The Lord of the Rings discussion: Chapter 1, A Long-expected Party

[cassiopeia]

Chapter 1: A Long-expected Party

Note to Newbies: This discussion has LOTR spoilers. If you haven't read the LOTR, go read it now. :)



The first chapter of The Lord of the Rings introduces some of the most important characters in what will eventually become the War of the Ring. We learn quite a lot about the nature of hobbits, and realise something is not quite right about Bilbo's ring. The name of this chapter is interesting: the first chapter of The Hobbit is called An Unexpected Party; a little wink to us from Tolkien, I think.

The first part of chapter one gives us background on Frodo and Bilbo and hobbits in general, quickly followed by Bilbo's party and disappearance, and the passing of the Ring to Frodo. These events occur some sixteen years before the War of the Ring. It is obvious in this chapter, and in the next few, that Tolkien is in 'The Hobbit mode'. He's still writing a sequel to The Hobbit, in style and content.

For those who haven't read the prologue or The Hobbit, it is quickly realised that there is some peculiar about Bilbo Baggins: he has treasure and possesses (apparently) perpetual youth. We meet Frodo Baggins as respectable gentlehobbit, though he is a Brandybuck, and Brandybucks are 'queer', so we know that Frodo is perhaps no ordinary hobbit either. Though Sam barely plays a part in the chapter, we learn a bit about him, too. We know he is a common gardener, working class, but he enjoys Bilbo's tales of dragons and elves and has even learnt his letters -- so he is not quite 'ordinary' either, judging from his father's disapproval. (And later in The Two Towers we are told not many hobbits learn their letters.) Gandalf is immediately seen as wise and trustful, though mysterious as well. Though some people think hobbits are a simple people, I believe this chapter shows them as complex individuals. We see them as thieves and gossips, and displaying vain, arrogant, humorous and angry behaviour.

In this chapter we first see Frodo's interaction with the Ring, though all he does is take the envelope containing it and glance at it inattentively. It is not exerting any power on him at this time, at least not obviously, even though Frodo is its new owner. I wonder if Frodo has seen the Ring before, or touched it before. Do you think he would feel something when he becomes the Ring's owner? Later chapters show that Frodo is unaffected by age like Bilbo, but I wonder if, during the years he owns the Ring, whether the Ring exerts its influence in other ways. In the next chapter, it is revealed that Frodo feels restless and wonders what is outside the Shire. Perhaps this is the Ring's influence. (And perhaps we should leave that discussion to the next chapter. :)

Tolkien shows us his unique brand of humour in this chapter: The number of guests at the party is 144, one Gross, a term not considered 'proper.' Mr Proudfoot thinks his family's name should be Proudfeet when it's pluralised. The gifts Bilbo leaves his relatives (my favourite being his gift to Lobelia: silver spoons.) I've read that some people think Tolkien didn't use humour well in the LOTR. For example, we have to be told the reason for the joke in many cases. In this chapter we need to be told why Bilbo's present to Milo is amusing: because he never answers letters. What do you think of Tolkien's sense of humour in the LOTR?

This chapter has a modernism, something which is obviously foreign to Middle-earth: the dragon firework fashioned by Gandalf is described as passing like an 'express train.' I wonder if either Tolkien did not find this when he revised the LOTR for the second edition, or whether he thought it didn't need altering. To defend Tolkien, he is translating this from Westron to English, and perhaps came upon a term he couldn't find a modern word for and decided that an express train was the best translation. :)

My favourite part of this chapter is Bilbo's speech, when he says, "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve." It is rather confusing, and I sympathise with the poor, confused hobbits. :)

Now discuss away!

[Maedhros]

The thing that struck me most about chapter 1 of the LOTR is the interaction that cassiopeia has mentioned already between Frodo, Bilbo and the Ring.
How is it that Frodo, a hobbit that could not bring himself to do any harm to the Ring:
From LOTR
Gandalf held it up. It looked to be made of pure and solid gold. ‘Can you see any markings on it?’ he asked.
‘No,’ said Frodo. ‘There are none. It is quite plain, and it never shows a scratch or sign of wear.’
‘Well then, look!’ To Frodo’s astonishment and distress the wizard threw it suddenly into the middle of a glowing corner of the fire. Frodo gave a cry and groped for the tongs; but Gandalf held him back.
‘Wait!’ he said in a commanding voice, giving Frodo a quick look from under his bristling brows.

We all know that at this point of the story, Gandalf has no real plans as how to deal with the ring, and because of the attraction that Frodo has for the ring, and the trust that Gandalf has of him, he seems like the perfect person to take care of it for the time being. But if Frodo at this time had already shown such possessiveness with the ring, was there any way that Gandalf could have found that would involve letting someone else carry the Ring?
You might want to look at this thread, that deals with this topic extensively: Why did Frodo volunteer to take the Ring? (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6347)

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Maedhros

We all know that at this point of the story, Gandalf has no real plans as how to deal with the ring,
On contrary. He knew pretty well what kind of ring was in Bilbo's posession And made his plans accordingly.
In this chapter we learned that Gandalf for some time bothered Bilbo quite a bit, being inquisitive about the ring, and that Bilbo's entire deal with the Birthday Party was set up with good old wizard help to make it 'easier to give up the ring' . Why he went out of his way to persuade Bilbo to give up the Ring ? Wouldn't it be easier if he would go with Bilbo to Elrond and then in the safety of the walls of Imladris they would decide what further to do with the Ring ?
Because it's safekeeping place became known. When Gandalf became aware that Sauron has found out of the true place of the Ring's safekeeping, he staged a great show with flashy Bilbo's disappearance infront of as many people, as it could possible, so the news, that the Ring is not in the Shire any more ,would get to Sauron faster and in more indirrect and thus is more believable way.


Another little surprising observation, that Gandalf was not that grandfatherly nice with Frodo and made the way into his house rather under treatening notion. I guess that his eagerness to get into the house even by means of blowing the door
"out trough the hill" could be explained by his anxiosness for the Ring safety.

It warmed my heart reading how carefully Bilbo preserved old worn stuff from his adventure, for him it was more precious then the value of his home, because it was the reminders of his unforgetfull adventure and unique experience. This and his eloquent way of speaking, and his itelligence made him stand out of the crowd, like a black sheep in the flock. Instead of admiration and respect he got mockery and was tagged as a queer .
No wonder that he eventually got tired of all this pretense to be nice to everybody who doesn't give a damn about him, and went to the place where was treated much better.

I feel very sad for poor Bilbo, that he had to leave his house being already very old. If you at such age risked to leave the place where you spent most of your life it means that you had been extremely unhappy there.

[Valandil]

A few points:

Maedhros: You're in Chapter 2

Party Attendance: If you read this part more carefully, practically everyone living nearby was invited, as well as some from other parts of the Shire and a few beyond... and many of those NOT invited were inadvertently overlooked - but just came anyway. It tells us that the guests were all given a splendid supper, except for those invited to the special family dinner party held at the pavillion by the party tree - this was the 144. Can't blame you for missing this - I did myself the first few / several times I read it. So the party actually included just about everyone around - and the 144 was a 'select group' from among those who came to the party.

Bilbo's Age and the Point of the Party: It has now been 60 years since Bilbo joined the Dwarves on their adventure to Erebor. This is his 111th birthday - he uses the term "eleventy-one" which is quite charming. He also uses the occasion of the 'long-expected' party to do something rather unexpected again... since he chooses this time to 'disappear' from the Shire, quite literally - by intentionally slipping on the Ring while concluding his birthday / farewell speech - and then going away, leaving Bag End, and The Ring, to Frodo (who incidentally, is turning 33 on the same date, September 22 of 3001 (1401 'Shire Reckoning') - and we learn that 33 is a hobbit's 'coming of age' - like our '21' - and indeed, they seem to live about 25-30 years or so longer than modern-age humans, in general). This action of Bilbo's forshadows a similar event later in the story.

EDIT: btw... good job Cass - and I should have said so to start with! Any time we talk about a chapter, I'm sure different things jump out to different people - and you did a great job getting this up and allowing discussion to start. As for the 144 thing - lots of people seem to miss that - I've even seen trivia questions answered and accepted that way. Besides, it's among that group that the main action of the party takes place. :p :)

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally posted by Olmer
When Gandalf became aware that Sauron has found out of the true place of the Ring's safekeeping, he staged a great show with flashy Bilbo's disappearance infront of as many people, as it could possible, so the news, that the Ring is not in the Shire any more ,would get to Sauron faster and in more indirrect and thus is more believable way.
_________________________
I think, on this point, I have a different reading. Gandalf used the
flash for the opposite reason, to disguise Bilbo's use of the Ring.

Bilbo: "Though that flash was surprising; it quite startled me, let alone the others. A little addition of your own, I suppose?"
"It was. You have wisely kept that ring secret all these years, and it seemed necessary to give your guests something else that would seem to explain your sudden vanishment."
==========================
And about the "I don't know half of you..." I imagine I'm about as swift as a hobbit. I had to stop and work out exactly what Bilbo was saying before I went on reading. Took me awhile, too.:D

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Olmer
On contrary. He knew pretty well what kind of ring was in Bilbo's posession And made his plans accordingly.I think you're wrong there. Gandalf did not make any plans in this chapter. Bilbo's plans of leaving the Shire was his own idea and his own decision, Gandalf merely approved them. The disappearance joke with the Ring was also all Bilbo's idea. I would guess Gandalf was not happy about that, in fact he added a little flashing of light at the moment of Bilbo's disappearance, to draw attention away from the Ring as the source for the magic. He wanted the Ring to be a secret.

Neither did Gandalf yet know the true nature of the Ring. When he says farewell to Frodo at the end of the chapter, he says:I have merely begun to wonder about the ring, especially since last night.I think Gandalf may have thought that the ring was one of the rings that the Elven-smiths made in Eregion long ago, but of the lesser ones. That would explain why he often questioned Bilbo about the Ring, but still wasn't seriously alarmed.

[Artanis]

About Tolkien's humour: I would like to know what's wrong with the description of the farewell presents? It's delightful. I also love the way he is describing the Hobbits, he does it with subtle and discrete humour, and with great affection.

I'm also fond of the Hobbit-words we learn in this chapter: 'tweens', 'eleventy-first', and 'jools', and 'filling up the corners' :p

And there's this quote from The Gaffer, which, if we are to believe Sam for the rest of the story, just him in a nutshell: "Elves and Dragons! Cabbages and potatoes are better for me and you. Don't go getting mixed up in the business of your betters, or you'll land in trouble too big for you." :p

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin

Gandalf used the flash for the opposite reason, to disguise Bilbo's use of the Ring.


If he wanted to disguise the use of the Ring he would made Bilbo
quietly disappear after the party without making him 'the talk of the town' and beyond. Of course ingenious hobbits took this as magic, but they who were looking for the Ring would know at once that disappearence connected with use of the Ring. It was its calling card.
Ironicaly Gandalf staged all this show to throw Sauron of the track, because he was thinking that Sauron was looking for the Ring, but all this spies, who was lurking around Shire, was sent by Saruman, who became suspicios about such close guard by Rangers of seems to be perfectly ordinary area.

ToArtanis .This happened when you just skimming over the pages. :) Dig deeper. Don't take literally what just lays on the surface. If you will read carefully next chapter it will reveals you that Gandalf, indeed, knew very well what kind of ring it was.

[brownjenkins]

on the sauron connection, at this point in time he had not captured gollum, thus knew nothing about the ring being taken by bilbo... sauron would not become aware of "baggins" and "the shire" for many years

[Radagast The Brown]

Olmer, Gandalf did not know that the ring of Bilbo is the One Ring. He had some speculations. He went to Gondor afterwards, as he says himself in the Counsil of Elrond, and figured it is the One Ring - and then came again to the Shire, to warn Frodo about it.
Gandalf knew it's the One Ring 16 years after Bilbo left (3017) and told it to Frodo in April 3018.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
sauron would not become aware of "baggins" and "the shire" for many years
:) But Gandalf didn't know about this, he saw the spies around the Shire,and ,naturally asumed that this is the spies of the Enemy (Who else if not Sauron? Saruman had been considering as a good guy at the time).
Why did he had a watch around the Shire and DOUBLED it for past seventeen years? Is not it too much commotion for a simple ring?

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Olmer
Why did he had a watch around the Shire and DOUBLED it for past seventeen years? Is not it too much commotion for a simple ring?Because Gandalf suspects it's the One Ring. He doesn't know. He assumes. Why do you think he let Frodo stay in Hobbiton, if he had the Ring?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Olmer
:) But Gandalf didn't know about this, he saw the spies around the Shire,and ,naturally asumed that this is the spies of the Enemy (Who else if not Sauron? Saruman had been considering as a good guy at the time).
Why did he had a watch around the Shire and DOUBLED it for past seventeen years? Is not it too much commotion for a simple ring? Olmer, Rad and brownjenkins are right. At the time when chapter 1 takes place, Gandalf did NOT know that Bilbo's ring was The One Ring, he was just slightly suspicious about it. The thing you mention about the watch around the Shire happened later.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Artanis
Olmer, Rad and brownjenkins are right. At the time when chapter 1 takes place, Gandalf did NOT know that Bilbo's ring was The One Ring, he was just slightly suspicious about it. The thing you mention about the watch around the Shire happened later. The double watch around the Shire started in the same year that Bilbo the Shire - "3001- Bilbo's farewell feast. Gandalf suspects his ring to be the One Ring. The guard on the Shire is doubled. Gandalf seeks for news of Gollum and calls on the help of Aragorn."

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
Why do you think he let Frodo stay in Hobbiton, if he had the Ring? It's not about Frodo, it's about the Ring.
Because at the time it was safiest place to keep.
Imagine, you got a thermonuclear charge capable to turn Middle -earth upside down. Will you walk around with it hanging on your neck? No. You will handle it with extreme caution and take it out only in extreme emergency case. And while it was stuck in some deep hole ,kept hidden and protected by unsuspecting of its damaging power hobbit, it was nothing to worry. Just neded an additional precousions as double-guarding the area.
The need to move it arised later and good old Gandalf sacrificed Frodo (innocent soul) handing to him (instead taking it with bilbo to Rivendell) this destroying body and soul devise.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
The double watch around the Shire started in the same year that Bilbo the Shire - "3001- Bilbo's farewell feast. Gandalf suspects his ring to be the One Ring. The guard on the Shire is doubled. Gandalf seeks for news of Gollum and calls on the help of Aragorn."

But I think Gandalf only begins to suspect it AFTER the events of and surrounding the party.

As we know from later material - Saruman has assured the White Council that the One Ring is safely gone - and I believe Gandalf states he only started to wonder if it was not so AFTER the Party.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Olmer
It's not about Frodo, it's about the Ring.
Because at the time it was safiest place to keep.
Imagine, you got a thermonuclear charge capable to turn Middle -earth upside down. Will you walk around with it hanging on your neck? No. You will handle it with extreme caution and take it out only in extreme emergency case. And while it was stuck in some deep hole ,kept hidden and protected by unsuspecting of its damaging power hobbit, it was nothing to worry. Just neded an additional precousions as double-guarding the area.
The need to move it arised later and good old Gandalf sacrificed Frodo (innocent soul) handing to him (instead taking it with bilbo to Rivendell) this destroying body and soul devise.

I think you have it wrong Olmer... Gandlaf was quite 'hands-off' about the whole thing, except for his insistence that Bilbo NOT take it with him. He did not plan where Bilbo would go after leaving the Shire - that was entirely up to Bilbo. He thought it prudent to keep Bilbo's ring in a place where he could know where it was at all times, observe it if needed, etc.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by Valandil
But I think Gandalf only begins to suspect it AFTER the events of and surrounding the party.

As we know from later material - Saruman has assured the White Council that the One Ring is safely gone - and I believe Gandalf states he only started to wonder if it was not so AFTER the Party. I did not sat he suspected before the party, only in the same year.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
I did not sat he suspected before the party, only in the same year.

OK - Olmer seems to be saying that, and I thought you were agreeing with him.

In either case, I think I'll have to re-read what it says about 'spies around the Shire' - I don't think Saruman would have known yet either, in 3001. Wonder if this is one that JRRT missed in his re-writes... or IS it in Chapter 2? I'll check.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Artanis
At the time when chapter 1 takes place, Gandalf did NOT know that Bilbo's ring was The One Ring, he was just slightly suspicious about it. The thing you mention about the watch around the Shire happened later.
The watch doubled not "later" but exactly at the time when it became evident that is no immediate danger to the ring and it could be kept in th hole for some time more.

Trust me, Gandalf DID knowfrom the beginning, what kind of the ring it was and J.R.R.T in his book backs it up in very straightforward words.

But this discussion is for the next chapter.:cool:

[brownjenkins]

i think the doubling of the watch was gandalf playing it safe... along with him wanting to find out if sauron was looking for bilbo's ring (i.e. he wanted to be the first to know if people were looking)

if he had the slightest suspicion that sauron knew about the ring he would have sent bilbo or frodo to rivendell on the spot with the ring... certainly a safer place... even in the shire, the ring would not have remained hidden for all the following years if sauron knew where to look

and in fact, once he did have evidence that sauron had suspicions, his first reaction was to have frodo head to rivendell

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Valandil
I think you have it wrong Olmer... Gandlaf was quite 'hands-off' about the whole thing, except for his insistence that Bilbo NOT take it with him. He did not plan where Bilbo would go after leaving the Shire - that was entirely up to Bilbo. He thought it prudent to keep Bilbo's ring in a place where he could know where it was at all times, observe it if needed, etc.
Why he is in such great need to "observe' the seems not so extaordinary little trinket?
Why he prefered to hande it with somebody else hands? Bilbo gave this ring up. Why he needed to give it to Frodo, instead of taking it to Imladris and 'observe' it there? Is it not a better place for safekeeping for unimportant ring with little magic abilities?
Because he KNEW of its damaging power and didn't want to put at risk himself or elves.
But ,hey, who cares about little gulible hobbits! It is too many of them, any way!:evil:

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Olmer
Why he is in such great need to "observe' the seems not so extaordinary little trinket?
Why he prefered to hande it with somebody else hands? Bilbo gave this ring up. Why he needed to give it to Frodo, instead of taking it to Imladris and 'observe' it there? Is it not a better place for safekeeping for unimportant ring with little magic abilities?
Because he KNEW of its damaging power and didn't want to put at risk himself or elves.
But ,hey, who cares about little gulible hobbits! It is too many of them, any way!:evil:

I think you're either being silly - or greatly misunderstand Tolkien's depiction of Gandalf:
* He didn't necessarily think there was a 'great need' to observe it - but he probably wanted to hedge his bets.
* He didn't take it to Imladris at the time because that would have been taking it FROM its rightful owner. Stealing it, basically.
* He has already suspected that the ring was at least a Ring of Power, but had not imagined before the Party that it was The One Ring.
* He cared every bit as much for the hobbits as he did for the elves.

As we see from later in the story, and from other source material on Gandalf and the other wizards, their whole purpose was to raise opposition to Sauron and to preserve WHATEVER they may of what was good in Middle-earth.

[BeardofPants]

Olmer, I think you're wrong as well. At this stage in time, Gandalf only has an inkling (heehee) that something is wrong. This is evidenced in the next chapter when we see an at length discussion of Gandalf's 'research'.

Can we bring in HoME stuff, or is that completely off limits?

[Lizra]

The story is set! ;)

"It (Bilbo's perpetual youth and inexhaustible wealth) will have to be paid for," they (hobbit gossipers) said. "It isn't natural, and trouble will come of it!"

..."Don't go getting mixed up in the business of your betters, or you'll land in trouble too big for you."......the Gaffer to Sam....

I think the word "drownded" is hilarious. :D also..."it was Drogo's weight as sunk the boat." :eek: ;)

Jools! :D

[Tuor of Gondolin]

"I think the word "drownded" is hilarious. also..."it was Drogo's weight as sunk the boat." "
_______________________
But: "And I heard she pushed him in, and he pulled her in after him".:eek:

Perhaps not surprising, since they were fooling around with a boat on a big river "and that ain't natural."

[Rían]

Thanks for the intro, Cass! I love the title of the chapter, too - such a great tie-in to the Hobbit!

I love the opening sentence - I wonder how long he worked on how to open this book?

I like very much the little character picture of Bilbo in the 4th paragraph - the fact that "he had many devoted admirers among the hobbits of poor and unimportant families."

I like the comfortable way that Bilbo invited Frodo into his house : "You had better come and live here, Frodo my lad, an then we can celebrate our birthday-parties comfortably together." Just such a humble and unassuming way to be very generous and loving to the orphaned Frodo.

I like the "Drownded", too! :D

I like the Gaffer's little rebuke to Ted Sandyman for calling Bilbo and Frodo queer : "If that's being queer, then we could do with a bit more queerness in these parts. There's some not far away that wouldn't offer a pint of beer to a friend, if they lived in a hole with golden walls."

I like the little character insight into Sam - the rumor of wonderful firewords was started "by the knowledgeable Sam".

Don't you wish you could have seen those fireworks!

I, too, like how the hood and cloak from Bilbo's journey were obviously precious to him.

I like how you can see Gandalf's affection for Bilbo in his parting words, spoken softly after Bilbo has left.

I love the description of how some of the guests had to be carted off! "Gardeners came by arrangement and removed in wheel-barrows those that had inadvertently remained behind."

I like the little hints of the great burden Gandalf was carrying, but which he didn't share with the hobbits - how he walks "almost as if he was carrying a great weight" and things like that.

[The Gaffer]

So, what is it with hobbits and genealogy? Is this an aspect of how they are obsessed with everyone knowing their place? Is this part of a reactionary vision of how things were better when people didn't get uppity?

[Forkbeard]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
i think the doubling of the watch was gandalf playing it safe... along with him wanting to find out if sauron was looking for bilbo's ring (i.e. he wanted to be the first to know if people were looking)

if he had the slightest suspicion that sauron knew about the ring he would have sent bilbo or frodo to rivendell on the spot with the ring... certainly a safer place... even in the shire, the ring would not have remained hidden for all the following years if sauron knew where to look

and in fact, once he did have evidence that sauron had suspicions, his first reaction was to have frodo head to rivendell

Just to add to BrownJenkin's comments:

1) Gandalf had promised Bilbo, and probably himself, to keep an eye on Frodo, two when he could spare them. If after the problems Bilbo had giving up the Ring made Gandalf suspicious, and he is going off to research ring lore to discover the truth of the matter, then he needs someone to watch the Shire. Since the Shire has been watched for a long time already because there was a magic ring in it, a dangerous thing among mortals, now that Gandalf suspects that it is a Ring of Power, one of the great rings, he naturally increased the watchufulness. At this point, I have to agree with Valandil, brownjenkins and others, Gandalf may have suspicions about this being the One, but only suspicions, and Sauon and Saruman have no idea yet that the One has been found.

2) It is good to remmeber as we look ahead to chapter 2, though not there yet, that it is almost twenty years between the party and Gandalf's revelation and final test that Frodo's Ring is the One Ring.

Forkbeard

[Forkbeard]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
So, what is it with hobbits and genealogy? Is this an aspect of how they are obsessed with everyone knowing their place? Is this part of a reactionary vision of how things were better when people didn't get uppity?

You know, I've wondered this myself. I've known serious geneologists and how almost crazed they can get, and I can't imagine a whole society of such.

I've had 2 somewhat competing, somewhat complimentary theories to explain the Hobbits interest in such things, and both of them are of the "source" nature rather than internal to the story.

First theory is that in Germanic literature in general, and Norse sagas and Old ENglish literature specifically, geneologies are important and frequently given. Tolkien who of course loved these literatures and taught them was influenced by them in his depictions of the Hobbits.

Second theory is that the Brits are hyper concerned, and have been for centuries, about the interrelationships of the gentry and royal families.

Any other takers on this question?

Forkbeard

[azalea]

Thanks so much, Cass!:cool: (I'm sorry I was late getting here to "stick" it, but I have visitors, and wasn't able to get on yesterday.)

I like your comment about Tolkien's deeper hobbit characters here. We hadn't gotten a taste of that as much in The Hobbit (just a little at the end). This chapter really helps the reader get a good picture of hobbits, esp. the Gaffer. I like this, because knowing him helps us to know Sam better when we meet him. And I, too, love the chapter title's parallel to ch.1 of The Hobbit (gives reader a sense of familiarity).

I think Frodo was probably surprised and honored that Bilbo gave him the Ring. It might have perplexed him, but I don't think he was particularly excited or eager regarding the Ring at this point. He was sad, more wrapped up in losing his beloved guardian and getting things settled back down after the party and bequeathal (is that a word?:p ).

The humor is excellent -- how can anyone say otherwise? It's like someone is telling me a story of how people were behaving, as in a conversation about an event. The "telling" doesn't bother me one bit, I still find it funny. Plus, it's all in the interest of adding layers, and you can't "show" every layer, some of it must be described. There's no problem there for me. A lot of this getting to know the hobbits makes me wonder, though, if he knew he'd be doing the Scouring at this point in the tale.
Also, I personally see the modernism to be looked upon as the author describing to the modern reader in his own words, not something that Bilbo would have said. He was not just relaying the tale, he was telling it in his own words. At least, that's how I see it. But I also like your idea of it being a comparable phrase to something written by Bilbo that was untranslatable, too.:)

A few things I jotted down during my read I'd like to bring up:
Their ages -- I love how he was able to align so many things about them -- 111 and 33 (I'll be having my own coming of age in a couple of weeks:) ), the ages equaling one gross, etc.

I wonder -- did he envision Frodo at Mt. Doom at this point?

The "class" issue is a lot more apparent here than in TH, aside from our being told there that he was from an old and wealthy family. The Gaffer's conversation at The Ivy Bush (aside from being extremely entertaining, as well as a clever device to add some exposition without saying it directly to the reader) is telling -- that Bilbo "learned" Sam his letters (person of the higher class teaching the lower), the Gaffer adding "meaning no harm...and I hope no harm will come of it" (as if learning letters equated to having aspirations beyond what he should -- similar to the comment about dragons versus taters, and the second part demonstrating the hobbit suspicion of the trouble that learning brings -- anything beyond the simple things in life are sure to bring trouble), then the comments about "your betters." I happen to think that aside from being perhaps similar to what Tolkien might have experienced as a youth in England (the class thing being a recognizable part of life), he is setting up not only Shire life, but also the character of Sam, the unlikely hero among unlikely heroes. Virtually powerless, yet crucial to community life (as food-grower, and plant-cultivator -- holding back the wilderness in his own way, a tie between nature and civilization, like an Entwife, in a way), just like those on the low end of the totem in modern society -- we tend to look down on those "below" us, but our lives would be much worse for not having them there. Anyway, so we are being led to see Sam as special, but it is also made clear that he is not apparently hero material. Tolkien may also be poking fun at what it means to be a "better" -- Sam blows away most other hobbits in terms of his heroism and importance in saving the world. So what does it mean to aspire to be like your "betters?" Sam was "better" than most of them, wasn't he? But part of what made him that was was his devotion and commitment to both Frodo (one of his "betters") and to doing what he knows to be right.

I'll have to stop here and continue later. I'm rambling.:)

BoP -- I hate to supress discussion, but I'd really like for these discussion threads to be based on what is in the text of LotR, and not bring in any HoME. I hope this won't discourage the voicing of opinions, but will encourage us to seek references in the text to support our positions.
Of course, if anyone simply must voice an opinion using HoME, we'd love to have threads started in this forum (outside of the project) about different issues.:) Please feel free to do that -- part of why we're doing this is to do that!:) (You can use quotes from anywhere you want in the other threads in this forum, in case any newbies didn't know).

[Linaewen]

Great job, Cass. :)

Originally posted by Artanis
About Tolkien's humour: I would like to know what's wrong with the description of the farewell presents? It's delightful. I also love the way he is describing the Hobbits, he does it with subtle and discrete humour, and with great affection.

Chapter 1 is one of my favourites for this very reason- I think that Tolkien uses the humour very well, particularly the present labels. His using it adds another aspect to the storytelling (Azalea's 'layers' I guess) - there's both lightheartedness and seriousness, laughter and tears in the novel.

It's interesting to note the transition from Hobbit-style storytelling to LotR style. This chapter seems to be in between, which is probably why I'm so fond of it.

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by Linaewen
It's interesting to note the transition from Hobbit-style storytelling to LotR style. This chapter seems to be in between, which is probably why I'm so fond of it.
That's probably because it was Bilbo who began to write it. I have sometimes wondered how would have been LOTR if its author was supposed to be Bilbo. Probably very different: more full of fantasy and of his ironical remarks :D

I have to re-read the thread and chapter, but I think nobody has mention yet the obvious connection between the titles of TH and LOTR's first chapters "An Unexpected Party" and "A Long Expected Party" :) A perfect title, also because LOTR was "long expected" and also a "party" for those who had read TH :cool:

[Rían]

Yes, several of us mentioned it! :D

[Nurvingiel]

As I somewhere else, probably the foreward thread, I always love how Tolkien writes as if he was honoured to observe the events.

This does give you the impression that Bilbo wrote the first part, Frodo finished it, and Sam wrote the very end and organized Frodo's notes into the appendicies.

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Yes, several of us mentioned it! :D
LOL:D That's what happens when you miss a thread for a couple of days! :p

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Forkbeard
You know, I've wondered this myself. I've known serious geneologists and how almost crazed they can get, and I can't imagine a whole society of such.

I've had 2 somewhat competing, somewhat complimentary theories to explain the Hobbits interest in such things, and both of them are of the "source" nature rather than internal to the story.

First theory is that in Germanic literature in general, and Norse sagas and Old ENglish literature specifically, geneologies are important and frequently given. Tolkien who of course loved these literatures and taught them was influenced by them in his depictions of the Hobbits.

Second theory is that the Brits are hyper concerned, and have been for centuries, about the interrelationships of the gentry and royal families.

Any other takers on this question?

Forkbeard

i brings me back to the passage i quoted from the prologue

Hobbits delighted in such things (genealogical trees), if they were accurate: they liked to have books filled with things that they already knew, set out fair and square with no contradictions

i think it might be a combination of the general nature of hobbits, very friendly and social, and their tendency to avoid adventure and confrontation... all in all, to avoid change

their history is sketchy... but one would imagine life before the shire was a rough one for generally good-natured beings like hobbits... in many ways i wonder if, upon reaching the shire, they wanted to "forget the past"

one way to do this, is to just not talk about it... of course, a better way is to focus on the present and develop strong yet new cultural anchors... this is reflected in the new calendar basing everything on the founding of the shire

discussing lineages probably served a few purposes... it reinforced tradition and stability in such a way that the "the shire" became all that was important in their world... it also provided somewhat mundane yet interesting social interaction while allowing them to avoid the more "risky" subjects like current events

in some ways i see it as strongly grasping to tradition... partly due to a fear that without it their peace and well-being might be lost in the process

whether tradition is truely needed or not to maintain social stability is a bigger question then i should get into here, but it is something you often see expressed in the world

i've heard similar theories concerning the british... holding on to their monarchy (though much more limited in power) both as a reaction to the events in the revolution in the 1600s, and as a symbol of stability thoughout the later centuries when many of the countries surrounding it threw out their traditions, and suffered for quite some time, possibly as a result

[cassiopeia]

Thanks everybody! Sorry for not being here for the discussion, but my computer died about an hour after I posted the introduction, so I suppose it's lucky I got it posted in time. :)

I want to make it clear I really like Tolkien's sense of humour. I had read in a book -- unfortunately I don't have it here -- that the author didn't like Tolkien's humour for the reasons I stated. But I think it's wonderful. I love 'drownded' too. :)

I *did* know there was more guests than 144, but Bilbo mentions this number in his speech, so that's why I added it. I wonder if Sam and the Gaffer were invited to the party, since in the appendices their names are not underlined. I suspect they were there in some capacity, but perhaps not 'officially'.

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
As I somewhere else, probably the foreward thread, I always love how Tolkien writes as if he was honoured to observe the events.

I love how you expressed that: honoured is the right word. Didn't Tolkien think, when he was writing, that he was finding out what happened, rather than making it up himself?

[Valandil]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
I *did* know there was more guests than 144, but...


Cass... sorry if I came on too strongly about this. I seem that way sometimes, but I probably didn't mean it like it seemed. In some ways, I make a point to mention it because for so long I didn't notice. And I DO think you did a great job! :)

[cassiopeia]

That's cool. :) I didn't want people to think I didn't know my Tolkien. :) My copy of the LOTR is falling apart because I thumb through it so often. I probably didn't notice it for a while, either; it's fun to find out something new when you read the LOTR again and again.

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
I wonder if Sam and the Gaffer were invited to the party, since in the appendices their names are not underlined. I suspect they were there in some capacity, but perhaps not 'officially'.

I had never thought of that. I had assumed that Sam was there, but now I'm not sure.

[Rían]

by Cass
My copy of the LOTR is falling apart because I thumb through it so often.
Yes, so are mine - they're held together by some packing tape. My Hobbit literally had pages falling out of it. I finally bought a hardcopy Hobbit, the one illustrated by Alan Lee with a gorgeous painting of Smaug on the front. I'd like to get a hardcopy LOTR next, in ONE book, to honor Tolkien's original intent :)

[brownjenkins]

i have this version

lotr (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0395193958/qid=1080672983/sr=8-6/ref=pd_ka_6/102-9696040-7818511?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

a bit expensive, but worth it in the long run

the only problem is it doesn't travel as easy as the paperbacks

[Valandil]

OK - finally getting the reading in... just first five pages so far.

"So Frodo is Bilbo's first and second cousin, once removed each way, so to speak." HILARIOUS! I was trying to remember if Frodo also had some Took in him (as well as Brandybuck), but hadn't checked a family tree yet - and sure enough, the Gaffer spells it right out for me! They were second cousins once removed on both of their father's sides - and first cousins once removed on both their mother's sides! :D :)

[Rían]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
i have this version

lotr (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0395193958/qid=1080672983/sr=8-6/ref=pd_ka_6/102-9696040-7818511?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

a bit expensive, but worth it in the long run

the only problem is it doesn't travel as easy as the paperbacks
Quite nice, Brownie! Are there any illustrations?

Yes, the paperbacks are nice to cram into a suitcase or stuff into a bag - I'll keep them for travel. Too bad I just had my bday :(

[brownjenkins]

no illustrations other than the obvious... but nice paper and type... easy on the eyes :)

[Lady Ravyn]

i have two sets: one that my mom bought in the seventies that's been read so much it's cover has been taped on multiple times :eek: and we recently broke down and bought a second copy; that one is hardcover, and has all three books in one volume. but it's really heavy, so it's hard to read.
so, with all those, i still ended up borrowing a nice sturdy, light-weight paperback version from the library :D

i luv the part with the present tags after bilbo leaves; i wish tolkien had included them all somewhere! :)

[GrayMouser]

It does say "Practically everybody living near was invited. A very few were overlooked by accident, but as they turned up all the same, that did not matter. "

I would say that, as both the Gaffer and Sam were employed by Bilbo, they would be there in the capacity as 'help' rather than as guests, and so weren't underlined in the Appendix.

Though I'm sure they ate and drank their fair share, and got a present :)

[Artanis]

In the appendix none of the Hobbits in Sam Gamgee's family tree, which includes the Cottons, are underlined. Were none of them invited? It may be that only the upper and middle class had recieved a formal invitation, and so were counted as proper guests. After all Bilbo wrote the invitations, and I guess lower-class Hobbits weren't able to read.

Just a thought.

[The Gaffer]

Well, it does say that "gardeners" came by prior arrangement, so maybe they were in the car park smoking tabs all night then came out at the end to wheel off the comatose hoi polloi.

It doesn't sound to me as if they were invited.

My copy of FOTR has been shedding pages from the back for a number of years. Have lost the map and am now down to the last page of the text. Nearly time to buy a new one methinks.

[Artanis]

I've got LotR, the Hobbit and the Sil as audio books also. No loose pages. :)

[The Gaffer]

Ah, but will they last 25 years? Tapes have a nasty habit of getting chewed up, and CDs, well, let's see if the format is still around.

A friend used to have The Hobbit on vinyl LP. It was a quadruple album, I think. :eek:

[Valandil]

A question of a different kind: is the surname 'Hornblower' at all common in the UK? I don't know of it at all hereabouts. What makes me curious is the series of CS Forester books about a fictitious British sea captain, 'Horatio Hornblower' - set in the Napoleonic era (similar to more recent 'Master and Commander' type stuff). I believe Forester began to write his books in the 1930's. Does anyone think Tolkien took the name from there, or is it a common enough name, or just 'funny-sounding' enough - or coincidental, or whatever?

BTW - I read all those Hornblower books and liked them quite a bit. Discovered them when in junior high - saw a reference to how the earliest concepts of the character for the captain of Star Trek's USS Enterprise was sort of based on him. I was a Star Trek fan, so I gravitated right to the 'For' section under 'Fiction' at the public library.

[azalea]

:mad: kicked offline....post lost...trying again...:mad:



Originally posted by brownjenkins


it also provided somewhat mundane yet interesting social interaction while allowing them to avoid the more "risky" subjects like current events



Great point!! (I had more to say about this in my original post, but twas lost, and I'm low on time)

Gaffer -- that four record set was how I first "read" The Hobbit. We checked it out from the library when I was a girl.

Valandil -- Horatio Hornblower was also made into a relatively recent trio of made for cable specials (A&E), starring the *yummy* Ioan Gryffudh (not sure on that spelling). They were great, but the one about the French Revolution was too violent for my tastes (too many beheadings). I think another one was going to be made at some point.

I have more to say on topic, but I have to go now!:mad:

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by azalea

Gaffer -- that four record set was how I first "read" The Hobbit. We checked it out from the library when I was a girl.

IIRC, it had some pretty cool background music, especially in Mirkwood, and no it wasn't by Rick Wakeman.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by azalea

Valandil -- Horatio Hornblower was also made into a relatively recent trio of made for cable specials (A&E), starring the *yummy* Ioan Gryffudh (not sure on that spelling). They were great, but the one about the French Revolution was too violent for my tastes (too many beheadings). I think another one was going to be made at some point.


Yes, I knew about those but didn't have our dish when they first came out. Saw portions of a couple as re-runs. Mostly stuck to the stories in the books - though of course they had to change a little and cut a lot - going from book to film, ya know! ;)

Have you read the books too?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Ah, but will they last 25 years? Tapes have a nasty habit of getting chewed up, and CDs, well, let's see if the format is still around.

A friend used to have The Hobbit on vinyl LP. It was a quadruple album, I think. :eek: I've got mp3 backups. :)

The Hobbit on good old-fashioned LP? I didn't know that existed. Cool.

[azalea]

Originally posted by Valandil
Yes, I knew about those but didn't have our dish when they first came out. Saw portions of a couple as re-runs. Mostly stuck to the stories in the books - though of course they had to change a little and cut a lot - going from book to film, ya know! ;)

Have you read the books too?

Unfortunately not, but they are on my "to read" list (along with a hundred others;) ). You should start a thread in GenLit about it. Maybe I'll be motivated to finally read one.:D


Stuff I didn't get to post earlier:

I like that dwarves and "other odd folk" were at the party, and that dwarves had come to help in getting things ready for it. I wonder who the dwarves were, and also what is meant by "other odd folk" -- hobbits from Bree perhaps? I wonder what Tolkien had in mind there.
I like that some of the toys given out were "magical," and were made by the dwarves. I'd love to have had a couple of them described. I wonder what they did that was magical?
Did I mention I love the description of the fireworks?:cool:

I love Tolkien's slow buildup of the Ring -- it's fabulous (Bilbo and Gandalf's conversation)! It goes from helpful magical ring to a negative force to be reckoned with in just a few pages.

Mathoms -- I love this term and the idea of this. I have many! It made me wonder if hobbits generated any trash, and if so, where did they put it? The Shire landfill?:D I think since they're environmentally friendly beings they would have kept most everything, and thus generated very little trash.

BTW, I have to comment that I think the idea that Gandalf staged Bilbo putting on the Ring is absurd.:p The whole reason he caused the flash was to mask the fact that it was there. He wanted the hobbits to think it was more fireworks, and that was how Bilbo disappeared, and did not want anyone to know Bilbo had it.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by azalea


BTW, I have to comment that I think the idea that Gandalf staged Bilbo putting on the Ring is absurd.:p The whole reason he caused the flash was to mask the fact that it was there. He wanted the hobbits to think it was more fireworks, and that was how Bilbo disappeared, and did not want anyone to know Bilbo had it.
Right. Gandalf didn't stage it, he TALKED Bilbo into staging it, because he MADE Bilbo agree on giving away the Ring and was making sure that he didn't forget about it when leaving all his belongins to Frodo:"Everithing?" said Gandalf. "The ring as well? You AGREED to that, you remember." And the whole "party business was all about, really: to give away lots of birthday presents, and somehow TO MAKE IT EASIER TO GIVE IT(the ring) AWAY at the same time ", in which Gandalf participated more than actively. If he would wanted to mask " the fact" why he wouldn't "mask" his disappearance with a subtle blue fog(for example) without focusing everybody's wandering attention on "blinding" flash?

If you want quietly to get out of the house, would you slam the door with big bang?;)

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Olmer
Right. Gandalf didn't stage it, he TALKED Bilbo into staging it, because he MADE Bilbo agree on giving away the Ring and was making sure that he didn't forget about it when leaving all his belongins to Frodo:"Everithing?" said Gandalf. "The ring as well? You AGREED to that, you remember." And the whole "party business was all about, really: to give away lots of birthday presents, and somehow TO MAKE IT EASIER TO GIVE IT(the ring) AWAY at the same time ", in which Gandalf participated more than actively. If he would wanted to mask " the fact" why he wouldn't "mask" his disappearance with a subtle blue fog(for example) without focusing everybody's wandering attention on "blinding" flash?

If you want quietly to get out of the house, would you slam the door with big bang?;)

I don't see how Bilbo disappearing in a suddenly arising blue fog is anymore subtle than a bang or a simple disappearance.

And Gandalf is a fire Maia- he doesn't do fogs- or subtle, for that matter:)

[brownjenkins]

i think the idea is that gandalf wanted to make it somewhat explainable... like a magic trick, you may not know how it was achieved, but you know it wasn't supernatural... the flash allowed for a quick escape as an explanation... if bilbo had just vanished, it would have been harder for the audience to come up with a rationalization and the disappearence might have even had more staying power than it already did

[Nurvingiel]

In addition, people will say he disappeared in a flash, instead of vanishing without a puff. That might tip off the Nazgul, or their agents, more if they overheard the gossip. The damage had already been done, but I think Gandalf was trying to mitigate it.

[azalea]

Sorry if I misread your first post Olmer, but it sounded to me like you were saying the whole thing was Gandalf's idea. All he cared about was seeing Bilbo off and making sure he knew where the Ring was. He knew Bilbo wanted to be rid of it, and Gandalf wanted to help him make sure that he did. But he never intended for Bilbo to use the ring to disappear in front of everyone. And he was merely going along with the other stuff (the party and permanent departure from the Shire), it wasn't his own idea. He was not a "micro manager" in that way. Bilbo could have taken it with him if he'd wanted to, but Gandalf knew from previous conversations that he had intended to give up the ring, and he knew that it would be best for Bilbo to do so, and thus he used his influence with Bilbo (their mutual trust) to help him to part with it at the last minute. He had a feeling that the ring might be more important than was previously thought, but he didn't already know it was the One (IOW, I agree with Artanis and the others in their assessment of this).
Someone may have already said this, but the increased watch was more likely due to the fact that there was more activity on the borders than there had been. I think if Gandalf thought the Dark Lord himself (through his underlings) were knocking on the Shire door, he'd have done a lot more than that.

I don't like the idea that Gandalf was being underhanded in his dealing with the hobbits at all. I think Gandalf is a complex character, but there isn't more than what we are presented in the story in terms of intentions (ie, he was acting in the interest of the free peoples of ME at all times, not his own, apart from where that benefits the ultimate goal of helping them to remain free). It's his exterior and demeanor that are gruff, but inside he is all good.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

this is the first time i have joined in on a discussion thread, so please be gentle with me ;)
in my opinion, the use of gandlaf's flare of magic was for the use of anyone who might (but shouldn't) be watching, i.e: any agents of the dark lord. i know gollum hadn't yet been captured by the enemy, but He had many spies in his service for instance crebain, from Dunland is it feasible that crows stayed in one small region, and did not wander?
The flash of light may also have helped to dispel rumours of 'vanishing without a trace', for later on, when the Nazgul had left Minas Morgul, and questioned various people, like the Old Gaffer Gamgee (later on in the book, i know).

As I say, this is my first discussion thread, so please be gentle with me!! :D :) ;)

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Olmer
Right. Gandalf didn't stage it, he TALKED Bilbo into staging it, because he MADE Bilbo agree on giving away the Ring and was making sure that he didn't forget about it when leaving all his belongins to Frodo:"Everithing?" said Gandalf. "The ring as well? You AGREED to that, you remember." And the whole "party business was all about, really: to give away lots of birthday presents, and somehow TO MAKE IT EASIER TO GIVE IT(the ring) AWAY at the same time ", in which Gandalf participated more than actively. If he would wanted to mask " the fact" why he wouldn't "mask" his disappearance with a subtle blue fog(for example) without focusing everybody's wandering attention on "blinding" flash?
Hm, I got the impression that the whole disappearing thing was Bilbo's idea and his alone and that Gandalf hadn't been so keen on the whole act but played along to please his Hobbit-friend. The only thing Gandalf really talked Bilbo into was giving up the Ring to Frodo. To give a party with lots of gifts to give, simply to make it easier to give this one precious thing away sounds to me just like an idea that a Hobbit would think of.

It was Bilbo's joke through and through. He nearly says so himself. And IMO it's really something 'queer old Bilbo' would come up with. :) He wanted to surprise the Hobbits, wanted them to have something to talk about. He didn't mind being called queer, I think he had accepted it and quite enjoyed being able to act funny since he already had that reputation.

The flash that Gandalf provided would, IMO, please the Hobbits more than some freaky fog.

[Rían]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
i think the idea is that gandalf wanted to make it somewhat explainable... like a magic trick, you may not know how it was achieved, but you know it wasn't supernatural... the flash allowed for a quick escape as an explanation... if bilbo had just vanished, it would have been harder for the audience to come up with a rationalization and the disappearence might have even had more staying power than it already did I agree. Bilbo was rather obstinate, and was going to disappear with the ring no matter what Gandalf said. Even if Bilbo had promised Gandalf to not do it, he probably would have changed his mind when it got to the actual time. I think Gandalf thought it was better to not fight Bilbo about using the ring, and just provide a flash to cover it up, instead. And as far as the fog - I think since Gandalf's "specialty" was fire and lights (or whatever it says - don't have books handy) - the flash is more Gandalf's "style".

[Nurvingiel]

I agree with Rian, the flash would also make it more believeable to the Hobbits.

And even when parting with the Ring, Gandalf didn't force Bilbo. He used all his influence with him as his friend, but he never threatened him or tried to take the Ring.

I think he was afraid of the effects the Ring would have on someone taking it by force - he didn't want to become a 'Sauron-wannabe'. (Interestingly, that's what happened to Saruman, due to studying ring-lore too indepth.)

[cee2lee2]

"bumping" for other latecomers, like me :)

[Mrs.Gimli]

The first chapter is very long :eek: :rolleyes: and very intresting I think :o
My favouoit people are:Stider,frodo,merry,gandalf,and,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,LEGOLAS :D Even though he is kinda dumb :) :rolleyes:

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

The first chapter is very long :eek: :rolleyes: and very intresting I think :o
My favouoit people are:Stider,frodo,merry,gandalf,and,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,LEGOLAS :D Even though he is kinda dumb :) :rolleyes:
but strider aka aragorn and legolas aren't in the first chapter :confused: