being faithful to their good mission... and standing up for the freedom of all! :) :p

[brownjenkins]

But if it so , I have another thought , or rather speculation.
As we know, Saruman is Maya, just like Sauron.
Sauron was quite unpopular among Valar, kind like a black sheep, which was always causing troubles,but nevertheless on numerous time, even if his body was totally destroyed, he was not cast out in the Void, his spirit endured and was allowed to come back.
So, considering that Saruman is even the lesser evil, will it be reasonable to assume that he lost only his bodily form, his "shell", but his soul, just like Sauron's, went into hiding and recuperating?
Then, if we will take in account the fact that he, indeed, made a Power Ring of his own with maybe lesser abilities then The One Ring, we might say that as time goes by (like in 20 or 21 century? )Saruman has very great chances to take a visible shape again and became a powerfull evil figure ?

As I see Tolkien already hinted on such possibility.
What do you think about this one?

my thoughts too! if i was the fan-fic type, this is always a sequel i thought would be interesting :)

[Radagast The Brown]

I think Saruman was just misunderstood as I have said about Morgoth and Sauron. He just wanted to know a littl emore about the rings so the other members of the council labeled him as a wierdo and then eventually he started listening to Sauron who was telling him that he had the right to do what he wanted like any good person should. Then when he joined Sauron Gandalf and the rest were shocked and fought him. Why? because Gandalf and the WHite COuncil had sticks up their *** and were to used to traditional ideas o fgood and evil. Poor Saruman.I agree with Valandil - plus, they did listened to Saruman, which almost made them lose to Sauron. Saruman didn't want the council to attack Sauron in Dol Guldur, since he wanted the Ring to reappear to the call of its master - he eventually decided to attack (with the white council) when Sauron was close to find the Ring (or so Saruman thought). Which was too late.

[Haradrim]

I was being an idiot in my previous one I didnt mean much of it. :) ... or did I.