What would the Balrog have done if the ring had fallen into his hands

[Ossë]

I often wonder what the balrog would have done say if the company had perished in the mines and he had obtained the ring. Would he have keep it for himself? He was probably powerful enough to use it. Or would the ring hold no temptation for him, for he himself is much older than the ring? Would he then have given it to sauron desiring a return to the dark days and thinking that this was the best way to do it? In fact, did he even know sauron was still about? Was the balrog even aware of anything to do with the rings at all, being underground for so long. Although i would think that the balrog would be sensitive enough, indeed even familiar enough to some extent with the evilness and the power of the ring even if he had never known of it before. I wonder what would happen if sauron and the balrog had meet. I am sure i remeber reading somewhere, i think in UT, where gandalf said that it was possible that smaug and sauron would 'help' each other. Therefore i would assume the same would be true of the balrog. Could the balrog consider sauron a worthy master and become a servent of him? Or would he see him merely as a fellow former servant of the same master?

[hectorberlioz]

Hmm....well, as far as I know, balrogs were rebellious elves;).
So I doubt if they would go on anyone's side except their own;).
As for if the moria balrog had obtained the ring, no doubt he would have dominated middle-earth with it;).

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Ossë
I often wonder what the balrog would have done say if the company had perished in the mines and he had obtained the ring. Would he have keep it for himself? He was probably powerful enough to use it. Or would the ring hold no temptation for him, for he himself is much older than the ring? Would he then have given it to sauron desiring a return to the dark days and thinking that this was the best way to do it? In fact, did he even know sauron was still about? Was the balrog even aware of anything to do with the rings at all, being underground for so long. Although i would think that the balrog would be sensitive enough, indeed even familiar enough to some extent with the evilness and the power of the ring even if he had never known of it before. I wonder what would happen if sauron and the balrog had meet. I am sure i remeber reading somewhere, i think in UT, where gandalf said that it was possible that smaug and sauron would 'help' each other. Therefore i would assume the same would be true of the balrog. Could the balrog consider sauron a worthy master and become a servent of him? Or would he see him merely as a fellow former servant of the same master? It is interesting, and I must say I haven't thought about the Rign with the Balrog.

Would the balrog know what the ring is? I think so. He probably knew Sauron, and the Ring is made of Sauron's power. Also, orcs that came after the second age would know about the Ring and would probably tell the balrog.
I don't think he would be tempted to wear it... for me, it seems like saying that a maia would be tempted to the Ring, although the Balrogs were wicker than a maia in his 'natural' form (it is said Balrgos are maiar).
I think... that because Sauron was the leader, the balrog would see him as his master.

Just my thoughts...

[Olmer]

The Balrog you are talking about was one of Udun dark spirits which survived after the War of Jewels. It 's unclear were they had been created by Morgoth or just summoned by him, but obviously they accepted him as the ONLY Master . I don't think that surviving Balrog was interested in any associations with Sauron.He clearly shows his neutrality through the whole history of events, but I also don't think that giving a chance to get the Ring he would submit it to Sauron.
Actually I think that Sauron would have a pretty tough time trying to get it out of Balrog. After all, they both are Maya and standing on the same level. Balrog would kneel down for Morgoth, but for Sau - never! This why Sauron can't use Moria tunnels for his military plans.
In my HO the disappearance of 7 Dwarf's rings could be attributed to Durin's Bane.I think the Rings (includung the One)didn't have any temptation on him, but as magic seekers of powerful keeper they had some powerful "pull". After thousand years of pleasant slumber all of the sudden Balrog again felt the familiar with Rings of Power "pull" and came out to deal with it.
Not in the means to obtain it to wield a power, but in the means to end an unpleasant feeling.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Olmer
The Balrog you are talking about was one of Udun dark spirits which survived after the War of Jewels. It 's unclear were they had been created by Morgoth or just summoned by him, but obviously they accepted him as the ONLY Master . I don't think that surviving Balrog was interested in any associations with Sauron.He clearly shows his neutrality through the whole history of events, but I also don't think that giving a chance to get the Ring he would submit it to Sauron.
Actually I think that Sauron would have a pretty tough time trying to get it out of Balrog. After all, they both are Maya and standing on the same level. Balrog would kneel down for Morgoth, but for Sau - never! This why Sauron can't use Moria tunnels for his military plans.
In my HO the disappearance of 7 Dwarf's rings could be attributed to Durin's Bane.I think the Rings (includung the One)didn't have any temptation on him, but as magic seekers of powerful keeper they had some powerful "pull". After thousand years of pleasant slumber all of the sudden Balrog again felt the familiar with Rings of Power "pull" and came out to deal with it.
Not in the means to obtain it to wield a power, but in the means to end an unpleasant feeling. As I say I do think the Balrog would see Sauron as his master.
Hoe else could Sauron promise the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain Moria if they told him where the Ring is?
Sauron was vthe greater in Morgoth's servents. I think the balrgos, therefore, sees him as the one who continues Morgoth's lead - like the orcs.
I didn't see the balrog as neutral, I don't think he attacked the orcs from Mordor that wer ethere, but he did attack the fellowship.

Sauron is stronger than the Balrogs. Even the maia between themselves ar enot equal. Sauron was a strong maia, no doubts... and it seems that the Balrogs are wickened, when they become 'Balrgos'. For example, they can die.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
.
Hoe else could Sauron promise the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain Moria if they told him where the Ring is?
WHAT are you talking about?:confused:
I didn't see the balrog as neutral, I don't think he attacked the orcs from Mordor that wer ethere, but he did attack the fellowship.
He did not attack the fellowship, he just followed them.

You didn't see his neutrality because you are reading without summorizing the facts, just skimming over...;)

Barlogs mortality still debatable, as spirits they can loose their physical forms without being completly nullified.
But personally I don't give a damn if they are mortal or not.:evil:

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Olmer
WHAT you are talking about?:confused:in the council of Elrond:
As a small token only of your friendship Sauron asks this: that you should find this thief, and get from him, willing or no, a little ring, the least of rings, that once he stole. It is but a trifle that Sauron fancies, and an earnest of your good will. Find it,[...] and the realm of Moria shall be yours forever.


He did not attack the fellowship, he just followed them.

You didn't see his neutrality because you are reading without summorizing the facts, just skimming over...;)

Barlogs mortality still debatable, as spirits they can loose they physical forms withou being completly nullified.
But personally I don't give a damn about if they are mortal or not.:evil: [/B] So you're saying he would just let them leave if Gandalf hadn't faught him?

Yes - but maiar can have another physical forms, and you don't see new Balrogs reviving do you?

[Vicky]

I read somewhere that Sauron told the Balrog to follow the fellowship, so if that's true, if would have given the ring to sauron.
Sauron was also a "servant" of Morgoth, but after the Valar captured Morgoth, Sauron took the place off Morgoth. Many off the orcs accpeted him as their master, so the Balrog may have done the same...

[Olmer]

About Dwarves reason of attending the Council of Elrond I have quite different POV...

But let me make a statement: MORIA NEVER BELONGED TO SAURON!
Tolkien himself wrote it in plain language.
This is a little deviation from the book to back it up: “…Sauron was plotting a war, and intended, as soon as he felt strong enough, to attack Rivendell. But to resist any attempt from the East to REGAIN THE LAND OF ANGMAR AND NORTHERN PASSES in the mountains there were now only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills.”(LOTR,appendix A,Durin’s folk)
This is from the conversation between Gandalf and Thorin in the “Prancing Pony”. Thorin seems very easy and naturally accepting Sauron's need of the northern passes to get the only access to Eriador.
And this is, indeed, not a nonsence. It is straightforwardly being told to us, that Sauron cann't use comfortable, warm and dry Moria's tunnels. It is another owner over there.
The history of Middle-earth would be going in different direction if it would be the other way .
But to everybodydy’s gladness Balrog didn’t have any intentions to leave the comfortable caves. And even more than that he didn’t want to participate in somebody’s stupid quarrels, where (who knows?) you even can get killed…:)
Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
So you're saying he would just let them leave if Gandalf hadn't faught him?

If it would not be for the Ring , he wouldn't give a damn about a few more wanderers in vast Moria tunnels.
The Ring is a device which tuned to attract persons with power, it doesn't see the difference between Elf , Man or Beast. As it sense the power it starts to emit the "pull" according the power measure of prospective possessor. And lo!, mighty Balrog - what a catch!.:D
I imagine the pull was enormous to make Balrog uncomfortable and seek the source of nagging symptoms.
He would definately get a possession of the ring( killing in process the Fellowship), but then he would just try to bury it somewhere, preferably as far from the place of his dwelling as it could be possible.
This way the ring would be, probably, much safer hidden than in the depth of the ocean , or even in Valinor.

[Radagast The Brown]

Does Moria called as a path in the mounatians for an army, though? I think it would be very hard to pass in there for Sauron, and he also could be ambushed when some of his army in inside the cave and be stucked there, if the gate had collapsed. That's why I don't think Gandalf thought SAuron would go in that way.

I can't sse how does the Iron Mountains stand between Sauron's way to Angmar, too.

About the balrog... maybe you're right. I don't believe so, but I can't see any problem with it.

[Ossë]

I can see your point about the balrog not been worried about a few more people wandering about. Something of the balrogs level is not going to be concerned about a few people and probably not bother to greet them himself. But in this case I don't think the ring made any difference, the balrog would have found and attacked them anyway. I think it was when the rumour reached him from the orcs, about the strange nature of the party and in particular gandalf, his curiosity was aroused. The balrog was a sworn enemy of the forces of light you might say and a loyal servent of morgoth. No doubt the balrog was dismayed when morgoth perished, as sauron was, and would carry a bitter hatred against them, if indeed the hatred he already bore was not enough. The balrog clearly sensed that gandalf in particular was a servent of the light, the very same force that killed his master, and immediatey rose to the challenge of facing him. The balrog probably hadn't faced someone of gandalfs stature for many years, maybe even as far back as the great war itself, when the balrog had fled. It must have been strange for the balrog to suddenly be confronted with one who so clearly and so directly served the light. It probably brought back bitter memories. As to what he would have done with the ring i am still not sure.

[Lefty Scaevola]

The balrog was not an enslaved will such as the Nazgul. If he obtained the the ring, he would have kept it for himself. He was of the more powerful Maiar that followed Melkor, similar in rank (under Moergoth) to Sauron. The chief of the Balrogs (not this one) was Morgoth's highest war captain. This creature, acustomed to power would have given over, the ring.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
The balrog was not an enslaved will such as the Nazgul. If he obtained the the ring, he would have kept it for himself. He was of the more powerful Maiar that followed Melkor, similar in rank (under Moergoth) to Sauron. The chief of the Balrogs (not this one) was Morgoth's highest war captain. This creature, acustomed to power would have given over, the ring. But in the Silmarillion, Valaquenta, it is told that Sauron was the greatest of all the servents of Morgoth. Wouldn't it make him higher in rank then a Balrog, not even the head of them?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Sauron in Beleriand is, I think, second in power and rank of the bad guys (recall his occupying Tol-in Gaurhoth and seeking to capture Luthien and kill Huan) but with the loss of much of his power into the ring it seems a debatable point whether the surviving balrog, clearly not originally the most powerfu of the balrogs, was a match for Sauron (given that Sauron directly controlled the nazgul).

[Earniel]

I have often wondered about the intelligence of balrogs, in my opinion they didn't have that much of it. There seems to be no will in them to reign vast number of people, to wage great wars, no gift of clever speech. I often wondered whether the avarage balrog could do much more, intellectually speaking, than devise tactics on a battlefield. The balrogs have incredible power and that makes them formidable opponents, but it's the fysical kind of power, not the mental one.

In that light the Moria-balrog would pay little attention to the Ring. (If he could even see it, compared to his own size the Ring must have been tiny.) He could perhaps feel the strenght of the Ring, but I doubt he would have wholy understood its significance or actually could have been corrupted into greed to keep it for himself. If the Fellowship had perished in Moria, I assume it would have been a mere orc that robbed the Ring from the corpses and brought it to its master.

It would also fit with the fact that the balrog didn't feature much in Sauron's plans of dominion. I think the balrog would have answered Sauron if Sauron had demanded his services, but Sauron did not and I think for a good reason. The threat of an alliance between Smaug and Sauron was far more plausible and dangerous. Dragons like Smaug (apart from the fact that they so obviously rock ;)) have a sharp intelligence, and more scheeming in them. They have a silver (albeit poisonous) tongue. In the Silmarillion Glaurung did more than the balrogs could ever have hoped to achieve, IMHO.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Eärniel
I have often wondered about the intelligence of balrogs, in my opinion they didn't have that much of it.
The threat of an alliance between Smaug and Sauron was far more plausible and dangerous.
In the Silmarillion Glaurung did more than the balrogs could ever have hoped to achieve, IMHO.
I just wanted to tell that that alliance Sauron and Dragons ( if any would survive) would be more effective than collaboration with wery powerful , but simple-minded balrog, who ,in the way like ferocious big dog, was avoided becase you 'd never know what to expect from him in the next second.
But you already said it even in better way. Thank you.:)

[The Gaffer]

There's not much evidence about what balrogs were actually like, though I agree with you, Earniel, that they may have been like big, ferocious dogs.

The scene that sticks in my mind from the Silmarillion is how the balrogs rescued Morgoth from Ungoliant, so clearly they would be enemies to be reckoned with. However, there's also the moment in FOTR when the balrog seizes the door-handle, perceives Gandalf, and comes up with a "counter-spell". That would imply that they have some sort of intelligence.

So yes, Sauron would be afraid of the Moria balrog I reckon. Being maiar, they would be indomitable.

What if he had got the Ring? Since the Ring grants power according to the measure of its bearer, it's hard to say without knowing more about what balrogs are about.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Barogs were the chief commanders of Morgoth, along with Sauron, and other coverted Maiar, and were not simple minded.
Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
But in the Silmarillion, Valaquenta, it is told that Sauron was the greatest of all the servents of Morgoth. Wouldn't it make him higher in rank then a Balrog, not even the head of them? Greastest servant does not equal Chief Captain of Angband, as Gothmog, lord of Balrogs is so titled.
Originally posted by Eärniel
It would also fit with the fact that the balrog didn't feature much in Sauron's plans of dominion. I think the balrog would have answered Sauron if Sauron had demanded his services, . Qutie the opposite in my view, it was because of the Balrogs personal power, will, and intelect, that Sauron could not control him, at least, not without the ring.

[Brimstone]

Ossë
"Or would the ring hold no temptation for him, for he himself is much older than the ring?"


Gandalf was older than the ring.

Ossë
"Would he then have given it to sauron desiring a return to the dark days and thinking that this was the best way to do it? "


No. No. No. No. In possessing the Ring he wouldn't need to give it to Sauron to have a return of the dark days; he had the power in his hand.

Ossë
"In fact, did he even know Sauron was still about?"


In the last days of the wars of the Orcs and Dwarfs the Balrog came to the bridge of KHAZA-DUM so the Dwarfs could not enter Moria, (in the Silmarillion, when Dain stood at the gate of Moria.)

He also came to the chamber of records and killed Balin's folk, (in the FOTR it said the walls in the chamber of records seemed to be scorched with flame.) The book they kept said, "A shadow moves in the dark."

It would seem that the Balrog ordered his orcs to build the dam on the Western side of Moria to trap the Dwarfs in Moria or drive them out the way they came, But he knew of the Elven door that would be above the lake, so it seems that he drove the Watcher out into the lake.

These incidents show that the Balrog had ways of getting news.
And he could not have missed the small band of Orcs that bore the emblem of the Eye, since they were at the chamber of records at the same time.

Also Gandalf said that Sauron highly coveted Moria, not only because of the orc-soldiers he could get there but because of Mithril. He made the orcs of Moria give all the pre-mined Mithril to him as tribute.

Radagast The Brown
"I think... that because Sauron was the leader, the balrog would see him as his master."


Since Gandalf said that Sauron coveted Moria, that means that Moria wasn't his, that means that Moria belonged to the Balrog, and since Sauron had Orcs in Moria its not to much to asume that Sauron would have demanded Moria from the Balrog, and Moria still wasn't Sauron's at the time of the FOTR, that mins that the Balrog sad no.

Olmer
"I think the Rings (includung the One)didn't have any temptation on him," (the Balrog)


Everyone who came into contact with the Ring was tempted
so it is a pretty far jump to suppose that the Balrog wasn't temptid by the Ring.

Radagast The Brown
"As I say I do think the Balrog would see Sauron as his master. Hoe else could Sauron promise the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain Moria if they told him where the Ring is?"


Uhhhhhh... he lied?

Radagast The Brown
"Sauron was (vthe:confused:;)) greater in Morgoth's servents. I think the balrgos, therefore, sees him as the one who continues Morgoth's lead - like the orcs. "

the orcs are not a good example. If you are evil and can intimidate them they will follow your orders.

Olmer
"He did not attack the fellowship, he just followed them."

At the bridge of KHAZA-DUM He attacked Gandalf when all Gandalf had done was say "You cannot pass."

Vicky
"Many off the orcs accpeted him as their master, so the Balrog may have done the same..."

Again the orcs are not a good example.

"But let me make a statement: MORIA NEVER BELONGED TO SAURON!
Tolkien himself wrote it in plain language.
This is a little deviation from the book to back it up: “…Sauron was plotting a war, and intended, as soon as he felt strong enough, to attack Rivendell. But to resist any attempt from the East to REGAIN THE LAND OF ANGMAR AND NORTHERN PASSES in the mountains there were now only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills.”(LOTR,appendix A,Durin’s folk)
This is from the conversation between Gandalf and Thorin in the “Prancing Pony”. Thorin seems very easy and naturally accepting Sauron's need of the northern passes to get the only access to Eriador.
And this is, indeed, not a nonsence. It is straightforwardly being told to us, that Sauron cann't use comfortable, warm and dry Moria's tunnels. It is another owner over there.
The history of Middle-earth would be going in different direction if it would be the other way .
But to everybodydy’s gladness Balrog didn’t have any intentions to leave the comfortable caves. And even more than that he didn’t want to participate in somebody’s stupid quarrels, where (who knows?) you even can get killed..."

Encore! Encore! Encore!

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Barogs were the chief commanders of Morgoth, along with Sauron, and other coverted Maiar, and were not simple minded.

Greastest servant does not equal Chief Captain of Angband, as Gothmog, lord of Balrogs is so titled.Doesn't it?
The Chief Captain of Morgoth's armies doesn't mean he's not servent of Morgoth.

Originally posted by Brimstone
Since Gandalf said that Sauron coveted Moria, that means that Moria wasn't his, that means that Moria belonged to the Balrog, and since Sauron had Orcs in Moria its not to much to asume that Sauron would have demanded Moria from the Balrog, and Moria still wasn't Sauron's at the time of the FOTR, that mins that the Balrog sad no.Can you quote where Gandalf says it? I'm not saying you're wrong, just not sure... I've heard he said so.

Uhhhhhh... he lied?Yeah, I obviously thought about that. :p But since I was arguing with Olmer, and he always take quotes from evil/insane characters and build on them his arguments, I let myself to assume he was talking the truth.

the orcs are not a good example. If you are evil and can intimidate them they will follow your orders.Perhaps not. But Balrogs wanted power, that's why they went with Melkor in the first place - why wouldn't they come to Sauron, which was stronger than it?

[Brimstone]

Radagast The Brown
"Can you quote where Gandalf says it? I'm not saying you're wrong, just not sure... I've heard he said so."

Sure
It might take a while.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Brimstone

Also Gandalf said that Sauron highly coveted Moria, not only because of the orc-soldiers he could get there but because of Mithril. He made the orcs of Moria give all the pre-mined Mithril to him as tribute.

I don't think that it has been any tribute or even barter agreement between Moria dwellers and Sauron. If it would be other way, imagine an army of trolls in mithril armor.:eek: Br-r-r!!!:D

[Brimstone]

The Gaffer
"I agree with you, Earniel, that they may have been like big, ferocious dogs."

would Ilavatar create the maia with different levels of intelligence? Of cores not.

Olmer
In the Silmarillion Glaurung did more than the balrogs could ever have hoped to achieve,

Glaurung had a greater body than the balrogs. For instance,
Glaurung's scale's where so strong (except on his belly ) that only the axes of the Dwarf's of the first age could harm him. But the balrogs had a power in the wraith world. If a Balrog fought Glaurung, the Balrog would most likely win, since flame couldn't hurt a Balrog, and the Balrog's weapons could penetrate the dragon's scales.

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Brimstone

would Ilavatar create the maia with different levels of intelligence? Of cores not.

He created them with different levels of power (Melkor being the greatest of the Ainur, for example), so why not different levels of intelligence or ambition?

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Brimstone
Glaurung had a greater body than the balrogs. For instance,
Glaurung's scale's where so strong (except on his belly ) that only the axes of the Dwarf's of the first age could harm him. But the balrogs had a power in the wraith world. If a Balrog fought Glaurung, the Balrog would most likely win, since flame couldn't hurt a Balrog, and the Balrog's weapons could penetrate the dragon's scales. Actually... It is not said that only the axes of the Dwarves could harm him. The elves and men couldn't fight him becauase of his flames, and the dwarves, because of their helmets and probably nature, could come closer to him and therefore attack him with their axes.

[Earniel]

It seems we have stumbled on another interesting Balrog-debate that doesn't revolves around their wings. :)


Originally posted by Brimstone
The Gaffer
"I agree with you, Earniel, that they may have been like big, ferocious dogs."

would Ilavatar create the maia with different levels of intelligence? Of cores not.
I never said Eru Iluvátar created the Balrogs with lesser intelligence on purpose. There is a difference IMO between how Eru Iluvátar created the Ainur and how they became when they entered the bounds of Arda and became the Valar and Maiar. When the Ainur took form here on Arda, they underwent changes and were tied to the element of their form.

Olmer
In the Silmarillion Glaurung did more than the balrogs could ever have hoped to achieve,

Glaurung had a greater body than the balrogs. For instance,
Glaurung's scale's where so strong (except on his belly ) that only the axes of the Dwarf's of the first age could harm him. But the balrogs had a power in the wraith world. If a Balrog fought Glaurung, the Balrog would most likely win, since flame couldn't hurt a Balrog, and the Balrog's weapons could penetrate the dragon's scales.
That was me who said that. :) Personally, I do not think a balrog would win of Glaurung. Flames are not the only strength of a dragon of Glaurung's stature. I wasn't talking about fysical power alone.

But Glaurung showed more independant thought than the balrogs in the Silmarillion and that's how he brought ruin to Nargothrond and Húrin's family. Whereas the balrogs merely followed Morgoth's orders.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally posted by Earniel
Glaurung showed more independant thought than the balrogs in the Silmarillion and that's how he brought ruin to Nargothrond and Húrin's family. Whereas the balrogs merely followed Morgoth's orders.
________________________
Plus dragons (Glaurung and Smaug) showed a wicked, and dark, sense of humor and/or irony, indicating an acute intelligence.

I haven't read much in them, but I believe it's been said by people on the Entmoot that in the HoME series balrogs show an evolution in Tolkien's concepts of them, so one question is what is the most definitive depiction of balrogs (not wings, but size, strength, and intelligence) that can be determined. I think it's possible that there's even a question of how definitive CT's edited Silmarillion is concerning them.
Of course, if they're so bright, how come the Moria one needed thousands of years beauty sleep? And apparently wasn't even curious about the outside world after those pesky dwarves woke (him?) up, but was contented to just hang out in Moria. (By the way, what did they eat, little orcsees- like Shelob)?

[Vicky]

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
Of course, if they're so bright, how come the Moria one needed thousands of years beauty sleep? And apparently wasn't even curious about the outside world after those pesky dwarves woke (him?) up, but was contented to just hang out in Moria.

But if they were so stupid, how come it took Gandalf, who's also a Maiar and has the same powers, so long to win? Gandalf even died because of the fight...

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
(By the way, what did they eat, little orcsees- like Shelob)?
This question was bothering me also and I was looking through the books for some answer.
Now you probably will dismiss my posting like crazy idea, but based on the text of the book there was some kind agreement betwen Lorien and Moria. I think, barter: Lorien - food, Moria - precious metals, jewelry.

If I would write how I came to it ,it would be very long post, but I say that the hints on it I found in chapter VI of FOTR and chapter III of TTT.

Besides, somewhere in the book I have read that among Sauron's allies was also corrupted dwarves. If some dwarves could serve Sauron, naturally comes that some would stay in Moria just being "independent entrepreneurs", and their status on Moria's social ladder would not be on the last step .

Originally posted by Vicky But if they were so stupid, how come it took Gandalf, who's also a Maiar and has the same powers, so long to win? Gandalf even died because of the fight...
Gandalf was not allowed to reveal his real nature and real power.
Otherwise at the first moment of recognition of Gandalf's true indentity he would run away as fast as he can.

originally posted by Radagast the Brown
T... elves and men couldn't fight him becauase of his flames...
You forgot about Glorfindel...

[Vicky]

I find it hard to believe that a balrog, who's also a Maia, have a brain like a cavetrol, or a dog. I always thought that Maia's were some sort of halfgods and gods and halfgods are supposed to be intelligent...

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Vicky
But if they were so stupid, how come it took Gandalf, who's also a Maiar and has the same powers, so long to win? Gandalf even died because of the fight...
Stupidity has no negative effect on strength, the balrog was immensely strong, fysical and seemingly also with some magic (since The Gaffer reminded me of that, I had indeed forgotten :))

Originally posted by Vicky
I find it hard to believe that a balrog, who's also a Maia, have a brain like a cavetrol, or a dog. I always thought that Maia's were some sort of halfgods and gods and halfgods are supposed to be intelligent...
I've always thought Maiar come in many different shapes and sizes.

I wouldn't go so far as giving a balrog the intelligence of a cave trol or a dog. I do think they're more intelligent than that but definitely not as intelligent as Sauron, dragons or Nazguls. Maybe I'm still running on Tolkien's older ideas of balrogs, since the concept of balrogs did change somewhat in the writing. But somehow balrogs struck me as not having the intelligence of Morgoth's other powerful servants. They have (as it seems to me) an unimaginative, dependant, focussed only on strength and battle sort of intelligence.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Olmer

You forgot about Glorfindel... He killed a Balrog, not a dragon.

This question was bothering me also and I was looking through the books for some answer.
Now you probably will dismiss my posting like crazy idea, but based on the text of the book there was some kind agreement betwen Lorien and Moria. I think, barter: Lorien - food, Moria - precious metals, jewelry.

If I would write how I came to it ,it would be very long post, but I say that the hints on it I found in chapter VI of FOTR and chapter III of TTT.

Besides, somewhere in the book I have read that among Sauron's allies was also corrupted dwarves. If some dwarves could serve Sauron, naturally comes that some would stay in Moria just being "independent entrepreneurs", and their status on Moria's social ladder would not be on the last step . It would be actually intersating to hear how you got the idea, Olmer. :)

Gandalf was not allowed to reveal his real nature and real power.
Otherwise at the first moment of recognition of Gandalf's true indentity he would run away as fast as he can. I don't think Gandalf was so powerful.
I agree with Earniel, the balrog was strong, and Gandalf, no matter that he was the wisest of the Maiar as said in the Silmarillion, couldn't overcome him.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown


It would be actually intersating to hear how you got the idea, Olmer. :)


All right. here it is. :cool:

Considering a huge amount of Moria’s dwellers you can’t help to ask a question: how did they provide for themselves in stony, barren, unsuitable for unsupported life underground? Pilferage and robbery of neighborhood villages definitely won’t be enough . Since we didn’t find any mentions of orcs raising a livestock on Caradhras’ terraces, or Sauron’s convoys with humanitarian help:D , it implies that they have to have some other source of the foodstuff supply. A barter would be the next suggestion.
But what Moria can offer for a food? A precious stones and metals, and in unlimited quantity.
So, who could be interested in the time of unrest to exchange food for gems? They, who always had a longing for a beautiful jewelry.
That right, the despised, dirty orcs had an agreement with the Elves, and not with “just elves”, but with the Elves of Lothlorien.

Now the Elves-lovers will start throwing stones at me for such abominable insinuation .
But wait a minute, it’s not my saying.
J.R.R.T himself reveals this conception of existence of some kind agreement in very gracious and subtle way, you just have to be a little analytical while reading.

Let start with time when the Fellowship met the guards of Golden Woods, when Frodo woke late at night.
”The Elves were gone…A little way off he heard a harsh laugh and the thread of many feet on the ground below.There was a ring of metal. The sounds died slowly away, and seemed to go southward, on onto the woods.”
(FOTR,BookII) You don’t have to be an expert on military's spy-diversion activities to know that this is not the way of walking through the full of enemies woods. More so, this laugh and noise was intended to make a forewarning of theirs passing a way ahead, otherwise in confusion you could get an arrow in your back. This troop of orcs had no intention to fight with elves, they more resembles a troop of policemen which in height of chase crossed neighbor’s state line, but weren't worry too much about being certain of the cooperation due an agreement .

Soon comes Haldir to give Frodo an account of event :” The three of us couldn’t challenge a hundred (100), so we went ahead and spoke with feigned voices, letting them on into the woods. …None of the Orcs will ever return out of Lorien”.
Then later Haldir “REPORTED” to the Company a news that ” the marauding orcs has been waylaid and ALMOST ALL DESTROYED, the remnants has fled…towards the mountains and being pursued”. So, all troop of more than 100 orcs has been destroyed. Right?
Wrong!
Now, let see what orcs are talking about after capturing Merry and Pippin “Not our orders!…We have come all the way from the Mines to kill, and avenge our folk. I wish to kill, and then go back north.”(TTT,Chapt.III)
Did you get it? From the MINES. From the Moria mines!
Is not it that same “killed in Lorien”orcs? The same, the same!
The Professor tells us about it in very conspiratory way :he just gives us the number and hopes that we will
put two and two together : Northerners broke away… over a hundred of them…”
Of course , the numbers are approximate, but any way the amount of Northern orcs entering Lorien woods and orcs leaving the Falls of Rauros about the same.
None of them was killed in Lorien by elves, they were allowed to pass, and in the light of this facts I could suggest that the Elves and Orcs of Moria had some kind of pact. Since both sides was very much interested in dealing with enemy, I assume that the reason should be to get something unattainable for them in any other way than through exchange . Which means barter.

[Vicky]

I read somewhere that the orcs attacked travellers and killed goats to get food. The tekst also said that they worshiped the balrog and like in so many cultures that could be seen in their armour in witch they tried to imitate the balrog and that they also gave him offers. It didn't say what kind of offers but I think it's very possible that it was some sort of food.

[Earniel]

Hm, as interesting as your theory is, Olmer, I can't see the Lothlórien Elves trade with the Moria Orcs. It's like, I don't know, the Witch King going shopping for night-dark cloaks in Minas Tirith...

[Lefty Scaevola]

Conspiracy theories are a dime a dozen; such as: We have not record of the Mouth of Saurons body being found after the colapse of Mordor, and we all know Sauron can reappear sometime in the long furture after his fall. Could either one now be posting on this forum?
:eek:

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Olmer
...Let start with time when the Fellowship met the guards of Golden Woods, when Frodo woke late at night.
”The Elves were gone…A little way off he heard a harsh laugh and the thread of many feet on the ground below.There was a ring of metal. The sounds died slowly away, and seemed to go southward, on onto the woods.”
(FOTR,BookII) You don’t have to be an expert on military's spy-diversion activities to know that this is not the way of walking through the full of enemies woods. More so, this laugh and noise was intended to make a forewarning of theirs passing a way ahead...

Soon comes Haldir to give Frodo an account of event :” The three of us couldn’t challenge a hundred (100), so we went ahead and spoke with feigned voices, letting them on into the woods. …None of the Orcs will ever return out of Lorien”.
Then later Haldir “REPORTED” to the Company a news that ” the marauding orcs has been waylaid and ALMOST ALL DESTROYED, the remnants has fled…towards the mountains and being pursued”. So, all troop of more than 100 orcs has been destroyed. Right?
Wrong!
Now, let see what orcs are talking about after capturing Merry and Pippin “Not our orders!…We have come all the way from the Mines to kill, and avenge our folk. I wish to kill, and then go back north.”(TTT,Chapt.III)
Did you get it? From the MINES. From the Moria mines!
Is not it that same “killed in Lorien”orcs? The same, the same!
The Professor tells us about it in very conspiratory way :he just gives us the number and hopes that we will
put two and two together : Northerners broke away… over a hundred of them…”
Of course , the numbers are approximate, but any way the amount of Northern orcs entering Lorien woods and orcs leaving the Falls of Rauros about the same.
None of them was killed in Lorien by elves, they were allowed to pass, and in the light of this facts I could suggest that the Elves and Orcs of Moria had some kind of pact. Since both sides was very much interested in dealing with enemy, I assume that the reason should be to get something unattainable for them in any other way than through exchange . Which means barter.

OK Olmer - in keeping my promise from the other thread, here's where you had an interesting point and got me thinking... about a hundred orcs from the Misty Mountains in each case... coincidence? :)

As for keeping all the evil armies of the world fed, clothed and otherwise supplied, I had sort of figured that Prof Tolkien was more interested in simply telling his story than in working out all those logistics. Still... I see where you draw support for your theories on this.

Lefty has a point too though (just prior to this post of mine)... and I really haven't been on Tolkien message boards long enough to have run across various 'conspiracy theories' (and I don't mean that in an insulting or condescending way Olmer... just meaning the POV you take that, 'things are not as they are made to appear on the surface')... this being my first MB and only having been on it for about 8 months.

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Could either one now be posting on this forum?
:eek:
He already has (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=58), and even has his own web site featuring a spectacularly dodgy Flash movie. I think I spotted him at the G8 meeting too ;)

[Count Comfect]

About the Moria orcs- you could also (as I do) look at the "avenge our folk" as also avenging those who Haldir etc. killed. And if more than 100 Northeners broke away, did they ALL get away? Because otherwise the numbers no longer match because there are 100+however many don't escape in Rohan vs. 100 in Lorien.

Oh, and as a student of military history, lots and lots of companies have made much more noise trying to sneak through enemy territory and a harsh laugh and the sound of feet and metal. In fact, that's about as quiet as one could expect a medieval army (and that's what the technological level is) to be. So there is no need to assume that they are being let through. Sure, a modern army makes a LOT less noise, but medieval technology doesn't let you do that.

But a very interesting theory, as usual. I still disagree, but that doesn't mean it isn't very well thought out.

[Olmer]

You all pointed out on the weak sides of my theory. Thanks for taking your time to “get into it”.
Now I will try to work in this points , or just give more insights on some aspects.
Also, I want you to know that my silence was due to serious sickness in the family.
It was no need for apologies , but still they were wholeheartedly accepted .I guess that being labeled as local crank sometimes could get through my thick skin and sometimes you want , if not an agreement, but at least an acknowledge that this theories ,as unusual as they are, came through the suggestions in the text given by Tolkien himself ,and therefore should be viewed with the same respect as any others based on popular believe and public acceptance of the story as it is.
Eärniel Hm, as interesting as your theory is, Olmer, I can't see the Lothlórien Elves trade with the Moria Orcs. It's like, I don't know, the Witch King going shopping for night-dark cloaks in Minas Tirith…
I quoted Tolkien’s words, but you can not see, or just don‘t want to see. O.K, then tell us to what conclusion about Moria’s provision you came up after reading the book.?
Do you have some plausible alternative, which is based on the text? Just don’t say that Tolkien didn’t think about it, because, as I see from the study of the text , he DID think about it.

Valandil
As for keeping all the evil armies of the world fed, clothed and otherwise supplied, I had sort of figured that Prof Tolkien was more interested in simply telling his story than in working out all those logistics. Still... I see where you draw support for your theories on this.
Professor was not interested in “simply telling his story”, his concern was in CONVEYING the message about the events of long gone world, glimpses of which was coming to him as separate visions of the whole big picture, but the links between the fragments was always there.(The stories) arose in my mind as “GIVEN“ THINGS, and as they came, separately, so too the links grew…yet always I had the sense of “recording” what was already “THERE” somewhere not of “inventing“…Letter#131
As he admitted , in some cases, when taking ”largely impersonal view “on the LOTR, he himself had been surprised with findings that the base canvas of the story seems giving a quite different interpretation of events. The links between events was missing and he had to “think up” some explanations of things which didn’t “add up”, like the case of Isildur’s dishonorable death.
Tolkien always felt that he is ”reporting “ the events “ imperfectly”, that the story of the book consists the vistas of yet more legend and history.
If he would be interested in just telling the story, as many authors do nowadays, he wouldn’t go through “colossal” labor of ”re-writing backwards” trying to work out all these logistic between separate visions of the story as it has been “given”to him , detailing up to boreness in the field of geography, societies structure, linguistics and folklore. Naturally, he can overlook some aspects, but it doesn’t mean that it was not “there“.
Valandil OK Olmer - in keeping my promise from the other thread, here's where you had an interesting point and got me thinking... about a hundred orcs from the Misty Mountains in each case... coincidence?

"Hardly a word in its 600.000 or more has been unconsidered.
And the placing, size, style, and contribution to the whole of all the futures, incidents and chapters has been laboriously pondered"

Considering the above given Professor’s statement and the fact that he mentioned 3 TIMES the number of Northerners, and every time it was +/- 100, you can’t sign it off as “coincidence”, because it has a persistent repetition .
The Orcs , which captured Merry and Pippin, “did not wish to fight “or avenge, they came here with THE ORDER, they had nothing against the Fellowship.Boromir force them to fight and managed to get away. But in a little while they met another group “a hundred Orcs at least” who right away began to shoot arrows, they came there with different purpose: to avenge.
If Tolkien cared to mention even smallest # of orcs which was getting killed each time, I’m sure the whole given numbers was very much considered .

Count Comfect And if more than 100 Northerners broke away, did they ALL get away? Because otherwise the numbers no longer match because there are 100+however many don't escape in Rohan vs. 100 in Lorien.Yes, they ALL, or almost all got away .Don’t forget that Haldir was not giving exact number of orcs, he was speaking figuratively:
“The three of us could not challenge a hundred”, so it could be 100 +, about the same amount of Northerners which “broke away” before the raid of Rohirrim.As I mentioned above, those 20 orcs, which got killed by Boromir, was from the different , SS (Sauron-Saruman), company, they had an ORDER and was not looming through the woods, but concealing themselves quietly in one place, listening.

Count Comfect About the Moria orcs- you could also (as I do) look at the "avenge our folk" as also avenging those who Haldir etc. killed.
May I ask you WHY did they GO TO RAUROS looking for Elves to “avenge”? Did the Elves dwell there?
The answer is obvious: they was not looking for the Elves, and when they was ambushing company at Sarn Gebir, this Orcs were tried to kill everyone.
They DID NOT have an order to capture the hobbits.They come all the way down with a different agenda.
Then here is arising another question: why all orcs met exactly at Rauros? How did they know that the company will go down the river by boats and won’t take another route? From where the 3 different companies of orcs have got the information where is the best place to ambush the Fellowship?
From those, why advised the company to go to Rauros and provided them with boats - the Lorien’s elves, precisely.

I can easily imagine missing by Professor scene, which had happened down on the ground, while Frodo is sitting in the dark, listening as orcs are passing by.
“Suddenly clad in gray, tall and grim figure appeared in front of the orc’s leader .
“You! Idiots!What the hell you doing here in the middle of the night?” demanded the Elf in shrill whisper.
“Ugh!“ the leader stop dead on the track, tensed, but visibly relaxed, recognizing the Elf.”A-a, Haldir!Glad that you, old monkey, did not fall, yet, from the tree.Think your boys won’t mind our noise. We just passing by, chasing after nine thugs, who barged into our house.All Moria’s floor covered with blood! We are looking for revenge .”
“Get out of here! It ‘s such politics involved in it, that you and I could get expendable without a second thought!
Wait for them near Rauros, they definitely will come there by our boats,”ordered Haldir.
“Ho! So serious? Rauros then…Let’s go, boys!
By the way, Haldir, do you know is bracelet for my girlfriend ready, yet? She is asking me about it every day. Tell them to hurry up. See yua“…
:D :D

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Olmer
Also, I want you to know that my silence was due to serious sickness in the family.

Sorry to hear that. Glad you're back around. Is everything OK? Did you lose anyone?

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Olmer
...Professor was not interested in “simply telling his story”, his concern was in CONVEYING the message about the events of long gone world, glimpses of which was coming to him as separate visions of the whole big picture, but the links between the fragments was always there.(The stories) arose in my mind as “GIVEN“ THINGS, and as they came, separately, so too the links grew…yet always I had the sense of “recording” what was already “THERE” somewhere not of “inventing“…Letter#131
As he admitted , in some cases, when taking ”largely impersonal view “on the LOTR, he himself had been surprised with findings that the base canvas of the story seems giving a quite different interpretation of events. The links between events was missing and he had to “think up” some explanations of things which didn’t “add up”, like the case of Isildur’s dishonorable death.
Tolkien always felt that he is ”reporting “ the events “ imperfectly”, that the story of the book consists the vistas of yet more legend and history.
If he would be interested in just telling the story, as many authors do nowadays, he wouldn’t go through “colossal” labor of ”re-writing backwards” trying to work out all these logistic between separate visions of the story as it has been “given”to him , detailing up to boreness in the field of geography, societies structure, linguistics and folklore. Naturally, he can overlook some aspects, but it doesn’t mean that it was not “there“.

Since your quote will be bolded, I took the liberty of underlining portions which you had bolded.

Olmer, I always figured Tolkien was speaking metaphorically about his inspiration. I don't see anything to indicate to me that he thought it was truly something which had happened before, and that it was now being 'revealed' to him in some metaphysical way.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Valandil

Olmer, I always figured Tolkien was speaking metaphorically about his inspiration. I don't see anything to indicate to me that he thought it was truly something which had happened before, and that it was now being 'revealed' to him in some metaphysical way.
Thanks for your concern, Valandil. Now, since the crisis is over, we'll hope that everything will be OK.

Now,back to our discussion...

If you don’t want to believe , you will never see .
Just like some people believe in existence of divine power (the God) and everywhere are seeing the signs of his presence, while other people demand a solid prove, being skeptical and doubtful, and , naturally, with such attitude, they will never find any evidence of God’s existence, even if it will be right in front of their eyes.
Tolkien, as devoted Catholic, TRULY believed in divine inspiration, and his impression about his writing experiences had been mentioned him in his letters not just once or twice, this goes like a red thread through all his letters. He was speaking LITERALLY , and I don’t have any reason not to believe that this was his true feelings.
I understand your skepticism.
Me, myself grew up in an atheistic family, where all believes were firmly based on science, but over the years I happened to witness a few miracles and just impossible things to happen, got smart enough to know that our science still in primordial stage and to say “it can’t happen because the science says it could never happen” would be quite silly and premature.
I believe that everything is possible, unless it proved beyond doubt of the other way .:cool:

P.S.Recently I read in the “Science” magazine that physics and mathematicians found out and proved that the Universe has at least 18 dimensions, and so far only gravitons are able to travel from one plane to another.
How about our solid earth? It’s all an illusion, next to us exist another worlds, and some of them even crossing over ours, where the time is not linear and can be in past, present and future..
Mind-bogging! What could be on the other side? Stephen King’s “Mist” or a world with “The Black Tower? A prototype of Matrix or really existing world of Middle -earth?
Then, at the crossing over, it ‘s some possibility that we have some portals in another world. Just say ,friend, and enter.
:) ;)

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Olmer
I quoted Tolkien’s words, but you can not see, or just don‘t want to see. O.K, then tell us to what conclusion about Moria’s provision you came up after reading the book.?
Do you have some plausible alternative, which is based on the text? Just don’t say that Tolkien didn’t think about it, because, as I see from the study of the text , he DID think about it. :D :D
My opinion about Tolkien's writings are not set in stone and discussion here on the Entmoot has made me change my view on some aspects more than once. So it's not that I don't want to see it, I just don't see it yet.

So far I had always assumed that the 100 orcs that entered Lothlórien were not the only party sent out. The Moria-orcs would have had large numbers to draw on and if they wanted to avenge their dead and teach those upstarts that had the audacity to enter Moria a lesson, they wouldn't have sent out only one squad.

It would make sense to send out squads that had about the same number of orcs, so the coincedence that the northerner orcs in the party that captured Merry and Pippin also numbered a hundred is IMO not necesarily an indication that they are the same group that tracked through Lothlórien.

I also assumed Haldir was telling the truth and that those 100 that entered Lothlórien also didn't come out alive again.

About the orcs being loud and very audible, the Elves named them 'the Noice-herd' for a reason and they named them well. :)

I have not reread the texts in question and am relying on my memory for the moment but I will reread them when the LoTR-project comes to those chapters and I will pay extra attention to this because I think your theory is interesting but I con't subscribe to it yet. :)

Although, an interesting tidbit that does suit your theory: according to my LoTR-appendices (and if I remember correctly) Lothlórien was attacked thrice from Dol Guldur. Interesting in the fact that -while Moria was closer (at least on my map)- the Moria orcs did not take the chance to attack Lothlórien from two side and catch the Elves between hammer and anvil so to speak. This also ties in nicely in the discussion whether the orcs of Moria were under command of Mordor or the independant command of the Balrog. The latter could explain why the Moria orcs didn't enter the battle to aid Sauron.

[Count Comfect]

Olmer - I still have problems with your numbers.

If "over a hundred" broke away from the fight with the Rohirrim, but "a hundred" were in Lorien then:

I can see that the two could be the same number, except that it would require the Rohirrim to have killed basically no Northerners... which I don't see. Basically, they fought and THEN broke out, so some would die. But if some died then the numbers become

"over a hundred" + some who died vs. "a hundred"

Which seems imbalanced.

[Olmer]

Count ComfectOlmer - I still have problems with your numbers.
I can see that the two could be the same number, except that it would require the Rohirrim to have killed basically no Northerners... which I don't see.

Basically the Northerners did not loose any people at Rauros and Rohirrim have killed just a few of them in the first raid.
Your problem is in assuming that 100+ given after the raid of Rohirrim.Read the chapter carefully.The amount "over a hundred" broke away BEFORE the fight with the Rohirrim, not after.

This is how I see all the numbers.
A troop of 100+ orcs passed through Lorien and went down to Rauros to avenge. They openly showed their intention to kill everybody at Sarn Gebir.
At the same time two other groups of orcs from Isengard and Mordor hided themselves for an ambush and got a “pleasure” to meet Boromir.Twenty at least from this group got killed before Boromir and Hobbits broke away, but then they met “a hundred Orcs at least”(100+), which were shooting arrows, they was not engage in close combat and therefore theirs number was not depleted.
Later all orc groups united for a dangerous trip back to Isengard, and Tolkien gives an amount of each group ,just before they noticed the first scout of the Riders and discord between them broke out: a couple of score( +/-40) -from Mordor, four score at least(80+) - Isengarders and and over a hundred(100+) Northerners.Total - 220+ orcs.

Now, after the first raid of Rohirrim Tolkien gives us an exact number of orcs: fully two hundred remained (200).
220 - 200 = 20. Just +/- twenty orcs had been killed in the first raid The Isengarders have lost 1 person.The Orcs from Mordor, who lagged behind , got hit most of all. The Northerners were far ahead of them, but still behind Isengarders and therefore lost some people for sporadically arrow shooting by the Riders, but still not that much to make any plausible dent in the amount of their unit.
EärnielIt would make sense to send out squads that had about the same number of orcs, so the coincedence that the northerner orcs in the party that captured Merry and Pippin also numbered a hundred is IMO not necessarily an indication that they are the same group that tracked through Lothlуrien

This is VERY GOOD argument. Actually , you cornered me, and it won’t be easy to “wiggle out”.:(
Of course, I will try, just need a time to review a few chapters.;)
Say, do you play chess? Nice move.
Eärnielaccording to my LoTR-appendices Lothlуrien was attacked thrice from Dol Guldur. Interesting in the fact that -while Moria was closer (at least on my map)- the Moria orcs did not take the chance to attack Lothlуrien from two side and catch the Elves between hammer and anvil so to speak. This also ties in nicely in the discussion whether the orcs of Moria were under command of Mordor or the independant command of the Balrog. The latter could explain why the Moria orcs didn't enter the battle to aid Sauron.

Thanks for sharing this tidbit, it is really interesting observation.
It’s amazing how much of new information you can “dig out” by careful re-reading and analyzing Tolkien’s book. I‘ve never cease to wonder about it every time when such tidbits surface out of the seems already scrutinized text..

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Olmer
...

This is VERY GOOD argument. Actually , you cornered me, and it won’t be easy to “wiggle out”.:(
Of course, I will try, just need a time to review a few chapters.;)
Say, do you play chess? Nice move...

She's a smart one, our Eärniel! ;) Was there any particular reason you used the expression wiggle out? :p :D

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Olmer
Then here is arising another question: why all orcs met exactly at Rauros? How did they know that the company will go down the river by boats and won’t take another route? From where the 3 different companies of orcs have got the information where is the best place to ambush the Fellowship?
From those, why advised the company to go to Rauros and provided them with boats - the Lorien’s elves, precisely.

I can easily imagine missing by Professor scene, which had happened down on the ground, while Frodo is sitting in the dark, listening as orcs are passing by.
“Suddenly clad in gray, tall and grim figure appeared in front of the orc’s leader .
“You! Idiots!What the hell you doing here in the middle of the night?” demanded the Elf in shrill whisper.
“Ugh!“ the leader stop dead on the track, tensed, but visibly relaxed, recognizing the Elf.”A-a, Haldir!Glad that you, old monkey, did not fall, yet, from the tree.Think your boys won’t mind our noise. We just passing by, chasing after nine thugs, who barged into our house.All Moria’s floor covered with blood! We are looking for revenge .”
“Get out of here! It ‘s such politics involved in it, that you and I could get expendable without a second thought!
Wait for them near Rauros, they definitely will come there by our boats,”ordered Haldir.
“Ho! So serious? Rauros then…Let’s go, boys!
By the way, Haldir, do you know is bracelet for my girlfriend ready, yet? She is asking me about it every day. Tell them to hurry up. See yua“…
:D :D

Olmer, I also have a hard time understanding why, even with your theory as a given, that the Elves of Lorien would conspire with the Orcs of Moria in such a way as to actually imperil the Fellowship. Would they want Frodo's Quest to fail? I had not gathered that notion from any of your prior posts. :confused:

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Valandil
Would they want Frodo's Quest to fail?
The Lothlorien was the only land in Middle-Earth given the grace, power and immortality of the Rings. With destruction of the One Ring the powers of the other Rings of Power would be abolished and Lothlorien would fade with time , becoming mortal.

More details to it I gave in the answer to Beren 3000 in "Don't touch the water" thread.

[matthew]

I think the Balrog would have taken the ring and dominated middle earth. Definitely. It wouldn't have felt any allegiance to Sauron, and besides, when did anyone give the Ring to someone who they thought could use it better? Frodo once, but certainly no one "evil".

[political statement removed by moderator - not appropriate to forum - post in GM]

[Ossë]

I really can't see any weight in the moria-lorien conspiracy theory. Its like saying that gandalf went round saurons for tea. It goes completly against the grain of the elves, of all the history of middle earth, of everything. If it was true, then everything that tolkien wrote about all the races would have to be questioned. I also think you can read too much into the text. Nope, this theory is utterly impossible.

[jonny5]

I wasn't under the impression that the balrog was very smart... I thought that "bad guy was his name and killing was his game" ;-)

Oh...just wondering....I noticed that you seem to have edited matthew's post... I didn't notice anything about politics in the forum rules, is there a moratorium on that?

[Valandil]

Originally posted by jonny5
Oh...just wondering....I noticed that you seem to have edited matthew's post... I didn't notice anything about politics in the forum rules, is there a moratorium on that?

You're free to talk about politics in the appropriate places. Tolkien forums however, are not the appropriate places. There are a number of existing threads on current issues in GM - and if there's an issue not being discussed that someone wants to talk about, they're free to start a thread on it - just so it all stays within board guidelines (which are posted in a separate thread of GM).

So, it wasn't the 'what'... it was the 'where'. :)

[Attalus]

Interesting thread. I will just comment on what I think are mistaken ideas. First and foremost, Balrogs are fallen Maiar. They are not stupid, but horribly formidable fighting beings of angelic order. Tolkien said, in the Letters, that the Balrog did not speak because that would increase the terror he hoped to inspire. Interestng, considering the threat display it had just peformed with its wings or shadows or whatever-the-heck they were. As posted before, the breaking-spell that it cast was indicative of quite a high intelligence. If the Balrog had found the Ring, it would have been tempted by it, as were all beings who came into contact with it, even Sam, bless his heart; and corrupted by it, as all were save Sauron. He would have claimed it to try and become the next Dark Lord. The Balrog was not subject to Sauron. If it had been, do you really think that he would not have used it, particularly in the War of the Last Alliance? I am quite certain that they knew of each other, through the Orcs. On the subect of food, Balrogs are not incarnates, they do not need food, as Gandalf might. Finally, the idea of the Elves, especially the Galadrim, bargaining with the Orcs of Moria, is risible. To quote the invaluable Gildor Inglorion, "Is it not enough that they are servants of the Enemy? Fly from them speak no words to them." Do not forget also the torment that the Orcs put Celebrian, Galadriel and Celeborn's daughter to. Do you really think that the Lady of the Galadrim would so forget that to engage in trade? No mithril that I know of, was to be found in Lorien.

[Attalus]

Oh, to clarify the above, I want to say that the Balrog had not been awakened during the War of the Last Alliance. But evil creatures do not bow the knee to others unless conquered or overawed, and the Balrog would have been hard to do either too. As someone else posted, Moria did not belong to Sauron.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think the Balrog would have taken the ring and dominated middle earth. Definitely. It wouldn't have felt any allegiance to Sauron, and besides, when did anyone give the Ring to someone who they thought could use it better? Frodo once, but certainly no one "evil".

[political statement removed by moderator - not appropriate to forum - post in GM]

Maybe he would have felt an allegance to Sauron as he was chief of Morgoths balrogs and Sauron was Morgoths no.2.

[Attalus]

Maybe he would have felt an allegance to Sauron as he was chief of Morgoths balrogs and Sauron was Morgoths no.2.Durin's Bane was not the chief of Morgoth's Balrogs. That was Gothmog, who killed Fëanor and whom Eärendil slew. I very much doubt that Balrogs felt any loyalty to anyone but Morgoth.

[Radagast The Brown]

Durin's Bane was not the chief of Morgoth's Balrogs. That was Gothmog, who killed Fëanor and whom Eärendil slew. I very much doubt that Balrogs felt any loyalty to anyone but Morgoth.Actually, Ehtelion killed Gothmog. Earendil slew Ancalagon the Black.

I do think, though, that Sauron was greater than the Balrog, and that he probably had under, as he was once the leader of Angband, Balrogs. I'm not sure how loyal they were though... he could, even though was ruled once by Sauron, take the Ring anyway knowing he'd be stronger than Sauron with it.

[Attalus]

Actually, Ehtelion killed Gothmog. Earendil slew Ancalagon the Black.

I do think, though, that Sauron was greater than the Balrog, and that he probably had under, as he was once the leader of Angband, Balrogs. I'm not sure how loyal they were though... he could, even though was ruled once by Sauron, take the Ring anyway knowing he'd be stronger than Sauron with it.You're right. My wits were woolgathering.

[Olmer]

It would make sense to send out squads that had about the same number of orcs, so the coincedence that the northerner orcs in the party that captured Merry and Pippin also numbered a hundred is IMO not necesarily an indication that they are the same group that tracked through Lothlórien.

Finally I got some time to get out of the place you have got me cornered. :D :D

Of course it would make sense to send out squads on the chase that had about the same number of orcs. It would, if they would be going in the different direction looking for the Fellowship. But it is only one way from the Moria , and this way leads through Mirrowmere dale and down along the Silverlode river.“There is no other way…unless you would go back to Moria gate, or scale the pathless mountains, or swim the Great River all alone”(FOTR,BookII) tells Aragorn to Boromir. Indeed , between the mountans and Anduin you can go north and south. Hundred miles away the north way was ending into 70 miles lake with steep sides, which has been formed by Gladden river mingled with Anduin’s waters .This two rivers were creating a great and wide marshes of the Gladden fields at the merging point , which from this approach can’t be accessible, because , feeded by Gladden river waters and many other streams, the Great River swells at the south of the Gladden fields and quicken, running through the deep depression. If you don’t want to climb the patheless mountains to get to the other side of the lake, than you have only one option: go back to “the square #1” and lead your search group of orcs as far south as you can. But this the only way has one serious drawback: to go after the Fellowship you have no other way south, but to pass through the Elves’ realm. "East and West land of Lorien was bounded by Anduin and the mountains” merging into Fangorn forest.(UT.The history of Galadriel)
And since…the great watch was now kept since the tidings of Moria.(FOTR, book II, chapt. VI) and the host of Elves was sent
…. to guard against any attack from Moria,” there is no other chance for any other orcs host to get to the west shores of Anduin.

[Valandil]

But that 'no other way' refers to the fellowship. The Orcs might have been more capable of traveling through the mountains... or had other tunnels from Moria leading off in all directions! ;)

*ushers Olmer back to his corner* :p

[Olmer]

The Orcs might have been more capable of traveling through the mountains... or had other tunnels from Moria leading off in all directions! ;)
*ushers Olmer back to his corner* :p
All right, I agree with you and Earniel, the Orcs might be capable to to travel through the mountains by some known only to them passes.
Let’s look at the situation from this point of view.
(Olmer stoically resisting Valandil’s steady pushing .) :p
Suppose that orcs did not really know in which way the Group running from the Moria, so they sent the CHASE (we know that it was the chase because later they were saying that they have come all the way from the Mines to avenge ) in two direction: North to the Gladden fields and South, passing Lorien and adjacent to the Elve‘s land Fangorn, which was never too friendly to orcs. So, this is quite a distance to cover scaling the passless mountains.
Then what the purpose to venture on the long treck along the mountains if the “intruders” obviously were running AWAY from the mountains?
If you assuming that the orcs were organizing a systematic search sending a few groups to cover all probable escape areas of Moria’s intruders, then they were not a bunch of aimlessly running morons, and their action to run from Mordor by the tunnels leading Southth should be purposeful. Othervise it looks just the same as if you will yell “Catch the thief!” and run in opposite of the perp’s direction. Absolutely senseless…
So I still stand up by my statement that the orcs were allowed to pass Lothlorien.

[Valandil]

Well... if Lorien WAS a powerful enemy to the orcs of Moria (as the Hobbits, through whom these stories are filtered, seem to believe), it would be prudent to send some of the squads around it rather than through it. Perhaps the one that actually went into Lorien got too excited about being on their trail, threw caution to the wind... and went in anyway, while others were sent to go around...

Just an alternate way to explain some of the things you've picked up on... :)

[Attalus]

Well... if Lorien WAS a powerful enemy to the orcs of Moria (as the Hobbits, through whom these stories are filtered, seem to believe), it would be prudent to send some of the squads around it rather than through it. Perhaps the one that actually went into Lorien got too excited about being on their trail, threw caution to the wind... and went in anyway, while others were sent to go around...

Just an alternate way to explain some of the things you've picked up on... :)I have always taken it that they sent out several parties, perhaps with the 'sniffer orcs' that we encounter in Mordor, to chase down the intruders and avenge the Balrog. I think that they got a 'hot scent,' threw caution to the winds (orcs aren't very cautious, probably by design) and invaded sacrosanct Lothlórien, and died for their temerity. I think that it is a mistake to regard the Narrator as a Hobbit, but more as a Man who had heard the story froim Elves, called Aelfwine in early drafts of the LotR. The Appendices, however, are very much Hobbit-written.

[Earniel]

Finally I got some time to get out of the place you have got me cornered. :D :D
I'm glad you tried. :D

But wouldn't it have been possible that some orc-squads also issued from Moria but choose to go around Lothlorien, perhaps to capture the intruders ont the other side? The one squad that did enter the forest could have served to flush the fugetives out of hiding.

[Olmer]

Well... if Lorien WAS a powerful enemy to the orcs of Moria (as the Hobbits, through whom these stories are filtered, seem to believe), it would be prudent to send some of the squads around it rather than through it.
Just an alternate way to explain some of the things you've picked up on... :)
But if you will take in account your explanation, the whole arrangement will look even more sinister than just an allowance to pass through the land. If they took the pain to detour Lorien and Fangorn and go straight to Rauros, it means that they KNEW BEFOREHEAD who those strangers are, and in what direction they intended to move and precisely where you have to ambush them.
After all the Fellowship might go on foot through Lorien realm and then the Woldand into Gondor, or, since the aim was Mordor, the most reasonable course should be: to cross Anduin at North or South Undeep and then a straight advance through the deserted Brown lands and Dagorlad.

Originally Posted Eärniel
But wouldn't it have been possible that some orc-squads also issued from Moria but choose to go around Lothlorien, perhaps to capture the intruders ont the other side?
Following your suggestions, the most logical place to catch “flushed out” intruders was at the borders of Lorien kingdom - southern shores of Limlight, or at the Undeeps, the distant and unpopulated northern corner of Rohan, but nevertheless the Moria’s orcs were undertaking hazardous trip through the central Rohan to get to Sarn Gebir just in time to catch on passing by the Fellowship, bound for Rauros.
But why Rauros in the first place? Why the “wise” advised the Fellowship on moving by the river to the point where the straight and relatively safe crossing to Mordor is practically impossible (razor-sharp stones of Emyn Muil and the unpassable Dead Marshes and Wetwang marshes)? After the Rauros more or less suitable places to get to the Ephel Duath was in Denethor‘s domain -close proximity of Minas Tirith.
Besides, you can’t find the better place to trap your enemies: the river ends into the greatest and biggest waterfall, and surrounded by ridged rises of Emyn Muil, which on the east side slopes down in the Dead Marshes and on the west side( the Fellowship was on the west side) a few hills dropping sharply in a cliff- Rohan East Wall.

We know that SS -groups (Sauron-Saruman) came to Parth Galen by the ORDER. I don’t want to talk about their puzzling knowledge of the exact location of the Fellowship’s last bivouac. But we are talking about Moria’s orcs , and their appearance at the Falls of Rauros non the less puzzling also. The puzzle pieces falls in place if you suggest a COOPERATION from the Elves. :evil:

[mithrand1r]

Also, I want you to know that my silence was due to serious sickness in the family.

Hope all is better now. :)

May I ask you WHY did they GO TO RAUROS looking for Elves to “avenge”? Did the Elves dwell there?
The answer is obvious: they was not looking for the Elves, and when they was ambushing company at Sarn Gebir, this Orcs were tried to kill everyone.
They DID NOT have an order to capture the hobbits.They come all the way down with a different agenda.
Then here is arising another question: why all orcs met exactly at Rauros? How did they know that the company will go down the river by boats and won’t take another route? From where the 3 different companies of orcs have got the information where is the best place to ambush the Fellowship?
From those, why advised the company to go to Rauros and provided them with boats - the Lorien’s elves, precisely.

Some thoughts on how/why the orcs could be at Sarn Gebir.

Perhaps Saruman had some information from his Palantir and used that information to direct the orcs.

Perhaps the mordor orcs were in the neighborhood. Maybe Sauron had abother reason for having orcs in the area. (At the moment I cant think of any ;))
Maybe one of Saurons underlings, a Ringwraith or maybe a spy of modor, was able to get some clue about suspicious activity on the river. Maybe Sauron got the info from Saruman via the palantir.

It could also be Serendipity. If the "good" guys can benefit from serendipity, why can't others benefit from serendipity. :p

[Forkbeard]

Hope all is better now. :)



Some thoughts on how/why the orcs could be at Sarn Gebir.

Perhaps Saruman had some information from his Palantir and used that information to direct the orcs.

Perhaps the mordor orcs were in the neighborhood. Maybe Sauron had abother reason for having orcs in the area. (At the moment I cant think of any ;))
Maybe one of Saurons underlings, a Ringwraith or maybe a spy of modor, was able to get some clue about suspicious activity on the river. Maybe Sauron got the info from Saruman via the palantir.

It could also be Serendipity. If the "good" guys can benefit from serendipity, why can't others benefit from serendipity. :p


Well I think it obvious. Especially after the Moria escapade, Saruman at the very least had an idea about where the Ring would be goiing--to Lothlorien. There is no doubt that orcs on both sides of the river spotted the company and shooting down the Nazgul's mount certainly alerted both Saruman and Sauron of hostiles on the river that should be watched carefully. If they are going downriver, and both Saruman and Sauron would think that the Ring was going to Minas Tirith in the hopes of using it against Sauron, then they had to port their boats around the Falls, and the best place to do that would be Sarn Gebir. So Saruman sends a force of orcs, they meet up with orcs from the mines tracking the company and seeking revenge and the White Handers press them into service. Recognizing the possibility that the Ring might be on the River, but certainly wanting to capture and question the Company Sauron and the Nazgul send a force over the river, and everyone comes crashing together at Sarn Gebir.

I think its just good strategy on the parts of Saruman and Sauron.

[Attalus]

Certainly the Orcs that were shooting at the Fellowship would have reported suspicious activity to their superiors. I do not know of any reason to station Orcs along Anduin except to keep an eye on Lorien. They could easily have been based at Dol Guldur, where Nazgul usually were stationed.

[Forkbeard]

Certainly the Orcs that were shooting at the Fellowship would have reported suspicious activity to their superiors. I do not know of any reason to station Orcs along Anduin except to keep an eye on Lorien. They could easily have been based at Dol Guldur, where Nazgul usually were stationed.

I rather think that all roads were watched...not just those leading in and out of Lothlorien

[Attalus]

I rather think that all roads were watched...not just those leading in and out of Lothlorien
All roads? Enough to draw an Orc attack on what might seem an ordinary group of travelers? Hm, maybe in the general vicinity of Moria, since the Balrog's death, if reported, and I think it was, would have alerted the power-that-be that something extremely powerful was in the vicinity.

[Forkbeard]

All roads? Enough to draw an Orc attack on what might seem an ordinary group of travelers? Hm, maybe in the general vicinity of Moria, since the Balrog's death, if reported, and I think it was, would have alerted the power-that-be that something extremely powerful was in the vicinity.

And just where would an ordinary group of travelers be going on the River Anduin between Lothlorien and the sea? Everyone (save Saruman) on the one shore is the enemy of Sauron: Lothlorien, Rohan, Gondor. If they aren't for you, they're against you. Best question them if they're skirting around my border when I'm about to launch a major offensive. Particularly when these ordinary travelers are floating along in Elven boats wearting elven cloaks and shoot down the flying steed of a Nazgul in the dark....indeed I'd want to question those ordinary travelers.

And remember, the Balrog's downfall occurred over a month before. Now, if you were Sauron/Saruman, and you knew that the Balrog of Moria had died (not knowing about Gandalf, and Saruman knew (or we can guess he knew) that Gandalf had company and among them were hobbitses (how else would his orcs have known what to look for at Sarn Gebir?)) and that orcs hadn't done it, but rather a band of interlopers, some of whom escaped. Well, if those interlopers aren't on your side, and were last seen hot footing it toward Lothlorien, where in fact they were tracked to; and a month later a group of Elven cloaked people of various races start floating downriver in Elven boats, wouldn't you think that there might be some connection, and want those chaps stopped and questioned? Particularly when it becomes known that there are halflings in the group?

[Attalus]

Oh, yes, I quite agree with that reasoning.

[Forkbeard]

Oh, yes, I quite agree with that reasoning.
I'm sorry, I thought you were disagreeing....I'm confused. But that's not unusual..eh?

[ItalianLegolas]

i think that the balrog would be to stupid to do anything with the ring, except KILL, KILL, KILL!

[Olmer]

Recognizing the possibility that the Ring might be on the River, but certainly wanting to capture and question the Company Sauron and the Nazgul send a force over the river, and everyone comes crashing together at Sarn Gebir.
I think its just good strategy on the parts of Saruman and Sauron.
A GOOD strategy?
Just think about it. According to Gandalf and the Elves Sauron "greatly desires" the Ring and "all his thoughts is bent on it".
Here comes a very definite chance to get the Ring by ambushing the Company, which is, thanks to Nazgul's scouting , certainly carrying the One.
You would do everything possible to insure that the object of yours "great desire" won't slip away from your grasp.
What did Sauron do? He sent 40 orcs. 40! Twice less than Saruman, who also desired the ring.You could say that he ,also, sent a Nazgul.
I like it! To make a wreck in Crickhollow and Bree and cause a panic and fright amidst of hobbit-burghers he sent all the Nine, but when here is a very good chance to get the Ring back, he sent just one Nazgul which was hiding somewere on another shore, faraway from the fight.
Obviously, Sauron was not that interested to get the Ring back. He was just immitating his interest. And Nazgul was neded just for one purpose:to detect who will be the next Ringbearer.

[Manveru]

A GOOD strategy?
Just think about it. According to Gandalf and the Elves Sauron "greatly desires" the Ring and "all his thoughts is bent on it".
Here comes a very definite chance to get the Ring by ambushing the Company, which is, thanks to Nazgul's scouting , certainly carrying the One.
You would do everything possible to insure that the object of yours "great desire" won't slip away from your grasp.
What did Sauron do? He sent 40 orcs. 40! Twice less than Saruman, who also desired the ring.You could say that he ,also, sent a Nazgul.
I like it! To make a wreck in Crickhollow and Bree and cause a panic and fright amidst of hobbit-burghers he sent all the Nine, but when here is a very good chance to get the Ring back, he sent just one Nazgul which was hiding somewere on another shore, faraway from the fight.
Obviously, Sauron was not that interested to get the Ring back. He was just immitating his interest. And Nazgul was neded just for one purpose:to detect who will be the next Ringbearer.

i dont think so, sauron probably didnt have time to send up a bigger force of orcs up there, and the other nazgul were needed for the war, plus what if this group was just a decoy? i dont think he would have been willing to risk sending everything against this one group when he's planning a major war. probably what happened was the nazgul stationed there had been watching the fellowship's movement from the east bank and was planning to ambush them, but since the fellowship can move faster cuz of the boats it was hard to actually do this, then his stead gets shot down, which makes it even worse, and one of the companies he sent for the ambush actually does meet up with the fellowship. there were probably other groups that didnt make it. instead of sending one large group to hunt down 8 camoflaged(sp?) travellers he sent out a bunch of smaller groups. it makes perfect sense since there is more chance of them finding them and a larger army couldve been noticed and avoided easier. plus there were only really 4 good warriors in the group. im sure 40 orcs could be expected to take on 4 warriors, especially if the 4 warriors are split up in the woods and all they have to do is kidnap some halflings and get out of there

[Olmer]

Based on WHAT text you can back up your suggestion?

[Forkbeard]

A GOOD strategy?
Just think about it. According to Gandalf and the Elves Sauron "greatly desires" the Ring and "all his thoughts is bent on it".
Here comes a very definite chance to get the Ring by ambushing the Company, which is, thanks to Nazgul's scouting , certainly carrying the One.
You would do everything possible to insure that the object of yours "great desire" won't slip away from your grasp.
What did Sauron do? He sent 40 orcs. 40! Twice less than Saruman, who also desired the ring.You could say that he ,also, sent a Nazgul.
I like it! To make a wreck in Crickhollow and Bree and cause a panic and fright amidst of hobbit-burghers he sent all the Nine, but when here is a very good chance to get the Ring back, he sent just one Nazgul which was hiding somewere on another shore, faraway from the fight.
Obviously, Sauron was not that interested to get the Ring back. He was just immitating his interest. And Nazgul was neded just for one purpose:to detect who will be the next Ringbearer.

Hi Olmer,
Yes, I'll defend my position that I think this was good strategy. First, how do you know that Sauron KNOWS that he has a chance to get the Ring? The Nazgul? That's problematic. Nazgul are certainly a lot closer to the Ring and Frodo on previous and subsequent occasions than the one flying over the river that Legolas shoots down. The Nazgul had many opportunities to seize the Ring since they were in close proximity and should have sensed it, but don't seem to. I think its too much to expect that the Nazgul sensed the Ring as it was flying high above the river. Would Sauron know through the Palantir? Probably not. The Palantir don't see through clothes. He may have discerned once he became aware of the party on the river that there were 8 hostiles consisting of 2 men, 1 elf, 1 dwarf, and 4 little people that must be halflings who may or may not have anything to do with the Ring, but undoubtedly would be wanted for questioning and enslavement later. So how would he KNOW that the Ring was on the river? He might suspect, but how would he know?

Second problem is one of logistics. To cross a river, one needs boats, a ford, a ferry, or a bridge. We know that no ford, ferry, or bridge existed at that point on the river or for some distance either direction. So this leaves boats. Orcs are not known for being particularly adept at boating. And unlike further down the river, there don't seem to have been any plans to invade Rohan that far north, all the boats and preparations for crossing the river seem to have been concentrated at Osgilliath, and from there forces went north to block the road from Rohan to Minas Tirith. So they need either to make boats quickly, limiting the number of troops to send across. Or they need to port materials up or down from the work sites preparing for river crossings at Osgilliath or against Lorien, again taking time and effort...to be done quickly, it means limiting the size of the troop.

On the other hand, there is Sauron's ally Saruman who is intended to draw off Rohan. But it is too soon to play that hand. So Sauron has Saruman send a force too, who meet up with a group of avengers from Moria. They high tail it across Rohan, Wormtongue influencing the king not to do anything about it. So between the forces coming from the west and those coming from the East, it shouldn't be a big deal for some 120 orcs to kill 4 warriors and kidnap four halflings.

As for the Nazgul, again, they had not been openly used in Gondor or Rohan or Lorien yet, they were yet disguised and visible only in the background. It is only us as Readers and the Fellowship plus Elrond and Galadriel who know that the 9 are abroad before war is on them. So, again, unless Sauron wants to tip his hand too soon, he doesn't want to reveal openly the Nazgul, unless he knows for certain that the Ring is with the Fellowship...and he doesn't. He can only suspect it or suspect that they have information about it.

So I think it good strategy and not a feint at all.

[Manveru]

i agree, also sauron isnt playing an RTS game on his computer, it takes a long time for orders to go down the line and so to plan an attack so far away from barad-dur would be hard to do quickly

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

It wouldn't nessecarily have to be quickly. If the Nazgûl had alerted Sauron that the hobbits had entered Rivendell then it would be obvious to Sauron that they would try and do something about him. He knew Gandalf had escaped Saruman so if they did try and go to Minas Tirith as he suspected then the next most direct route would be Moria.

[Radagast The Brown]

It wouldn't nessecarily have to be quickly. If the Nazgûl had alerted Sauron that the hobbits had entered Rivendell then it would be obvious to Sauron that they would try and do something about him. He knew Gandalf had escaped Saruman so if they did try and go to Minas Tirith as he suspected then the next most direct route would be Moria.No, I don't think so - no sane person would go through Moria when he's got other choices, even if they're a bit longer. Gandalf didn't have any other choices, but I don't think Suaron expected Gandalf to go to Moria.

[Manveru]

ya moria was there last choice, they tried every other way but when they didnt work they had to use moria

[Olmer]

No, I don't think so - no sane person would go through Moria when he's got other choices, even if they're a bit longer. Gandalf didn't have any other choices, but I don't think Suaron expected Gandalf to go to Moria.
And what a coincidence!
Obviously, Gandalf was not among the sane persons, because he did not let down of Sauron's great expectation . ;) :cool: Moria was his FIRST and ONLY choice from the beginning!
"There is a way that we may attempt",said Gandalf. "I thought from the beginning, when first I considered this journey, that we should try it...The road that I speak of leads to the Mines of Moria".
Don't watch the movie! Read. ;) :)

[Forkbeard]

And what a coincidence!
Obviously, Gandalf was not among the sane persons, because he did not let down of Sauron's great expectation . ;) :cool: Moria was his FIRST and ONLY choice from the beginning!
"There is a way that we may attempt",said Gandalf. "I thought from the beginning, when first I considered this journey, that we should try it...The road that I speak of leads to the Mines of Moria".
Don't watch the movie! Read. ;) :)
it was gandalf's first choice because it was the unexpected cHOICE--THE WAY TO KEEP THEM OFF SAURON'S RADAR for awhile

[Attalus]

Besides, even if Gandalf knew about the Balrog, a very doubtful proposition, if you ask me, he would have hoped to sneak through. Moria was a big place, and he seems to have had some hope that it was empty of orcs. Heck, if it were just a map campaign, and a given that the Redhorn Pass was closed to them, Moria is the obvious cchoice. Balin might even still have been there, unlikely though that was, given the lack of messages from Moria to the Iron Hills.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But Sauron knew that they wouldn't have wanted to go any where near Saruman and that Caradhras would be near impassable so Moria would be the only other route.

[Pytt]

did Sauron know that Sauruman blocked Charadras from the fellowship? and if sauron knew Gandalf was insane enough to take the path trough Moria, he could as well try to cross the Gap unseen. I think. there is one way too, is'nt it? the path Galadriel and the elves take, when leaving the hobbits and Gandalf on the journey back.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But they didn't know the strenght of Saruman. Attempting to cross the Gap unseen wouldn't have been a good idea because it most probably wouldn't have worked. The Mines would supposedly throw Sauron off the scent. Anyway, I'm sure Sauron had enought orcs to spare the amount he did to go to Moria.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Besides, even if Gandalf knew about the Balrog, a very doubtful proposition

This is taken from LOTR, The Council of Elrond: "Moria! Moria! Wonder of the Northern world! Too deep we delved there, and woke the nameless fear." Gloin.

While I do realise that the namless fear is not named, the wise would at least know about it's existence. And given that Gandalf was sitting a few seats around from Gloin when he spoke, Gandalf damn well would have known.

He may not have known it was a Balrog, but he knew that it was something terrible. For if something is keeping the dwarves from Durin's halls, their great forefather's home, then the thing keeping them away must be a thing of great power and evil, no?

[Olmer]

it was gandalf's first choice because it was the unexpected choice -THE WAY TO KEEP THEM OFF SAURON'S RADAR for awhile
On contrary, it was quite expected choice, because Sauron certaily knew that tunnels of Moria not once had been used by the elves as more comfortable passage through the Mountains, espesially in the winter.
Besides, even if Gandalf knew about the Balrog, ... he would have hoped to sneak through.
And he almost succeded in it, if Pippin woudn't make a racket.
Moria is the obvious choice.
Exactly!
...so Moria would be the only other route.
Actually, it WAS other route:Cirith Forn en Andras , clean, safe to pass and guarded from orcs, with only one catch - you have to pay a toll. :rolleyes:

[Pytt]

But they didn't know the strenght of Saruman. Attempting to cross the Gap unseen wouldn't have been a good idea because it most probably wouldn't have worked. The Mines would supposedly throw Sauron off the scent. Anyway, I'm sure Sauron had enought orcs to spare the amount he did to go to Moria.

if you are talking about the fellowship, I think Gandalf knew Sarumans strength. and though it not likely woyuld have worked to go trough the Gap unseen, the possibility is still there. Gandalf knew about the balrog, or at least knew there was something in there, so both ways had it's dangers, but going trough the Gap meant Saruman was in the reach for the ring. but I still don't think Sauron knew exactly which path the fellowship would take.

[Olmer]

Hi Olmer,
First, how do you know that Sauron KNOWS that he has a chance to get the Ring?

He may have discerned once he became aware of the party on the river that there were 8 hostiles consisting of 2 men, 1 elf, 1 dwarf, and 4 little people that must be halflings who may or may not have anything to do with the Ring, but undoubtedly would be wanted for questioning and enslavement later.

Second problem is one of logistics. We know that no ford, ferry, or bridge existed at that point on the river or for some distance either direction.
So this leaves boats....all the boats and preparations for crossing the river seem to have been concentrated at Osgilliath... So they need either to make boats quickly, limiting the number of troops to send across. Or they need to port materials ... from the work sites preparing for river crossings at Osgilliath ...

So Sauron has Saruman send a force too... So between the forces coming from the west and those coming from the East, it shouldn't be a big deal for some 120 orcs to kill 4 warriors and kidnap four halflings.

As for the Nazgul, again, they had not been openly used in Gondor or Rohan or Lorien yet, they were yet disguised and visible only in the background.
So I think it good strategy and not a feint at all.
Greeting, Forkbeard!

I understand your point, and have to agree that I don't see any confirmation about Sauron's certain knowledge of Ring's location.

But let’s use a logistic, as you are saying. :)
I am certain that through his informants Sauron knew the exact assemblage of the Ringbearer's party before they entered Moria and after.
And how many of the multiracial companies with hobbits was traveling around nowadays? Especially traveling in the direction the Fellowship supposed to go?
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to put two and two together.

And, if you have an “educated guess”, why you have to gamble taking a chance and putting the very essence of your existence to depend on actions of the treacherous person , “whose own servants either waylaid or misled the servants of Sauron“. Sauron was aware that Saruman were nursing just the same agenda as he did, “therefore he hid his knowledge… and concealed his wrath, biding his time” (UT,’ Hunt for the Ring).
In view of this you could hardly say that Sauron had a big trust in whatever help coming from Saruman.

And yet, according to your version, instead of taking the matter in his own hands by sending as much power as he can gather, including Nazguls, who already compromised themselves enough by riding through the populated areas of Gondor, Rohan , Shire and the Vales of Anduin, he asks Saruman to deliver the troops of very disciplined and high organized elite soldiers to the place of the possible repossessing of The Ring.
He sends twice less soldiers then Saruman, who throwed his best soldiers on a long and dangerous trek through the extremely hostile Rohan just for the faint possibility to find the Ring. It was not a big deal how many orcs will kill a Company, but it is a big deal which side will acquire The Prize item. Seems to me Saruman , not Sauron, did not want to take any chances in letting the Ring to slip through.

Logically, what is more important: to postpone an assault on Gondor in order to get your invincibility , or to throw all your forces on preparation for the war without sparing even a battalion to insure your victory?
And the absence of the bridge is poor excuse, because if Sauron could ferry “horses and raiment” for Nazguls, he could arrange the same transportation for his troops.
Besides, the South and North Deeps with long stony beaches and so many gravel-shoals in the river, that even the lightest elven-boats needed a careful steering, was a convenient dispatch between two shores, which for many times has been used by enemies of Gondor and Rohan , since you literally can cross the River by foot. :rolleyes:

Considering all this “pros” and “cons” I came to conclusion that is a VERY POOR, even negligent strategy on Sauron’s part, unless he was just pretending to be interested in the Ring by sending 40 orcs , who was already signed off as a military loss.

[Forkbeard]

Greeting, Forkbeard!

I understand your point, and have to agree that I don't see any confirmation about Sauron's certain knowledge of Ring's location.

But let’s use a logistic, as you are saying. :)
I am certain that through his informants Sauron knew the exact assemblage of the Ringbearer's party before they entered Moria and after.

I'm not convinced of that. Where would he learn such information before Moria? Not from the Nazgul. Nor from Elrond. Nor from Bill Ferny. 2 possible sources: the crebain from Dunland or the wolves who attacked them. Likely not the birds, who probably couldn't tell a halfling from a dwarf, and unlikely that Sauron would use Dunlending birds to go a spyin'. Those birds and wolves were likely Saruman's doing, and once has to assume that any information Saruman gathered he then gave to Sauron. But based on what we know, I'd say this is an unlikely scenario: Saruman probably kept it to himself in the hopes of getting the Ring himself. So again, where would Sauron get this information from?

And aftert? Again, source of the information? But even if he did know after Moria, why would he suspect that this party was with the Ring? That a party of ancient allies was traveling southward--ok; that said party stopped in Lorien--ruled by one of his ancient enemies, ok; that said party may in fact be headed to other ancient enemy HQ, Minas Tirith. As far as he knows, this has nothing to do with the Ring but instead the old alliances trying to reform to face him down. Once the "halflings" had carried the Ring off to Elrond's place, another ancient enemy and stronghold, why would he assume that this party of 9 carried the Ring with them? If they had the RIng, were I Sauron, I would suppose that they would send a troop of Glorfindel's with it, and of course Sauron thinks that what they want the Ring for is to try and master it--so if Saruman's treachery is known to Elrond, it apparently isn't to Galadriel or Rohan yet since they've done nothing to counteract it. So that's safe. If they had the Ring, they might be carrying it to Galadriel who might try and master it and throw him down, so by the time we get to Sarn Gebir, if the Ring ever left Elrond and Glorfindel, Gandalf or Galadriel surely took it to master it, they would surely be unable to reject it nor would they want to. What reason would he have to think that a halfling still carried such an important item and that it was there on the Anduin within his reach? I can think of no reason why he should think that.


And how many of the multiracial companies with hobbits was traveling around nowadays? Especially traveling in the direction the Fellowship supposed to go?
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to put two and two together.

You have to assume though that Sauron knows that a halfling is still the principal bearer of the ring. After all, the original ring bearer made a pretty good run right to Gandalf and Elrond, and since Sauron has no idea what Gandalf sees in these halflings, they must be some sort of servants (and if Sauron has the kind of knowledge you ascribe to him, he'll have noted the pack pony and cook gear of one of the little people, so unquestionably a servent of Gandalf's. And why would they indeed bring the ring with them? Surely what they want is the Ring's power and to replace him--who in Middle Earth would want to do that: Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf, Saruman--but Saruman betrayed his friend, so that leaves the other 3. Beyond the Misty Mtns they are too far away for Sauron to mount an effective force and find them in the wilderness, so if they even have the ring with them still they are making for Lorien and Galadriel....so again, every assumption would lead an intelligent being to assume that by the time we get to breaking of the Fellowship that the Ring is somewhere else.

Interracial group traveling southward? Well, dwarves and elves were once allied against him, elves and men were once allied against him. They obviously are attempting to renew those ancient alliances and make a last stand. Halflings with them? One of two possibilities there--since undoubtedly the wounded one stayed behind: servants or bow-men (remembering that the Shire had sent 100 archers to the North Kingdom's defense agains the Witch King).

And, if you have an “educated guess”, why you have to gamble taking a chance and putting the very essence of your existence to depend on actions of the treacherous person , “whose own servants either waylaid or misled the servants of Sauron“. Sauron was aware that Saruman were nursing just the same agenda as he did, “therefore he hid his knowledge… and concealed his wrath, biding his time” (UT,’ Hunt for the Ring).
In view of this you could hardly say that Sauron had a big trust in whatever help coming from Saruman.

Trust and trust. That is, Sauron had the Nine and it is doubtful that Saruman could have withstood a direct onslaught of all Nine on his home if he should succeed. SAuron believes in TT that Saruman will give Pippin up easily by sending just one Nazgul--so i don't think that he had serious concerns that direction. He'd deal with Saruman later, but no real concerns that Saruman would nab the Ring if available, and if he did, easily taken care of.

And yet, according to your version, instead of taking the matter in his own hands by sending as much power as he can gather, including Nazguls, who already compromised themselves enough by riding through the populated areas of Gondor, Rohan , Shire and the Vales of Anduin, he asks Saruman to deliver the troops of very disciplined and high organized elite soldiers to the place of the possible repossessing of The Ring.

We don;t know that. No one had seen the Nazgul in a millenia. They most likely rode through Rohan at night, and scared everyone witless, but they weren't exactly revealed either. Same in the North, other than Elrond and Co. no one would know a Nazgul when they saw one, and certainly wouldn't be hightailing it south to Gondor and Rohan to tell them. So not too big a problem there. On the other hand, becomes a bigger problem when they're back and marshalling forces in secret for major offensives--one doesn't usually want one's enemies knowing what one is up to.

But we come full circle: from your point of view Sauron should have extended more power and tipped his hand to retrieve the Ring which he should have known or at least suspected was carried by Frodo. My view is exactly the opposite, given the nature of the Ring and Sauron's own thought, he would think that one of the great would take the Ring and try and master it--Elrond had it in his house--if it ever left there, it was with Gandalf, and once Gandalf died, and if he didn't take it to the depths of Moria with him, then it went to Lorien and Galadriel. Why on earth would he think that a hobbit still carried it down the river?


He sends twice less soldiers then Saruman, who throwed his best soldiers on a long and dangerous trek through the extremely hostile Rohan just for the faint possibility to find the Ring.

Rohan wasn't all that hostile--remenber that Wormtongue has control of Theoden who ordered that that troop of orcs be left alone---Eomer disobeyed direct orders on the orc's return journey So Saruman had little expectation of Rohan being hostile. And do remember too that Mordor orcs were in that company too-they didn't arrive separately or leave separately--they all came together, they all left together, and for a long way into Rohan their path lay together. This suggests coordination at the higher levels, which means S and S.

[Forkbeard]

To continue:

It was not a big deal how many orcs will kill a Company, but it is a big deal which side will acquire The Prize item. Seems to me Saruman , not Sauron, did not want to take any chances in letting the Ring to slip through.

Probably on orders from Sauron...see above. Though Sauron would eventually "take care of" Saruman for plotting etc, one can not deny that on the face of it, Saruman was Sauron's lieutenant.

Must go, will try to complete my answer tomorrow.

FB

[Fenir_LacDanan]

it just seems that you never appreciate me, or call me any more...
Sometimes, I dont know why I bother posting....

:D

[Forkbeard]

Top o' the mornin' to y'all:

Olmer, somewhere in your post you made the point that if Sauron could get the nine and their steeds across the Anduin surely he could get a troop or two of orcs across. But that isn't true at all. Getting 9 very lightly armored wraiths and nine horses across the river is a wholly different enterprise than getting a troop of heavily armored orcs across, and the larger the unit, the larger the logistical problem to overcome. Besides, the case of the nine there was plenty of time to plan....Sauron had been seeking for some months the location of the Shire and had the luxury of once finding it of getting the 9 across quickly, but it didn't have to be done immediately. On the other hand, the company is first attacked on the River on the 23rd of Feb and the attack on Parth Galen on the 26th. So Sauron has less than 2.5 days to get a sizeable troop across the river and down to Parth Galen, the most likely spot since the Fellowship HAS to put in there or go over the falls of Rauros. Since the orcs are not boaters, the option of sending a troop in boats after them isn't likely; the area in which this is happening is not heavily wooded, so making makeshift rafts or pontoons isn't possible. So again, the materials have to be ported quickly from somewhere else. And in all this of course, he doesn't KNOW that the Ring is there, though he can be somewhat certain that this party KNOWS where the Ring is or has some information about it.


Logically, what is more important: to postpone an assault on Gondor in order to get your invincibility , or to throw all your forces on preparation for the war without sparing even a battalion to insure your victory?

Since, as we've seen, he doesn't know where the Ring is--and certainly has no reason to think its floating down the river, not usin a battalion to go after this hostile group(even if he could get a group so large across the river at that point) and tipping his hand and intentions too soon is good strategy. And again, why isn't 40 enough to kill 4? What's needed here is quick action--guerilla like action, which is exactly what we have.

Besides, the South and North Deeps with long stony beaches and so many gravel-shoals in the river, that even the lightest elven-boats needed a careful steering, was a convenient dispatch between two shores, which for many times has been used by enemies of Gondor and Rohan , since you literally can cross the River by foot.

I think you mean the Undeeps--but check how much further north these are than the Sarn Gebir where they are attacked the first time--quite a distance to cover on foot.

So all in all, I have to say that I disagree with you. :)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But the orcs won't have gone from Mordor to Moria during that time. Remember the eagles reported that Moria could still be free. They will have been sent to Moria before, maybe soon after the Nazgûl set out looking for the Shire. The reason for that coud be double-barelled. Remember the Nazgûl had visited the Lonely Mountain so they could have gathered news that the dwarves were trying to retake Moria. Sauron wasn't stupid. He'd know that Gandalf would want to get the Ring out of the Shire, and he thought that they'd want to get in to Gondor. Also, he may not have wanted the Fellowship to visit Lorien. You never know, they could have come out from Lorien with some elven warriors and he couldn't risk that, or them counselling with Galadriel.

I'm not convinced of that. Where would he learn such information before Moria? Not from the Nazgul.
Why not? The Nazgûl had to return to Mordor and I'm sure that they'd have told Sauron that the Ringbearer had entered Imladris, and Frodo felt a coldness on Caradhras which was surely a Nazgûl.

[Forkbeard]

But the orcs won't have gone from Mordor to Moria during that time. Remember the eagles reported that Moria could still be free.


Heya TD,
Not sure to whom you are responding in this paragraph, but thought I'd make a couple of points. But where and when did the Eagles report Moria "still be free"? The Eagles simply reported that they hadn't sighted anything of the 9 or any movements of the Enemy since the episode at the Fords. Where in that is there anything about Moria being free, even as a possibility? What is clear is that the Wise knew something evil lived in Moria, but not what in spite of Gandalf's and Aragorn both having travelled safely through, nor did they know that it had been reinhabited by the orcs, and Gloin's news seems new to them as well. SO I think Gandalf hoped that Moria was free enough for a small party to sneak through, but it isn't based on the Eagles.


They will have been sent to Moria before, maybe soon after the Nazgûl set out looking for the Shire. The reason for that coud be double-barelled. Remember the Nazgûl had visited the Lonely Mountain so they could have gathered news that the dwarves were trying to retake Moria.

This isn't possible, though. The "retaking" of Moria lasted less than 5 years according to the Book of Mazarbul (sp?), so 25 years before the Nine went to the Shire.


Sauron wasn't stupid. He'd know that Gandalf would want to get the Ring out of the Shire, and he thought that they'd want to get in to Gondor.

Why would he think specifically Gondor? He doesn't yet know about Aragorn--as far as he knows the centuries have taken care of both Elendil's lines and he need only take care of the remnants in Minas Tirith, the last of the Edain. So once it enters Rivendell, Gondor is a possibilitiy, but why not Elrond or Galadriel or Gandalf taking the Ring and trying to master it against him?


Also, he may not have wanted the Fellowship to visit Lorien. You never know, they could have come out from Lorien with some elven warriors and he couldn't risk that, or them counselling with Galadriel.
IF he knew that that is where they were going and IF he cared what a group of travelers on the north and west side of the Misty Mtns did.


Why not? The Nazgûl had to return to Mordor and I'm sure that they'd have told Sauron that the Ringbearer had entered Imladris, and Frodo felt a coldness on Caradhras which was surely a Nazgûl.

When the Nazgul return to Mordor, it is more than 2 months before the Fellowship is formed and leaves Rivendell. How on earth would the Nazgul would know the makeup of the Ringbearer's group before it was formed? And where are the Nazgul in the chapter "The Ring Goes South?"

I have to also question your statement about Frodo--I find no statement in the chapter on this, beyond Frodo freezing to death (the dream about warm and comfortable places is a sure sign that he was succumbing to the cold, believe it or not) as are all the others except Legolas. So I don't think we can put that down to the Nazgul either.

FB

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I meant when A shadow passed above the Company and Frodo would not say what he thought it was.

[Blackheart]

Hrmmm... Orc discussions aside, I don't think anyone would have gotten the one ring away from the balrog, once he had possesion of it.

The One not only contained some of Sauron's power, it was forged by Sauron as a way to tap into the power/will that Morgoth had invested into Arda.

In fact, a Balrog might have been Morgoth's first choice if he'd had a say in it. Easier for his influence to direct. Morgoth's will remained in Arda and was present in the the Third age (and probably is to this very day).

The thing about the ring was that it allowed one to, for all practical purposes, become an avatar of Morgoth... (assuming you had the power to weild it) The vala of lust,fear, pride, envy, fire and darkness. (No wonder the ring had such a pull).

A Balrog, backed by such power would have suddenly aquirred all the ambition, drive, lust for conquest, and even evil intelligence (assuming he were a rather dull balrog) that he needed to become a world ruling Tyrant...

I've always thought that the ultimate aim of Sauron, or any other replacement, would be to open the doors of night, and re-admit Morgoth to middle earth... Certainly an arduous undertaking, and one would need the entire resources of arda perhaps to do so... Not to mention finding a way to breach the barriers to Aman...

But there are hints that eventually it gets done...

[Forkbeard]

I meant when A shadow passed above the Company and Frodo would not say what he thought it was.

Oh, that was before Caradhras, while they're still in Hollin. It is unknown what that was, since no characters know and the author nowhere else tells us.

But I agree that it is at least possible that it was a Nazgul, although that begs some questions about the flying beasty the Nazgul ride--its one thing to fly a few hours between the Black Gate and Orthanc, its another to fly several hundred more leagues north in the winter weather.

More to the point though, even if a Nazgul, there's no indication that it "spotted" or discerned the Fellowship that night. We're told earlier that they can not see well in the natural world, and the shadow was high up and far off, so it didn't likely see them, nor does the text tell us it sensed them and flew closer for a better look by itself or its steed. Even if it did sense the Ring (see my comment above to Olmer) (and why not then try and take it or at least go in to see if it could take it), it doesn't follow that it then knew the makeup of the party, what it was intended to signify, and that Moria was their best choice.

FB

[Manveru]

mabye it was a nazgul that hadn't made it back to mordor after the flood. it was still getting some strength back after the disaster at the fords (maybe one of the lesser ones, or the lessest), it would have been invisible to the fellowship and frodo would have sensed the fear. after that it hurried back to mordor with his new news. or maybe he had stayed there to keep a watch on rivendell while the others went back to mordor. this is probably more believable actually because it was like 2 months since the fords.