PDA

View Full Version : Nature of Caradhras's evil awareness?


Tuor of Gondolin
05-24-2004, 08:27 PM
I have always been of the impression Caradhras acted as an "independent agent" with generally evil intent. But while there are hints of independent actions by Caradhras the actual evidence in seems ambiguous and there are other passages such as: " 'I wonder if this is a contrivance of the Enemy,'said Boromir. 'They say in my land that he can govern the storms in the Mountains of Shadow that stand upon the borders of Mordor. He has strange powers and many allies.' 'His arm has grown long indeed,' said Gimli, 'if he can draw snow down from the North to trouble us here three hundred leagues away.' 'His arm has grown long,' said Gandalf."
For one, Michael Martinez seems to feel it acts under Sauron's influence
(http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/25723
"the snowstorm is one piece of evidence that Sauron is able to work his will hundreds of miles from Mordor."
-------------------------------------------------------
But if so, it seems a remarkably sloppy and careless use of power, since the mountain lets them go, to an area somewhat under Saruman's control.
And, of course, we know what PJ's reading is.

If Caradhras is not "activated" and controlled by Sauron, what is the nature and cause of Caradhras's apparent purposeful enmity?
And there are also hints in "The Ring Goes South" of Caradhras not being under Sauron's control or "created" by him.
===========================
""Caradhras was called the Cruel, and had an ill name," said Gimli, "long years ago, when rumour of Sauron had not been heard in these lands."
===========================
Clearly, as a mountain, Caradhras is not "alive" like the Great Eagles, balrogs, dragons, Ishtari, etc., so where would it's seeming intelligence and awareness originate?

One answer, very possibly intended by Tolkien, is that it is one of the mysteries/ambiguities he deliberately put in (like Tom Bombadil). But that needn't stop speculation.:)
From "Letters" #144:
"And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one(intentionally)."

Lefty Scaevola
05-24-2004, 09:28 PM
When the Valar and Maiar constructed the Earth, bu permission of THe ONE, they did so in part, for the more creative portions of their work, by expending portions of their existance and incorporating them into the creation. (Hence the marring of so much the world by Melkor/Morgoth because he was only non specialist and hand a hand in the making of so many parts of it). Although it is never specifically metioned, it is an easy extension of this creation process that some of the Maiar may have sometimes have incorporate all their remaining existance, including their consciousness, into what they wrought.

Olmer
05-24-2004, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
I have always been of the impression Caradhras acted as an "independent agent" with generally evil intent.

My impression is the same. From my own experience I know that the weather high in the mountains can be quite unpredictable and slight shift of the wind in the peaks region could bring down a snowstorm, not mention an avalachie.:(
Mountains are cruel by theirs own nature, and great and formidable mountains, such as Caradhras, have evil intend without any outside help. Even in summer time going through the mountain pass would be treacherous, not mentioning of trying to do it in the middle of the winter.

About Martinez... seems he is talking about PJ's choice of movie's location. The only interesting fact - is about 160 storms which is happening every minute around the World.:)

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola.. it is an easy extension of this creation process that some of the Maiar may have sometimes have incorporate all their remaining existance, including their consciousness, into what they wrought...
Very interesting suggestion.
So, you are saying that formidable cruelty is in Maiar's nature? Make sense...

Lefty Scaevola
05-25-2004, 12:33 AM
Recall that many of the Maiar were corrupted by Melkor and joined him in rebellion, not just of his own original folowing, but also many of thoses from other Valar's followers. In particular he attracted many of Aule's Maiar (such as Sauron), and Aule was specially concerned with the construction of mountains. If there was a Maiar consciouness with the mountain, it may have been an adherent of Melkor/Morgoth, or of Sauron, or perhsaps of Saruman who was also of the mair of Aule. Or it may have just been cranky and malicious, perhaps on account of an eons ago mistake, when it incorporated itself within a mountains in a burst of creative frenzy.

Beor
05-27-2004, 05:45 PM
I would go with what Lefty said about the Maiar putting their entire existance into this or that, but maybe the Maiar who constitutes Caradhras just didnt want to be messed with. I dont really appriciate flies crawling on me, so why should a mountain want to be climbed?

Or they could have been speaking figuratively.