Saruman: alternate Middle-earth scenario

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Historians tend to hate "what if" scenarios (such as if Lee had won at Gettysburg or Harold at Hastings), buuut.....
inspired by a discussion of Gimli going with Frodo to Mordor:

If Aragorn and Gimli accompanied Frodo, the Ring is destroyed but Saruman might well hold a position in Rohan similar to that during the invasion by easterlings and Dunlendings and the Long Winter.
I don't think his forces would have melted away like Sauron's when the Ring was destroyed.

A possible scenario would be a protracted fight by Aragorn and elements of the Gondorites to first liberate the south and then assist Rohan. But 1) how to dispose of Saruman- in a strong position and presumably in control of both Orthanc and Helm's Deep.
2) would Gandalf help, or would his task be done with the destruction of the One Ring?
3) with Saruman's large army still mostly intact, how would the ents be involved?

[mithrand1r]

I think that the Ents (with some assistance to protect them from Saruman's mischief ;)) would be key in freeing territories under Saruman's control. Otherwise it would be a much longer protacted series of battles required to liberate the lands from Saruman's control.

It would be easier if they could get all the free peoples (Dwarfs, elves, etc.) to assist in liberating Rohan and Orthanc.

I do not know what Gandalf would do.

[gollum9630]

your saying what if aragorn and gimli went with frodo to mordor so we cam still presume that merry and pippin were caught my the orcs. You say nothing of legolas going with them so we can think he went after the orcs. Now, if the same things happen and merry and pippin escape into fangorn and meet treebeard, we must also think that entmoot occurs. more then likely they will still vote to attack saruman and then he will destroy orthanc anyways

[hectorberlioz]

hmm....but things would tend to happenly differently if the scenarios went the other way. Say, merry and pippin might have been carried immmeditately to orthanc, and would be prisoners ofr saruman. if the riders of rohan didnt slay them first....
hmm....this is all so confusing:confused: :eek: :D
and gollum, if merry and pippin hadnt met treebeard, we wouldnt be here would we?;)

[gollum9630]

lol, yes. But, the only thing that he/she changed was Aragorn and Gimli going with Frodo, so we must assume everything else stays the same.

A better scenario(sp) would of been if Boromir lived, becuase then Merry and Pippin probably would not of been captured, aragorn and gimli would of gone with Frodo and Sam, while the rest went to Gondor.

Or perhaps if Gandalf never fell in Moria. Would the Balrog of made pursuit, would the fellowship of broken, would they still go to Rohan to help out as Saruman attacked them.

There are so many what ifs that you can ask that by doing so you end up asking more in the process.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Good points above about events being interrelated (which is one reason I didn't specifically consider whether Gandalf survived Moria in the general scenario). The basic premise is that Saruman, perhaps because of Aragorn being in Mordor and a delay of the ents committment, has a general dominance in most of Rohan and Minhriath...then what?
This presents problems for the good guys even after the fall of Sauron.
1) Unlike Sauron's boys, I don't think Saruman's lads would necessarily lose heart. Remember, it was the loss of the Ring that collapsed his hold on his armies (and for that matter much more). Saruman did not have use of any of the great rings in building his power and so, I think, would be unaffected by the destruction of the one ring, and as a Maia without having put much of his power into a Ring he would, it seems to me, be as potent as ever.
2) Gondor and Rohan are much worse off with perhaps Minas Tirith all or partially destroyed, South Gondor in dispute.
3) Aragorn would need to establish authority in Gondor (although you could hypothesize that he meets Faramir in Ithilien and establishes a rapport, and Faramir survives the war.
And keep in mind that while Rohan and Gondor would be in fairly bad shape Rhovannion, Rivendell, and Lorien would be intact. And the elves, even if averse to more involvement in Middle-earth conflict, would have grave concern because of Saruman's threat to the elvish realms and, above all, his relative proximity to the Gray Havens and threat to destroy or occupy it. (The Shire would also be much worse off, but, militarily, would be relatively inconsequential.

Here's a thought. Use the army of the dead to take out Saruman's army?

By the way, last time I checked Tuor's a "he.":D

[barrelrider110]

Merry and Pippin's capture and eventual escape into Fangorn are independent of Aragorn's choice. The Ents would have entered the fray, but would Rohan have withstood Saruman's army? If not, Gondor would have fallen.

There is another BIG assumption here--that if Aragorn and Gimli went with Frodo that the ring would have been destroyed. I don't think it would have. Remember Gollum destroyed the ring, and if Aragorn had been present would Frodo have taken Gollum as guide? All crucial events that led to the destruction of the ring.

Although Aragorn second-guessed himself over his choice to follow Merry, Pippin, and the Orcs, he did make the right choice, and that is one of the ironies of the tale.

[Valandil]

So many other things could have been different - and yet, the outcome might have been much the same.

If Aragorn went with Frodo - he would not have looked into the palantir, and Sauron would not have launched his attack so quickly. While they would not have had Gollum to guide them, Aragorn had been in Mordor - and he might have come up with some OTHER way for them to get in. Maybe around the south - maybe aided in Ithilien by Faramir.

I can't see Aragorn going with them if Merry and Pippin had already been kidnapped. So either the foursome of Aragorn, Frodo, Sam and Gimli journey into Mordor, while Boromir takes Legolas, Pippin and Merry to Gondor (now THAT seems an unlikely foursome). Or - the kidnapping happens after Aragorn & Co cross the Anduin - in which case, Eomer's troops still kill the orcs, Merry and Pippin still go into Fangorn, which leads to Treebeard leading the Ents against Orthanc.

In either case, Gondor survives... whether because the Ents are destroying Orthanc while the orcs attack Rohan (and Rohan might have lost those at Helm's Deep if Theoden's group didn't come - but they may have come anyway - at Gandalf's prompting - and Gandalf may have still rounded up the remnants of those scattered - and helped save the day that same morning) - or because Sauron's attack is longer delayed and the Ring may have been destroyed even before his main army reached Minas Tirith.

[gollum9630]

Originally posted by barrelrider110
There is another BIG assumption here--that if Aragorn and Gimli went with Frodo that the ring would have been destroyed. I don't think it would have. Remember Gollum destroyed the ring, and if Aragorn had been present would Frodo have taken Gollum as guide? All crucial events that led to the destruction of the ring.


Well, if I was Aragorn and it came down to Frodo not throwing the ring into the fire I would push hime. It is better to sacrifice a friend to save humanity then to save a friend and doom humanity.

[hectorberlioz]

hmm...but ask yourselves, would Aragorn and co even reach mount doom?;) Aragorn is a man, and is more easily suseptible to the ring than a hobbit;). And besides, his presence in mordor would have been detected by sauron's forces, unlike two small hobbits...:).
so if aragorn and gimli had really gone with frodo, it would have been diseaster;)