Teaching Lord of the Rings

[Forkbeard]

For those who might be interested, I'm teaching Lord of the Rings this month to freshman in an introductory literature class. I thought it might be interesting ot share their reactions to the books, not the movies as we go along if folks here are interested, while at the same time trying to invite commentary from all of you on how to make the experience richer for my students.

Today was the second day we've dealt with the LoTR. We're spending four days on each book. That isn't enough, and some are finding the pace grueling.

Monday I "lectured" (well, talked about) Tolkien's life, the writing of the LoTR, and other background types of stuff. They were to have read through book I.3.

Today I wanted to discuss two related aspects of the books with them, and this led of course to some other aspects. My topics for conversation were to note Tolkien's use of scene description: why is it so detailed in places and what function does it play in the novel. So we examined a scene as a class discussed Tone evoking emotion, dissolving the line between reader and character--i. e. you feel like you are one of the company travelling, you the reader are a witness to the events, and the passage of Time. The Time issue led to pointing out a) Frodo's age (we've discussed epic this semester to death, and one aspect of Epic is that the hero is never a young man, but rather a middle aged one.) b) and the calendar was touched on, the significance of when this journey starts for Frodo and when the climax happens.

We then moved on to discussing the role of Nature in the books, discussing the Old Forest and Tom Bombadill and the use of Nature and Scene.

For next class they're reading through the Council of Elrond, and topics of conversation will be names and language in Tolkien (not elvish, etc, but Tolkien's use of the English language) in addition to beginning to discuss the nature of Evil and the nature of Good in the books and to begin to observe characterization.

Any thoughts?

[Valandil]

Main thought: Cool!

You're local right... which school? :)

[The Gaffer]

:cool:

I'd be interested in your views of their views. What do they think about it? Does having seen the films influence how they read the text?

[Bombadillo]

That idea rocks. If you're asking for improvement, I think you could incorperate Olmer the mooter's ideas into your discussion, just for numerous points of view. Although that might be too confusing...

I think that is a very good pace, though. What level of classes do you teach?

As a student I've noticed that when you ask a kid's reaction to scene, they'll usually tell you what they think the author intended, and that's irrelevant. So besides from their "reactions" are any of your students really enjoying the book?

[azalea]

Oh, how I wish I had been in your class!!!:cool:
You teach high school freshmen, right?
Are you going to tell them about Entmoot as a resource for their studies?;)

[Forkbeard]

Hi everyone,

Thanks very much for your responses. Here's an attempt to address them.

Valandil: Check your PM

Gaffer: Well, there are mixed reviews. A number of those who haven't read it before are finding the detailed description of scenery tough going. Fortunately for me, I've told them that watching the movies is not a go! There are too many changes. Others are enjoying it very much. The films are definitely influencing how they read the work, I have to work hard to disabuse them of these notions.

Bomadillo: I probably will after we've gotten through most of the work, at this point I want to make sure they're reading the books, not watching the movies, and are thinking about the themes, the characters, etc. The class level is 100, freshman in college.

Aaalea: Believe me I wish you were in my class too! I do have one student whose paper will be on women in epic literature, comparing Penelope i n the Odyseey, the women in Song of ROland and Yvain with the women in LoTR; she's also bringing other works I know she';s read like SIr Orfeo into it too. I'm excited about that paper.
I teach college freshman and yes, I'll be letting them in on Entmoot before we finish. I don't want them to use the Moot to cheat.

FB

[Forkbeard]

The plan for today was for the class to have read through Council of Elrond. It quickly became apparent that the majority of the class had not read that far. The questions they were asking were largely answered in that chapter.

We did talk about Tolkien's use of language and names and I gave them a long term assignment to find out more about specifically names of things.

We started and went as far as we could with discussing Frodo's character. On Monday we'll see how they've gotten, but I'm hoping to discuss Frodo's character and the beginning of the change, Aragorn's character, the nature of Good and Evil, and perhaps bring up the nature of the Elves. We'll see.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Forkbeard

We did talk about Tolkien's use of language and names and I gave them a long term assignment to find out more about specifically names of things.


It is great idea, but boring assignment, unless all of them expected to be a phylologists. Don't get me wrong, I see you are honestly trying to get them interested in the book, but , so far many of them didn't even bother to read. Pity!
Give them something to use their gray matter, to look in the book for reference, to be their own detectives. Give them controversial things and ask them to contradict or to prove by quote from the book. (Young people like to be contradictive ;) ) Something like: what do you thing, is the Ring a device or living thing? Four chapters in the book will be sufficient for such answer .

[Forkbeard]

Originally posted by Olmer
It is great idea, but boring assignment, unless all of them expected to be a phylologists. Don't get me wrong, I see you are honestly trying to get them interested in the book, but , so far many of them didn't even bother to read. Pity!
Give them something to use their gray matter, to look in the book for reference, to be their own detectives. Give them controversial things and ask them to contradict or to prove by quote from the book. (Young people like to be contradictive ;) ) Something like: what do you thing, is the Ring a device or living thing? Four chapters in the book will be sufficient for such answer .

Olmer,

Thanks for the comments. You've hit on a central problem for me as a teacher. I am a philologist, at least as far as that is practiced in 2004, and part of my own initial attraction to Tolkien has always been the language--not just the invented languages, but his use of English. I know that that thrills few people, but I always struggle in all my teaching between teaching what excites me (always a good thing) and teaching what could excite them. On occasion the two intersect, but rarely, so I try and balance things out and compromise. Thus, I'm not completely unhappy teaching things I don't like to teach, and the students aren't completely unhappy at having to do something boring. But then I don't know that this compromise is necessarily the best either.

I'll take your advice though, and I think you're right. Mind if I steal your suggestion? ANd thanks!

Forkbeard

[Valandil]

Forkbeard - how did it go today? Did any 'catch up' over the weekend? In some ways, I wonder if the pace is tough for them... if it's hard to really enjoy it at that rate. For me, Tolkien has to be savored - and slowly is the best way. *sigh* College was a long time ago though, so I don't remember what college reading paces are like. I'm probably thinking in terms of trying to read it like that NOW... while I've got a job, a commute (driving! I used to read a lot when I took the el!), a wife and three small boys - along with other involvements... it's hard to squeeze in much reading at all! Is that similar to pacing you'd use for other books? What kind of percentage keep up with the reading of other assigned books?

(personally - for me, I'm glad I got to read Tolkien without having it assigned - that always made reading harder and less enjoyable for me... on the other hand, I'm glad to see teachers make use of it and expose people to it)

Hey - see my post in 'Happy Thread' - my kid's school has a 'novel set' of 'The Hobbit'!! :D I'm so excited! :)

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Forkbeard
Olmer,
I always struggle in all my teaching between teaching what excites me (always a good thing) and teaching what could excite them.

Mind if I steal your suggestion? ANd thanks!

Forkbeard
You are welcome any time.:)
I can understand you frustration. It is difficult to relay things, which exites you, to another person in the way, that will exite him too, because to do so you have to go down on this person level and try to relate the thing you are interested in with something what would be close to the interests of that person. In teaching position you have to relate to the inner interest of the whole class.
Not always you can do it successfully, but when you are putting your heart into your job it will never be a wasted efforts, because thoughts are material and the tiny seeds, which you planted in most inattentive person, with time could grow in unexpected potentials.
You are doing fine so far.Good luck!

[Forkbeard]

Originally posted by Valandil
Forkbeard - how did it go today? Did any 'catch up' over the weekend? In some ways, I wonder if the pace is tough for them... if it's hard to really enjoy it at that rate. For me, Tolkien has to be savored - and slowly is the best way. *sigh* College was a long time ago though, so I don't remember what college reading paces are like. I'm probably thinking in terms of trying to read it like that NOW... while I've got a job, a commute (driving! I used to read a lot when I took the el!), a wife and three small boys - along with other involvements... it's hard to squeeze in much reading at all! Is that similar to pacing you'd use for other books? What kind of percentage keep up with the reading of other assigned books?

(personally - for me, I'm glad I got to read Tolkien without having it assigned - that always made reading harder and less enjoyable for me... on the other hand, I'm glad to see teachers make use of it and expose people to it)

Hey - see my post in 'Happy Thread' - my kid's school has a 'novel set' of 'The Hobbit'!! :D I'm so excited! :)

Hi Valandil,
Thanks for the comments! Today's report to follow. But I wanted to address teh reading pace. It is grueling in a way. I tend to demand a lot from my classes and in this class they've ready some really tough stuff (and some fun stuff like the script to Monty Python and the Holy Grail or G. K. Chesteron's Man Who Was Thursday). As a reward for the grueling pace I designed the course to have NO reading assignments the last week of class. All they have to do is show up.

On the other hand, the pace isn't all that bad. The class meets 3x weekly, and the average LoTR reading assignment is between 70-80 pages per class. Split between 2 days, that 35-40 pages a day. So not a short amount, but not bad either, about 2 chapters a day. What do you think? Is that an exorbitant amount to read?

I do agree with you though that Tolkien should be savored. But I can't really justify to the department taking the entire semester on a single novel, even a 1000 page one. A month is difficult enough to justify. So if I want to teach this at all, then I have to have other things besides LoTR in the mix. It isn't a happy compromise, but hopefully enough of them will get hooked on the books that they'll come back to them and come here.

I have one student whose boyfriend is a HUGE fan of the movies, apparently they watch one of the movies almost every weekend. She's doing her paper on LoTR and the movies and comparing the handling of the 3 great love affairs in teh book (well, ok not so great) and their place in the structure of the novel. But this student is jazzed about the books, so is her boyfriend, and most of his friends and family--apparently she goes home and fills them all in on what we've done in class.

I have another student who today declared on his way out that he was shocked at how different the books and movies are, and how he loves the books now more than the movies.

On the other hand, I still have some students who aren't doing the reading....but then they haven't done a lot of the reading all semester long.

So anyway, a long story made unnecessarily longer....

[Forkbeard]

Originally posted by Olmer
You are welcome any time.:)
I can understand you frustration. It is difficult to relay things, which exites you, to another person in the way, that will exite him too, because to do so you have to go down on this person level and try to relate the thing you are interested in with something what would be close to the interests of that person. In teaching position you have to relate to the inner interest of the whole class.
Not always you can do it successfully, but when you are putting your heart into your job it will never be a wasted efforts, because thoughts are material and the tiny seeds, which you planted in most inattentive person, with time could grow in unexpected potentials.
You are doing fine so far.Good luck!

Thanks Olmer!

[Forkbeard]

Today went fairly well, a C+/B- sort of day. Topics of discussion were Frodo and his character, his relationship to the other Hobbits (who all seem "to do" for Frodo...that is, he doesn't seem to interact with the environment around him....he doesn't cook while camping, he doesn't lead the way, etc.....this isn't a criticism of Frodo, but I think it kind of a) parallels Bilbo in The Hobbit and b) foreshadows the end for Frodo), and Frodo's relationship with the Ring. We also engaged in discussion on the nature of Evil (twisted good) and the nature of the Ring. And I asked Olmer's question, is the Ring prop or character? There was good discussion by those who read it, and some attempts at discussion by those who watched the movies and think I couldn't tell. All in all, not too bad.

We're taking a fifth day on Fellowship, Wednesday, by which they should have finished the book. I've asked them to consider the nature of Good, the heroic Aragorn versus the more approachable Strider, the heroic Boromir, and Gandalf as characters. That's where we'll begin on Wednesday and I'll finish up with a quick discussion on the structure of Books I and II as I see it. Both books can be detailed as follows, numbers referring to the chapter numbers in both books.

I. Party and preparations
II. Counsels taken and given, resolve to leave with the Ring
III. The journey begins, danger encountered
IV. Journey continues, Danger increases
V. Here is a divergence: Bk. I we have a respite Bk II. Death of Gandalf, but I would argue that in Bk II chapters IV and V are the same chapter...that is, there is no real break in the action between them. Thus, both have increase in danger and near death at the end (Old Man Willow vs. Bridge at KD)
VI. Respite
VII. Test of the Ring Bearer (Barrow Downs (Leave friends and go free vs. Mirror of Galadriel)
VIII. Journey continues
IX. More journey, prying eyes, and most importantly, the company grows in number (Strider in bk I, Gollum, though not an official part of the company, is certainly dogging their steps now)

IXa. I forgot to mention chapters where ancient Numenorean ruins are encountered as well as Nazgul
X. Confrontation over the Ring, crossing of rivers that have important consequences.

Some of the parallels are stronger than others and some are arguable. IXa for example Weathertop and Frodo's wound is certainly a more momentous chapter than the Argonath and Legolas' shooting of the flying beast of a Nazgul on the river. But it is still an interesting parallel to me that in both we have anceint Numenorean sites with encounters with Nazgul, however brief.

So what do you experts think?

[amby21687]

Hey. I'm new to this Entmoot thing, so i've been reading over some stuff. I'd half to say that this is a great idea. As a 10th grader i know i would love to be doing this in my class. I think its great how your taking something thats such a common interest to teens and making it a learning experience. I like the idea that people will be actually reading the books and not just watching the movies. Its good to be able to compair them. I think you should talk to my english teacher! lol. Keep up the good work!

[Mrs Maggot]

Wow Forkbeard, that's really interesting. I'd never really noticed the structure of the books before. I can see it now that you've mentioned it… I've always considered LoTR too difficult to study as literature simply because of its length and detail, but I would have loved to have studied it at school. We did study the hobbit in Year 7 though– which was fun. Your approach as good because it's taking a big-picture look at it– not getting bogged down in the plot too much. I like Olmer's idea about getting them to actually read it by sending them on a hunt for quotes– maybe you could give them a few themes and get them to find quotes for each of the themes? well that's what i remember doing in English at school… it seemed to work pretty well cos that way they actually have to read it thoroughly or at least skim it and get a general idea. Man, i wish I was in your class. if they studies Tolkien at my uni I would so swap my major! Good luck with it and keep us updated… it's interesting to hear about it from our students' non-fan perspective.

[Forkbeard]

Thanks to all for their comments! I've fallen behind in posting here, but when the semester is done and the grades are in, I'll let you know what else we did and how I think it turned out, and ask for more input from you folks on how to do it better next time.

Forkbeard

[Valandil]

Hey Forkbeard... how did all this come out? :)

[Forkbeard]

Heya Valandil,

Thanks for the nudge. Well, mixed reviews I t hink. The biggest problem is that 5 weeks is simply not enough time. There is simply too much to deal with and too many pages to read. The students picked up on a number of things, though they had to be pointed to other themes besides "Good vs. Evil" and they had to be assisted to see that neither good nor evil were absolutes. Even Sauron could have repented.

So as much as I truly love that subject matter, I think I will not teach my Epic class again; at least not until I'm teaching upper classman or graduate students.

[Valandil]

Hang in there Forkbeard. Even if it didn't seem like it worked within the constraints of a class, maybe you piqued the interest of at least a few of them to give the books a more thorough reading at some later time. If so, you'll likely not even hear about it, but I hope you will. And I expect that some at least WILL go back and give them a good reading... maybe even this summer! :)

[Forkbeard]

Originally posted by Valandil
Hang in there Forkbeard. Even if it didn't seem like it worked within the constraints of a class, maybe you piqued the interest of at least a few of them to give the books a more thorough reading at some later time. If so, you'll likely not even hear about it, but I hope you will. And I expect that some at least WILL go back and give them a good reading... maybe even this summer! :)

Hey Valandil,

Its ok. The thing that is difficult for one such as me to learn (and we all go through this at big state universities) is that while we love our subject matter passionately, our students do not. And they likely never will, or at least we will never see it. The only class I've taught at this level that has not been this way has been Bible as Literature. But that is the nature of teaching freshman and sophmores in humanities classes: no matter how one attempts to find a way to turn the lights on, it won't happen unless the student first wants them turned on. Too often the switches are locked and guarded against one.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Forkbeard
Too often the switches are locked and guarded against one.
It does not matter. If you really tried to reach them, then the seeds were sawn.
Even the most unattentive will carry out the knowledge.

Looking back at my school days I see myself with bored look doodling on the page, half listening as my literature teacher reading poetry to the class with her face alight with emotions.
We called her "pain in the neck" because she asked from us not just a simple reading. Every book was a quest to conqeer. We were groaning at her wild and out of program projects, but after the school I found myself to continue thinking the way she taught us, and later this analitic and creative way of thinking helped me to deal with everyday life matters, not to mention to get life-long love for literature.
God bless teachers!
:cool:

[Forkbeard]

Originally posted by Olmer
It does not matter. If you really tried to reach them, then the seeds were sawn.
Even the most unattentive will carry out the knowledge.

Looking back at my school days I see myself with bored look doodling on the page, half listening as my literature teacher reading poetry to the class with her face alight with emotions.
We called her "pain in the neck" because she asked from us not just a simple reading. Every book was a quest to conqeer. We were groaning at her wild and out of program projects, but after the school I found myself to continue thinking the way she taught us, and later this analitic and creative way of thinking helped me to deal with everyday life matters, not to mention to get life-long love for literature.
God bless teachers!
:cool:

Thanks Olmer, I'll keep that in mind. It is after all the eventual goal: to get people to think.