Ranks

[Sister Golden Hair]

Does Tolkien ever give military ranks to the good guys?

I can only remember especially in the Sil that the bad guys were the ones with military ranks. Such as Sauron being called Morgoth's 'lieutenant,' and Gothmog being called 'high captian of Angband.'

[brownjenkins]

i remember elrond being called the "herald" of gil-galad during the last alliance... i'm also pretty sure a few ranks were mentioned in the minas tirith chapters, though i haven't read them recently enough to have them at the top of my head

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Rohan, at least, had some.
From Unfinished Tales:

"Marshall of the Mark (or Riddermark) was the highest military rank and the title of the King's lieutenants (originally three), commanders of the royal forces of fully equipped and trained Riders. The First Marshal's ward was the capital, Edoras, and the adjacent King's Lands (including Harrowdale). He commanded the Riders of the Muster of Edoras, drawn from this ward, and from some parts of the West-mark and East-mark* for which Edoras was the most convenient place of assembly. The Second and Third Marshals were assigned commands according to the needs of the time.

*These were terms only used with reference to military organization. Their boundary was the Snowbourn River to its junction with the Entwash, and thence north along the Entwash."

[Valandil]

'Captain' is a term used quite loosely in Numenor and Gondor to indicate a leader. I think that Amandil and Elendil were said to be great ship captains of Numenor (which I think refers to leading a force of ships - not captaining a single ship necessarily) - Boromir and Faramir are referred to as 'captains' - and, without checking, I think Thorongil was also.

Beyond that, I imagine there could well have been stratified ranks throughout the military structures, but they are simply not spelled out to the reader. It would make sense.

I wonder which society in world history first used 'ranks' for their military. Was it Rome? Persia? Ancient Babylon or Egypt?

[Fat middle]

*Wasn't Eonwe also Manwe's herald?

*In Minas Tirith there were certainly ranks, but I cannot remember now it well. Wasn't Faramir also a Captain?

[zinnite]

Hama was referred to as the captain of Theoden's guard, though whether that was an actual title isn't clear

[Artanis]

The Elves used captain ranks. I think Mablung was referred to as Chief captain of Thingol, and Echtelion and Glorfindel were both captains of King Turgon.

[Rog of the Hammer]

That is a good question, though. The term 'Captain' is used quite liberally, like you said, but I think it may be a valid rank in some cases. Tolkien was in the military, so he had to have had a pretty good idea of rank structure, and maybe it was this knowledge that is the reason for the rather vague references to rank. Maybe rank was so integral to him that he just overlooked it in his stories. But, it doesnt seem like something that he would do, his attention to detail usually being quite astute. He probably didnt include a elaborate rank structure because he managed to convey all he needed to by saying 'Captains' and 'Lieutanants'. Too much rank might become bulky and confusing to the average reader, espically in such an involved work as the Silmarillion, where you already have tons of names, and can be confusing without rank.

By the way, I am Rog.

[Lefty Scaevola]

The Military organizations of ME mostly apper to be feudal in nature, and such title as are given are cosistant with fedalism. There would not be a solid hierarchal officer organiztion such as in mordern armies. There would be lords with their knights and men at arms and militia levies. A lord with a lot of men would divide them into companies of men at arms, and appoint captains of the companies, usuall a knight or a underlord. When assembled into a large army there would be a noticable lack of formal intermediate grouping of forces. There would be ah hoc groupings under an underlord or senior captain when on the march or arayed on the battle filed. Command fuction and staff fuction would be very cetranlized with the chief handling details which in a modern armybe be subortianted to inetmediate and lower officers. There would not be officer grades (ranks) as you know them in a mordern army, but position of command where you status and esnigns are dertermined by the position you are appointed to, rather than by a a rank of a position in an officer corps. The chief lieutenats of a king, steward, or other kingdom master, would be likely either be close kin, or hereditary titles.

[Menelvagor]

yet Gondor and many elven realms (haven't read the Sil in a while, forgive me) all had pretty substantial armies of their own, presumably large enough to require more internal organization and delegation of command. The term 'Captain' does seem rather nebulous though. For instance, both Mablung of the Ithilien guard and Faramir are called Captain, even though Faramir is clearly of a much higher rank. Perhaps there are secondary parts to the ranks that are left off for simplicity of language? "Captain 1st Class" "Captain 2nd Class" etc.?

[Draken]

I'm with Lefty - ME armies have a very feudal feel (on the part of the free people anway) with Captain used in it's original sense - a person at the head of a group (the root being 'caput' I believe, Latin for head). A Captain may or may not appoint a 2nd in command to assist him with the catch-all title of lieutenant - and that's a stratified as ranks get 'in the field'.

Where bands of fighters team up into an army, the rules of that society would decide the pecking order of the various captains and who would have overall command: king above prince, prince above less aristocracy, etc.

[Lefty Scaevola]

The central portions of the Dark Forces, either those of Angband or Barad Dur, do have some suggestion of a more professional modern organization. Metions of 'battalions" and such, but still an over all feudal feel, particularly with outlying forces and allies.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

I came across this passage in LOTR which hints at a somewhat structured rank system in Gondor (as there seems to have been in Rohan).

""Nay, nay," Beregond laughed. "I am no captain. Neither office nor rank nor lordship have I, being but a plain man of arms of the Third Company of the Citadel."

[Lefty Scaevola]

'officers' in a feudal company would be the captain, sometimes a couple of lieutenants (meaning any officer other than the captain) , some sargeants, who do most of the interation with the men, and specialists such as a master at arms and an armorer.