The Lord of the Rings discussion: Chapter 2, The Shadow of the Past

[jerseydevil]

Here is the long expected and anticipated chapter summary for "The Shadow of the Past". Sorry it took so long, but I got tied up with various things, although I continued to work on it. I hope it's enjoyable for everyone and that it has enough discussion points. So without further ado, let me present to you all -

"The Shadow of the Past"
This, along with “The Council of Elrond”, is the most important chapter in Lord of the Rings in my opinion. Both of these chapters layout the story and explain the dangers of the Ring. “Shadow of the Past” in particular gives a preview to the backstory, history of the Ring and the relationship of Sam and Frodo, not to mention Sam’s love of Elves.

I’ve decided to do this chapter slightly different. I thought it would be best to talk about each of the main characters individually, what we learn about them, what role they play and then have a summary to tie things together.

Sam
We first meet Samwise Gamgee in The Green Dragon at Bywater, discussing happenings in the outside world. This is our first real introduction to Sam, prior to this he was only mentioned by the Gaffer. Sam, unlike most hobbits, is interested in more than just the Shire. During the conversation between him and Sandyman we get our first small look at Ents, or as Sam refers to them here - “tree-men”. These very well may be the Ent-Wives that Merry and Pippin tell Treebeard about hearing of and the ones he is longing to find again.

After being ridiculed and made fun of for his beliefs and ideas – he then switches to the subject of elves. He “chants” how they are leaving Middle Earth – going to the Grey Havens, indicating his sadness that they are leaving. In this exchange with Sandyman we get an indication of how much Sam loves elves and his desire to see them – a desire that isn’t quenched until he arrives at Rivendell. None of the other hobbits in the conversation really cares about the elves, or the outside world for that matter. They are perfectly happy dealing with their own lives and ignoring everything outside the Shire. In Hobbiton, everyone is in perfect ignorant bliss.

After Sam mentions Bilbo during the conversation, we get a look at his respect for Bilbo and Frodo. We discover that he worked for them and still works for Frodo as his gardener. In the past, Sam enjoyed all the stories that Bilbo had to tell of the outside world and now any news he can gain from Frodo. Sandyman retorts that “they’re both cracked. Leastways Bilbo was cracked and Frodo’s cracking.” This seems to be the general feeling around the Shire and in particular in Hobbiton. Neither Bilbo nor Frodo seem to be well respected. Sam isn’t respected because he looks up to both Frodo and Bilbo.

In someways Sam comes off as simple-minded and like a child almost. He’s very innocent and when Gandalf announces he will be going off with Frodo he is excited to be seeing elves. He stammers and lies terribly when he is caught eavesdropping on the conversation – almost like a child. We also see that he does think of himself beneath Frodo, by calling him “sir”, “Mr Frodo” and begging for his forgiveness for listening. This changes through the story, but Sam always has a deep respect for Frodo that runs deeper than just friendship.

Frodo
The chapter opens up with Frodo and the general opinion of Hobbiton toward him and Bilbo. As I stated above, neither of them were well respected. The general feeling was that Bilbo was crazy and Frodo was on his way to becoming crazy. It was with great relief among the inhabitants of the Shire that Frodo was left on his own, without the interference of Bilbo or Gandalf., so he could grow some “hobbit-sense”.

While most hobbits felt that Bilbo was dead, Frodo continued to celebrate Bilbo’s birthday, along with his own. This, many hobbits felt was very odd. Through the hobbits reaction to Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Gandalf and other outsiders – we see how hobbits are actually very judgemental of others and don’t like or trust people who are different or think differently. Their motto seems to be “ignorance is bliss” more than it is a prejudice though.

I’d hate to bring up the movies, but this next part has been discussed repeatedly in the movie forum and I think this is an important point to understand. Did Elijah Wood properly portray Frodo’s age in the movie? I have always maintained that he did and here we learn why. We learn that Frodo, like Bilbo, is “well preserved” and is not aging. Frodo is like a “robust and energetic hobbit just out of his tweens”. Things seem not to have changed even as he approached 50. Other hobbits at this time then begin to think it is unnatural and queer. I feel that this is the reason why Elijah Wood made the perfect Frodo (minus some gripes I have with his constant eye rolling, but that’s another subject and another forum :D).

We learn about some of Frodo’s relationships, such as Meriadoc and Peregrin as his best friends, and his love for Bilbo. As for his relationship with Sam, no matter what people may think about later chapters and the relationship between Frodo and Sam – they were not initially friends. They were merely in my mind employer and employee, although close. Sam respected Frodo, but they weren’t necessarily friends.

As time wore on – a desire to travel and see the outside world began to grow on Frodo. He started to look at maps and talk to strangers traveling through, such as the elves going to the Grey Havens. This desire grew stronger each autumn at around Bilbo and his birthday at the time when Bilbo had left Hobbiton. This desire only increased as Frodo’s 50th birthday approached, around the same age Bilbo left for the Loney Mountain as described in “There and Back Again”. This all demonstrates a very strong connection and love between Frodo and Bilbo, which is later used to show the power of the Ring when Frodo is at Rivendell and he almost strikes Bilbo.

continued...

[jerseydevil]

Gandalf
We don’t learn a lot about Gandalf here. Not really until the Council of Elrond does Gandalf play a huge part in the story. We however get a hint of his knowledge and power.

I know that a lot of questions were raised in the last chapter discussion about “When did Gandalf know about the Ring?” Much of Gandalf’s whereabouts, movements and so forth are hinted at, but never really spelled out. We know he comes and goes from Hobbiton during the course of the years to check on Frodo, but the encounters are never fully revealed and there is a full nine years between this visit and the previous. So how much does Gandalf know about the Ring?

There are several statements in the text that indicate to me that Gandalf had no idea about the power of the ring such as, “It is far more powerful than I ever dared to think at first...” This and other similar statements in my opinion, show that he had most likely not taken steps to fully protect Frodo, but more to see what was happening. To gain any possible hint that the Ring might have been the One Ring. I am aware of the quote by Gandalf, "...there has never been a day when the Shire has not been guarded by watchful eyes." But there is also this, "...you must remember that nine years ago...I still knew little for certain." This to me can indicate that the protection, was merely a precaution and not to be used as an indication that Gandalf knew anythin positive about the Ring.

Overall during this chapter we see that Gandalf is more than just a simple wizard as he was presented in the first chapter and in “There and Back Again”. We get a hint of his wisdom and knowledge far more here. Here we learn about the White Council and how they drove “the dark power from Mirkwood”, and about his relationship with Saruman.

Another point of contention with Gandalf that has come up in other threads is his ability to hold the Ring. I don’t think this is necessarily a problem though. It reacts differently with each person, but if he were to be given it I think it would consume him and in the end destroy him. He even declares when Frodo attempts to give it to him that the thought of using it would grow too great for him to handle. Because of this, I don’t think the affect of the Ring is immediate with Gandalf and he can withstand touching it, just like Frodo has been able to for all these years and Bilbo before him for about 60 years.

Gollum/Smeagol
This chapter tells us quite a bit about Gollum originally known as Smeagol, who Bilbo met in “There and Back Again” during the “Riddle Game”. We learn about his family, his role in getting the Ring and how it has devoured him. This is the first mention of Gollum really since Bilbo met him and “won” the Ring.

Smeagol seems to have come from a family very similar to the Old Took’s, weathy and possibly powerful family “ruled” by his grandmother. However, it seems as if he was not really well liked. Smeagol seemed rather selfish and almost like he might have gotten everything he wanted. This is indicated I feel when Deagol, his friend, finds the Ring and Smeagol wants it. He claims that it’s his birthday and therefore somehow deserves the Ring. He comes across almost spoiled. In my opinion Smeagol’s attitude and selfishness is why the Ring has such a big hold on him so soon. Whereas others with kinder, gentler hearts such as Frodo and Bilbo and especially Sam are less affected by the Ring. As Gandalf says, “The Ring had given him power according to his stature.”

We discover that Gollum, after he lost the Ring, eventually leaves the Misty Mountains in search of Bilbo. Smeagol seems to have been drawn somehow to Sauron though, abandoning the trail for Bilbo and heading toward Mirkwood and eventually to Mordor where he was captured. In this narrative we also get our first mention of Aragorn and how he helps Gandalf find Gollum after Gollum is released from Mordor.

Through Gollum, Sauron learns of Bilbo and the Ring and the quest is set. Now the Dark Lord knows of the Shire and the name of Baggins and Gandalf knows that Frodo must take the Ring away from there.

Tolkien uses a lot of foreshadowing in this chapter regarding Gollum’s role as well as other events, such as when Gandalf tells Frodo “My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end;”


Sauron
Here is the first mention of the Dark Lord and his history. We learn about how the White Council drove him out of Mirkwood and how he reestablishes himself in Mordor. There isn’t too much revealed about him, only enough to wet the reader’s appetite. It isn’t until the Council of Elrond that the full story of Sauron and the Ring is revealed.

While discussing Sauron, Gandalf reveals how Sauron is calling all evil creatures to his service. This is the first hint of a possible war against the West. The black riders are also mentioned, the most powerful servants of Sauron, who were given the Nine Rings and thus ensnared.

For the chapter being named after Sauron, “The Shadow from the Past”, not much is really revealed about Sauron except in hints. We learn a bit from Gandalf how Sauron was defeated, but then again it’s only touched upon. Tolkien seems to be just laying the foundations here for the Council of Elrond and wants to still keep Sauron as a shadowy, mysterious figure. But when one truly thinks about it, except for during the Council of Elrond, is there really any time when Sauron is ever completely revealed in Lord of the Rings.

continued...

[jerseydevil]

The Ring
In “The Shadow of the Past” we learn the history of the Ring. We learn how it came into Gollum’s hands, how Sauron lost it, the power of the Ring and Gandalf’s search in finding the truth about it. Here we are also introduced to one of the most powerful poems in the book I think.

Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

Again, as was mentioned here and in previous threads, there seems to be a contradiction with the Ring. If it’s so powerful and corrupts, why can Gandalf hold it? Again I think that it is solely because he is stronger or of a different temperament than Isildur or Smeagol. Saruman, unlike Gandalf, would most likely have succumbed to the Ring immediately because of his desire for power.

We learn that the Ring has a power of it’s own. That it seems to slip off people’s fingers, trying to reveal itself at times, trying to be found, trying to get back to Sauron. Prior to this, the Ring seemed to only make the wearer invisible. The plot is also set for the trip to Mt Doom to destroy it, how that is the only place that it can be destroyed.

We also learn that the Ring can not be willingly destroyed. When Frodo attempts to fling it into the fire, a strong resistence is there. He starts to think about the beauty of it, the purity of it, the perfectness of it. All of this is contrary to what it is. Which some ways is the exact opposite of Aragorn "All that is gold, does not glitter." Or to put it another way in the case of the Ring "All that is beautiful is not good." and for Aragorn "All that is unkempt is not bad"

Concerning the Chapter Title
Some can argue I suppose that the Shadow of the Past is the Ring, but I highly doubt it. I have always felt that the Shadow was Sauron coming back and trying to regain his power. Then again, Shadow of the Past can also refer to Gandalf dredging up long forgotten history. Does anyone see the title possibly referring to anything else? And what are people’s thoughts on the chapter title?

Summary
As I said, this chapter lays the foundation for the whole book. It introduces the plot and most of the main characters. We learn the relationship between Sam and Frodo, the history of the Ring and the power of Gandalf. We are given background, although not much, on Sauron, as well as a bit about the Black Riders.

At this point, the reader, Sam and Frodo are still a bit naïve of the true danger of the Ring and what they are getting into. This is demonstrated by the fact that with all Sam has overheard, the only thing he can think of is seeing elves, and Frodo just longs to go on an adventure like Bilbo as is revealed with this line “…a great desire to follow Bilbo flamed up in his heart…It was so strong that it overcame his fear: he could have almost have run out there…”.

So through this chapter we get an idea of what is ahead. That Frodo must leave the Shire and make his way to Rivendell, that he must go unknown as Mr. Underhill. This part here, again, has caused a lot of controversy – why, if the Ring is so terrible, didn’t Gandalf make Frodo leave immediately? I think it’s because Gandalf didn’t want the enemy catching on right away. It would have been all over the shire that Frodo just disappeared. Any sudden moves might have revealed too much to the enemy. I feel that Gandalf, soon after, had people to guard the Shire and felt that that was protection enough for the time being. It was better to go slowly and quietly than to arouse undo attention by just disappearing in the middle of the night.

This and the next couple of chapters have always been my favorite. While I was in high school I read Lord of the Rings two times a year, always starting in April/May and then starting over again in October. It seems one of the reasons why I get a desire to read Lord of the Rings during the Spring and Fall is because of these particular chapters. Tolkien uses a lot of imagery when describing the seasons which I love, such as, “..the sun was warm, and the wind was in the South. Everything looked fresh, and the new green Spring was shimmering in the field and on the tips of the trees’ fingers.” This particular chapter takes place during the Spring, but the next and subsequent chapters take place in the Fall. Book 1 is my favorite of all the books in Lord of the Rings.

I just wanted to note that I find it interesting that Tolkien uses both the 2nd chapters of book 1 and 2 to layout the history of the Ring. He gives a bit of foreshadowing in here on the history of the Ring, Sauron and Middle Earth, but then in the “Council of Elrond” the full story is revealed.

[Artanis]

Very good intro JD. :)

I agree with everything you say about Gandalf, and what he knew about Bilbo's Ring, and also about his ability to hold it. He touched it only for a short time, but if he were to bear it for a longer period of time, he very wisely knew that he would eventually give in to the temptation of using it.

About Frodo: I think it is interesting to see in this chapter how he is taking after Bilbo. He has naturally enough become The Master of Bag End, as Bilbo was before, and he has taking after his habit of wandering. He also is beginning to look "well preserved", and acting "queer" (according to the other inhabitants of Hobbiton), just as Bilbo did. There is also the fact that they were both bachelors, and they both left Hobbiton at the age of 50.

As time wore on – a desire to travel and see the outside world began to grow on Frodo. He started to look at maps and talk to strangers traveling through, such as the elves going to the Grey Havens. This desire grew stronger each autumn at around Bilbo and his birthday at the time when Bilbo had left Hobbiton. This desire only increased as Frodo’s 50th birthday approached, around the same age Bilbo left for the Loney Mountain as described in “There and Back Again”. This all demonstrates a very strong connection and love between Frodo and Bilbo, which is later used to show the power of the Ring when Frodo is at Rivendell and he almost strikes Bilbo.Yes, there is love between Bilbo and Frodo, love which is adding to Frodo's urge to go travelling and perhaps meet Bilbo again. But Frodo was also deeply in love with the Shire. I wonder if Frodo would have ever left if it wasn't for the Ring. Even after Gandalf's words to him and his warnings about the Ring, he still hesitated, until it was almost too late.
But half unknown to himself the regret that he had not gone with Bilbo was steadily growing. He found himself wondering at times, especially in the autumn, about the wild lands, and strange visions of mountains that he had never seen came into his dreams. He began to say to himself: ‘Perhaps I shall cross the River myself one day.’ To which the other half of his mind always replied: ‘Not yet.’Lovely, isn't it? These visions, I wonder if they could be some sort of foreshadowing. There may just be that someone is trying to prepare him for what is to come.

[GrayMouser]

Good one, jd- well worth the wait:)

I like your pointing out that Frodo and Sam were not 'friends' to begin with- the social distance between them would have been too great. Both Merry and Pippin come as close to being of 'noble- blood' as the Shire allows ( ties into the discussion of the last chapter as to whether Sam would have been invited to the party.)

[Tuor of Gondolin]

I quite agree with JerseyDevil about the chapters: SOTP and TCOE. I've always been of the opinion that "The Shadow of the past" and "The Council of Elrond" were the two chapters that are "grabbers", that is, either get you involved in the tale or cause you to lose interest. (Of course, I majored in history in college). Together with a coming chapter, won't mention which, in which I realized Tolkien's elves weren't irritating little leprechauns but essentially humans in stature (hint: Frodo has to ride a horse because he's injured).

The, at least initial, relationship of Frodo to Sam, was, I believe intentionally, Tolkien's allusion to the World War I relationship of officers to batmen.
"My 'Sam Gamgee' is indeed a reflexion of the English soldier, of the privates and batmen I knew in the 1914 war, and recognized as so far superior to myself" [my italics].

Another good JD observation relates to weather/seasons: the integral incorporation of weather, topography, and the seasons is also crucial to the realistic "subcreation" of Middle-earth. Parenthetically, there's a series "Travels in Europe" on PBS which, while interesting, is also curious, since it never seems to rain, snow, have cold weather, etc, but when I'm in England it seems to rain or spritz every other day (which rather adds to the fun).

[Elvengirl]

Very good JD

Let me first say this is one of my favorite chapters in the book.

One point I've been thinking about:
Bilbo's claim as to how he "won" the ring, how he was putting a claim to it, as if it were, by right, his own and the similaries to Smeagol's "birthday present" story. My origional thought was that these stories were their own justifications, created to have an excuse for taking the ring. Now, upon rereading I see how it was the ring who's influence was upon them and had an "unwholesome power that set to work on it's keeper at once." I thought was interesting.

[Forkbeard]

Good job JD!

As some of you know, I'm teaching LoTR at the moment, and when we discussed this chapter one of the things we talked about was Frodo's apparent disconnected relationship with the Shire. That is, even this early he is in the Shire but not of the Shire. The hobbits, other than his few friends, view him askance, he is already curious about the events of the outside world and talks to that dratted wizard, elves, dwarves and other undesirables. He may love the Shire, but he's already an outsider there in many ways.

Since you bring up TCOE chapter in Book II, I'll point out that especially the first parts of Book I and Book II parallel each other. Both books begin with a party and socialization chapter that gives the reader some set up and knowledge of the characters. The second chapter of each book is a kind of council and as JD points out is where elements of the plot are set out and where the reader either gets involved in the story or not.

Re: Frodo and Elijah Wood--I don't think that Wood was a good choice for Frodo. While I agree with JDs point that Frodo doesn't appear to AGE, he does seem to mature, and it is this aspect I think is missing from the movies.

Forkbeard

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Just a short piece for the moment:
At the pub, Sam states that his cousin saw an
"Elm tree" walking on the North Downs.
Is this perhaps an Ent?
Just a thought...

[Olmer]

Well done jerseydevil !!
You made a few interesting points. Although I disagree with you on perception of some events , I still read it with big interest and have to compliment you on catching of some small details. However, I think I have to add a few significant things noticed by my own observation.

First of it, on what I agree with you.
This is the VERY informative chapter. As matter of fact it consists the most important element of the book: the history of the Ring and ringbearers.

The very first paragraph already conduct an important message to the readers of the LOTR. On Bilbo's little example Tolkien reminded to us that the legends are the true stories of the events of long forgotten days which, as time goes by, became distorted by taletellers for more dramatic result.

I see that you also noticed, as Forkbeard said Frodo's apparent disconnection with Shire folk.
From talks in the Green Dragon comes out a sad revelation that Bilbo and Frodo were like an outsiders for most of their own kindred; in spite of their friendliness and giving nature they still was being labeled as "cracked".
Probably, this was the real reason why both of them was having a great desire to go somewhere else.

You have noticed that in Sam's hearsay words about his cousin’s experience Tolkien gives some hint of the whereabouts of long- lost Entwives?
How about the woods of Ered Luin mountains? Not far from Shire, nice climate, safe environment...

Things , which you missed, or I see in different way.

The Ring part . For my suggestion that Gandalf lied to Frodo that he didn't know what kind of the ring it is and exaggerated the real power of the ring, which I backed up with quotes from the book, I refer to
When Gandalf "figured out" the Ring? (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10788)

The allegation that the ring is not as dangerous and powerful, as Gandalf wanted to make Frodo to believe, could be affirmed , also , by the fact that in the short period of time Gandalf HANDLED the Ring TWICE without any consequences.
More than that, I think that throwing the Ring in the fire he activated some of it's abilities, because for Gollum and Bilbo putting the Ring on the finger was like a harmless prank, but for Frodo it became a tortured experience of being open for the summons of the Dark Lord.

Gandalf's story about Isildur's dishonorable death look very fishy to me: the great king, brave enough to stand up Sauron, making himself invisible, deserting his sons, which is getting killed in the fitful fight , and leaping into the WATER!
You can't find the better place to be noticed!!!!
If Boromir managed to pummel the whole brigade of orcs, then the invisible warrior of Numenorian blood could overcome an army being practically invincible!

Gollum story tells us that this poor thing long time ago was ..”most inquisitive and curious-minded" hobbit-like person, who was "interested in the roots and beginnings" - not a bad boy by nature. Then the cunning power of the ring turned him into wretched creature unceasingly tormented by having empty of memories and anything worth doing life, and nevertheless destined to go on living. It's seems like forewarning to Frodo, telling what a bleak future can have a ringbearer .
But there is a hint that even for Gollum, as corrupted by the Ring as he was, still a small hope exist .

It caught my attention that Gollum was tortured not only by Mordor's orcs , but by Gandalf as well: "...in the end I had to be harsh. I put the fear of fire on him and WRUNG the true story out of him, bit by bit..." Only a "close encounter" with fire, in other words a bad burn, makes you fear the fire badly enough to confess of the things which you woud never admit even for yourself.

Then I have a little theory about why Gollum didn't go westward, but turned to south. Gandalf's "friend" think that " something draw him away" ... I think this "something" was that same "friend".

Amazing , how easily Gandalf manipulated trusting in him Frodo to go on the death march! He is picking up a happy unsuspected hobbit for a dangerous task perfectly knowing that it will cost him his life -"Of course...it was a dangerous for you - But there was so much at stake that I had to take some risk" -
an then slyly and calculatingly watching how he is wrestling with himself eventually coming to a prognosed decision - "His eyes seemed closed, but under the lids he was watching Frodo intently"

And the last and also important bit of information lays in Sam's words "LOR Bless" suggesting that indeed there was some kind of religion in the Middle-earth.

[jerseydevil]

I wanted to thank everyone and sorry for it being late. I will get to commenting on people's posts.

Olmer - I have read many of your posts and threads - I'm here more than people suspect actually. I don't really agree with some of your assessments though, however interesting they are. I think you are looking too much into it. I don't think the Elves or Gandalf had evil intentions of using Frodo, I don't think that putting the Ring in the fire was to activate any powers in the Ring or to torture Frodo, I think it was the only way to see if the Ring was truly the One Ring. I also don't think the Ring's evilness was exagerated by Gandalf.

I never thought that anyone could come up with so many conspiracy theories with Lord of the Rings. I would like to see if there is anything out there by Tolkien which would support your theories - but I have not seen anything.

I do disagree with you on Smeagol's "goodness". I think there were parts that were good, but I still think he did not treat his relations well. I think he had an malicious heart - if not at that time evil - to begin with.

Also - concerning Isildur - I don't think he was chicken. I think he was trapped. I don't think there is anything more to see in him putting on the ring at that point than him trying to escape with his life - and with his precious.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally posted by Olmer
Gandalf's story about Isildur's dishonorable death looks very fishy to me: the great king, brave enough to stand up to Sauron, making himself invisible, deserting his sons, which is getting killed in the fitful fight

__________________________________
This view of Isildur is rather contrary to JRRT's view, as edited by CT in Unfinished Tales:
"Elendur, not yet harmed sought Isildur.....'My King,' said Elendur, 'Ciryon is dead and Aratan is dying. Your last counsellor must advise, nay command you, as you commanded Ohtar. Go! Take your burden, and at all costs bring it to the Keepers: even at the cost of abandoning your men and me!'
"King's son,' said Isildur, "I knew that I must do so; but I feared the pain. Nor could I go without your leave. Forgive me, and my pride, that has brought you to this doom.' Elendur kissed him. 'Go! Go now!" he said."
____________________________________
Now it's possible that this is a revisionist writing by JRRT later because he didn't like the possibility of such an interpretation of Isildur's flight as that of Olmer, but it does seem that Tolkien didn't view Isildur in the light of Olmer, or indeed, the way he's depicted in PJ's movie FOTR.

[Elvengirl]

Olmer - interesting viewpoints, but I disagree with most of them. I don't believe Tolkien intended to have so many hidden meanings or innuendos.

I don't think it was Gandalf's friends who drew Gollum away for going westward, I fail to see why Gandalf would want him to go to Mordor.
"Alas! Mordor draws all wicked things, and the Dark Power was bending all it's will to gather them there."

Gandalf's throwing of the ring into the fire was the way to verify that it was indeed the One Ring, not to activate it's power in a plan to torture Frodo. I don't think of Gandalf as an insidious manipulator who just picked a happy, innocent hobbit to send to his death. I believe he sincerely cared for the hobbits and was unhappy at the events. Yes, he knew the danger involved and that Frodo was at risk, but I don't think he had a chioce.

"Be sure that he took so little hurt from the evil, and escaped in the end, because he began the ownership of the Ring so. With Pity."
I think this quote is interesting, showing the difference between Gollum and Bilbo; the fact that Gollum began his bearing of the Ring having commited murder, which is quite the opposite of Bilbo.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
This view of Isildur is rather contrary to JRRT's view, as edited by CT in Unfinished Tales: ... You beat me to it, Tuor! I was going to quote that. I love that little story, and how Isildur and his sons are fleshed out a little bit. And I like the tie-in to Aragorn, how it mentions that Elrond (who knew them both) thought Aragorn was like very much like Isildur's son Elendur, who died in that battle.


(azalea - pretty please can we just do teensy references to the other JRRT works, as long as we keep LOTR as the standard? I know that I didn't know these other works even existed, and I'm SO grateful I found out about them! Please, please?)

[Rían]

Thank you, JD, for the summary! I like how you focused on the characters.

Personally, I always thought the "shadow of the past" referred to the things that happened in the past throwing a shadow over the present times, but I can see how it also could refer to Sauron.

To me, the whole Sam/Frodo relationship is very clear in the light of older English literature, where servants would be in the same family for years, and the servants would call the younger members of the house "mister" or "master" followed by their first names (or "miss" in the case of the girls). I've read LOTS of Austin, Dickens, etc. and the Sam/Frodo relationship is exactly like this, which would be what Tolkien would be v. familiar with.

[The Gaffer]

Really good job, JerseyDevil! It's one of my favourite chapters too and I'm glad you did it so well. In particular, I liked the way you structured it, looking at the different characters and themes.

I think between yours and Tuor's posts, we've got Frodo and Sam's relationship nailed:

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
The, at least initial, relationship of Frodo to Sam, was, I believe intentionally, Tolkien's allusion to the World War I relationship of officers to batmen.
"My 'Sam Gamgee' is indeed a reflexion of the English soldier, of the privates and batmen I knew in the 1914 war, and recognized as so far superior to myself" [my italics].


How it changes over the piece is one of the touchstones of the whole story.

As for the title of the chapter, I thought this referred in general terms to the Ring, and the whole "treasure comes back to bite your ass" theme, and not specifically to Sauron.

Some Comments on Gandalf
The chapter is quite clear about how Gandalf's knowledge of the Ring developed, and indeed it forms a very dramatic narrative. I love how the innocent "trinket" from the Hobbit comes back to life in a terrifying way, and resonates off the offhand remark in the pub from Chapter 1 "it ain't natural, it'll have to be paid for."

If there's a problem, it's in the Hobbit, where Gandalf seemingly knew that it was a Great Ring (i.e. one of the Nine, Seven, Three or One), yet was happy to let it enter Smaug's lair in the hands of a witless halfling. (Sorry, coming over all Boromir there)

Still, I'm happy to let JRRT off with that one. Also the thing about him holding it. Also the not departing right away thing. Ahem

Is Gandalf Manipulating Frodo?
Of course. But he's just doing his job. We're frequently told that his concern is for "all the creatures of Middle Earth" not just one or two, and his actions are consistent with this.

Indeed, what's good for everyone very often conflicts with what's good for the individual, and here we see Gandalf walking this fine line with great skill and not inconsiderable restraint.

We also see a glimpse of his ruthless side, and get a sharp image of him, like the Ring, being a lot more than the smoke-ring blowing conjurer from The Hobbit.

[Lizra]

A well written analysis JD. :)

These early chapters are my favorite also. Despite the hints of darkness, these early "Hobbity" chapters have the light, easy to enjoy attitude that sucked me into reading LoTRs .... the *magic* and make believe is often just for the purpose of delight. :)

I felt the title "Shadow of the Past" referred to the past (Middle Earth's political past, Sauron, ring making, etc..) casting a shadow on the simple, "savor the good life" of the here and now, that occurs naturally in The Shire. In this chapter, going entirely against the grain of Shire life, things change....for some of the Hobbits at least. "The Past" comes in through the portal of Bilbo's ring. It casts A SHADOW on some of the hobbits, and The Shire itself.... and the stage is set for change, no matter how resistant Hobbits think they are. :)

I think Gandalf can touch the ring briefly (his character is certainly strong enough to rise above that much temptation :rolleyes: ;) ) but he certainly doesn't want anybody GIVING it to him! :eek:

[Lefty Scaevola]

"Concerning the Chapter Title
And what are people’s thoughts on the chapter title?"

I view it as a metaphorical statement of how a small number of significant past events channalize and limt events and options in the presnt. Like objects and clouds blocking sunlight and leaving only a few lit areas, the creation of the rings of power and Isidur's choice and other events around the rings eliminate the viable of most choices for the peoples and persons of Middle Earth, leaving them on a few options toward achieving Light rather than Darkness.

[GrayMouser]

This Chapter contains one of my favourite quotes:

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement."

[Valandil]

Will post more on this later, when I have a few more moments. For now:

JD - yes, great job! Thank you very much! (and sorry for teasing you when it still wasn't up... kinda! :p )

Lefty - I think of the title mostly as referring to events of the past affecting the future, not necessarily an 'evil' shadow in this case, but like a shadow that any of us casts in bright sunlight. Of course, there could likely be dual or multiple meanings... which is better than a single one, when all apply.

Graymouser - yes, I like that quote too! On my current re-read I'm highlighting in a certain color all the 'quotes of wisdom' that apply to life in general - that's a nice one, and there's at least one more in the chapter (guesses, anyone?) - I'll put others up in subsequent post.

Rian - I THINK we're OK doing some references to other material... (azalea - let us know if this is right or not) - my understanding is that we can refer to it in bits to deepen the discussion, while trying to be clear that these sources were not 'final' documents of JRRT. I think we don't want to make first-time readers either feel stupid or feel 'trumped' as they make their points. The MAIN point of discussion should be what is in these books themselves. If we want to go beyond that, we're encouraged to - but to use or start other threads for it.

Azalea - is that right? :)

[Twista]

Just off the topic: is there not a sub forum being made to host all these new threads?

[Rían]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
This Chapter contains one of my favourite quotes:

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement."

One of mine, too.


And the tie-in to the earthy wisdom of the pub remark in Chpt 1 is great, too, as Gaffer said.

[azalea]

Yes, Valandil, you put it very well. :)

If on the one hand, you want to mention "BTW, in UT there is an interesting bit that references this very incident" or something along those lines, including some main details (is that oxymoronic?), that's fine. But if you start using UT and other texts to support your argument when debating, I would ask that you take it into another thread here (there happens to be a current thread about Gandalf's motivation where it would be appropriate to use the above quote).

I hope I'm not sounding like a broken record (if anyone is too young to understand that simile, ask your parents:D ), but I can assure you that when those kinds of references start getting thrown back and forth, members who aren't as familiar with them get lost -- the references are meaningless to them, and we lose their interest in the project. So I hope this makes sense, and that by having this stipulation I don't then discourage those more familiar with "greater ME."

It also forces participation in other threads, which keeps the forum nice and lively. In picking out one specific from the chapter and debating about it (or simply discussing) in its own thread, we keep the chapter threads "general" yet interesting, and avoid having pages full of posts going back and forth about one topic. I hope this answers your question. When in doubt, go ahead and throw the reference in, but if someone starts to debate with you, find or open a thread about it.

[brownjenkins]

great job JD!

you covered it well and touched upon one point i've argued here before... that gandalf knew (not suspected, but knew) frodo would be unable to toss the ring into the cracks of doom

some don't like to see it this way, since it points to a kind of failing on frodo's part (who we come to love so much)... but in many ways, i think this is what puts tolkien above later authors who jumped on the "little guy saves the world" bandwagon... it makes it more "real"... no strength of character could overcome the one ring, or else gandalf certainly would have risked taking it himself... a quick flyby and drop off over mount doom with one of his eagle friends ;)

gandalf was following his heart, and trusting in fate, or eru... he knew this was the right course to take, even if he did not see any possibility for success in any logical way

olmer ~ certainly an interesting point of view... but if i am to believe it i'll ask again more clearly: what would gandalf's motive be if things were truely as you put them?

one last bit which is somewhat trivial but has always bothered me, who wrote (other than jrrt, of course ;) ):

Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

obviously the part in bold was penned by sauron when he made the ring, but what about the rest?

as i understand it, after he made the one, he went to war with the elves and presumably took the other sixteen... then distributed them in disguise to the dwarves and men... i never pictured sauron as a poet, but if he didn't write the rest of the verse, was it the elves?

it would have to be after the war of the last alliance, which is presumably the only time they would have seen the ring inscription... and even then, why would they mention their own three rings which they tried so hard to keep secret?

i may just be looking at an angle that jrrt didn't consider, but was wondering if anyone else had ever thought about this

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
great job JD!

Thank you - I'm glad everyone likes it.

you covered it well and touched upon one point i've argued here before... that gandalf knew (not suspected, but knew) frodo would be unable to toss the ring into the cracks of doom

some don't like to see it this way, since it points to a kind of failing on frodo's part (who we come to love so much)... but in many ways, i think this is what puts tolkien above later authors who jumped on the "little guy saves the world" bandwagon... it makes it more "real"... no strength of character could overcome the one ring, or else gandalf certainly would have risked taking it himself... a quick flyby and drop off over mount doom with one of his eagle friends ;)

gandalf was following his heart, and trusting in fate, or eru... he knew this was the right course to take, even if he did not see any possibility for success in any logical way

Yeah - I agree, I don't see how Gandalf could not know that for Frodo the biggest test was going to be actually destroying the Ring. Throughout the book Gandald always indicates some scepticism to the success of the quest - but he also knows it's the only way to go. It was either hiding it and waiting for the inevitability of Sauron massing all his armies and ultimately destroying them all, using the Ring and then setting another darklord in Sauron's place or go with the nearly impossible - but only true solution - of destroying it.

one last bit which is somewhat trivial but has always bothered me, who wrote (other than jrrt, of course ;) ):

obviously the part in bold was penned by sauron when he made the ring, but what about the rest?

as i understand it, after he made the one, he went to war with the elves and presumably took the other sixteen... then distributed them in disguise to the dwarves and men... i never pictured sauron as a poet, but if he didn't write the rest of the verse, was it the elves?

it would have to be after the war of the last alliance, which is presumably the only time they would have seen the ring inscription... and even then, why would they mention their own three rings which they tried so hard to keep secret?

i may just be looking at an angle that jrrt didn't consider, but was wondering if anyone else had ever thought about this
Interesting - I never really thought about it. I have always thought it was the elves though who wrote it. I don't think the fact that they hid the Three Rings from Sauron as being a problem. He knew they existed - he just didn't know where they were. The elves made no secret of them before he created the One Ring. It wasn't until afterward that they needed to hide the Rings.

I have also thought that maybe it was men who wrote the poem, although I doubt it actually. The only reason I think it might be them is because of the "doomed to die" part. But Elves also didn't look too highly on the dying of men (some gift) either.

[Fat middle]

I agree you've done an excellent job, JD! :)

About the ring verse, I don't know why but I've always believed it was written by the elven-smiths of Eregion, though Sauron must be the author of the lines included in the ring.

But now I'm pondering if it could be one of the Nine men whom Sauron gave rings who wrote the verse.:confused:

[mithrand1r]

JD,

A very good job of summarizing chapter 2 SOTP.

I have started re-reading FOTR so I can provide some input into the discussion.

So far (From chapter 2 alone) I do not see Gandalf as manipulating events/people around him for some other alternate mysterious purpose. Olmer does bring some interesting different ideas and thoughts about LOTR.

Fat Middle,

Interesting idea regarding the verse

Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

[Valandil]

A few points:

* STRONGLY agree that this chapter and 'Council of Elrond' are two of the most important chapters... SO MUCH information is given!
* Interesting to note that Sam & Sandyman in their discussion at The Green Dragon somewhat parallel (at least in attitudes) the conversation their fathers (Gaffer and The Miller) had 17 years earlier at The Ivy Bush.
* Glad you picked up on the first mention of Aragorn... it still surprises me, with this and several other hints dropped before we meet him, that I was TOTALLY SURPRISED upon the appearance of Aragorn the first time I read this book. The hints are there, but somehow they just don't jump out at you on the first reading. (EDIT: I guess I was more surprised at who he turned out to be - though hints are dropped for that as well)
* Twista - be patient about a 'sub-forum' - I imagine that will come later.
* Authorship of the poem - I'd definitely say the Elves. I don't have a problem with mention of their Three Rings being in it - I doubt the poem was very widely known.
* OK - some other 'quotes of wisdom from Chapter 2' (besides the one GrayMouser gives about giving life or death to those who deserve them):

"So do I, and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us." - Gandalf, in response to Frodo's: "I wish it need not have happened in my time."

and

"Such questions cannot be answered. You may be sure that it was not for any merit that others do not possess: not for power or wisdom, at any rate. But you have been chosen, and you must therefore use such strength and heart and wits as you have." - Gandalf, in response to Frodo's: "... Why did it come to me? Why was I chosen?"

I also like the rest of Gandalf's quote mentioned by GM... the hope he holds for Gollum's very redemption, slim as the chance may seem. And the portion that follows immediately after the 'dealing out judgement': "For even the very wise cannot see all ends." Gandalf's own wisdom was imperfect and he knew it. He did the best he could to discern the right thing, and then did his best to do it.

[GrayMouser]

And...

"But pity stayed his hand.
'It's a pity I've run out of bullets,' he thought."

Ooops, wrong book:)

[The Gaffer]

That's an interesting comment on the verse; I hadn't thought of it before.

Given that Gandalf recites it in the Black Speech at Rivendell, perhaps it was written in that language to begin with, presumably by Sauron or one of his flunkies.

I agree that the pity quote is one of the best from the book.

[brownjenkins]

maybe sauron was really just a disgruntled poet... envious of all those elven muses ;)

[The Gaffer]

Yeah, I hear that in the Second Age all the girls went for the elven poets. Clearly he got the knock-back off off Galadriel and decided to wreak vengeance throught Middle-Earth instead.

If only he'd found a nice girl and settled down.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Yeah, I hear that in the Second Age all the girls went for the elven poets. Clearly he got the knock-back off off Galadriel and decided to wreak vengeance throught Middle-Earth instead.

If only he'd found a nice girl and settled down.

Yeah - but SHE went for the short round guy in the bright blue jacket and yellow boots and hat! :p :D

[Olmer]

Yeah, I hear that in the Second Age all the girls went for the elven poets. Clearly he got the knock-back off off Galadriel and decided to wreak vengeance throught Middle-Earth instead.
He-he.The Innovator, Adviser, Teacher, Poet, besides being a nice looking and VERY popular guy, he had a very good reason to believe that he woun't get turned down, even made in advance the wedding ring .:)
Too bad that the nice girl of his liking got scared of the life-timeless commitment .:D

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Valandil
Yeah - but SHE went for the short round guy in the bright blue jacket and yellow boots and hat! :p :D
Sounds like we've got the basis of some tabloid fiction there. Tom, Goldberry and Sauron in the eternal love triangle. Tom and Goldberry settle down to mowing the grass and talking to trees, Sauron we know about. No wonder JRRT was so coy about them.

[cee2lee2]

"bumping" for other latecomers, like me :)

[Beren3000]

I'm currently rereading LOTR and there's a part in this chapter where Gandalf tells Frodo that Gollum was probably sent out of Mordor on some "errand of mischief". I wonder what that was. Do you think Sauron sent him to hint the Ring?

[The Gaffer]

I think the suggestion is that he knew that Gollum was as likely as anyone to find the ring, and that Sauron would then be able to nab it.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yeah. He set him free and them followed him to find the Ring. This wasn't helped when Aragorn captured him.

[Olmer]

Yeah. He set him free and them followed him to find the Ring.
Where does it say that Gollum was followed by Sauron?

[The Gaffer]

It doesn't. However, Gollum finding the Ring would be enough.

[Beren3000]

But why would Sauron need Gollum to hunt for the Ring, the Nine were already out looking for "Baggins of the Shire", weren't they?

[Nurvingiel]

If Gollum did find it, he would probably use it. Then Sauron would be able to tell where it was.

But if that's the case, why wouldn't he have noticed 60 years earlier when Gollum was using it to kill stray orcs? Is it because he hadn't returned to power yet? (Stupid don't have the books...)

[Beren3000]

Good point, Nurv!
Acutally at Gollum's time, Sauron was in fact closer to the Misty Mountains as he was still in Dol Guldur as the Necromancer. But I guess the only explanation for Sauron's not noticing was the fact that the whole concept of the Ring as evil hadn't crossed Tolkien's mind yet as he worked on The Hobbit

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

And they were deep into the Misty Mountains. Idon't expect that they knew that the Necromancer was Sauron, I think only the Nazgul would have known that.

[azalea]

It is stated in The Hobbit that Gollum rarely used it anymore. But when Bilbo found it he used it a lot, so my guess is that Sauron hadn't yet gained enough of his power, he was still weak.

[Nurvingiel]

Good point, Nurv!
Acutally at Gollum's time, Sauron was in fact closer to the Misty Mountains as he was still in Dol Guldur as the Necromancer. But I guess the only explanation for Sauron's not noticing was the fact that the whole concept of the Ring as evil hadn't crossed Tolkien's mind yet as he worked on The Hobbit
I thought about the proximity thing too. But I think the Hobbit is contigous with LOTR, no worries there.

I think Azalea has got it, with him still being weak. Or maybe he hadn't figured out where to look yet, and he wasn't powerful enough to sense every time the Ring was used.

Sauron's weakness would go both ways - he wouldn't be strong enough to sense the Ring, and the Ring wouldn't send as strong of a signal. IOW, the connection between the two is weaker.

[Olmer]

But if that's the case, why wouldn't he have noticed 60 years earlier when Gollum was using it to kill stray orcs? Is it because he hadn't returned to power yet? (Stupid don't have the books...)
I think that, as time was passing by,the Ring was cooled off to the point of "going to sleep" mode. This why it has been relatively safe for Gollum and Bilbo to use the Ring.
By throwing it back in the fire Gandalf re-activated it, and the hell broke loose.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

And by that time Sauron was back in Barad-Dûr, which also relied on the Ring's existance. That to could have had something to do with it.

[Mrs.Gimli]

great job !i injoyed it very much

[Mrs.Gimli]

The shadow of the past is one of the best chapters :confused: The part with Smeagol and Deagol is very good,,,,,,,Plus it tells you whats going on in Middle Earth :)
I just finished with the books and I oviously loved them :p

[The Wizard from Milan]

For the chapter being named after Sauron, “The Shadow from the Past”, not much is really revealed about Sauron except in hints.
But I don't think that “The Shadow from the Past” is Sauron. “The Shadow from the Past” is the ring, or, better even, the fear that the ring and lord might be united once more

EDIT: Oops, I had not seen you address this a few lines below... I guess I was too eager to answer :o

[Gordis]

But if that's the case, why wouldn't he have noticed 60 years earlier when Gollum was using it to kill stray orcs? Is it because he hadn't returned to power yet? (Stupid don't have the books...)

I have some ideas on ring-detection that I would like to share

I suppose that Sauron was aware of someone wearing the Ring not because of his inner link with the One, but through the 3 dwarven and 9 nazgul rings that he had. Gandalf became aware of Frodo putting the ring on Amon Hen through Narya. Sauron must have been collecting Great rings throughout the second and third millenia of the Third age. We know exactly when Sauron got the "last of the seven": in TA 2845. The Nine he presumably got later -when he returned to Mordor and declared himself openly: that is by 2951.
So when Gollum wore his ring above ground (2463-2470) Sauron, though living nearby, had only two dwarwen rings as a detector (perhaps even one). Then Gollum went to live in the caves, probably the mountains screened the signal.
When Bilbo found the ring (2941), Gandalf immediately "felt uneasy", may be even literally so, he had Narya and was close to Bilbo. But as he never had this feeling before (he was not there when Sauron wore his ring in the SA) he may not have understood the cause. But at the White Counsel this same year he INSISTED that action was to be taken against the Necromancer (just in case if Bilbo's ring is the One). And he was convincing, so when Bilbo returned to the Shire, Sauron was already in Mordor.
Sauron (with his three dwarven rings only) could have missed the passage of Bilbo through Mirkwood on his way to Esgaroth. And in Mordor he was too far away to feel the signal.
However, after getting the Nine, Sauron became much more powerful. And he must have got the Ithil/Morgul palantir to use. Before his departure to Rivendell (3001), Bilbo confessed to Gandalf that he felt stretched and felt an eye seeking for him. So Sauron must have been aware on the One ring on someone's finger, but could not yet locate the offender. Perhaps at this time Sauron sent some magic call to the bearer of the One to come to Mordor (in the way Frodo felt drawn to the gates of Minas Morgul). But instead of Bilbo (who was far away) Sauron got Gollum, the previous ringbearer, who was drawn to Mordor and was captured in 3009.
After Bilbo's departure Frodo has not used the Ring at all, so felt nothing and was undetectable.
In 2018 Frodo put the Ring on several occasions: in Bombadil house, at the Pony -also briefly, at Weathertop. Sauron might have felt him wearing the ring on all the three occasions, but as Frodo's general location was already known to Sauron, it has not helped the latter much.

Then comes the Amon Hen incident. Both Sauron with his string of rings and Gandalf with Narya were immediately aware of Frodo wearing the Ring. Gandalf was even able to send him a mental call! Saruman could have felt him as well (if it is true that he has got one dwarven ring and/or with his home-made ring).

Then Sam wore the Ring in Mordor itself. How come Sauron has not felt it? No explanation. Perhaps he felt the One only if he actually WORE the other rings and just then he was not - was taking a bath, perhaps :) .

Finally, when Frodo claimed the Ring, each ringbearer must have felt it, Sauron most acutely.

[Butterbeer]

Then Sam wore the Ring in Mordor itself. How come Sauron has not felt it? No explanation. Perhaps he felt the One only if he actually WORE the other rings and just then he was not - was taking a bath, perhaps :) .


Interesting stuff, with regard to the above: was sauron taking a Bath perhaps? Classic!- gotta agree with you there - it does seem, thinking about it, completely incongrous - but love your funny sarcastic description! very funny. :D
can't understand why sauron would not have immediately felt it in Mordor, even with the captains of the West pressing him (if that is actaully happening at this exact juncture in time - i'd need to check but do not have the books to hand nor the inclination to actually check - i'm sure someone here will know - its kinda the point of the forum yeah?) so i'd like to know but yup excellent point

[Gordis]

i'd need to check but do not have the books to hand nor the inclination to actually check - i'm sure someone here will know - its kinda the point of the forum yeah?) so i'd like to know but yup excellent point
Thank you, Butterbeer, I have reread the part about Sam and the Ring again.

I happily announce that Sauron is redeemed. He was not taking a bath after all. No baths ever for the Dark Lord! :D It is said that every tine Sam put on the ring he has felt the Eye's awareness, but the Eyesight was obstructed by the dark pall of smoke over Mordor. So Sauron was unable to locate Sam.

As for the dates: On the 13.03 at Ungol Pass Sam put the Ring on, but almost immediately followed the orcs underground. There he has lain unconscious till midday of 14.03 presumably with the ring still on. About noon 14.03 he has put the Ring on but briefly. At the time Sauron had grave matters in his mind: On the 13 the Orcs occupied Pellennor fields, on the 14 the assault of Minas Tirith took place. Denethor was looking in his Palantir, so Sauron had to show him selected pictures. He was trying to locate Aragorn ever since he thought the other had the Ring. And at this crucial time he felt someone wearing the Ring and somewhere near! Poor Sau.

Perhaps Sam's unintended "teasing" of Sauron with the Ring distracted Sauron enough to overlook both the approach of the Rohirrim and the march of the Army of Dead from the South. It looks like Sam contributed a lot to the Pellennor victory!

[Butterbeer]

Thank you, Butterbeer, I have reread the part about Sam and the Ring again.

I happily announce that Sauron is redeemed. He was not taking a bath after all. No baths ever for the Dark Lord! :D It is said that every tine Sam put on the ring he has felt the Eye's awareness, but the Eyesight was obstructed by the dark pall of smoke over Mordor. So Sauron was unable to locate Sam.

As for the dates: On the 13.03 at Ungol Pass Sam put the Ring on, but almost immediately followed the orcs underground. There he has lain unconscious till midday of 14.03 presumably with the ring still on. About noon 14.03 he has put the Ring on but briefly. At the time Sauron had grave matters in his mind: On the 13 the Orcs occupied Pellennor fields, on the 14 the assault of Minas Tirith took place. Denethor was looking in his Palantir, so Sauron had to show him selected pictures. He was trying to locate Aragorn ever since he thought the other had the Ring. And at this crucial time he felt someone wearing the Ring and somewhere near! Poor Sau.

Perhaps Sam's unintended "teasing" of Sauron with the Ring distracted Sauron enough to overlook both the approach of the Rohirrim and the march of the Army of Dead from the South. It looks like Sam contributed a lot to the Pellennor victory!


I appreciate you taking the time to look that up Gordis, many thanks. Sauron was certainly pretty busy at this point then. Im glad we can categorically rule out the Bath theory (partly for fear of the thread spin offs; why couldn't he have had a bath wearing waterproof gloves? / were the rings not water-proof? would he have been ok in a shower? etc)
It's a novel theory regarding Samwise Gamgee! Think perhaps that "Teasing" Poor Sau (even unintended) is again a funny and choice use of words which i won't take too seriously (again it made me laugh) : although actually like you say it may well have played a part in distracting him and certainly in sewing doubt in sauron's mind.

With regard to your Historical approach (mentioned elsewhere i think) i think it has merits, for example the above about Sam: we can't really take this particluar one too far in terms of Sam's cause and effect, but i'm sure no one has probably formulated this particluar connection before: how Sam's use of the Ring in Mordor may have helped out in distracting Sauron at a crucial time.
I,also, agree Olmer has many interesting points, though do not agree with all of them, he tends to take it too far for me personally - but i welcome his viewpoints and usually they do make me think!

Welcome to the Moot

[Gordis]

I,also, agree Olmer has many interesting points, though do not agree with all of them, he tends to take it too far for me personally - but i welcome his viewpoints and usually they do make me think!
Welcome to the Moot
Exactly my feelings!
And thank you so much.

[CrazySquirrel]

Perhaps Sam's unintended "teasing" of Sauron with the Ring distracted Sauron enough to overlook both the approach of the Rohirrim and the march of the Army of Dead from the South. It looks like Sam contributed a lot to the Pellennor victory!
I like the way you put the events together, fascinating! I also wandered why Sau with his Eye and Palantir has overlooked the Rohirrim and the Dead coming...