Olmer's POV on Gandalf.

[Olmer]

In re. of azalea guestion:What other priorities does Gandalf have, in your opinion?

Gandalf was a soldier sent with very direct order, kind like secret service man;) , and with an authority to make decisions.
So in this way he behaves like a soldier: to achieve the aimed task he sends people, who love and trust in him, on sure death without any remorse and wavering , but when time comes to lay down his own life on sacrifision table in the name of the quest, he does it the same way, without hesitation like a true soldier .
Gandalf was , also, a great politician and brilliant manipulator, the grand-master of the ME chess-play, as he used to call the whole ordeal. I sympathize to Sauron and all his military - political schemes, which quite often ask for respect and high regard, but they pale in comparative to Gandalf's action. If Sauron's moves are thought over and carefully prepared, Gandalf's moves are unexpected and refined, he gives it all an impromptu, which demands an inspiration, a pleasure of game for the sake of the game.
And we are talking here about the Demiurge of realities. You can’t look at him without awe and admiration. He MAKES things happen!
He is not infallible, nor evil or angel, he just a high spirit in human form sent by the High order, which stays much above other inhabitants of ME and therefore his idea about theirs expendability is quite in tune with Eru himself. "When his tools have done their task he drops them" (LOTR. BOOK VI ,chapt. VIII) - says Saruman about his old pal, who knew him much longer than naive hobbits or desperate to prove himself Dunedain .
As any other spirits he doesn't have human maladies such as sickness or the first stage of Alzheimer disease:D , on which he quite often trying to put a blame. He remembers everything and everyone, and in this light all his claims about being so dim-witted comes out as deliberate concealment of information in request to achieve the desired result.
In addition with his cunning and manipulative nature he has an ego bigger than mountains, and as I said, his priorities besides presenting himself as the world peacemaker, was presenting himself as the ONLY savior of ME. Only the wise and far seeing persons as Denetor and Saruman saw through him and acted accordingly. Saruman, at their last meeting at the door of Orthanc, clearly depicted his intentions and asked when it will it be enough to satisfy his enormous ego:”Later! Yes, when you also have the Key of Barad-dur itself, I suppose, and the crowns of seven Kings, and the rods of the five Wizards, and you have purchased yourself a pair of boots many sizes larger than those you wearing now.
A modest plan. Hardly one in which my help needed!“( LOTR, bookIII,ch.X), implying that his ego is the main reason why Radagast was deliberately pushed to his marginal role and the other wizards was conveniently dropped out of the enlisted help..
All in all, he achieved what he was aimed for.
:cool:

[Count Comfect]

To look at your quotes, I have some trouble trusting Saruman here. When he makes the speech about the Key of Barad-dur etc. he also insults Theoden with the "gibbets and crows" retort and is clearly in the middle of being a very pouty, sore loser in the wake of the total destruction of his army.
And unless my memory is bad (don't have the books here to confirm) the "tools" one is at Sharkey's End, where again he's being a sore loser. So the wise Saruman image just doesn't work for me.
And my objections to Denethor I've made quite clear elsewhere :D
My opinion of Gandalf would be that, yes, he's a master politician and soldier, but he's nowhere near as uncaring as you would cast him.
Thank you very much for the new opinions, though, as always EXTREMELY interesting and make me actually think about my own opinions... which is regrettably rare.

[azalea]

Thanks for the answer to my question, Olmer. It certainly is interesting to have a different point of view, even if I disagree with it!:)
(No time for a point-by-point right now, but I'll come back when I can.)

[Radagast The Brown]

As Count Comfect said, I wouldn't either trust Saruman. He tried to turn Theoden, Aragorn and the Rohirrim against Gandalf, which didn't really work. I don't think Tolkientmeant even for one second that these lies would work on the readers too.

And I also don't think Gandalf wanted to be the only savior - he did want help. He asked Saruman to join him, to beat Sauron, and Saruman refused. Besides, he didn't do all the job in LotR - and the saviors were mostly Frodo and Sam for destroying the One Ring, which detroyed Sauron - more than Gandalf, in my opinion.

About 'When his tools have done their task he drops them' - that's clearly wrong, because he was still friendly with Aragorn and the hobbits, although, by your theory, 'have done their task'.

[Nurvingiel]

I agree. Saruman was always wise, but when he was talking about Gandalf having the keys to Barad-dur, he lacked a complete grasp on reality.

Wisdom and a clear grasp of reality do not always coincide.

Very interesting thread Olmer. :)

[Count Comfect]

Oh, one more point just hit me in passing...
Saruman is the one who put Radagast in his bit part, sending him to find Gandalf. Gandalf told Gwaihir to rouse Radagast and his animals against Sauron, so he actually is the one who wanted to involve Radagast, not thrust him aside.

[brownjenkins]

i agree to an extent... one thing i've always argued is that gandalf knew from day one that frodo would not be able to willing or able destroy the ring in the end... so the logical conclusion is that he also knew that frodo might very likely be sacrificed in its destruction (and in a way, he was)... this was a risk gandalf was willing to take

that said, i think you go a bit to far when you say that saruman "clearly depicted his intentions"... if those were gandalf's intentions, why did he not simply take the ring when it was offered to him?

[Ithilgalad]

Sorry if I can´t give all the quotes you would me to... but I´ve given my LoTR to a friend of mine to read :)... but...

Originally posted by Olmer
...he sends people, who love and trust in him, on sure death without any remorse and wavering , but when time comes to lay down his own life on sacrifision table in the name of the quest, he does it the same way, without hesitation like a true soldier .


Gandalf: Peregrin Took, go back to the Citadel!

Pippin: (dazed) They called us out to fight.

Gandalf: This is no place for a Hobbit! (and a few seconds later) Now, back! Up the hill! Quickly! Quick!

Now that doesn´t sound to me like a person sacrifising others at pure will... rather like a father determined to keep his children save if possible.


Gandalf's moves are unexpected and refined, he gives it all an impromptu, which demands an inspiration, a pleasure of game for the sake of the game.


Pleasure of the game? Isn´t it rather a pressing matter to defeat the enemy that needs impromptu decisions? You can´t foresee an attacker´s moves... and as Napoleon once said (translated from my memory :)): Attacking is the best defence.


... says Saruman about his old pal, who knew him much longer than naive hobbits or desperate to prove himself Dunedain.


Saruman the Wise, once might have been the greatest of the Istari... but thought he might gain more power and influence under Sauron´s reign... now... who is the one wizard in search for superiority?


... his priorities besides presenting himself as the world peacemaker, was presenting himself as the ONLY savior of ME.


What exactly makes you think that? He refuses the ring when Frodo offers it to him ("Don't tempt me Frodo! I dare not take it. Not even to keep it safe. Understand Frodo, I would use this Ring from the desire to do good. But through me, it would wield a power to great and terrible to imagine."), which could give him enourmous power... and if his ego was really bigger than mountains one would think he´ld still try to use the ring. By the way... he willingly died in the mines of moria rather at the beginning of the journey... and I don´t believe he knew he would come back as Gandalf the White :) and if he knew... why die so LATE???... so how could he present himself as the ONLY savior of ME... being dead???

Ok, let me move on to Saruman the Wise... who, for example, said:

"Saruman: (telepathically) The world is changing. Who now has the strength to stand against the armies of Isengard and Mordor? (Orcs are seen crossing the bridge of Barad Dur) To stand against the might of Sauron and Saruman, and the union of the two towers? Together, my lord Sauron, we shall rule this middle earth."

... or perhaps:

"(Wild Men and orcs are attacking the village, attacking the people who are still there. Houses burn. The children look back from the top of the hill. Freyda is still crying.)

Saruman: (voiceover) Rohan, my lord, is ready to fall."

A person up to killing anybody that stands in the way, may it be men, women or even children... in order to be in charge of EVERYTHING... a dictator? Well, yes, that´s what I would call it... and let me ask you: Have you ever seen or learned about a dictator, gentle and noble, loving his people and doing everything to make them happy? I haven´t...


Only the wise and far seeing persons as Denetor and Saruman saw through him and acted accordingly. Saruman, at their last meeting at the door of Orthanc, clearly depicted his intentions and asked when it will it be enough to satisfy his enormous ego:”Later! Yes, when you also have the Key of Barad-dur itself, I suppose, and the crowns of seven Kings, and the rods of the five Wizards, and you have purchased yourself a pair of boots many sizes larger than those you wearing now.
A modest plan. Hardly one in which my help needed!“( LOTR, bookIII,ch.X), implying that his ego is the main reason why Radagast was deliberately pushed to his marginal role and the other wizards was conveniently dropped out of the enlisted help...

First... read my above stated PoV on Saruman the "Wise"... and then second... loosing is very hard for some... loosing his son Boromir definitely drove Denethor to loosing his mind... his decision to send Faramir to (almost) sure death doesn´t seem very wise and far seeing to me... not to mention his intention to burn himself and his son alive... Saruman on the other hand... he was loosing his men... his power... his staff... Some people run amok "just" loosing their job or their love... He is trying to "hurt" anyone close by... especially the one he thinks put him in this situation... not hoping for an escape but somehow thinking that discrediting Gandalf somehow will ease his pain... and before your quote is a description of Saruman: "Saruman's face grew livid, twisted with rage, and a red light was kindled in his eyes. He laughed wildly. 'Later!' he cried, and his voice rose to a scream." Not as I would see a "wise and far seeing" man... but rather a man who has been defeated... and who´s plans to rule the world have been overthrown maybe?...

Finally let post a passage I found on the web regarding the Istari (I could never express it that well myself :)):

TolkienWiki (http://www.thetolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?Istari)

That´s enough for now I think... my brain is already racked :D!!!

[hectorberlioz]

Hmm...I'm a bit sceptical on this Saruman thing...as Count Comfect pointed out, there are times in LotR when he is showing his true self, a sore loser.
Very grande ideas Olmer;) very wonderful:D

[azalea]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
i agree to an extent... one thing i've always argued is that gandalf knew from day one that frodo would not be able to willing or able destroy the ring in the end... so the logical conclusion is that he also knew that frodo might very likely be sacrificed in its destruction (and in a way, he was)... this was a risk gandalf was willing to take


You should have said a risk Frodo was willing to take. :)
Although he didn't know the full impact for himself at the time, he at least knew it would put him in mortal danger. It was Frodo's idea to take it. Gandalf would never have forced him to do anything. We might argue that understanding the risks perhaps better than Frodo did, he could have stopped him from undertaking the task. But he wouldn't have done that either, for several reasons; one being that he had respect for Frodo, that Frodo was his own master and knew his own mind. If Frodo said he was willing to do it, he knew he meant it. To disallow it would be to intervene forcefully-- it wasn't Gandalf's ring to decide about. The idea of free will for the characters runs throughout the book, and Gandalf also knows that Frodo was "meant" to have gotten it, so he trusts that Frodo will decide well.

[Valandil]

Olmer, has Saruman beguiled you with his words? This is the guy who launched an all-out war against Rohan, who used armies of orcs!!! Hardly the sign of a trustworty person. Then, just after saying these things (your second bolded quote - from 'The Voice of Saruman') ABOUT Gandalf, he urges Gandalf to reconsider - to go up to him... you want to TRUST what HE says about Gandalf?

I don't think Gandalf became the ONLY one of the Istari to fulfill his duty because he pushed the others aside... I think he was the only one of the five to really stick with the program. The blue wizards were not even in the picture. Radagast got distracted because he liked the birds and trees the best. Saruman was the one who obviously had the issue with pride - and wanted to achieve pre-eminence... and would stop at nothing to do so: taking a great fortress for himself, transforming that fortress into another version of the Dark Tower, using the palantir to try to gain knowledge for himself, imprisoning Gandalf, subverting the court of his neighbors and supposed allies, launching war against those same 'allies', using orcs as his soldiers (some of whom killed the heir of Denethor), trying to capture the Ring for his personal use... I suggest you take anything he says 'with a grain of salt'... or a bit more!

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by azalea
You should have said a risk Frodo was willing to take. :)
Although he didn't know the full impact for himself at the time, he at least knew it would put him in mortal danger. It was Frodo's idea to take it. Gandalf would never have forced him to do anything. We might argue that understanding the risks perhaps better than Frodo did, he could have stopped him from undertaking the task. But he wouldn't have done that either, for several reasons; one being that he had respect for Frodo, that Frodo was his own master and knew his own mind. If Frodo said he was willing to do it, he knew he meant it. To disallow it would be to intervene forcefully-- it wasn't Gandalf's ring to decide about. The idea of free will for the characters runs throughout the book, and Gandalf also knows that Frodo was "meant" to have gotten it, so he trusts that Frodo will decide well.

i understand what you're saying and agree

my only conditional support for some of what olmer is saying is that gandalf did not exactly tell frodo everything

as i said, i think gandalf must have known that frodo would be unable to destroy the ring in the end... that said, he did not say to frodo, "oh, by the way, there is no way you will be able to willingly destroy the ring, but i have a feeling getting you to the cracks of doom will be enough and fate will work out the rest"

i think it was probably a good thing that gandalf wasn't this frank, however, it could be seen as being manipulative

[Lefty Scaevola]

Olmer appears to be very receptive to the calumies promulgated by the dark forces, Sauron and Sauruman. Perhaps it is not just gulibility. Many thousands of years have past. Maybe Sauron is now returning to the world, first in cyberspace, a natural element for his purposes. If Olmer were to post his picture, would it be a Red eye, wreathed in flame, above a keyboard?
;)

[azalea]

Edit: Oops, I meant to quote Brownjenkins -- this is in response to his post.

LOL, I see what you mean. :) But then again, it goes back to whether or not one believes that Gandalf did indeed know that Frodo wouldn't be able to destroy it in the end. Since that is the view you hold, it makes sense that you would then say that he could have warned him more strenuously. But there are others, as you know, who think that he didn't know it, just like he didn't know about the ring.
Personally I think that he might have felt that since a) Bilbo was in the end able to give it up, and he had owned it longer and used it more than Frodo, that Frodo would have been able to destroy it, and b) since Frodo was a hobbit, coupled with the fact that he was the one who was meant to have it, he shouldn't nay-say about it -- "even the wise cannot see all ends" -- if he did he might either weaken Frodo's nerve and resolve ("the self-fulfilling prophecy"), or throw doubt about his ability in the eyes of all the others at the Council, not to mention make everyone feel even more hopeless about the whole thing. Gandalf is always very careful in what he says about what the future holds, and I think it is for fear that he would negatively influence the "grand plan." Wise indeed.:)

[Artanis]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
i understand what you're saying and agree

my only conditional support for some of what olmer is saying is that gandalf did not exactly tell frodo everything

as i said, i think gandalf must have known that frodo would be unable to destroy the ring in the end... that said, he did not say to frodo, "oh, by the way, there is no way you will be able to willingly destroy the ring, but i have a feeling getting you to the cracks of doom will be enough and fate will work out the rest"

i think it was probably a good thing that gandalf wasn't this frank, however, it could be seen as being manipulative But, Gandalf did demonstrate to Frodo at a very early stage that he would not be able to cast away the Ring, or try to harm it in any way. From LotR ch.2:‘But why not destroy it, as you say should have been done long ago?’ cried Frodo again. If you had warned me, or even sent me a message, I would have done away with it.’
‘Would you? How would you do that? Have you ever tried?’
‘No. But I suppose one could hammer it or melt it.’
‘Try!’ said Gandalf. 'Try now!’
Frodo drew the Ring out of his pocket again and looked at it. It now appeared plain and smooth, without mark or device that he could see. The gold looked very fair and pure, and Frodo thought how rich and beautiful was its colour, how perfect was its roundness. It was an admirable thing and altogether precious. When he took it out he had intended to fling it from him into the very hottest part of the fire. But he found now that he could not do so, not without a great struggle. He weighed the Ring in his hand, hesitating, and forcing himself to remember all that Gandalf had told him; and then with an effort of will he made a movement, as if to cast it away - but he found that he had put it back in his pocket.
Gandalf laughed grimly. ‘You see? Already you too, Frodo, cannot easily let it go, nor will to damage it. And I could not “make” you - except by force, which would break your mind.With this in mind, I think Frodo was aware that he probably would be unable to destroy the Ring. But of his own free will he was still willing to try, even if he should perish in the attempt, which makes him even more of a hero.

As for Gandalf as the great manipulator: This is what Tolkien said in letter #181:Gandalf is a 'created' person; though possibly a spirit that existed before in the physical world. His function as a 'wizard' is an angelos or messenger from the Valar or Rulers: to assist the rational creatures of Middle-earth to resist Sauron, a power too great for them unaided. But since in the view of this tale & mythology Power – when it dominates or seeks to dominate other wills and minds (except by the assent of their reason) – is evil, these 'wizards' were incarnated in the life-forms of Middle-earth, and so suffered the pains both of mind and body. They were also, for the same reason, thus involved in the peril of the incarnate: the possibility of 'fall', of sin, if you will. The chief form this would take with them would be impatience, leading to the desire to force others to their own good ends, and so inevitably at last to mere desire to make their own wills effective by any means. To this evil Saruman succumbed. Gandalf did not.

[brownjenkins]

i agree with your points azalea and artanis, with a few variations...

on the bilbo thing, we must remember that he was only able to give up the ring with a good deal of coaxing... and even then, giving it up is a far cry from actually being asked to destroy it... i think gandalf was following his heart in the matter, it was the best course of action on hand and the one that felt right... he knew frodo would not toss the ring into the fire at the end, but he trusted it to fate... he also did not want to make things sound hopeless to frodo, so he tempered reality a little bit

it's an understandable, and probably even wise manipulation... but it is manipulation none the less... much like gandalf's manipulation to have thorin include bilbo among the party to the loney mountain years earlier... well-intentioned, but slightly underhanded

tolkien saw it as evil to force someone to take a certain course of action... but did not have a problem with characters guiding others towards a certain action... after all, if it was to be left entirely to free will, there would be no need for the istari at all

[Valandil]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
i agree with your points azalea and artanis, with a few variations...

on the bilbo thing, we must remember that he was only able to give up the ring with a good deal of coaxing... and even then, giving it up is a far cry from actually being asked to destroy it... i think gandalf was following his heart in the matter, it was the best course of action on hand and the one that felt right... he knew frodo would not toss the ring into the fire at the end, but he trusted it to fate... he also did not want to make things sound hopeless to frodo, so he tempered reality a little bit

it's an understandable, and probably even wise manipulation... but it is manipulation none the less... much like gandalf's manipulation to have thorin include bilbo among the party to the loney mountain years earlier... well-intentioned, but slightly underhanded

tolkien saw it as evil to force someone to take a certain course of action... but did not have a problem with characters guiding others towards a certain action... after all, if it was to be left entirely to free will, there would be no need for the istari at all

I disagree, brownjenkins. For one, Bilbo did not know the nature of the Ring when he had his own struggle to give it up - and Frodo didn't know the nature of the Ring when Gandalf tossed it into his fireplace. Perhaps Gandalf was hoping that the knowledge of how ultimately evil and harmful the Ring was, would aid Frodo in 'setting himself' to destroy it. Also - I don't think he really felt he KNEW for sure what hobbits were capable of. He probably was uncertain that Frodo COULD do it, but perhaps felt that if anyone could, it WOULD be Frodo. And you gotta admit... he came awful CLOSE to doing it! :p :)

[Artanis]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
tolkien saw it as evil to force someone to take a certain course of action... but did not have a problem with characters guiding others towards a certain action... after all, if it was to be left entirely to free will, there would be no need for the istari at all I agree that Gandalf was guiding, but NOT manipulating, which is very different, because manipulating would sort under "make their own wills effective by any means".

[Valandil]

*gotta hand it to Olmer... he's got us all talking to each other again... and helping get this LOTR book forum moving again!* :p

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Valandil
I disagree, brownjenkins. For one, Bilbo did not know the nature of the Ring when he had his own struggle to give it up - and Frodo didn't know the nature of the Ring when Gandalf tossed it into his fireplace. Perhaps Gandalf was hoping that the knowledge of how ultimately evil and harmful the Ring was, would aid Frodo in 'setting himself' to destroy it. Also - I don't think he really felt he KNEW for sure what hobbits were capable of. He probably was uncertain that Frodo COULD do it, but perhaps felt that if anyone could, it WOULD be Frodo. And you gotta admit... he came awful CLOSE to doing it! :p :)

gandalf mentions the evil of the ring before asking frodo to toss it in the fire, and later he says:

"A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else's care — and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really done it. He needed all my help, too. And even so he would never have just forsaken it, or cast it aside. It was not Gollum, Frodo, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left him."

and it may very well have been the ring that chose in part to leave bilbo... seeing a possibility for a reunion with sauron through frodo... which was pretty close too ;)

hobbits were his best option for getting to the cracks of doom, but he knew that in the end something else would have to bring about the ring's destruction

[brownjenkins]

Manipulation: shrewd or devious management, especially for one's own advantage.

gandalf was being shrewd

saruman was being devious ;)

[Valandil]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
and it may very well have been the ring that chose in part to leave bilbo... seeing a possibility for a reunion with sauron through frodo... which was pretty close too ;)


On the contrary, I wonder it the Ring was influential in Bilbo's 'wanderlust' - his desire to go a-traveling. This same thing happened to Frodo the longer he owned the Ring - just as the same urge had hit Thrain when Sauron was seeking to gather the lesser Great Rings to himself (and maybe also Thror - though he also left his ring behind, as Bilbo would later). I think Sauron would have been calling for the Ring (or - if he was truly unaware that it still existed up to a point - the Ring itself may have been aware of his growing strength) - and that it would have tried to drive its owner onto 'the road' - in hopes of returning to its maker.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Valandil
On the contrary, I wonder it the Ring was influential in Bilbo's 'wanderlust' - his desire to go a-traveling. I doubt it, but it's an interesting thought. I think Bilbo had an inherent taste for adventures and traveling all his life, and that was in part why Gandalf chose him to be the burglar. Didn't some of his uncles on the Took side take to traveling too?

[Mrs Maggot]

"When his tools have done their task he drops them"
I don't really agree with this statement. I suppose when you are talking about him 'using' people you are referring to characters such as Frodo, Bilbo and other members of the fellowshiup, as well as Denethor, Theoden and possibly some of the elevs as well.. But at no point do I see him abandoning them. He remains involved with Bilbo long afterBilbo has given up the ring and therefore 'served his purpose'. Gandalf can no longer learn anything more from Bilbo about the ring that will be any help to him whatsoever, yet he maintains his interest in him and looks after him until tehy go into the west. The same can be said for Frodo. He tends to treat the other characters as equals rather than pawns; we can see that he has great respect for Aragorn as well as the elves, and even for Bilbo.

Would you say that Gandalf 'uses' Theoden? I have been thinking about this and in some respects it may appear this way, as Gandalf turns up just in time to wake Theoden up to reality and save Rohan from being destroyed. It could be said that he only does this so that Rohan can later come to Gondor's aid and defeat Sauron's armies, thus fulfilling Gandalf's ultimate purpose. But in this case, I think that even if Gandalf did use theoden and the Rohirrim, it was not necessarily a bad thing. Just because he 'used' them doesn't mean that it didn't have positive outcomes for them. Theoden regained his dignity and revived his country because of Gandalf's intervention.

[Olmer]

brownjenkins
Manipulation: shrewd or devious management, especially for one's own advantage.
gandalf was being shrewd
saruman was being devious
Well said!:)
First of all, let me compliment you on your sharp observation.You really READ every sentence of the book and ASK questions.
it's an understandable, and probably even wise manipulation... but it is manipulation none the less... much like gandalf's manipulation to have thorin include bilbo among the party to the loney mountain years earlier... well-intentioned, but slightly underhanded
Slightly underhanded?!!:(
He IS a manipulator of extra-class, and will try every possible way , if using Artanis words, to "make their own wills effective by any means". He manipulated Thorin and dwarves, Bilbo, Frodo, and , unsuccessfully, Aragorn and Denethor.
Just to back up your words on Thorin business...
The dwarves would go quite fine without Bilbo, it's Gandalf, who persuaded them that it's essential to include the Hobbit. About his true reason for it we could talk later, if somebody will be interested. Now I want to make my point how Bilbo was coaxed to join the Dwarve's group.
It’s very interesting to follow all Gandalf’s moves, see how he went out of the limbs to make it possible, using trickery and magic, coaxing and intimidation.


Right from the start Gandalf was using a very well known and quite effective psychological trick of persuasion: make it look like the whole idea itself actually came from the person you want to convince:
"....I will give you what you asked for." ---"I beg you pardon, I haven't asked for anything!" ---- "Yes, you have! Twice now!...I give it you"...

Then, not bothering about an immaculate Bilbo's reputation, without his knowledge, Gandalf put the mark on his door, which was labeling Bilbo as a professional burglar, living it up to him to deal with consequences:
"...with the spike of his staff scratched a queer sign on the hobbit's beautiful green front door..."
Then, just the same way in the secret he erased the mark from the door, leaving an ingenious hobbit to wonder :what brought the host of dwarves specifically to his own door, till Gloin told him:"...And I assure you there IS a mark on this door --the usual one in the TRADE(!??): BURGLAR WANTS A GOOD JOB"...
An this is no other than set up intimidation! I did not mention the open influence of Gandalf's dominating abilities:"...when Bilbo tried to open his mouth to ask a question, he turned and frowned at him , and stuck out his bushy eyebrows till Bilbo shut his mouth tight with snap."

Then Bilbo became a subject of a banal hypnotic alteration, "...Bilbo forgot everything else, and was swept away into dark lands under strange moons"... And under this influence"..something Tookish woke up inside him"...
But next day ,when his"...Tookishness was wearing off".. Gandalf had to use stronger "modification", which turned Bilbo into zombie-like person without memory or sensible control on his actions:" To the end of his days Bilbo could never remember how he found himself outside"...

azalea
It was Frodo's idea to take it. Gandalf would never have forced him to do anything.

Frodo‘s idea was to take the Ring to Rivendell and then to see what will happen, because Gandalf told him that somebody else will take that burden to bear.
...he had respect for Frodo...Gandalf also knows that Frodo was "meant" to have gotten it
Give me a break!:rolleyes: With such respect I could put on you an uranium handcuffs an say that it is a gift and you MEANT to have it.
Gandalf is always very careful in what he says about what the future holds, and I think it is for fear that he would negatively influence the "grand plan.
You absolutely right! He was very careful in keeping his “grand plan” out even of his friends knowledge.

Valandil
He probably was uncertain that Frodo COULD do it...
But he was CERTAIN that Frodo has no other choice, because he was already binded to ring .”Already you too, Frodo, cannot easily let it go...And I could not “make" you - except by force.”
...the Ring itself may have been aware of his growing strength) - and that it would have tried to drive its owner onto 'the road'
Interesting point! The ring is driving the carrier in the search for more powerful owner.

[brownjenkins]

so olmer, your theory as i see it:

the elves did not want the one ring destroyed unless absolutely necessary (i agree)

gandalf was in league with the elves and did his best to postpone the ring's destruction as long as possible (i disagree)

it's clear from much in the book that the elves did not want to destroy the one ring and lose the three in the process... and one could argue that they did little to ensure it's destruction after the last alliance... though one could also trust the words of elrond, which are basically all we have, and assume he did not want to force the issue

all that said, the idea that gandalf went through all these manipulations just to gain sixty years for the ring-bearing elves doesn't really make sense

what's sixty years to an elf?

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Olmer
[B]brownjenkins

Well said!:)
First of all, let me compliment you on your sharp observation.You really READ every sentence of the book and ASK questions.

Slightly underhanded?!!:(
He IS a manipulator of extra-class, and will try every possible way , if using Artanis words, to "make their own wills effective by any means". He manipulated Thorin and dwarves, Bilbo, Frodo, and , unsuccessfully, Aragorn and Denethor.
Just to back up your words on Thorin business...
The dwarves would go quite fine without Bilbo, it's Gandalf, who persuaded them that it's essential to include the Hobbit. About his true reason for it we could talk later, if somebody will be interested. Now I want to make my point how Bilbo was coaxed to join the Dwarve's group.
It’s very interesting to follow all Gandalf’s moves, see how he went out of the limbs to make it possible, using trickery and magic, coaxing and intimidation.


Right from the start Gandalf was using a very well known and quite effective psychological trick of persuasion: make it look like the whole idea itself actually came from the person you want to convince:
"....I will give you what you asked for." ---"I beg you pardon, I haven't asked for anything!" ---- "Yes, you have! Twice now!...I give it you"...

Then, not bothering about an immaculate Bilbo's reputation, without his knowledge, Gandalf put the mark on his door, which was labeling Bilbo as a professional burglar, living it up to him to deal with consequences:
"...with the spike of his staff scratched a queer sign on the hobbit's beautiful green front door..."
Then, just the same way in the secret he erased the mark from the door, leaving an ingenious hobbit to wonder :what brought the host of dwarves specifically to his own door, till Gloin told him:"...And I assure you there IS a mark on this door --the usual one in the TRADE(!??): BURGLAR WANTS A GOOD JOB"...
An this is no other than set up intimidation! I did not mention the open influence of Gandalf's dominating abilities:"...when Bilbo tried to open his mouth to ask a question, he turned and frowned at him , and stuck out his bushy eyebrows till Bilbo shut his mouth tight with snap."

Then Bilbo became a subject of a banal hypnotic alteration, "...Bilbo forgot everything else, and was swept away into dark lands under strange moons"... And under this influence"..something Tookish woke up inside him"...
But next day ,when his"...Tookishness was wearing off".. Gandalf had to use stronger "modification", which turned Bilbo into zombie-like person without memory or sensible control on his actions:" To the end of his days Bilbo could never remember how he found himself outside"... I don't think he really manipulated Bilbo fully... he just aroused (right word?) his Tookish side.

He did manipulated Thorin, but Thorin knew that. He wasn't convinced but agreed to take Bilbo anyway. From Unfinished Tales.

Still, Gandalf did nothing wrong. He had to do it to save the free Middle Earth - he says himself that without this journey, They would probably lose.

azalea

Frodo‘s idea was to take the Ring to Rivendell and then to see what will happen, because Gandalf told him that somebody else will take that burden to bear.

Give me a break!:rolleyes: With such respect I could put on you an uranium handcuffs an say that it is a gift and you MEANT to have it.

You absolutely right! He was very careful in keeping his “grand plan” out even of his friends knowledge.Frodo volunteered to carry the ring.
'I will take the Ring,' He said, 'though I do not know the way.'

I don't agree about Gandalf not respecting Frodo, during the story Gandalf did show signs of respect, especially in the end after the war.
But I don't have quote that Gandalf says 'I respect you' or something...

[azalea]

Olmer, I think we should make the Gandalf/ Thorin thing a separate topic, in the Hobbit forum. We need some good discussion there. :) I can see some of your logic on certain things, and I have more to say about it, but I have to go to sleep now, so it'll have to wait.

[Olmer]

brownjenkins
gandalf was in league with the elves and did his best to postpone the ring's destruction as long as possible (i disagree)

all that said, the idea that gandalf went through all these manipulations just to gain sixty years for the ring-bearing elves doesn't really make sense.what's sixty years to an elf?

I think it was two plans considering the Ring :destruction (Elrond and Gandalf) and preservation (Galadriel). That was her original design and she planned to employ Gandalf in its realization from the beginning, which he was tried to follow for 60 years. Then safekeeping of the Ring became known to the Enemy and Galadriel had to agree on execution of the second plan.


Radagast The Brown
Frodo volunteered to carry the ring.
quote:
'I will take the Ring,' He said, 'though I do not know the way.'
You forgot include previous sentence, which cast totally different light on his "volunteering"
At last with an effort he spoke, and wondered to hear his own words, as if SOME OTHER WILL was using his voice.
'I will take the Ring', he said...
He wanted to rest and remain at peace, but some other power DROVE him to volunteer.
I think that Valandil idea that the Ring itself have tried to drive its owner onto 'the road' very nicely supports it.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Olmer
I think it was two plans considering the Ring :destruction (Elrond and Gandalf) and preservation (Galadriel). That was her original design and she planned to employ Gandalf in its realization from the beginning, which he was tried to follow for 60 years. Then safekeeping of the Ring became known to the Enemy and Galadriel had to agree on execution of the second plan.Are you saying that Gandalf was persuaded by Galadriel to work against the destruction of the Ring? What in the text do you base that opinion on?

I agree that Nenya was made for the purpose of preservation. But I think Galadriel was always prepared to give it up, if Sauron was to be conquered. Galadriel was eager for power, but she also recognised evil wherever there was. She was strong enough to resist the One. I don't think she would go against an opportunity to destroy Sauron utterly, even at the cost of destroying Lórien.
You forgot include previous sentence, which cast totally different light on his "volunteering"
At last with an effort he spoke, and wondered to hear his own words, as if SOME OTHER WILL was using his voice.
'I will take the Ring', he said...
He wanted to rest and remain at peace, but some other power DROVE him to volunteer.
I think that Valandil idea that the Ring itself have tried to drive its owner onto 'the road' very nicely supports it. Then are you saying that the Ring drove Frodo to volunteer? I have always seen this other will to be the influence of a power much higher than Olorin, or Sauron, or the Ring. It fits nicely into what Gandalf said earlier to Frodo: Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it. Meant to by whom? The same power as pushed Frodo to take on the quest at the council.

[Olmer]

Artanis Are you saying that Gandalf was persuaded by Galadriel to work against the destruction of the Ring? What in the text do you base that opinion on?

"I it was who first summoned the White Council, an if MY designs had not gone amiss, it would have been governed by Gandalf the Grey.."(The Fellowhip of the Ring).
SHE summoned the most powerful Elves and Maiar to the council.
SHE contemplated the scheme of what to do with the Ring.
And SHE desided on who will execute her plan.
Artanis
She was strong enough to resist the One. I don't think she would go against an opportunity to destroy Sauron utterly, even at the cost of destroying Lórien.
She didn't need the Ring to rule, for she was already ruling,
but she didn't want it to be destroyed neither, for it's allowed her to keep things as they are - unchanged. She was more interested in preservation of the Ring. And the heck with Sauron as long as he stays out of the way.
I think the Lorien was destined to be destroyed and not by Sauron's ring, but by the more higher power.
Giving her 10 000 years experience , she was quite aware that trying to change the design of the worldmaker wouldn't be appreciated by Eru and wouldn't stay forever concealed from his attention. But, as long as its tied up to the Ring of Power, she can prolong the pleasure of the unchanging time, being quite safe from Eru's wrath and blame it on Sauron's cunning design.
Without protection of the Ring she had to move on or move out, opting for the second.
No, I don't think that she really desired to destroy Sauron.

Artanis
Then are you saying that the Ring drove Frodo to volunteer? I have always seen this
"other will ' to be the influence of a power much higher..
Remember what happen to nice old hobbit Bilbo when he saw the Ring? How Gollum was obsessed by the Ring?
What would happen to Frodo if somebody would volunteer to carry the Ring?
He would fight tooth and nails to get it back into his possession, cause the Ring already "grew on him".
I don't think that the Wise ones was not aware of it.
They KNEW that Frodo WILL volunteer.
The Power of the Ring and nothing else made him to take this task.

Talking about higher power at work Gandalf just excused himself for making a sacrificial lamb out of unsuspecting Frodo.