What if.....Denethor survived

[Tuor of Gondolin]

I found this topic debated in another forum, and I have mused on it myself.
What if Minas Tirith and Denethor survived.
Two quotes
1) from LOTR
"I say to thee, Gandalf Mithrandir, i will not be thy tool! I am Steward of the House of Anarion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity."
2) In Letters(#183) "Denethor was tainted with mere politics: hence his failure, and his mistrust of Faramir. It had become his prime motive to preserve the polity of Gondor.....Denethor despised lesser men, and one may be sure did not distinguish between orcs and the allies of Mordor. If he had survived as victor, even without use of the Ring, he would have taken a long stride towards becoming himself a tyrant"

Actual hints in LOTR are really somewhat ambiguous about Denethor's theoretical final decision vis-a-vis Aragorn. He earlier told Boromir, impatient to be successor to a king and not just a steward:
Boromir: "How many hundreds of years needs it to make a steward a king, if the king returns not?"
Denethor: "In Gondor ten thousand years would not suffice."

Would Faramir (perhaps the key "swing" figure) have supported his father or Aragorn?
And what of the prince of Dol Amroth, the council, and Eomer?

Of course, it would be really interesting to include a survived Boromir, but that's probably just too much speculation.:)

And no, I don't think Gandalf would have smacked Denethor around. :rolleyes: :D

[mithrand1r]

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
And no, I don't think Gandalf would have smacked Denethor around. :rolleyes: :D

Why not. ;)

I think that given enough proof, time, and encouragement Denethor would have acknowledge the King and step down as ruler of Gondor.

I do not know if he would have remained as Steward to serve the new king. I doubt he would due to his pride.

[Valandil]

This actually makes an interesting twist to the alternative where Gimli and Aragorn accompany Frodo and Sam into Mordor. Supposing they're successful and Mordor falls - and they're still rescued or otherwise escape from Mount Doom - would it have been harder for Aragorn to have claimed the crown of Gondor? Even though what he had done would have been so significant in the downfall of their great Enemy, would it have garnered the same respect given him as a successful field general? Or would the response of the average Gondorian have been more like, "Well thankee, Mr. Ranger sir. That sure was an awful swell thing you done there!"?

Denethor having survived would have complicated this further. Make no mistake, Aragorn had every intent of claiming Gondor's throne. His way was made easier by the deaths of Boromir and Denethor, the submission of Faramir - and Aragorn's own, very public, successes. However, if those things had not happened, he would still have aspired to the kingship. He saw it as his birthright and his destiny.

Nor do I think Denethor would have cooperated. It would have taken a popular movement of the people of Gondor - including and especially among his highest advisors and generals (perhaps not likely, since they were close to him) - for him to have stepped quietly aside. He had a pride issue - and to him, the earlier refusal of the Council of Gondor to Arvedui - almost 1100 years before, followed by the situation whereby the Stewards began to rule 100 years after that, gave him all the justification and precedence he needed. Nothing had changed in those past 1000 years. If anything, the northern Dunedain were even MORE scattered, fewer and further diminished - and any claim they had by descent from Isildur, was even more lost to time.

Imagine a scenario where the Ring is successfully destroyed, followed by civil war in Gondor over the right to rule...

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally posted by Valandil
"to him, the earlier refusal of the Council of Gondor to Arvedui - almost 1100 years before, followed by the situation whereby the Stewards began to rule 100 years after that, gave him all the justification and precedence he needed. Nothing had changed in those past 1000 years. If anything, the northern Dunedain were even MORE scattered, fewer and further diminished - and any claim they had by descent from Isildur, was even more lost to time.

Imagine a scenario where the Ring is successfully destroyed, followed by civil war in Gondor over the right to rule..."
________________________________

Excellent point about Arvedui. Even with Boromir's death and Faramir's backing it could have been a near run thing. A new kinstrife wouldn't have been out of the question. In the scenario where Aragorn went to Mordor he wouldn't even have the friendship with Eomer. Of course, if Faramir made it clear he refused the succession as steward that might be a deciding factor, and maybe Legolas could bound with Imrahil?

Or Aragorn could show his kingship by getting the Army of the Dead to whomp Saruman, something Denethor obviously could not do. Or by leading a force to Rohan (perhaps fighting along with Eomer to liberate his land) to prove military ability---which was crucial in a Middle-earth type polity. In the First Age even great kings (Finrod Felagund and Turgon led their armies and weren't armchair generals.

Another point, since I think Val mentioned somewhere a foundness for maps. When looking at a map of Mordor you wonder why Faramir didn't get a few horses for Frodo and Sam, with a guide partway, and have them skirt southern Mordor and sneak in the "back door". There is a precedent in Frodo's family for such a move.:) Of course, all ways might be guarded, but skirting the southern Ephel Duath would seem more promising then visiting giant spiders.

[Olmer]

Interesting scenario! Nice obsevations.
I do't think that Aragorn under other circumstances would be so successful in coming in and claiming the throne of Gondor , because The Power to Rule is not such thing which would be handed to you at the first request, and the sword of Elendil is not an argument for a dubiously looking tramp. He knew wery well that ...a claim need to be established, and CLEAR proofs will be required " , otherwise the outcome would be like Valandil said:""Well thankee, Mr. Ranger sir":) So, he needed to come not as a claimant, but as a savior, which wouldn't happen if it will be no treat of Mordor.
On another hand his distinguished ID was not in the broken sword, but in the Stone of Erech, giving him a great power over dead Oathbreakers. But you can't summon them to fight without a war going on.
Either way he had a chances on the crown only in the time of unrest.
And he made really kingly desicion and proceed with plan like a king : without asking or informing anybody he instigates the war by letting Sauron know that the Ring is found and the heir of Isildur is walking and breathing on the Earth.
Besides, Aragorn had another powerful driving force - his determination to become worthy of the hand of Arwen, the princess who wouldn't be the wife of nobody but the King.

In the light of it I agree with Valandil, if the events would unravel the way which Tuor of Gondolin proposed, Denethor would face the more devastated civil war .

Any way, about the quote from the letter #183.
This is one of the reasons that, as I said, I prefer to look at the "original painting".
In his book Tolkien described Denethor as the man of honor, brave and noble, unusually sharp in perseption, even with some dry sence of humor, a real match to Gandalf. You see that he ruled quite successfully for about 40 years trying to keep intact falling apart kingdom. Under such circumstances to be a good politician and stern commander is crucial for survival. This is not to be pointed as a flaw.
And describing Denethor as a future tyrant, as J.R.R. did in the letter, contradict his own portray of the Last Steward of Gondor.

[Count Comfect]

I think that if Denethor had merely survived - that is, been in the state he is in immediately before killing himself, but not killed himself - he would have been thrust aside by the combination of popular will "the hands of a king are the hands of a healer" and other factors like Aragorn's proven ability to lead.
Now, a nonderanged Denethor (for I consider, as I have mentioned other places, that Denethor by the end is such) would have put up quite a fight. I think Aragorn would have won... but there might have been no Gondor left at the end of it.

[The Ben]

In short form, If Denethor lived, then there would be constant caos.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by The Ben
In short form, If Denethor lived, then there would be constant caos.

I don't think constant... and not a certainty either - but there was some kind of chance for a power struggle between two rivals. The outcome may have been heavily influenced by the actual manner of Aragorn's arrival on the scene. Don't know that Gondor would have been greatly hurt by it, as a nation... unless the lines were divided pretty equally.

[BeardofPants]

He would have had one kewl flaming beard. Like a pirate. :D

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Olmer
Any way, about the quote from the letter #183.
This is one of the reasons that, as I said, I prefer to look at the "original painting".
In his book Tolkien described Denethor as the man of honor, brave and noble, unusually sharp in perseption, even with some dry sence of humor, a real match to Gandalf. You see that he ruled quite successfully for about 40 years trying to keep intact falling apart kingdom. Under such circumstances to be a good politician and stern commander is crucial for survival. This is not to be pointed as a flaw.
And describing Denethor as a future tyrant, as J.R.R. did in the letter, contradict his own portray of the Last Steward of Gondor.
I think you forget the changes Denethor went through at the time of the War of the Ring. He had been a man of honour and a quite capable lord for his people in his life.

But with the death of Boromir that to him meant an end to his hopes of making his house into a monarchy; the despair of seeing an overpowering enemy at the gate and not to forget the mental pressure of Sauron through the palantir, he cracked. The idea that Gandalf was bringing in somebody to replace him (and who was just as capable and noble) probably didn't help inprove his state of mind.

If Denethor had lived through the siege and the pyre, I doubt he would have been much of his noble former self. I think that in this perspective Tolkien was quite right in judging Denethor as a future tyrant.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Eärniel

If Denethor had lived through the siege and the pyre, I doubt he would have been much of his noble former self.
Agree on if...
After Sauron had him "cracked" he wouldn't be his noble former himself without any doubt, quite possibly he would turned into a tyrant.
But there is "IF".
Denethor had the iron will and strong mind, and even after the death of his oldest and favorite son, Sauron still was wrestling with him without any success (hey, give the guy a credit, he was human contesting Maya, even Gandalf was chickening out at such perspective!)
Untill the last two days he was quite sane and at the command of his army.
The IF happened after Faramir's sad return from the battle-field. Even being a stern and seemingly uncaring father, deep inside Denethor loved and cared for his son, and seeing him nearly dead had crashed all his hopes for his future. The desperation to find what will happens to them in the future took him over and he looked into palantir, unaware that his state of mind not in the best shape. The result :manic - depressive psychosis.

If this unfortunate event never happened, I think he would be quite capable and successfull to stand up Aragorn-Gandalf United, because, after all, he was trusted and honourable ruler of Gondor for many years.
And who was Aragorn ? An outsider, who needs to prove himself worthy of his claim.
If somebody come with the deed on your house, will your family be happy to let this person in?

Apart from Denethor unwillingness to accept the descendant with very much diluted blood of Elendil (even as capable and noble as he is), the generals, advisers and just the whole population of Gondor would be quite suspicious and very unwilling to accept arnorean trump as theirs lord, unless he will prove his capability as master and commander.
Here comes interesting question: how?
Even if he and his dunedains would have united with Eomer and helped to fight against Saruman's army (if successfull), will it give him enough respect from Gondorians?
Where else he can show his undeniable proof of kinship by commanding of the Army of Dead if it's no war with Mordor?
Will theirs oath will be fulfilled, or will they even fight against, say, Saruman, Easterlings or Haradrim if theirs allegiance was to help in the war against the Black Master?