When Gandalf "figured out" The Ring?

[Olmer]

azalea...plan A assumes that the elves knew where the Ring was -- and they didn't until Gandalf figured it out

In my previous posting I explained why I think that Gandalf didn't have "memory lapses" and his forgetfulness is nothing but pretense....
So, how long did it take for our sharp-witted Gandalf to figure out what kind of ring Bilbo has had ?

Let's ask ourselves a few questions.

Did Gandalf know that Bilbo's ring was special?
In conversation with Frodo he is clarifying the difference between lesser rings and the Rings of Power, Great Rings:
"...many Elven-rings were made...But the GREAT RINGS, the Rings of Power, they were perilous"(LOTR, book I, chapter II).

Did he know how The One Ring look like?
Long time ago, when the White Council was formed and Saruman had not, yet, desired to compete with Gandalf, in their friendly discussion they talked about a definition between The One and the others Rings of Power: "The memory of words at the Council came back to me: words of Saruman..."The Nine, the Seven and the Three," he said, " had each their proper gem. Not so The One. It was round and unadorned, as if it were one of the lesser rings"...(LOTR, bookII, chapter II).

How many the Rings of Power?
Just 20. And exactly only one of them had no stone!
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out what kind of ring it was.

So, did it take 60 years for Gandalf to guess about the ring? Nope!
He felt right away that powerful aura of the Ring, and probably has jumped aside like nun from "Playboy ;) ":A shadow fell on my heart"...(LOTR, Book I, chapt.II)
The Grey Wizard identified the ring at once and in conversation with Frodo he accidentally not once reveals this knowledge .
This is his the most undisguised "slippage": "I wondered often how Gollum came by a GREAT RING, as plainly it was - THAT at least was CLEAR FROM THE FIRST"(LOTR, bookI, chapter II).

Why then, he didn't grab Bilbo and sent him with The Ring to Orodruin?
Because it was no need. For 60 years The Ring was safely tucked in a little hole in Hobbiton, which borders was constantly guarded And was guarded zealously day and night not ,specifically, for protection of self involved, ignorant to what is going on over the borders of their country , hobbits. For protection of The Ring!
"...even when I was far away there has NEVER BEEN A DAY when the Shire has not been GUARDED by watchful eyes" - says Gandalf (LOTR, book I, chapter II)

When the need arised the Elves and Wizard was very well aware who will be the Ring bearer, because for 17 years they allowed the Ring to bond with poor unsuspected Frodo and at present time he wouldn't willingly part with it. In a way they made him a kamikaze, who had no alternative choice.
And then were saying :"The Wise could never foreseen it."
What a hypocrisy!:mad:

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Olmer
Did he know how The One Ring look like?
Long time ago, when the White Council was formed and Saruman had not, yet, desired to compete with Gandalf, in their friendly discussion they talked about a definition between The One and the others Rings of Power: "The memory of words at the Council came back to me: words of Saruman..."The Nine, the Seven and the Three," he said, " had each their proper gem. Not so The One. It was round and unadorned, as if it were one of the lesser rings"...(LOTR, bookII, chapter II).

How many the Rings of Power?
Just 20. And exactly only one of them had no stone!
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out what kind of ring it was.

while never expounded upon... the statement "It was round and unadorned, as if it were one of the lesser rings" tells us that there were more rings than just the 20... gandalf may very well have had his suspicions about the ring from day one, but he was not necessarily sure... why else would he have made his trip to the libraries in gondor or spent so much time hunting down gollum?

in retrospect, it should have been clear to him that it was the one ring, since it did make the wearer fade and it was unadorned... but one must remember that the rings of power were far from his specialty at the time, and as he said, he did not remember saruman's statements on the issue till much later

one must remember that when the istari were sent to middle earth, they were intentionally "diminished", in a way, made more human... the idea that they, as maiar, had an endless store of memory and wisdom is not quite true

[Radagast The Brown]

I don't really believe Gandalf knew for sure that the One Ring is Bilbo's ring. he obviously speculated; but did not know.
3001 Bilbo's farewell feast; Gandalf suspects his ring to be the One Ring. The guard on the Shire is doubled... -Appendix B, page 1065.

Only in 3017, after Gandalf goes to Minas Tirith and reads the scroll of Isildor, hje realizes that it's the One Ring.

[Valandil]

Olmer, this DOES give some reason to wonder, but to give a counter-point to the notion that Gandalf knew right away, here are some reasons he could have possibly NOT known right away, indeed, not seriously begun to suspect until the night of Bilbo's birthday party - and did not truly KNOW until Frodo's fire revealed the writing on the Ring:

1. Tolkien missed it in his proof-reading and re-writing. As the story progressed, he DID have to make numerous changes to earlier portions of it - and he could have easily missed a few smaller points.

2. When Gandalf relates to Frodo that the whereabouts of the other 19 Great Rings are known... that was in 3018... this may not have been the case in 3001. Gandalf may have wondered about the possibility that it was a dwarven ring... OR... could one of the Nine Rings have been floating around?? After 17 years of research, he seems to have erased his doubts about those possibilities... but did he wonder about them between 2941 and 3001? And search them out from 3001 to 3018?

3. Could Gandalf be absolutely certain that the number of 'Great Rings' was known. Was there a chance of some 'unknown' rings out there, somewhere?

4. While Gandalf had some mis-givings about Saruman, he obviously still trusted him, to a great extent. I think he believed that Saruman had uncovered the truth about the One Ring, as Saruman claimed, and so he thought this MUST be something else. If he did not still trust Saruman, he would not have gone to Orthanc when he got the word from Radagast.

I think Tolkien's intent was that Gandalf did not know until that April day in 3018 at Bag End. If he left a 'gap' or two in the story concerning it, that's quite understandable (esp in the days before word processing, etc). :)

[Artanis]

My impression has always been that Gandalf erred about Bilbo's ring. From the signs and the evidence that were present, he should have discovered the true nature of the Ring much earlier. But he didn't, and I think it was partly because he subconsciously didn't want it to be The One Ring. He loved Hobbits in general, and Bilbo and Frodo specially much, and didn't wish for any harm to come to them, or to the Shire. So, for that reason, he put too little weight on the signs: Bilbo lying about how he got the Ring, Bilbo's seemingly everlasting youth. This was a great mistake on Gandalf's part. But at the birthday party the signs became too evident to overlook any longer.

[brownjenkins]

another thing... partially in line with Val's #1, and probably the most important

he had to make LoTR fit into the hobbit history after the fact... jrrt had to give reason for the sixty years of relative inactivity on gandalf's part... not connecting all the dots seems a lot more reasonable to me then some plot to extend the preservation of elven lands for a mere sixty years (which aint much in elven terms)

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Artanis
My impression has always been that Gandalf erred about Bilbo's ring. From the signs and the evidence that were present, he should have discovered the true nature of the Ring much earlier. But he didn't, and I think it was partly because he subconsciously didn't want it to be The One Ring.
The point is that we don't know how many rings were made in total. There were 20 rings of great power, with one to top it all, we know that. But if I'm not mistaken the Elves spent years and years making the rings. Maybe they made countless 'try-outs'. Who's to say that there hadn't been a large number of lesser magical rings? Maybe there were also other rings that gave their bearer invisibility, we don't know. But Gandalf would have. At least, I always got that impression. It may have been my imagination taking the words of the story a step too far but I always had the impression that there were more magical, but unspoken-of rings then the 20 that feature in the poem.

And what are the odds that the most powerful ring is found in such an unlikely place, by such an unlikely person?

It were only the later signs, such as the effect the ring had on Bilbo's more youthfull appearance that indicated there was more to the Bilbo's Ring than Gandalf suspected at first. In the beginning Bilbo's ring didn't look harmful or perilous, again it was only later when those effects became apparant.

Besides I'm sure Gandalf had many other worries besides the Hobbits, he didn't visit them so regularly, often at years interval. Nor do I deem it likely that he was reminded of the Ring every time he visited the Shire. I believe the riddle of Bilbo's ring had been for many long periods of time only in the back of his mind, to be dealt with when other important things had been handled.

(Olmer, I'm glad you came to the Entmoot, you start very interesting discussions. :))

[Forkbeard]

Originally posted by Artanis
My impression has always been that Gandalf erred about Bilbo's ring. From the signs and the evidence that were present, he should have discovered the true nature of the Ring much earlier. But he didn't, and I think it was partly because he subconsciously didn't want it to be The One Ring. He loved Hobbits in general, and Bilbo and Frodo specially much, and didn't wish for any harm to come to them, or to the Shire. So, for that reason, he put too little weight on the signs: Bilbo lying about how he got the Ring, Bilbo's seemingly everlasting youth. This was a great mistake on Gandalf's part. But at the birthday party the signs became too evident to overlook any longer. \

But at the same time, Gandalf was assured by Saruman who was head of the order and whose speciality was the Rings of Power that the One had perished and was no more. How could Gandalf, in spite of a few clues, go not only against Saruman's word on the subject, a subject Gandalf was ignorant of by his own words, and then try and figure out how the RING came to be leagues north of where it was lost. Also remember that Bilbo didn't tell the full and complete and true story of how he came by the Ring to Gandalf for a long, long time. So I don't know that we can say that Gandalf erred in anything save perhaps in not ignoring Saruman (and why would he at that stage?) and beginning to look into it that very day at the bottom of the pass through Mirkwood. He may have if goblins and wargs then the eagles then Beorn and then that Necromancer business hadn't pushed it from his mind.

Forkbeard

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Forkbeard
But at the same time, Gandalf was assured by Saruman who was head of the order and whose speciality was the Rings of Power that the One had perished and was no more. How could Gandalf, in spite of a few clues, go not only against Saruman's word on the subject, a subject Gandalf was ignorant of by his own words, and then try and figure out how the RING came to be leagues north of where it was lost. Yet Gandalf at first didn't trust Saruman enough to seek advice from him regarding Bilbo's Ring. As he said to Frodo: "I might perhaps have consulted Saruman the White, but something always held me back." Also remember that Bilbo didn't tell the full and complete and true story of how he came by the Ring to Gandalf for a long, long time. Well, Bilbo did tell Gandalf the true story long before the farewell party, and Gandalf never believed Bilbo's first story on how the Ring got into his possession. So I don't know that we can say that Gandalf erred in anything save perhaps in not ignoring Saruman (and why would he at that stage?) and beginning to look into it that very day at the bottom of the pass through Mirkwood. He may have if goblins and wargs then the eagles then Beorn and then that Necromancer business hadn't pushed it from his mind.True, Gandalf had no real reason to not trust Saruman at that time. But, I still think that he could have taken his doubts more seriously, and looked into the matter a long time before he actually did.

Eärniel, I think you're right in that there were more than 20 rings. But The One, the 9, the 7 and the 3 were the most powerful.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Artanis
Eärniel, I think you're right in that there were more than 20 rings. But The One, the 9, the 7 and the 3 were the most powerful.

Hey Arty, whose side you on? :p

j/k... about the rings though, that's the part we're reading right now for the discussion project, and yes, Gandalf says that the Elves made many other, lesser rings, but seems to limit talk about the 'Great Rings' to these 20... and says from the start it was obvious that Bilbo had found a 'Great Ring'. Now, I still hold it's possible that Gandalf didn't necessarily know in 2941 that there were no more than the 20, but DID know it in 3018... OR that Tolkien missed thinking all this through in his proofing. I DO think Gandalf comes off as honestly not having known until 3018 that this ring was the One Ring... and that he didn't even begin to suspect until the party in 3001. I think it was JRRT's intent to convey that anyway - and that it was the honest truth! :) :D (naive trusting soul that I am)

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Valandil
Hey Arty, whose side you on? :pWhat do you mean, whose side am I on? :p
I agree with this:I DO think Gandalf comes off as honestly not having known until 3018 that this ring was the One Ring... and that he didn't even begin to suspect until the party in 3001. I think it was JRRT's intent to convey that anyway - and that it was the honest truth! :) :DAnd this:1. Tolkien missed it in his proof-reading and re-writing. As the story progressed, he DID have to make numerous changes to earlier portions of it - and he could have easily missed a few smaller points.All I'm saying is that there were more than 20 rings, but the other rings were lesser ones. And that Gandalf should not have let his doubt sleep for so long time. I think that was a mistake, though an understandable mistake, because wanting to push away unpleasant possibilities is a quite normal reaction.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Valandil
Hey Arty, whose side you on? :p
She's on my side! Nananah! :p :D

;)
Originally posted by Valandil
OR that Tolkien missed thinking all this through in his proofing.
You have a good point. Tolkien didn't entirely know where he would end up at the end of LoTR when he started to write on his second 'Hobbit-story.' And LoTR is a substantial work too. There's no telling what little things differed from Tolkien's final view on the events of LoTR but that he missed to change or amend in revising.

Originally posted by Artanis
Eärniel, I think you're right in that there were more than 20 rings. But The One, the 9, the 7 and the 3 were the most powerful.
I agree. :)

[Olmer]

brownjenkins
...istari were sent to middle earth, they were intentionally "diminished", in a way, made more human... the idea that they, as maiar, had an endless store of memory and wisdom is not quite true
From practical point of view, would you send somebody who has sudden memory lapses on the mission, the success of which is crucial to a future existence of the world?
Istari were "diminished" to old, maybe, lame and sick, but dumb - I don't think so. To much were put at stake to allow such "imperfection".
it should have been clear to him that it was the one ring, since it did make the wearer fade and it was unadorned... but one must remember that the rings of power were far from his specialty at the time
Both, Gandalf and Sauron were wise and learned and before the big gap began to grow between them, they used to discuss the whole Ring's business and both know very well the true power of The Ring, for it was not designed to destroy the Middle -earth.
It was not that powerful, as Sauron wanted everyone ( especially the Elves) to believe, for its major capacities was a vampirish ability to PUMP OUT the magic power and the life force of the Elves or anybody else who will keep it, and therefore to help Sauron to return back in physical body.
Certainly Gandalf and Saruman knew about such powerful generator of magic.
This why it has such appeal to them, and they both desired it and were looking for it, thought, they had different intentions for it's use. But Saruman was looking in the books, and Gandalf preferred action to theory , which eventually paid off.

... why else would he have made his trip to the libraries in gondor or spent so much time hunting down gollum?
I think Gandalf made a one huge miscalculation : he did not isolate Gollum, he let him be. And Gollum was the reason why the Ring had stayed in Hobbiton just 60 years and not a few thousands
The need to do something with the Ring arised when Gandalf found out that Gollum had made known to Sauron the location of ring's safekeeping..
The Ring must be taken to some other location, or better, to be destroyed. But how to persuade the Council, and first of all Frodo, that this is indeed The One Ring of Doom?
You definitely can't give it to somebody from the Council to see what will happen...
And you have to have a very convincing prove that it 's carrying The Great Evil Power , which needed to be destroyed,that in comparison to this peril the life of any person would look pitiful and insignificant, because such task can be done by absolute and voluntary self- sacrifice. So, since Gandalf couldn't ask Saruman or Gollum about that "special marks" which is definitelly identify the Ring, he had to look for an account of previous owner, Isildur.
And , indeed, the trick with fiery letters, has made the needed impression on hobbit.


Earniel
There's no telling what little things differed from Tolkien's final view on the events of LoTR but that he missed to change or amend in revising.

Valandil


1. Tolkien missed it in his proof-reading and re-writing. As the story progressed, he DID have to make numerous changes to earlier portions of it - and he could have easily missed a few smaller points.
Did you ever paint? What is the biggest artist's frustration? To create a beautiful for every body's point of view painting, but for yourself to see all kind of imperfections in your work and restrain yourself from correcting it.
Because doing so you will just muddy the painting, eventually turning it into totally unrecognizable with an original.
I think Tolkien wrote the book under God's inspiration, but later he wanted to add "a finishing touches" and was not able to stop. In the end instead it became full of contradictions of which he himself already have lost a track.
I don't relay too much on his working notes AFTER the book, preferring "to look at original painting".
2. Gandalf may have wondered about the possibility that it was a dwarven ring... OR... could one of the Nine Rings have been floating around?
3. Could Gandalf be absolutely certain that the number of 'Great Rings' was known. Was there a chance of some 'unknown' rings out there, somewhere?
No. He said that KNEW that this is the Great Ring from the first time he looked at it. "I wondered often how Gollum came by a GREAT RING, as plainly it was - THAT at least was CLEAR FROM THE FIRST."(LOTR, bookI,chapter II)
Nine ring was also with stones...
About the number of Great Rings I'm sure he was "educated" by Cirdan and Galadriel and later by Saruman.

4. If he did not still trust Saruman, he would not have gone to Orthanc ....
Trusting and visiting is two different things.
Don't forget he was also visiting Dol Guldur.

Eärniel

And what are the odds that the most powerful ring is found in such an unlikely place, by such an unlikely person?
The odds was small, but the player ( grand-master Olorin) was very determined.

Olmer, I'm glad you came to the Entmoot, you start very interesting discussions
Thanks! I'm glad to be among such dedicated to J.R.R.T.and very knowledgeable people of this forum.

Forkbeard
I don't know that we can say that Gandalf erred in anything save perhaps in not ignoring Saruman (and why would he at that stage?) and beginning to look into it that very day at the bottom of the pass through Mirkwood.
He began to look start from the beginning.He was using hobbits for search.
And I think he repeatedly was blessing that day and hour when he came across these small dwellers, because they were perfectly suiting for such task.

Artanis
Yet Gandalf at first didn't trust Saruman enough to seek advice from him regarding Bilbo's Ring. As he said to Frodo: "I might perhaps have consulted Saruman the White, but something always held me back
Bilbo did tell Gandalf the true story long before the farewell party, and Gandalf never believed Bilbo's first story on how the Ring got into his possession. ."
Nice points! Analitical perception.!

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Olmer
From practical point of view, would you send somebody who has sudden memory lapses on the mission, the success of which is crucial to a future existence of the world?
Istari were "diminished" to old, maybe, lame and sick, but dumb - I don't think so. To much were put at stake to allow such "imperfection".

i think this reflects tolkien's ideas about free will and self-determination... obviously eru could have just stepped in and taken care of sauron himself, or the valar could have sent one of their own to take a more active role... but the desire was to make the people's of middle earth a part of their own salvation so it would actually mean something to them... the eventual downfall of sauron was never a question in eru's mind... in fact, the whole thing could be seen as a mode of moral development for all his creations, the people of middle earth and the valar/maiar

[Olmer]

[ brownjenkins
but the desire was to make the people's of middle earth a part of their own salvation so it would actually mean something to them...
the eventual downfall of sauron was never a question in eru's mind...
in fact, the whole thing could be seen as a mode of moral development for all his creations, the people of middle earth and the valar/maiari
Agree that this would be a reasonable explanation. How can we, humble, grasp the BIG idea, the Grand design which Demiurge has prepare for his creation?
With move of one finger he sends the whole countries full of living and breathing people into oblivion, so it would actually mean something to remaining others.
It is a cruel teaching. And we, poking with finger into his acts, in desperation to explain, coming with conclusion that it is for our own salvation :(
The whole book is saturated with idea of predestination - Eru's big map of everyone's life. I think free will and self -determination doesn't go along with it, cause on God's chessboard you allowed to move only in certain directions.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Olmer
The whole book is saturated with idea of predestination - Eru's big map of everyone's life. I think free will and self -determination doesn't go along with it, cause on God's chessboard you allowed to move only in certain directions.

it is a tough paradox... we like to think we were given free will, but sometimes i wonder if we are just given the impression of free will

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Olmer
Did you ever paint? What is the biggest artist's frustration? To create a beautiful for every body's point of view painting, but for yourself to see all kind of imperfections in your work and restrain yourself from correcting it.
Because doing so you will just muddy the painting, eventually turning it into totally unrecognizable with an original.
I think Tolkien wrote the book under God's inspiration, but later he wanted to add "a finishing touches" and was not able to stop. In the end instead it became full of contradictions of which he himself already have lost a track.
I don't relay too much on his working notes AFTER the book, preferring "to look at original painting".
I've experienced that frustration from first hand. Sometimes you have to leave a painting imperfect and refrain from further work on it that may ruin it entirely; but sometimes one has to take a gamble and paint a new layer over the old one to have a better result in the end. :) A book can have many different 'original paintings', because it can have many drafts, the original isn't necesarily the best - or the worst.

I get the impression Tolkien was a perfectionist, meaning (to use the painting analogy) he would have doubtlessly painted layer upon layer to get it right if he had gotten the chance. But he just ran out of time, at least, I got that impression from reading Letters.

I don't think the book is 'full of contradictions'. Those that are there, are minor and only stand out after a more detailed study and observing like we're doing now. I don't know where I read it, but I read somewhere that Tolkien intended Arwen and Aragorn's story to be reworked in the book itself, not just added in the appendices. So because LoTR is not completely 'finished' with all the changes and fine-tuning Tolkien wanted to do, can we really be sure about theories based on one or two sentences out of the book that may or may not have been intended to be changed?

I realise that with an argument like that, you can say of every sentence in LoTR that Tolkien may have wanted to change it. But again I'm under the impression that the chapters dealing with Gandalf's explication to Frodo about the ring and Gandalf's suspicions of it, were written early on where the full scope of events wasn't yet established. And so some of the later background concerning Gandalf's search for the identity of Bilbo's ring is lacking.

But you're right in the aspect that the 'original painting': the LoTR that we have now, is in its right more worth than the LoTR's that could have been. Still, I think it's interesting to keep in mind the possible changes that Tolkien might have made.

[Alcuin]

I think Gandalf suffered a failure to recognize an erroneous theory: Saruman claimed the One Ring had rolled down Anduin into the Sea. “There let it lie until the End,� he advised the White Council. Gandalf was uneasy, but he trusted Saruman until the day he stepped into Isengard and was taken captive.

Here is an excellent, topical (and I’m sure, controversial) article on this very subject. (http://quadrant.org.au/magazine/2015/06/climate-wars-done-science/) False notions are hard to get rid of, especially when they are deliberately planted. Saruman probably knew, or at least strongly suspected, the One Ring was still around: after all, he was looking for it, and only agreed to drive Sauron out of Dol Guldur when he discovered Sauron was looking for it, too!

Another example is the notion that Europeans thought the world was flat until Columbus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_flat_Earth) landed in the New World. Again, this is entirely false, and was deliberately perpetrated by people who knew it was a lie. Little Sarumans abound, all of them looking for their Ruling Rings. The truth is that mariners have known the world was round since at least the days of the Phoenicians (because of the hull-down phenomenon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hull-down)), and the Greeks not only calculated the circumference of the earth, but its distance from the sun and the diameter of the sun! Despite the misconceptions of Ptolemy under the influence of Plato, many Greeks also knew the earth revolved around the sun (http://www.astronomytrek.com/who-discovered-the-earth-moves-around-the-sun/). (I’m no fan of Plato: little Sarumans abound.)

But back to Gandalf. Saruman lied to him and the rest of the Council. Saruman knew, or strongly suspected, the truth: he had all the evidence before him and acted upon it. Getting rid of a false notion is very difficult. Writers are supposed have editors proofread their work. Researchers are supposed to solicit criticism before publishing their findings (peer review, which is itself falling under increasingly harsh scrutiny.) To whom does Gandalf go? To Saruman, then when his sense of Saruman misgives him, to Elrond and Galadriel. [Gandalf] said[,] “I was lulled by the words of Saruman the Wise; but I should have sought for the truth sooner, and our peril would now be less.�

“We were all at fault,� said Elrond, “and but for your vigilance the Darkness, maybe, would already be upon us.�They all trusted Saruman: they had no reason not to. It was treachery of a monumental scale.

If one of your basic assumptions is erroneous, it is just very difficult to identify and correct it!


As for loose ends in The Lord of the Rings, especially of the “errors and omissions� sort, I think Tolkien knew of several. I believe I recall that he either wrote about it, or perhaps I saw an interview in which he mentioned it, but I can’t find it; but I also seem to recall his saying that he wasn’t going to highlight them for anyone. I agree with Olmer that there comes a time to stop correcting a work of art. Da Vinci is supposed to have “corrected� his copy of Mona Lisa for decades, until he died. Francis I received it upon his death, I believe; the family of Lisa del Giocondo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_del_Giocondo) reportedly sold their copy centuries later (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isleworth_Mona_Lisa). If the Isleworth Mona Lisa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isleworth_Mona_Lisa) really is Da Vinci’s work, the difference is startling. There is a trade-off between publishing (Tolkien was under pressure from his publishers, pressure that led to considerable friction, so that Tolkien even approached another publisher) and perfection. He was never able to publish Silmarillion in his lifetime; and his son Christopher published History of Middle-earth in 12 volumes (13 with the index) in part because he was subsequently unhappy with his 1977 publication of Silmarillion: the amount of material was daunting.

[CAB]

Alcuin, I agree with you about “false notions� in general and about Saruman’s influence in particular being a factor. (In fact, I started this thread -http://entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=14759 - based on the same thought.) But this is just too much…...let’s say……..slap-me-in-the-face unmistakable evidence for Saruman’s lies to be a good excuse for missing it. A great ring without a gem is the One. Period. The other evidence (such as the other great rings being accounted for) isn’t even needed.

Now, Gandalf said he remembered the lesson he received from Saruman (regarding the great rings having each their proper gem...except the One), rather late. While searching for Gollum with Aragorn, I believe. Still, how could he not have wondered which of the great rings Bilbo had found immediately……..especially since there were only 20?

And even if Gandalf did believe that the One had ended up in the sea, his own words at the Council of Elrond show that he would still be concerned about it being found……

‘Then,’ said Glorfindel, ‘let us cast it into the deeps, and so make the lies of Saruman come true... ...in the Sea it would be safe.’

‘Not safe for ever,’ said Gandalf. ‘There are many things in the deep waters; and seas and lands may change. And it is not our part here to take thought for only a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world. We should seek for a final end of this menace, even if we do not hope to make one.’

And essentially an entire age of the world had already passed since the Ring’s loss.


Normally, I like to look at things such as this as an opportunity to view the story of Middle Earth in a different way…..to wonder about some of the things that must have happened but were never written about by Tolkien. Much like what Olmer did in the earlier posts in this thread. But I just can’t see Gandalf honestly missing this…...so I just accept this as an author’s error. Not that I hold that against Tolkien. Can you imagine writing something of the scope of Lord of the Rings, and the other works concerning Middle Earth and having thousands dissect it for …….what? decades at least! Error free is not within the realm of possibility.

[brownjenkins]

Still, how could he not have wondered which of the great rings Bilbo had found immediately……..especially since there were only 20?

It isn't entirely clear that there were only twenty. Celebrimbor was experimenting with ring-tech even before Annatar was part of the picture. Middle Earth history concerned what survived and was recorded, not what ever existed.

[Lefty Scaevola]

As I recall, key to Gandalf growing recognition that Bilbo's ring was a that it retarded aging of the bearer. That of course would meant that the recognition would begin to dawn Bilbo was old and not showing appropriates sings of his age.

[Alcuin]

As I recall, key to Gandalf growing recognition that Bilbo's ring was a that it retarded aging of the bearer. That of course would meant that the recognition would begin to dawn Bilbo was old and not showing appropriates sings of his age.I agree. The ring made Bilbo invisible, so Gandalf thought it a Great Ring. The key, though, as Lefty says, was that it gave its wearer long life. Only then did Gandalf count again (I assume he counted as soon as he learned Bilbo had a magic ring) and see that, however remote the possibility, Bilbo must have the One Ring. But then he had to prove it.

[W]e don't know how many rings were made in total. There were 20 rings of great power, with one to top it all, we know that. But if I'm not mistaken the Elves spent years and years making the rings. Maybe they made countless 'try-outs'. Who's to say that there hadn't been a large number of lesser magical rings? Maybe there were also other rings that gave their bearer invisibility… Invisibility was probably a necromantic feature of the rings, a bug to the Elves but a feature to Sauron the Necromancer. The intention of the Elves was to stop change, and particularly to halt the fading of their physical bodies in Middle-earth. For Mortals – Men and Hobbits – they also conferred long life – another necromantic feature. I suspect that, at least at first, it is possible that none of them conferred invisibility [edit: for Elves], because invisibility was something the Noldorin smiths were especially trying to avoid. Their effects on Men might be something else entirely, however; and Sauron might well have altered their effects once he seized them from the smiths. We can only be sure that the Three continued with the same intentions the Elves had through the end of the Third Age, and possibly Thráin’s Ring. Still, Gandalf did say he realized it was a Great Ring from the beginning.

Gandalf says that the Elves made many other, lesser rings, but seems to limit talk about the 'Great Rings' to these 20... and says from the start it was obvious that Bilbo had found a 'Great Ring'. The Three and the Nine were accounted for. He also knew the fate of Thráin’s Ring. (We might call its Durin’s Ring, since one of the Durins was its first non-Elven keeper.) All he had to do was eliminate the possibility that it was another of the Seven, but that might not be straightforward.

…Gandalf at first didn't trust Saruman enough to seek advice from him regarding Bilbo's Ring. As he said to Frodo: "I might perhaps have consulted Saruman the White, but something always held me back." … Gandalf had no real reason to not trust Saruman at that time. In the context of the story, it’s reasonable to suppose that, when Bilbo found Gollum’s ring, only Saruman knew for certain the fates of the Seven, sans Thráin’s Ring. Gandalf had not studied the Rings of Power. He could surmise that they were all either taken or destroyed, but Saruman was the White Council’s expert on Sauron and his devices. As for something always held him back from consulting with Saruman, intuition, we would say; Tolkien might say, the quiet urging of Eru, whose servant Gandalf ultimately was.

[T]here were more than 20 rings, but the other rings were lesser ones. … [Leaving the matter of determining the identity of Bilbo’s ring] was a mistake, though an understandable mistake, because wanting to push away unpleasant possibilities is a quite normal reaction.Yes, it is, and Gandalf could excuse himself because he was busy with other pressing matters: Saruman increasingly retreated to Orthanc, and I think we can assume Radagast was distracted and partly disengaged from the mission set forth by the Valar. As Eärniel put it, …Gandalf had many other worries besides the Hobbits, he didn't visit them so regularly, often at years interval. Nor do I deem it likely that he was reminded of the Ring every time he visited the Shire. I believe the riddle of Bilbo's ring had been for many long periods of time only in the back of his mind, to be dealt with when other important things had been handled.


...Gandalf was assured by Saruman who was head of the order and whose speciality was the Rings of Power that the One had perished and was no more. How could Gandalf, in spite of a few clues, go not only against Saruman's word on the subject, a subject Gandalf was ignorant of by his own words… I don't know that we can say that Gandalf erred in anything save perhaps in not ignoring Saruman (and why would he at that stage?) and beginning to look into it that very day at the bottom of the pass through Mirkwood… I return to the idea of the false notion, or better, false information – propaganda, if you will, misdirection – set forward by Saruman to deceive the White Council. Aragorn and Gandalf both indicated Saruman could deceive people using his voice, and this was more than his merely lying to them: they were induced to believe his statements reasonable and true. In such an important matter to Saruman – remember, he was diligently searching for the One Ring, even finding the bones of Isildur and the silver casket on a chain in which the son of Elendil kept the Ring – we should consider whether Saruman used this ability to dissuade the Council from looking any further into the matter, “Until that night when left [Bag End]. He said and did things then that filled [Gandalf] with a fear that no words of Saruman could allay.� Then Gandalf added, “I knew at last that something dark and deadly was at work. And I have spent most of the years since then in finding out the truth of it.�


Only in 3017, after Gandalf goes to Minas Tirith and reads the scroll of Isildor, hje realizes that it's the One Ring.It took him sixteen years and a great deal of travelling to discover the scroll of Isildur. And we should presume he did this without telling anyone, with the possible exceptions of Elrond and Galadriel, the other two Keepers of the Three, what he was doing.

I just can’t see Gandalf honestly missing this…...so I just accept this as an author’s error. I don’t think that Gandalf’s failure to recognize the One Ring is a plot hole or author’s error. It might be a weakness in the tale, but it doesn’t require any extreme exercise in suspension of disbelief (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief). It is the fabric Tolkien uses to stitch Lord of the Rings into The Hobbit, and the The Hobbit into the much greater tale, the full Silmarillion and Akallabêth of the First and Second Ages.

Olmer, I'm glad you came to the Entmoot, you start very interesting discussions. :)Ach! Where are ye hidin’, [b]Olmer?

[Attalus]

I think the point about Gandalf not worrying overmuch about Bilbo's Ring despite its powers of invisibility is well-reasoned. The Gwaith-i-MÃ*rdain would regard a ring that conferred invisibility and nothing else as gravely defective, since they wanted to preserve "all things unstained" and invisibility would fall under the rubric of "deceits" so scorned by Galadriel. Conceivably, such a ring might be offered to a mortal for services rendered. It was indeed when he saw that Bilbo was not aging according to the nature of Hobbits that his deeper fears would be aroused.