The Lord of the Rings discussion: Chapters 3 and 4

[Tuor of Gondolin]

In these chapters you can see some of the work of JRRT’s in structuring LOTR and perhaps why it took him so long to write and rewrite, since each chapter in a sense builds on the others and brings in interrelated and interacting characters and places- each with their own history and concerns. Prior to these chapters first hobbits and then the Shire are depicted. Then the general history of Northwestern Middle-earth is briefly outlined together with a general idea (with a brooding atmosphere) of how that world is threatened. This chapter now brings that danger into focus and increases mysteries and fears. Not just western Middle-earth in general, but hobbits in the Shire itself are threatened by mysterious figures. Who are they? How dangerous are they? How did they find Frodo’s actual residence? Where is Gandalf? Has he been captured or killed? And once the gang of four leave the Shire virtually nothing is reported on the Shire or its residents until the end of the story. This remains a constant, nagging worry of the four hobbits. The prologue to the epic is over and the quest to rid Middle-earth of the ring, in some yet undetermined fashion, has begun.
One story device seen in these chapters which seems to add verisimilitude to the tale is the varying story pace. For example, too often in plots (one example being the Doctor Who TV programs) you’re presented with constant tension, action, fighting, etc., going on and on without letup. LOTR has a more believable feel in its alteration of conflict with periods of r and r. In these chapters witness the hobbits meeting and being given aid and rest by elves, who seem to be a “good� people but are also rather mysterious and with their own agenda, willing to give some help without becoming too involved but apparently planning on eventually sailing far away to some other place. Was it just by some coincidence that the hobbits and elves happened to meet? Then later the hobbits are sheltered and fed (and provided a measure of protection) by Farmer Maggot and his family. Even in wars soldiers don’t constantly fight, but experience periods of relative calm, sometimes longish. In a typical Hollywood-type action movie it might be all action from beginning to end, hardly believable.
It’s also interesting to note the growth of Frodo and Sam in these chapters. Unlike certain movies, which shall remain nameless, Frodo is a responsible and (to use a word I’m not crazy about) “pro-active� figure, seen as such by Gildor and Maggot, as he tries to work out a viable plan of action “on the fly� due to Gandalf’s being m.i.a. (not unlike Gandalf’s disappearance in The Hobbit). And Sam, again unlike his portrayal in a certain movie, begins to show an awareness of the outer world and his “calling� to be an agent in working out its fate. He does not decide that it is time to go back to the Shire once he has seen Gildor and his elves. Quite the contrary:
"I don't know how to say it, but after last night I feel different. I seem to see ahead, in a kind of way. I know we are going to take a very long road, into darkness; but I know I can't turn back. It isn't to see Elves now, nor dragons, nor mountains, that I want- I don't rightly know what I want: but I have something to do before the end, and it lies ahead, not in the Shire. I must see it through, sir, if you understand me."

Some questions:
1. Is foreshadowing evident in these chapters, particularly troubles in the Shire (i. e., the Scouring)?
2. How might the plot have been changed if Gildor’s people hadn’t been encountered at this point and lent their assistance (scaring away a Black Rider) and given Frodo their, rather limited, advice? (Limited because, after all, ask the elves for advice and they will say both no and yes).
3. To what extent do writers after JRRT owe him a debt for his use of literary description and maps in creating a believable “subcreated� world? In these two chapters (and many succeeding ones, including the next with the High Hedge and the Old Forest) the world envisioned seems to be as much an actor as the peoples and creatures in it. In a way this is an echo of JerseyDevil’s observation in Chapter 2 concerning the importance of seasons in LOTR.
Note the difference in depth between Middle-earth and Narnia (while Narnia is in its way good, I’ve read both aloud to fourth graders) the variation in subcreation is enormous, as are the too obvious theological allusions in Narnia, lacking Middle-earth’s subtleties.
4. A parallel to WW I in the four hobbits seems apparent. Frodo the young, intellectual Lieutenant, Sam, a gritty, unassuming noncom or batman doing much of the practical work of survival, and Merry and Pippin the privates. All four would much rather have stayed home, but slogged on to do their duty and try to save their people and their life-style. Oh, and Fatty Bolger keeping the home fires burning?
5. And, as an unanswered question which has no doubt bedeviled scholars for fifty years, how did they prepare the mushrooms Mrs. Maggot gave Frodo? Mushroom cheeseburgers, mushroom omelets, mushrooms stuffed with crabmeat? If so, with crabs presumably gained by barter, not fishing, after the cautionary tale of Drogo and Primula Baggins.
And mushroom devotees in the Northeastern United States needn't envy Frodo's mushroom bonanza since Chester County, Pa. is one of the largest mushroom growing areas in the world.:)

[Valandil]

Tuor - nice job! Thanks for your efforts. Comments:

Pacing: I saw one commentary on the book which described the continual cycles of 'leaving a place of security / getting into trouble / rescue / having a time of rest and restoration - including a big meal and fatherly advice' - or something like that.

Movie vs Book: I wouldn't get too down on the movie over the character development issues - there's just no way any movie can compare with what a book can potentially do on this and many other matters.

Maps, etc: I LOVE the maps! It's hard to really follow the story without them. I don't like the 'newer' Shire map in more recent editions... I like the older one (which either JRRT or Christopher Tolkien made, I imagine) that shows all the different towns, roads and woods of the Shire... the one that shows 'Nobottle'! :p :D

Setting as character: Tolkien gives very detailed descriptions, whether of seasons, landscape, weather or the food on the table. I think this makes his stories harder to read at first (we have to slow down from the pace of the world around us), but as we get used to it, that really 'sucks us in' and makes us feel like it's a real place - and that we want to be there! A friend of mine (who is also a fan) says the books are sort of like a 'travel-log' at times.

Mushrooms: I'll bet it was something simple: steamed or sautee'd (how do you spell that?) :)

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
For example, too often in plots (one example being the Doctor Who TV programs) you’re presented with constant tension, action, fighting, etc., going on and on without letup.

are you knocking the good doctor? :mad: ;)

great work!

i'll post some of my own thoughts when i have time later today

one more question that hit me... one would think that gildor had some knowledge of what was going on... hobbits being chased by nazgul is not exactly an everyday event ;)

does it seem strange, considering the importance of the matter that he did not offer to accompany the hobbits to rivendell?

i realize the "it is no longer our concern" matter... however, we discover later that he did take the time to inform tom bombadil, aragorn and people in rivendell of the hobbits, so he must have sent elves in that direction... and he is also still tarrying in the area many years later towards the end of the trilogy

obviously there is the matter of the plot, but do you think tolkien should have given a better excuse for gildor not offering more assistance?

[Olmer]

Here is my observation and feelings about the Third chapter.
Major points: near close encounter with Nazguls and Frodo is getting a foretaste of what kind of enemies he is running against , the first meeting with Elves.

The chapter begins with resumed Gandalf’s scheme of ring disappearance staged by him for Sauron’s behalf.
The public announcement that the Ring is gone was already made. Now came time for a real ring bearer to slip out quietly of the Shire.
But at this point Frodo is still doubtful and still unsettled about what he should do, and Gandalf gently, but surely nudging him in the right direction urging Frodo to leave the Shire for his own good in secrecy and soon. He unpersuasively suggests to make his aim for Rivendell and shrewdly gives him a false hope that the task to destroy the Ring after all may be assigned to somebody else, perfectly aware that the Ring already bonded with Frodo and he will never willingly give it to anyone .
So on this perspective unsophisticated and down-to-earth Shire folk was right on the target implying that Frodo’s leaving is “ a dark and yet unrevealed plot by Gandalf.�


Finally Frodo is leaving his home. It’s a quiet sadness in the about being abandon house, but in the same time somehow it is getting alienated from you, and rooms, which was peaceful and comfortable, now are giving foreboding feeling of gloom and darkness in contrast with an invitingly pleasant, starry night, making you to wish for sooner leave of the place, which gives you now an uncomfortable feeling.
The beginning of the trip seems like fun: all the way are singing songs. (“The road goes ever on�…now has a familiar sound for me, thanks to P. Jackson.), they are carefree lighting fires and setting no watch .
The waking up scene with Pippin thinking that he is still in the Bag End brings a smile, but also sheds a little light on Sam’s status in the company. At this point you clearly see that although Frodo (and Bilbo) treated Sam with respect, others ( including Frodo’s friends) considered him as person staying lower on social ladder, a footman, which is expected to serve them, and Sam certainly behaves like one.

Description of their traveling is so vivid that panoramic picture of the whole Shire is getting open right in front of you. Reading about Frodo’s last look at Hobbiton at night, comes in mind the painting of Ted Nasmith, which is, for me, exactly shows the setting and the mood.
The last sight (http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/nasmith/lastsight.jpg)
The first meeting with danger brought an increasing fear and the first feeling of the Ring’s treacherous work. But even after the second encounter with the Black Riders Frodo still can’t surmise that THE RING is the beacon for Nazguls, and they are not sniffing them out, but being drawn toward by the Ring.
It is sobering events for hobbits and readers alike. Even if Gandalf have had prepared us for what is ahead , here it took a frightening shape for the first time.

At the end of the chapter takes place the first company’s meeting with Firstborn, which gives feeling of encountering of some kind of lower-case gods. This is not just mere woods elves. This is company of the Exiles -the highest of Noldor“of the house of Finrod�, the Elves which once dwelled in Valinor under the blessed light of Elbereth -Varda, and therefore in appearance they are looking quite different from the ordinary elves :�the starlight glimmering on their hair and in their eyes…they bore no lights, yet as they walked a shimmer…seems to fall about their feet"Theirs ethereal appearance and good natured demeanor made a deep impact in Frodo and Co. hearts, they were catching every word which was said by the Wise-beyond-age, looking for so needed advise.

Did Frodo get what he was asking for - a counsel? In Frodo’s words -“ Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes�-
he heard basically the same, what Gandalf already told him, that he is apt for long and dangerous journey. But from his conversation with Gildor we found out a few interesting things.
The first is that Bilbo and Frodo had been under constant surveillance not only by Gandalf’s men, but as well by the Elves also.
It’s no surprise that Gildor already aware of Frodo’s mission. “The secret will not reach the Enemy from us�, says Gildor. Indeed… coming from the mouth of co-conspirator…Obviously it look like Gildor is well informed that Frodo left Hobbiton not for a little tour around Shire borders and his enemy is not just some dragon, host of orcs or even the Witch-king , he is against the one - and -only Enemy with capital letter -Sauron, which suggest that decision who will be sent on the Ring destruction quest had been made by Gandalf and Elves long before the counsel in the Rivendell.

So, if Frodo is already assigned to take this perilous road, why the High Elf can’t give him some inside advise, an observations based on many thousands years of experience?
Because Gildor has no knowledge on what extend Gandalf informed Frodo about his leading role in Gandalf’s well designed plan and he was afraid to hamper it by saying too much: “Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger�. This is why he is saying “…I do not give this counsel gladly� and therefore he is constantly sending him for Gandalf’s reference.
But here is also another reason: �The Elves have their own labors and sorrows, and they LITTLE CONCERNED with the ways of hobbits, or another creature upon earth.� In plain language it says that they are really don’t give a damn about what will happened to the folk of Middle-earth which make quite hypocritical all their later pretense about saving the World and helping to a Mankind. They are saving only themselves.
Reply “the flight of the Elves� tells us that they are not just leaving, but FLEEING, which arise an interesting question: what is the REAL reason of such rush?

At the end I want to remark on similarity with “The Hobbit� on an aftermath happening to folk in the elves company. On both accounts people were falling “at once into a dreamless slumber�, which suggest that among other “magic� capacities the elves had been able to project their influence on people via some hypnotic abilities.

And, finally, I 'm putting my favorite quotes:
“You step onto the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to. “
“Can fence yourself in but you cannot for ever fence it (the world) out “.
This quotes are gems, telling us in Tolkien’s words that every time as we are stepping out of the house we might walk into unknown adventure. Want it or not, but the wide world is constantly tries to pull you out of the “shell�.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

A few brief comments:

1) Yes, Gildor did seem rather needlessly ambiguous and could have been more helpful and informative, presumably Tolkien wanted to keep the mystery/confusion element high for the hobbits, as with Trotter appearing later.

2)Yes, maps are fascinating, and vital in LOTR. The first time I read FOTR I had a small paperback and could hardly find and see some places on Frodo's journeys from Hobbiton arounf Middle-earth. And Tolkien was right in one of his comments (in Humphrey Carpenter's"Biography") about their importance:

Another worry was the matter of the map, still not dealt with; or rather the maps, for an additional plan of the Shire was now thought to be necessary. 'I am stumped,' Tolkien wrote in October 1953. 'Indeed in a panic. They are essential; and urgent; but I just cannot get them done.' In the end he handed over the job to his original map-maker, Christopher"

3) Ripping the Doctor? Never, especially Tom Baker and Jon Pertwe (sadly, recently deceased). But I'd like to have seen a bit more interaction with companions, even at the expense of plot (epecially Romanavaratnaluna I (sp.?) and the sham American (Peri).:D Although my favorite companion was Sarah Jane.
Mudd on original Star Trek: "Male androids? I suppose they have their uses."

edited:
4) Hmm, I see Olmer is still on his interesting, if controversial, interpretation of Gandalf.
_________________________________
(Originally posted by BrownJenkins)
"he (Gildor) is also still tarrying in the area many years later towards the end of the trilogy".

An interesting look at the elf different perception of time. In Chapter 4 you have the impression that Gildor will be leaving Middle-earth in a matter of days or weeks, yet he still tarries years later, but to elves events between frodo leaving the Shire and leaving Middle-earth may seem like the blink of an eye.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
Although my favorite companion was Sarah Jane.

zoe heriot ;)

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Valandil
I don't like the 'newer' Shire map in more recent editions...

There are newer maps? :confused: I have three versions of LOTR, and they all have the Tolkien maps.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
1. Is foreshadowing evident in these chapters, particularly troubles in the Shire (i. e., the Scouring)?

I would say somewhat, yes. There is no overt foreshadowing of Doom, per se, but there is a sense that things are changing.

2. How might the plot have been changed if Gildor’s people hadn’t been encountered at this point and lent their assistance...

I don't know if it would have been changed that much. Frodo knew enough that he had to stay off the main roads, and he had a semi-plan layed out already. The advice that the elves gave him was to follow what he'd already put in place... don't go alone, go with friends, be wary of enemies, try to find gandalf, etc. Mayhaps, if they hadn't met the elves, at that point, Sam might not have 'matured', and they wouldn't've deviated so far off their path.


3. To what extent do writers after JRRT owe him a debt for his use of literary description and maps in creating a believable “subcreated� world?

I would say a pretty HUGE debt. Most fantasy I read come with maps drawn in the same style as the Tolkien maps. However, quite a lot of fantasy derives from D&D and Forgotten Realms literature as well, which, whilst its roots can be traced back to Tolkien, have evolved into something altogether different. It's interesting to not that Tolkiens LOTR doesn't not strictly fall into D&D categories (eg, Hobbits as 'rogues'.)

4. A parallel to WW I in the four hobbits seems apparent.

Can't say I ever thought about this particular comparison. I've always just perceived this grouping in terms of the social implications, ie, Frodo as the nobility, and sam as a commoner.

5. And, as an unanswered question which has no doubt bedeviled scholars for fifty years, how did they prepare the mushrooms Mrs. Maggot gave Frodo?

Well, I'd say that they would be pan-fried mushrooms.

[mithrand1r]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
There are newer maps? :confused: I have three versions of LOTR, and they all have the Tolkien maps.

Probably refering to the new maps that have "Frodotopia" and "Denenthoria" as well as listing the new Wallymart super store in Gondor and "Mordorama" Holloween superstore in Mirkwood.

;)

[BeardofPants]

*pantses Mithrand1r* Don't be so silly. :mad: :p Now, if someone wants to answer my question RE: maps....?

Oh, and we all know that Jamie was the best Dr. Who companion. :p (to Troughton's Doctor, concurrently with Zoe.)

[Valandil]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
...Now, if someone wants to answer my question RE: maps....?


Yes - my more recent paperback editions have maps by (EDIT: Shelley Shapiro) - they generally have less detail than the ones by Christopher Tolkien. I don't even know why they bothered putting in the map of the Shire - and I think it's not in the equivalent ones I see on the shelves now.

(sorry - bleary eyed up early and got the name wrong at first)

[GrayMouser]

What I like most about these chapters, after many rereadings, is the descriptions of the walking and the scenery.

I grew up in Canada, and the hiking and camping I did there was all basically wilderness. It wasn't till years after I read LotR that I did some walking in England -my mother and sister live there, and both were/are avid 'ramblers' - that I came to appreciate what I had previously scorned.

Country lanes, rolling hills, farmhouses and villages in the distance- and, of course, a welcoming pub, all of which have "the best beer in the district":)

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Well, I'd say that they would be pan-fried mushrooms.
In butter and garlic, of course, and served with (not on) toast :D

I love these chapters; nice summary, Tuor, and good comments by all. I've always liked walking, especially in the evening and at night, and JRRT captures exactly why.

I'd go as far as to say that the descriptions of walking and the countryside are what really bring the story to life. No longer are we being told it in the third person after the fact; now we're seeing it "live" as the hobbits walk through it.

To be fair to Gildor, he does say that he doesn't know why the Enemy is pursuing Frodo, and Frodo doesn't tell him.

However, what do people think about: In this meeting there may be more than chance

[Valandil]

Originally posted by The Gaffer

However, what do people think about:
In this meeting there may be more than chance


Just enough behind in my reading that I just read this yesterday!

I think it was what was 'supposed to happen' - ie, intervention of what some would call 'fate' - but which I think Tolkien is strongly suggesting was Iluvatar at work 'behind the scenes' - responding to Frodo's faithfulness and obedience to protect him in a difficult situation.

I mean think about it, of all the moments for a group of Elves, of the people of Finrod, to come tromping through the woods of the Shire... they happen by just when a Black Rider has dismounted and is snuffling his way up the side of the road to where Frodo, Pippin and Sam are hiding! Coincidence? :)

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally posted by Valandil
I think it was what was 'supposed to happen' - ie, intervention of what some would call 'fate' - but which I think Tolkien is strongly suggesting was Iluvatar at work 'behind the scenes' - responding to Frodo's faithfulness and obedience to protect him in a difficult situation.
_____________________________

This illustrates what seems to me to be Tolkien's pre-Christian Christian-type view of Iluvatar's handling of free will and divine providence. Somewhere Gandalf says something to the effect "For my part I will not have wholly failed if something of beauty survives which may eventually resurface"---Agh! A really butchered reference:eek:

That is, if the good guys had failed and Sauron got the Ring there would have ensued a considerable period of unpleasantness for the ("good" and "bad" peoples of Middle-earth, but eventually and/or
1) discord would arise within Sauron's forces (Easterlings, Southrons, orcs, Dunlendings, etc.)
2) There would have been an enhanced "intrusion" of some kind by the Valar or their emissaries. (recall Gandalf being sent back "enhanced" after his original efforts essentially failed (in Moria) and Eru's taking and integrating Morgoth's tampering with the Music of the Ainur).

There would be severe consequences for Sauron's triumph, and a considerable period of his enjoying his success, but Eru would eventually see that a version of his overall plan got back on track, while still allowing for free will and good/bad consequences to flow from successful or unsuccessful results and decisions by peoples of Middle-earth. And resistance to Sauron might well be led by elements of the Easterlings and/or Southrons for various possible reasons/motivations. good and bad.

I recall in one of the Narnia books one of the "bad guys" actually does come over from "the dark side?":)

[The Gaffer]

Yes, time and again we see that Gandalf and the Elves don't believe in mere "luck".

As for who is the agent here, when we read LOTR for the first time, we don't know about Eru or the Valar or any of that stuff. The vague "bigger picture" that Gandalf referred to in the past tense when Bilbo found the Ring (or the Ring found him) is now in the present tense.

However, it seems to me that Gildor assumes that Frodo knows what he's talking about (though he doesn't want to guess the exact identity).

This implies two things: they are referring to some sort of shared beliefs about the world, and there may be more than one type of agent that can influence events in this way.

[Earniel]

These two are actually some of my favorite chapters. The first time I read LoTR again after seeing two of the movies, I couldn't get into it anymore, I had to force myself to read on. That is, until chapter 3. The last meal with the friends (and making sure the newcomers find nothing of the good wine left), the last checking of the packs, the leaving in the evening... and poof! I was hooked again! Perhaps because it reminded me so much of how we (my family and I) leave on holiday each year: saying goodbye to the house for a while, leaving in the evening to avoid the traffic but now I'm degressing.

Anyway, since then, the actual book always seems to begin here for me, at chapter 3. I'm also quite fond of the scene where they meet and stay with Gildor's company because I can picture it in my mind so perfectly! I think this scene is often greatly underappreciated. I also like the atmosphere of the Elves, Tolkien succeeds in making them more than pretty people with (wether or not) pointy ears. You get a glimpse of their depth, their preferrence and tendecy for merriment, and yet their underlying sadness that their time has passed.

Furthermore, these two chapters have a real hobbit-y feel to it, not just because it's nearly only about hobbits but you get the feeling that Tolkien was still working in the line of a sequal to 'The Hobbit'. Especially in reference to the fox that comes across the sleeping hobbits, that part reminded me strongly of 'The Hobbit'.

But the part where LoTR starts to be different from 'The Hobbit' is in the building-up tension of the black riders and their unknown motifs. I don't think I've read a book where the tension gets so evenly built up as in LoTR with the dark riders on the tail of the three hobbits.

I think I'll stop rambling now. :p

*nudges everyone until they're awake again* ;)

[Valandil]

Two other things I took note of in recent reading of Chapter 3:

First - when Frodo, Pippin and Sam left Bag End, I paid more careful attention and noticed that they actually started out going WEST and then skirted south over the road and into 'Tookland'. For some reason (I guess thinking 'shortest distance between two points - and knowing they're headed for Buckland) I had always thought they first went east. In general I'm paying more attention this time to minutia (SP?) in descriptions of the lay of the land, how their path went, etc.

Second - the first morning of their hike, after they wake up and have a little conversation, JRRT goes into some detail about how Frodo and Pippin go down to a spring, fill the water bottles, etc. Adds ABSOLUTELY nothing to the development of the plot or story or whatever, but it's just great! Just another 'detailed' part to describe what happens in such a way that it pulls you in a little more... makes you feel more connected with what's happening, more like you could be there. It's not just, 'the hobbits woke up, broke camp and continued walking down the road.'

[Artanis]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
However, it seems to me that Gildor assumes that Frodo knows what he's talking about (though he doesn't want to guess the exact identity).

This implies two things: they are referring to some sort of shared beliefs about the world, and there may be more than one type of agent that can influence events in this way. I wonder if this was common knowledge, or beliefs if you wish, among Hobbits, or if it was shared by Frodo because of his and Bilbo's friendship with Gandalf.

Originally posted by Valandil
Second - the first morning of their hike, after they wake up and have a little conversation, JRRT goes into some detail about how Frodo and Pippin go down to a spring, fill the water bottles, etc. Adds ABSOLUTELY nothing to the development of the plot or story or whatever, but it's just great! Just another 'detailed' part to describe what happens in such a way that it pulls you in a little more... makes you feel more connected with what's happening, more like you could be there. It's not just, 'the hobbits woke up, broke camp and continued walking down the road.'Perhaps the purpose of this and similar episodes are to build the characters. I'm always completely taken in by Pippin when I read these chapters from the Shire. He's so cute! :p :D And I always feel sorry for Merry, because he misses all the fun and the adventures which the other three Hobbits experience on their way to Buckland.

[Valandil]

I also liked the early chapter 4 exchange between Pippin and Frodo, which ended like this...

Pippin: "Did you find out anything about them from Gildor?"
Frodo: "Not much - only hints and riddles."
Pippin: "Did you ask about the sniffing?"
Frodo: "We didn't discuss it."
Pippin: "You should have. I am sure it is very important."
Frodo: "In that case I am sure Gildor would have refused to explain it..."

:p :D

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Valandil's quote above (Frodo/Pippin) is actually quite revealing about Frodo's character (and, parenthetically, how PJ's movie got it wrong).
Frodo has some knowledge (presumably from Bilbo) about elvish history, character, and language. He is a responsible agent, able, to some extent, to read others motives and intentions, and even react with bemusement and objectivity to frustrating and/or unexpected situations. In a way, he's had to grow up when Gandalf isn't there rather like Bilbo in The Hobbit.
I don't recall any mention by JRRT anywhere of Bilbo's education of Frodo, but his "home schooling" must have been remarkably
deep, not just for a hobbit but for anyone of the late Third Age.

Speaking of which, were there any hobbit schools, or libraries?
Written literature was always relatively rare in pre-industrial societies, although given elvish longevity and scholarship, they would presumably have overcome this hurdle at least for themselves. Minas Tirith as the Library of Alexandria? And what of a similar library in Arnor?

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
.. his "home schooling" must have been remarkably
deep, not just for a hobbit but for anyone of the late Third Age.

And what of a similar library in Arnor?
Somehow in Frodo's description his unusially extensive schooling by Bilbo has been like brief skimming across the surface.
Thanks for specifically to point out on it one more time.

Library of Arnor?
Probably was burned down just like Carthange or Alexandria.
It said that Alexandria's books burned to heat the city's 600 public bath.
Imagine how much information without trace went up into smoke.
What a pity!

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
4. A parallel to WW I in the four hobbits seems apparent. Frodo the young, intellectual Lieutenant, Sam, a gritty, unassuming noncom or batman doing much of the practical work of survival, and Merry and Pippin the privates. All four would much rather have stayed home, but slogged on to do their duty and try to save their people and their life-style. Oh, and Fatty Bolger keeping the home fires burning?

It seems to me that Merry and Pippin are "upper class", like Frodo, rather than privates. These chapters establish Sam's subservient social position very clearly, and also start to show how it will be overturned by events.

For example, Pippin wakes up and starts ordering Sam about; Sam takes the orders but Frodo intervenes and kicks Pippin out of bed. There's also the comment Pippin makes about how Sam has taken more than his fair share of stuff.

Any thoughts?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Perhaps Pippin and Merry could be viewed as university students and Sam as a college scout, like those who didn't stay to graduate in WWI before enlisting, as there was pressure on JRRT to do.

Wonder what the mascots for SU (Shire University), Took Tech, and the College of the Buckland would be? Competitive sports would, of course, include golf.:D And the Eriador cup grudge match with Bree would probably produce golf hooligans.

[Forkbeard]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
It seems to me that Merry and Pippin are "upper class", like Frodo, rather than privates. These chapters establish Sam's subservient social position very clearly, and also start to show how it will be overturned by events.

For example, Pippin wakes up and starts ordering Sam about; Sam takes the orders but Frodo intervenes and kicks Pippin out of bed. There's also the comment Pippin makes about how Sam has taken more than his fair share of stuff.

Any thoughts?

Well, the Shire seems to me to like an English village at the beginning of the last century. You have your local gentry, your farmers, your shop keepers and tradesmen, and then your average low class. Sam seems to belong to the last, Frodo to the local gentry. Merry and Pippin also since they are from the Took and Brandybuck families, both of them more important than the Baggins (though Frodo is part of the family too).

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
It seems to me that Merry and Pippin are "upper class", Well yeah, they are the scions of the two highest aristocratic families in the shire, so far as we know, the only two such families with inheritable territorial power. Pipin, as the the heir of the Thain (the representavie of royal authority and Master of the shire muster) would in truth be the 'Prince of Hobbits" as called in gondor. The Bolgers are also metioned as aritocratic, but there is no formal metion of a heriditable title/authority such as Thain or Master of Buckland.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

To add a bit to LS's comments above:

From Robert Foster'sthe complete guide to Middle-earth:

MASTER OF BUCKLAND The head of the Brandybuck family. The authority of the Master was acknowledged in the Marish as well as in Buckland, but his rule was largely nominal. In FO 12 the Master of Buckland, who at that time was Meriadoc Brandybuck, was made a Counsellor of the North-Kingdom.
The Masters of Buckland had attributive titles added to their names, probably by the chroniclers.
Also called the Master of the Hall, snce the Master of Buckland lived in Brandy Hall.

[Olmer]

Since nobody can add something new, I decided to put my thoughts about Chapter IV, even if majority would find it too ridiculous for their academic taste. But if Tolkien quite unexpectedly for himself could read his book and be amused by finding a new interpretations of the written events (Letter 163)), then it quite possible that in his text you can find much more interpretation which could be missed by the professor .I amuse myself in the way just like Tolkien was doing some time ago.

So, the chapter begins with Frodo being noticeably upset about outcome of the meeting with Elves.Clearly, he was hoping to get some explanation of the recent frightful events and some advise on how to deal with it, but instead he got only �hints and riddles�. His trip, which from the beginning seemed like fun, now is turning out too dangerous not for him only, but for his happy , unsuspected companions. He feels responsible for their safety, but unable to come with any idea how to protect them. This why he is evasive and even bitter in answering seems unconcerned Pippin’s questions about the black riders.
�Did you find anything about them from Gildor?…I am sure it is very important.�
“ In that case I am sure Gildor would have refused to explain it�, said Frodo sharply.
But in spite of the solemn mood the end of their conversation brings a chuckle.
�I don’t want to answer a string of questions while I am eating. I want to think.�
“ Good heavens!� said Pippin “ At BREAKFAST?�
And later he was mocking on Frodo’s unusual for hobbits breakfast habit:
�We are only waiting for you to finish eating and THINKING.�

Next, I think, comes the very important part, which in future will affect the course of many events : Sam’s overnight change.
�Frodo looked at Sam rather startled, half expecting to see some outward sign of the odd change that seems to have come over him. It did not sound like the voice of the old Sam Gamgee that he thought he knew.� An uncomplicated gardener, who eagerly went out on this trip just for a sole purpose that he “dearly love to see� the elves, all of the sudden became totally devoted to the main cause. After the heart-to-heart talk with the Elves, who (not surprisingly) �seemed to know� that Frodo is going away �to take a very long road into darkness�, Sam “feel different� and he know that he �can’t turn back�. And, yes, he feels and behave differently.
�Don’t leave him�, the elves said to Sam, and after this suggestive order (we already know that the elves can induce an influence by theirs transfixing abilities), his devotion to the Master steady grew into something abnormal, comparable with Gollum’s manic-obsessive dependency. Even the Ring does not affect him! His watchfulness reaches such height that all the way to Mordor he, seems to me, doesn’t even sleep. In essence , he turned out into zealous never tiring (robotic) bodyguard. All this transformation will happen slowly over the time, but the roots of it was in the first meeting with the Elves.

Finally the company reaches farmer Maggot’s farmland, and here we found that Frodo has his own private fears which go back to his childhood. It was interesting to learn that young Frodo Baggins was not a quiet “Harry Potter� type little hobbit surrounded with books, but ’ one of the worst young rascals of Buckland.� But nevertheless Bilbo saw kid’s potentials and favor him out of all other his cousins.
During the meeting with an old farmer his childhood terror was lost and now he was sorry that because of it for so many years he �had missed a good friend�. And indeed this formidable at the first glance fellow is , down-to-earth, good natured, but brave farmer, who is living on “frontier� and he not afraid and know how to deal with troubles. Through his sharp observance we found out that Gandalf’s plan with Bilbo’s disappearance and then Frodo’s move out would be quite successful in throwing the Enemy’s spies off the track, because the Black Riders �as like it or not it is old Mr. Bilbo they want to hear of “ , and if old Gaffer would say that Mr. Baggins just disappeared (which is quite true) and didn’t blab out about Bucklebury, they would be quite lost.

Mushroom cooking dilemma? Of course, fried with “taters� mushrooms with sprinkle of fresh herb, preferably dill or parsley, will suit hobbit’s taste just perfectly.

[mithrand1r]

Originally posted by Olmer
Since nobody can add something new, I decided to put my thoughts about Chapter IV, . . .

Mushroom cooking dilemma? Of course, fried with “taters� mushrooms with sprinkle of fresh herb, preferably dill or parsley, will suit hobbit’s taste just perfectly.

Olmer,

What I enjoy about your thoughts on LOTR is that (at least from my perspective) there is some textual basis on which you base your theories concerning the motives and planning of characters in LOTR.

I do not really agree with the conclusions you reach via your reasoning. Though, I do think that it is well thought out.

I think that it generally runs the course of looking for more complicated explaination for everything (I use the term "everything" a bit loosely) when a simplier explanation is available.

I think your thoughts on mushrooms sound delightful. :)

[Lefty Scaevola]

Mushroom eh? Chop a small amount of bacon and reder in a pan, add some butter, olive oil, minced shallot, and chopped fresh Thyme (a wonderous match with mushrooms, remeber that if nothing else from this forum) put in sliced mushrooms, regular varities with some fancy/wild ones to add flavor(amazing what a few shitatke or morels can do), cook at as high a heat as you can get without burning the oil mixture, until they have given off some water and shrunk a bit, then a good slug of madeira wine, some slat and white pepper, high heat until the liquid is reduced to just a glaze.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Mushroom eh? Chop a small amount of bacon and reder in a pan, add some butter, olive oil, minced shallot, and chopped fresh Thyme (a wonderous match with mushrooms, remeber that if nothing else from this forum) put in sliced mushrooms, regular varities with some fancy/wild ones to add flavor(amazing what a few shitatke or morels can do), cook at as high a heat as you can get without burning the oil mixture, until they have given off some water and shrunk a bit, then a good slug of madeira wine, some slat and white pepper, high heat until the liquid is reduced to just a glaze.Ummmm .... do I get hungry ...... pretty please Lefty, may I come to your table? :)
Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
Speaking of which, were there any hobbit schools, or libraries?I doubt there were any common schools, from the Gaffer's remarks about Bilbo teaching Sam the letters, the ability to read was not considered necessary or even wanted among the lower class Hobbits. Though it seems like the upper class could read and write, so there must have been some sort of education, but maybe it was kept within the families.

[Lefty Scaevola]

The was no general public school system, the only public services being listed were the post and the sheriffs/borderers. There likely were private schools and some possibly some community public schools in the towns.

[Rían]

Reading about mushrooms reminded me of the bit I re-read just last night (I'm a bit behind in my re-reading) - a little line about Hobbits hunting. When Sam was talking about possibly seeing "Tree-men" in the Shire, and that his cousin Hal had seen one, he says "He works for Mr. Boffin at Overhill and goes up to the Northfarthing for the hunting." Sounds like an organized event, but I just can't picture hobbits hunting in a major organized fashion - I always pictured them just raising their meat. Perhaps the hunting consists of walking around a bit, then just coming back for the feast!

Anyhoo - chpts. 3 and 4 ...

I love that little part about Pippin getting water, too, Valandil. It just makes you feel more "there" and also makes you connect with the characters more.

And I always wondered about Gildor, too - seems a bit strange that he didn't help more, yet took the time and trouble to "spread the word" about Frodo. Or maybe this is another evidence of the "chance" happenings that are in the book - maybe Gildor and co. bumped into a major group of Elves heading back to Rivendell the next day and filled them in ...

I like how Frodo wanted to leave in the autumn on their birthday - how it somehow seemed the "proper" day to set out. And that little line how they left the washing-up for Lobelia :D and Sam saying farewell to the beer-barrel in the cellar.

The Black Riders were just masterful - really creepy!

And what in the world did Gildor's people do with all the dishes? ("Some went to and fro bearing cups and pouring drink; others brought food on heaped plates and dishes.") Did they leave the washing-up for the forest animals, or do they use biodegradable dishes? I've always wondered...

[Valandil]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
...about Hobbits hunting. When Sam was talking about possibly seeing "Tree-men" in the Shire, and that his cousin Hal had seen one, he says "He works for Mr. Boffin at Overhill and goes up to the Northfarthing for the hunting." Sounds like an organized event, but I just can't picture hobbits hunting in a major organized fashion - I always pictured them just raising their meat. Perhaps the hunting consists of walking around a bit, then just coming back for the feast!

Hmmm... I never thought about it much either. On the other hand though, Sam was familiar with 'stewed rabbit' - and I don't know if they would raise rabbits or not. I expect they likely hunted small game like rabbits and squirrels... maybe foul like geese and quail - maybe even an occasional 'big' animal like a deer or boar??? They were good with arrows, right?

Originally posted by RÃ*an
And what in the world did Gildor's people do with all the dishes? ("Some went to and fro bearing cups and pouring drink; others brought food on heaped plates and dishes.") Did they leave the washing-up for the forest animals, or do they use biodegradable dishes? I've always wondered...

Maybe they had 'stashes' of dishes at all their regular 'stopping points'. And maybe the food and drink were SO good, nothing was left to clean off the plate! :D :p

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Valandil
Maybe they had 'stashes' of dishes at all their regular 'stopping points'. And maybe the food and drink were SO good, nothing was left to clean off the plate! :D :p

Very possible. I'm thinking, since they obviously went to that place from time to time, I'm not surprised if they would have hidden some items there that they could take out and use on their next visit.

[Lefty Scaevola]

They carried much with them. Standard USA army pack is about 70 pounds, including a mess kit. Noldor would avaerge large (if they had not "faded" too much), were less subject to ills like blisters and so forth, and ought to be able to carry even more.

[Rían]

I guess so - but Elves lugging backpacks with little water bottles hanging off them and pans bumping around just doesn't fit into my mental picture :(

Of course, Fingon went into Mordor lugging his harp ...

[Lizra]

I imagine the "dishes" being very organic...foldable, bendable, amazing sorts of woven leaf, bark, or grass-like materials, that pack away to lightweight nothingness...you know, sort of "magic"! :)

[mithrand1r]

Originally posted by Lizra
I imagine the "dishes" being very organic...foldable, bendable, amazing sorts of woven leaf, bark, or grass-like materials, that pack away to lightweight nothingness...you know, sort of "magic"! :)


Elven magic.

Similar to elves that live in a tree and bake cookies. ;)

Actually, I do not see why there couldn't be one or more elves that are similar to sam and carry enough cooking/eating gear with them.

Maybe the elves are able to make makeshift utensils from the natural surroundings.

Maybe they have a stash of equipment (as some suggested) similar to the rangers with their wood supplies.


Of course we are probably just reading too much in to the story and not just enjoying the story for what it is. A story. ;):p

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Lizra
I imagine the "dishes" being very organic...foldable, bendable, amazing sorts of woven leaf, bark, or grass-like materials, that pack away to lightweight nothingness...you know, sort of "magic"! :)

Patent those and you could make a mint! ;)

[Rían]

Originally posted by Lizra
I imagine the "dishes" being very organic...foldable, bendable, amazing sorts of woven leaf, bark, or grass-like materials, that pack away to lightweight nothingness...you know, sort of "magic"! :) Cool image!

[Valandil]

Oh, almost forgot to give my "quotable quotes" from these chapters:

"The wide world is all about you: you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out." - Gildor Inglorion

"Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill" - Gildor Inglorion

"Courage is found in unlikely places" - Gildor Inglorion

"They seem above my likes and dislikes, so to speak. It don't seem to matter what I think about them. They are quite different from what I expected - so old and young, and so gay and sad, as it were." - Samwise Gamgee

[cee2lee2]

"bump" for other latecomers, like me :)