Why have Merry and Pippin in the Fellowship?

[Glorfindel_of_Gondolin]

This is a spin off from another thread, and may have been done before, but I think it's worth a look.

Gandalf is a Wizard, Legolas an Elf-Lord and the son of a King, Boromir, son of the Steward and a great man of Gondor, Gimli, a valiant Dwarf and relative to royalty, Aragorn, heir to both Gondor and Arnor and quite useful on a journey, and Frodo and Sam.

Frodo, for the Ring he can resist better, and is willing, and Master Samwise, his faithful servant and friend.

So, apart from giving the story more hobbit material, why were Merry and Pippin apart of the fellowship?

[Nurvingiel]

Legolas isn't an Elf-lord, but that's a minor detail, he was obviously a good addition. However, why not send Glorfindel instead of Legolas?

Merry and Pippin were added because Gandalf said that friendship is what would get them through dark times, or something like that. He must have seen some other wisdom as well - they were the catalyst that got the Ents to Isengard. Without this event, the Rohirrim might have fallen at Helm's deep, and there wouldn't have been those reinforcements for the Pelennor fields.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Glorfindel_of_Gondolin
This is a spin off from another thread, and may have been done before, but I think it's worth a look.

Gandalf is a Wizard, Legolas an Elf-Lord and the son of a King, Boromir, son of the Steward and a great man of Gondor, Gimli, a valiant Dwarf and relative to royalty, Aragorn, heir to both Gondor and Arnor and quite useful on a journey, and Frodo and Sam.

Frodo, for the Ring he can resist better, and is willing, and Master Samwise, his faithful servant and friend.

So, apart from giving the story more hobbit material, why were Merry and Pippin apart of the fellowship?

You're forgetting: Pippin ended up as the Thain of the Shire and Merry as the Master of Buckland... they must have been in line to inherit those lofty positions from birth! :)

[Beruthiel's cat]

Originally posted by Valandil
You're forgetting: Pippin ended up as the Thain of the Shire and Merry as the Master of Buckland... they must have been in line to inherit those lofty positions from birth! :)

I agree. They were in line to inherit important positions in the Shire, which would give them status enough to be part of the Fellowship.

Also, this tale is primarily told from the hobbits' point of view. They are used as the observers of the events of Middle Earth and the War of the Ring. If you read the narrative carefully, you will note that you rarely see things from Gimli's point of view or Aragorn's or Legolas'. The hobbits are the focal point -- we see the world through their eyes. Tolkien felt that this was important, so, as the action became more fragmented, he had hobbit observers in each location that critical actions and decisions were taking place. This decision made a tale of truly epic proportions more cohesive.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Legolas isn't an Elf-lord.

Merry and Pippin were added because Gandalf said that friendship is what would get them through dark times, or something like that. He must have seen some other wisdom as well
Legolas was son of the King of Mirkwood Realm. Is it not enough to be called 'the lord'?

About Gandalfs wisdom... it was not about the friendship to aid Frodo to get through his quest. It was about the Ring.
Indeed, a card hidden in his sleeve has turned in a trump ace! Hobbits, unknown for most of the world, the people, which, practically, unreceptive to destroying effect of the Ring, deprived aspirations to world supremacy, fair, ingenuous and devoted, people to whom it’s so easy “to hang noodles on ears�, and most important, people which nobody accepts seriously.
The Dwarves, the Elves, and especially the Men can’t be allowed to get close to the Ring. Fight would begin at once! And while the Ring stays in the hobbit’s hands , all pleased and nobody quarrels.
Who would become the Ringbearer if Frodo would been lost in Moria or in any other dangerous places? It seems to me - Sam... King has died, but the show must go on! And exactly for this reason there are 3 spare hobbits in group, instead of 3 pumped-up warriors. While at least one hobbit remain - the mission is alive.

[gollum9630]

Originally posted by Olmer
Legolas was son of the King of Mirkwood Realm. Is it not enough to be called 'the lord'?

that would make him an elf-prince then

I think Merry and Pippin were in the fellowship because, like Nurvingiel, and really Gandalf said, friendship is better in dark times then warriors. They provide emotional support

[Glorfindel_of_Gondolin]

I dunno, I recon that friendship aint much help when and orc is eating you.

Glorfindel, or any other Elves would have been a better choice.

From a purely tactical standpoint, I would rather a few more elves and rangers.

[Nurvingiel]

Ah, but they planned to rely more on stealth than strength of arms. If they were at the point where orcs were eating them, they'd be nearly finished anyway. (The times that this did happen they managed to eke out of it.)

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Ah, but they planned to rely more on stealth than strength of arms.
Absolutely right!
Gandalf clearly understand, that only small and quick hobbits, and not a crowd of destroyers with axes and bows , can filter in the heart of Mordor and therefore his plan was that after Lorien to sent the hobbits with the Ring to Orodruin, and with the rest of company to go down on the river to Gondor with shouts: "Yoo-hoo, Sauron, we are here! Catch , if you can! "

[hectorberlioz]

Myself, I was hoping that it would be Glorfinel who would be part of the fellowship, instead of Legolas. I still would prefer it, but its Tolkien's world, and he did it perfect. and he left us some juicy bits to argue about.;)

[Lefty Scaevola]

Keepping them in may have been PARTLY inertia, saving prior work. Recall that JRRT had begun writing LotR mostly as a tale of hobbit, and his first draft went as far as to a point between bree and Rivendell with an hobbit amin cast, including Trotter the Hobbit ranger, rather than the later Strider the Dunadan ranger.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by Olmer
Absolutely right!
Gandalf clearly understand, that only small and quick hobbits, and not a crowd of destroyers with axes and bows , can filter in the heart of Mordor and therefore his plan was that after Lorien to sent the hobbits with the Ring to Orodruin, and with the rest of company to go down on the river to Gondor with shouts: "Yoo-hoo, Sauron, we are here! Catch , if you can! "
Actually, we don't know what Gandalf's plan was, because Aragorn said at Amon Hen (or was the right before they entered Lorien) that he did not know what he had planned.

[hectorberlioz]

Well, I am quite sure that Gandalf had been worrying and planning for a very long long time...he wouldnt waste his time I'm sure.
But even when the time came, plans had to be changed due to the unexpectability of the enemy's plans, and because of Saruman.
Gandalf did have things planned out overall, but exactly how to carry them out was a heat of the moment thing.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Glorfindel_of_Gondolin
So, apart from giving the story more hobbit material, why were Merry and Pippin apart of the fellowship?
Let us see what the text says:
`That is because you do not understand and cannot imagine what lies ahead,' said Elrond.
`Neither does Frodo,' said Gandalf, unexpectedly supporting Pippin. 'Nor do any of us see clearly. It is true that if these hobbits understood the danger, they would not dare to go. But they would still wish to go, or wish that they dared, and be shamed and unhappy. I think, Elrond, that in this matter it would be well to trust rather to their friendship than to great wisdom. Even if you chose for us an elf-lord, such as Glorfindel, he could not storm the Dark Tower, nor open the road to the Fire by the power that is in him.'
Gandalf clearly states here that friendship is more valuable than strength and wisdom on this quest. I think Gandalf was fully aware of the excellent qualities of both Merry and Pippin. There was no one else who had learned more about Hobbits than him. He knew that they would be loyal, and brave, and that their presence would ease the burden for Frodo. What's more important, I also think he knew that the Hobbits would be less subject to the lure of the Ring. Would a powerful Elf like Glorfindel, for all his wisdom, manage to resist the temptation? We don't know.

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Artanis


Gandalf clearly states here that friendship is more valuable than strength and wisdom on this quest.

I think Gandalf was fully aware of the excellent qualities of both Merry and Pippin.



Gandalf was an old manipulator and his old Valinor's friend Saruman knew him better if he was saying"When his tools have done their task he drops them" (LOTR. BOOK VI ,chapt. VIII)
Friendship, o yes, as long as it serves the purpose, he could explain the decision to take worthless (if not a burden) on such perilous road hobbits by the power of friendship.

About hobbits excellent qualities I already said before. For sure they would be loyal and brave and ease Frodo's burden and even take it on themselves if by some unforseen accident Frodo will get out of the quest. And , as I said , their important qualities was their LONG RESISTANCE to the Ring and small size.

Glorfindel (or Legolas) with all their luck would never pass Mordor border, the alarm which was set on elves would make everybody aware of their presence. So the remaining party of Gandalf himself and the Dunedain will stick out like a sore thumbs in company of hobbits and, possibly, dwarf.
Originally posted by Nurvingiel Actually, we don't know what Gandalf's plan was...

Yes, we do.

" We must go down the Silverlode into the secret woods, and so to the Great River, and then -" (LOTR. Book II, chapt. III)... he is wisely getting silent about an inevitable split of the Fellowship.

[Valandil]

Olmer, it's become quite apparent (from this thread and the chapter discussion threads underway) that you either have a different take on the story than most of us, or that you have a twisted sense of humor - and just enjoy stringing us along. :p Either one of those is OK... though you'll certainly find that many will disagree with you. I hope that will never make you feel unwelcome or that any will get overtly hostile in their frustration as they respond to you.

As I see it (assuming the former is true - a 'different take') - correct me if I'm wrong - your 'interpretation' or 'application' of the story is to not take what Tolkien writes at face value. Is that so? So that, for instance - even when he depicts Gandalf and the Elves as benevolent to all... you see them as more self-serving... and just making use of the other 'free peoples' to help them achieve their own ends? That the perceived benevolence was just because the source writings were of hobbit origin and that they 'bought into' what Gandalf and the Elves were selling?

I guess it can come off as a rather 'cynical' view, but it may indeed be an acceptable way to interpret the story. I rather doubt it was what Tolkien had in mind... but hey, to each his own, right? And - I guess the cynicism fits right into our world as it is today. Also - it helps fill in certain parts of the story - to see Gandalf and the Elves as a bit less noble than they might want to appear. Still, as I say, I disagree... but still welcome your opinions and insights - and look forward to further discussion on the various matters that will arise from our differing viewpoints.

So... welcome still, you-with-whom-many-of-us-disagree (there must be an Entish word for that)! :p :) Have you 'checked in' at the 'Official Welcome Thread' for new members in General Messages yet? Also... not meaning to either pry or insult - but you write like some speak English who are from Eastern Europe - a Russian friend in particular. Are you of Russian extraction... or some other place thereabouts? Or is that just how you write? (my Russian pal was a suspicious one too... your name 'Vladimir' by any chance? ;) )

[Olmer]

Originally posted by Valandil
Olmer, it's become quite apparent...that you have a twisted sense of humor - and just enjoy stringing us along. :p
I hope that will never make you feel unwelcome ...

As I see it.. your 'interpretation' or 'application' of the story is to not take what Tolkien writes at face value.

That the perceived benevolence was just because the source writings were of hobbit origin and that they 'bought into' what Gandalf and the Elves were selling?

I guess it can come off as a rather 'cynical' view, but it may

. Also - it helps fill in certain parts of the story - to see Gandalf and the Elves as a bit less noble than they might want to appear. .

So... welcome still, you-with-whom-many-of-us-disagree (there must be an Entish word for that)! :p :) Have you 'checked in' at the 'Official Welcome Thread' for new members in General Messages yet? Also... not meaning to either pry or insult - but you write like some speak English who are from Eastern Europe - a Russian friend in particular. Are you of Russian extraction... or some other place thereabouts? Or is that just how you write? (my Russian pal was a suspicious one too... your name 'Vladimir' by any chance? ;) )
No, I'm quite serious.
Of course many will disagree with me and probably will label as "cynic", but I don't care as long as my opponents could express their point of view logically and with quotes to back up. I think this way allowed us to learn more about Tolkien work( not mention to make you read each sentence in the book more carefully and not just once.:) )
I began just like an ordinary Tolkien's fan (and I still am) till on one forum I read posting which was implying that, as you say, "Gandalf and the Elves as a bit less noble than they might want to appear". It was very logical and seemed to me undermined all my believes. It was so contradictory , so questionable that I wanted to find inconsistency in his postulates... I felt like an advocate who is trying to prove that his client was falsely accused.:cool:
Instead I found a new dimension of the book, a new meanings in the very sentences of Professor's work. A whole new world... in which previous J.R.R.T.contradictions seems not so adverse and loose pieces were falling in place.
And this is when I really got hooked on Tolkien .
:)
You got me right to the tee. My point of view is as the whole story seen by dwarf or Gondorian.

An the last. Yes, English is not my native language.
Yes, I am from Eastern Europe, but not Russian, even if I quite familiar with Russians, and my name is not Vladimir.:)

Ask your russian friend was it my nick 'Olmer' which affirmed his suspitions?
Olmer is a king without kingdom from russian trilogy about hobbits adventure 500 years later.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Olmer
An the last. Yes, English is not my native language.
Yes, I am from Eastern Europe, but not Russian, even if I quite familiar with Russians and my name is not Vladimir.:)

Ask your russian friend was it my nick 'Olmer' which affirmed his suspitions?
Olmer is a king without kingdon from a russian trilogy about hobbits adventure 500 years later.

Oh - I haven't seen that friend in awhile... almost two years maybe. It's just that your wording reminded me of him... I could picture HIM talking as I read your words. :)

[Dances with the Eagles]

I love Merry and Pippin. In fact, I thought Pippin got ripped off a little in the films.

It's been a little while since I have read the books and the movies are starting to mesh in. So feel free to correct me if I get jumbled.

One of the most touching things about Tolkein's writing for me is that he isn't finished at the "happily ever after" moment. He has a way of making me ache with a sense that when I turn the final page and close the back cover that there is life still moving in that world. That never fails to make me walk away with more of an awareness for the life around me in the "real world". It is a precious gift. These two little hobbits are so strongly a piece of that. After all of the hugeness of the war of the ring and the adventures and perils of the quest, Tolkein comes home to the shire. Merry and Pippin are the key leaders of the rise against the evil there. There is some whisper in me that suggests there was a smaller goal than I might initially guess at. I look at the story and see the destruction of the ring as the goal. Perhaps-- and I say with emphasis- perhaps, the entire quest was for smaller reasons. Perhaps the entire journey was to make Aragorn a true King, or to lead Eowyn to Faramir, or simply to raise two small, silly little hobbits into warriors that the shire might be saved. Frodo says before he leaves middle earth that often someone must loose something so that it might be saved for others (Sorry- I don't have my books in front of me right now so I can't give a better reference than that)

Now to link that suggestion to my initial remark of Tolkein's talent of make the life in stories so real: No character is empty. Even Grishnak is made with some depth. No character is empty. I am sure it is against every rule in the book to have as many names and characters as Tolkein done!!! But there is something important in every name. Each name has a life behind it, and that truth is honored. That depth of character is a contributing factor in that sense of realness that can make all my taste buds wake up! It's like eating a REALLY good dessert- sometimes the best part is that the aftertaste lingers and it's yummy.

So that was probably a very broad response to "why Merry and Pippin?"

Here is another brief suggestion- not sure if it belongs in this forum, but I’ll toss it out there anyway: There seems to be an unspoken knowledge that throughout the quest, Illuvatar/Eru is still the maestro. Perhaps here we see the working of small things for the sake of accomplishing far more than possible. From a biblical point of view it echoes verses such as "And we know that God causes all things to work together for the good of those who love God to those who are called according to His purpose" (Romans 8:28) and "...according to His purpose who works all things after the council of His will" (Ephesians 1:11). If Merry had not gone, who would have been with Eowyn on the Fields of the Pelanor? If pippin had not come, who would have been rash enough to steal the palantir stone from Gandalf? If he had not looked into the stone, Sauron might not have been distracted enough to overlook 2 small hobbits wandering in his borders. "But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, The base things of the world and the despised, God has chosen, the things that are not that He might nullify the things that are that no man may boast before God" (1 Corinthians 1:27-29). True humility is a mighty tool in the hand of a Good creator.- that is a biblical spin :-)

Besides.... Pippin is the one who notices that the eagles coming :D

wow.... that turned out to be pretty darn long....

[Count Comfect]

I have to say that I don't think that size or Ring resistance can have played much of a part: dwarves work just as well for either task (remember, the dwarf rings had no power over them save for a slight increase in greed) and can fight a lot better if that were to be needed.

[hectorberlioz]

yes, but Hobbits had an innocence that dwarves didnt, which would ultimately save them from becoming evil.
And you forget, Frodo was already becomning susceptible to the "dark side" from the beginning whne he recieved the ring. Now, I dont want to pick on Gimli or anything, but Dwarves are naturally very greedy people. And I'm sure Legolas picked up a bit of greediness from his father;) .

[Nurvingiel]

I think this thread needs a bump. This post in "Were the elves allies to Gondor" thread made me think of Merry and Pippin's importance in the Fellowship.

It was a proposal. He proposed to fill the reamining two positions of the the Fellowship (Merry and Pippins) to be filled by members of his own household.
Olmer responds:

Oh, yes, sorry, he CONSIDER this , but seems to me did not insist on it too much.
"It's a dangerous road. The evil Nine Riders will be agaist you. You will face a lot of perils.You can't replace the skillfull in fights, strong and wise Elves which will protect Frodo from the harm and made his quest successful. I forsee that the two bumbling hobbits will seriously undermine the whole idea of the quest's speed and secrecy... "
"But we want to go!"..
"O'key!" :D :evil:

Don't forget that Elrond was ultimately convinced to include Merry and Pippin because of their loyalty and friendship to Frodo. He felt that this would be stronger than including two elf-lords from his household, which is why I believe he said (paraphrase) "if I had a host of Elf-lords it would avail nothing." (I think that was Elrond. :o )
EDIT: Merry and Pippin weren't bumbling. Ignore the movies! Cast the questionably shaped carrots from your mind!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Elrond would have insisted on it had it been anyone other than Gandalf insisting against him. He knew Gandalf was a greater spirit than he an knew that if Gandalf saidd that that would be best, it would be best.

[Nurvingiel]

I think rather than being daunted by Gandalf, Elrond saw the wisdom in his words. (Unless that's what you meant. :) )

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yeah that is.

[Olmer]

Merry and Pippin weren't bumbling.
Cast the questionably shaped carrots from your mind!
Here is my carrot. ;)
Their blundering cost the life of two major personalities in the Fellowship: Gandalf and Boromir.
All their loyalty would not be counted if they wouldn't have other important qualities , such as being the Hobbits , and therefore being small and quick they have a better chance to penetrate Mordor unseen, then their unusually long resistance to the ring, and then comes their loyalty to Frodo, in this case they will be willing to take Frodo's burden if he woun't be able to continue.
Simply , it was just very calculated decision. :(

[inked]

Olmer,

If it was a calculated decision, on your evidence it was a bad calculation. :D

Hobbits in general represent the innocent enjoyment of goodness which they take for granted. Part of the reason for the inclusion of them in the FOTR is this quality. It did grant them a certain immunity to temptation by the Ring as witnessed by Frodo's long resistance and Sam's temptation to be SuperGardener! But behind the naivete is a solid appreciation for, understanding of, and committment to the world of Middle Earth as it was. This gave them qualities and abilities other than those of the wiser, older, and fairer races. I think they are foils to the Haradrim and other men seduced by Sauron and we are meant to hold this comparison in mind.

It was precisely this quality of commoner appreciation of the world that Tolkein saw in WWI during his service and which so impressed him. The inclusion of the Hobbits is an homage to the English workingman who likes his ale and pub and fun, but when put to it, will stick it out. I think the Letters has reference to this. Tolkein says that when the rubber meets the road people who understand macadam and tires are the people who really count!

Gandalf's recommendation for trusting to friendship is an ellipsis for this concept, IMHO. The calculation was that despite their adolescence in regard to the way the world was, their simplicity would confound the wise and Sauron. In this regard only was it calculated. The sum was not completed until the Shire was scoured.

[Nurvingiel]

Their blundering cost the life of two major personalities in the Fellowship: Gandalf and Boromir.
About Gandalf:
How did Merry or Pippin cause his death? I think the Balrog had something to do with it. ;) Further, he came back to life (or however you want to say it, not important in this thread), which could be credited for his defeat of Saruman because he was then Gandalf the White. This eliminated an extremely dangerous and cunning enemy from hampering the Quest. So not only was this not Merry or Pippin's fault, it also turned out for the better. (As a side note, I think that Gandalf sort of knew he had to face the Balrog. IIRC, it was Aragorn who was more opposed to going through Moria.)

Boromir died because he deliberately sought out Frodo. When the orcs attacked, he was closer to the Hobbits, and also alone. When Merry and Pippin were captured, he died defending him. But they would have lived even if he had not been there. Boromir placed himself in harms way because he was brave and noble, but also because of his earlier actions towards Frodo.

There is no Elf-Gandalf conspiracy or what have you to be found in Merry and Pippin's inclusion in the Fellowship. :)

[Pytt]

about gandalf I think he means that Pippin warned the orcs, and the balrog of their, the company's, presence in moria. maybe they had got out without any loses, hadn't pippin alarmed them.

[Nurvingiel]

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. I doubt they would have made it through Moria without being noticed, even with Gimli and Gandalf's knowledge and skill. The place was crawling with orcs, and the Balrog was already waking up/awake/stirring.

[Pytt]

i don't either think they would have got out unnoticed, but however small the chance is, it's there. and they would certainly have got nearer the exit, before noticed.

[Olmer]

About Gandalf:
How did Merry or Pippin cause his death?
Pippin's stone on the Balrog's head, figuratively speaking.
They had very good chances to pass Moria unnoiticed and unharmed, if Pippin wouldn't broadcast theirs presence .
I think that Gandalf sort of knew he had to face the Balrog. IIRC, it was Aragorn who was more opposed to going through Moria.
O, yes, he knew and nevertheless INSISTED on going into Moria tunnels.
No,Aragorn! Don't even try to talk me out of it! I'm already sick and tired of all this responsibilities which Valar hang on me .I have a death wish! :D Boromir died because he deliberately sought out Frodo. When the orcs attacked, he was closer to the Hobbits, and also alone.
Why exactly he happened to be closer to the Hobbits and alone?
Because they disobeyed Aragorn's order and run wildly into the woods. Aragorn asked Boromir to look after them.
If they would stay where they were ordered to stay the orcs attack would be easily deferred, because between 4 great warriors + 2 hobbits to overtake a hundred orcs would be a child play.

There is no Elf-Gandalf conspiracy :)
Let say it's no conspiracy, just politics and decisions made not out of whim , but out of thoroughly weighted up consideration of the nesessary matters for the success of such grandiose and life-or-death issue plan.
Which bring us to inked statement.
...their simplicity would confound the wise and Sauron. In this regard only was it calculated.
The calculation was made on the clear understanding that only small and quick hobbits, and not commandos with axes and bows, can filter in the heart of Mordor.
What do you think, who would become the Ringbearer if Frodo would been lost in Moria? It seems to me - Sam... King has died, but the show must go on! And exactly for this reason there are 3 spare hobbits in the group, instead of 3 pumped-up warriors. While at least one hobbit remains - the mission is alive.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Pippin's stone on the Balrog's head, figuratively speaking.
They had very good chances to pass Moria unnoiticed and unharmed, if Pippin wouldn't broadcast theirs presence .
I think that the battle would have alerted the Balrog of intruders to.

[Haradrim]

Im not saying I agree with Olmer but T.D. you couyld also iunfer form the stone being dropped that its noise and commotion alereted the oprcs to the prescence of intruders so Pippens stones alerted the orcs and raised the BAlrog. In my opinion that counts as bumbling however I do not agree that merry and Pippen caused Boromirs death. In fact on the quest as a whole the two hobbits were very important. The Ents, Merry and the Witch-King. They helped out in many ways. Stil onto why they were allowed to come. They were allowed to come because it was an open fellowship. It was up to the free peoples to decide what to do with the ring. Merry and Pippen decided to come along and help their friends. it was their right. They had every right to come along and they did. Also I think that Gandalf had another feeling about the hobbits and so did Elrond and even Aragorn to an extent. They just felt that they would be helpful if not necessary to the quest.

[Lenya]

I think that Elrond would rather have excluded them from the Fellowship, but he probably knew that they would follow Frodo in any case. Rather than having two amatuers trailing behind them, he allowed them to tag along.

[Forkbeard]

I think that Elrond would rather have excluded them from the Fellowship, but he probably knew that they would follow Frodo in any case. Rather than having two amatuers trailing behind them, he allowed them to tag along.

THis is answered in this week's discussion chapter. Merry and Pippin inform Elrond that they would have to be physically restrained not to follow. Gandalf points out that even sending someone like Glorfindel wouldn't help the Ringbearer much, and that trusting to love and friendship is as good a trust as any.

[Lenya]

Oh. I haven't been to that thread.

[Manveru]

I find that Gandalf's insisting the hobbits go with the Fellowship is very similar to Gandalf insisting to Thorin that Bilbo has to go with them. Especially if you have read UT, in the Quest of Erebor chapter Gandalf said he had a foresight that Bilbo would be needed to fufill the quest. At the end of Return of the King Gandalf hints that he may have had a foresight that Merry and Pippin would save lives in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. Merry saves Eowyn and helps to kill the Witch King and Pippin saves Faramir. in 'the Quest of Erebor' Gandalf argues with Thorin and has with a ferocity that even he can't explain "I knew in my heart that Bilbo must go with him, or the whole quest would be a failure- or, as I should say now, the far more important events by the way would not have come to pass." And this isn't the last time this sort of thing happens to him. He argues with Elrond later who isn't as hot-headed as Thorin so they don't get into an actual argument but he probably realizes that Gandalf is having some sort of foresight, or perhaps he is having a foresight too. But he probably knows to trust Gandalf, knowing what he is and what he was sent to Middle-Earth to accomplish.

[Olmer]

I find that Gandalf's insisting the hobbits go with the Fellowship is very similar to Gandalf insisting to Thorin that Bilbo has to go with them.
....Gandalf said he had a foresight that Bilbo would be needed to fufill the quest.
Bilbo was used, as many gullible hobbits before him, to serve Gandalf's agendas. He was needed for the seach of the Ring.
Thorin was right, if Bilbo by sheer chance wouldn't found the Ring , his presence would be not only useless, but even dangerous to the group.
You can tell anything to persuade pragmatic Thorin to accept your way from a declaration of the "foresight" to an unveiled threatening, but it doesn't change the fact that, aside of the wielding of the ring, personal abilities of Bilbo were contributing nothing to the Quest.
Elrond later who isn't as hot-headed as Thorin so they don't get into an actual argument but he probably realizes that Gandalf is having some sort of foresight, or perhaps he is having a foresight too.
The same thing with Merry and Pippin, they were intended to be used as "spare hobbits" to replace Frodo and Sam if the need arise.
In this case I agree with Lenya that rather than let two "bumblers" to compromise the secrecy of the mission they were allowed to stay with the Fellowship.
Gandalf points out that even sending someone like Glorfindel wouldn't help the Ringbearer much, and that trusting to love and friendship is as good a trust as any.
And why, may I ask you, he points out that the love and friendship between ingenious hobbits was more important in the quest success, than the help of experienced, valiant and wise Glorfindel?
Because Glorfindel, indeed , can't do the task which was heaved by Frodo -the hobbit. As Elrond profoundly declared:"It is fate that the HOBBITS should rid the world of it".. (HME,"The Retutn of the Shadow")
And the love and friendship is a sure thing that by sharing the burden of Frodo's quest they will carry it out to the end.

[ItalianLegolas]

because without them, isengard might have never been destroyed, which would have been almost certain death at the Pelennor fields

[Jon S.]

Amazing that this thread is still going at this late date.

For me, in the end, it comes down to this: The world is a mirror.

Yes, it's possible to view Gandalf as a cunning manipulator and the hobbits as his expendable baggage.

It's also possible to see Gandalf as an immortal demigod who selflessly assumed the pains and aches of mortal flesh to teach, lead, and save, someone to whom friendship is a high value indeed worthy of faith and trust.

I just can't help myself - I see Gandalf as the latter.

[Edited to soften the point.]

[Olmer]

Gandalf as an immortal demigod who selflessly assumed the pains and aches of mortal flesh to teach, lead, and save, someone to whom friendship is a high value indeed worthy of faith and trust.
Yes, he is Demiurg of unique-class: the creator of realities, but nothing like some kind of stylized Santa.
He is not human - a spirit in human form, sent by the High order, and therefore his idea about ME dwellers expendability is quite in tune with those who sent him:to serve the "common goods" as THEY understand them. Gandalf is brilliant, shrewd and scary person, because all human's feelings are alien to him, he can fegn love and affection to manipulate person, but in reality he has none.
Absolutely all his actions were deliberate and had a double bottom, but when time comes to lay down on sacrificion table his own life in the name of the quest, he does it like a true soldier (or android), without hesitation, just the same way as he sends on sure death, without any remorse and wavering, people who love and trust in him.
...who selflessly assumed the pains and aches of mortal flesh to teach, lead, and save, someone
Could you bring a couple of examples of his "selflessness"? Aside from Moria's incident. :)

[Gordis]

I find that Gandalf's insisting the hobbits go with the Fellowship is very similar to Gandalf insisting to Thorin that Bilbo has to go with them. Especially if you have read UT, in the Quest of Erebor chapter Gandalf said he had a foresight that Bilbo would be needed to fufill the quest. At the end of Return of the King Gandalf hints that he may have had a foresight that Merry and Pippin would save lives in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. Merry saves Eowyn and helps to kill the Witch King and Pippin saves Faramir. in 'the Quest of Erebor' Gandalf argues with Thorin and has with a ferocity that even he can't explain "I knew in my heart that Bilbo must go with him, or the whole quest would be a failure- or, as I should say now, the far more important events by the way would not have come to pass." And this isn't the last time this sort of thing happens to him. He argues with Elrond later who isn't as hot-headed as Thorin so they don't get into an actual argument but he probably realizes that Gandalf is having some sort of foresight, or perhaps he is having a foresight too. But he probably knows to trust Gandalf, knowing what he is and what he was sent to Middle-Earth to accomplish.
I agree with Manveru.

I think the hobbits were taken on the Quest neither because of their friendship with Frodo, nor because they insisted on going. Here Olmer is right. Sentimental reasons were not part of the decision.

It was simply practical. And I believe, Gandalf's did have foresight about their future role in the quest, at least a strong feeling that they were needed. He foresaw that Gollum was vital to the quest, and some of Gandalf's words make us think that he knew what for and when he will be needed. In Mordor and at Orodruin. So why couldn't he have similar foresight about Merry and Pippin?

No, he didn't take them as two spare ring-bearers. He knew they had another role. Without the two fools, Isengard would not be destroyed. Without Merry the Pellennor battle would have been lost! I think Gandalf foresaw that.

And note, Elrond had similar foresight that they were needed in the Shire. And he was right! But Gandalf had more power and foresaw more. He knew of their future importance in the quest.

[Earniel]

The Numenor-discussion is split off and moved into a single thread: The drowning of Numenor (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?p=525287#post525287).

This thread is to discuss the reasons for having Merry and Pippin in the Fellowship.

[Earniel]

The side discussion about the Valar, Maiar and Men has been split of and moved here (http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?t=12961) where it is better suited. And now I like everyone here to stay on topic.

[Spock]

I like to think they were included for comic relief.

With Frodo all noble and burdened down and the elves, wizards, etc. all heavily invested with morality and good and evil, these two were just "every Hobbit" and showed the faults and peccadellos of everyone.

[Star]

I think, If Merry hadn't been there, Eowyn wouldn't have defeated the witchking of Angmar, and Pip, believe it or not, actually helped in the mines of moria. Think about it, if gandalf hadn't fell, He wouldn't have become Gandalf the white, and Pip also signaled Rohan by lighting the beacons when denethor refused. And I have to agree that because of them the ents went to war against Isengard, and Rohan survived. What would have happened if there was no Gandalf the White? Gandalf the gray lost against Saruman the first time, but as Gandalf the White, he beat him the second time in Rohan.

[Curubethion]

Foresight is definitely my pick for the reason. Foresight, and providence. Merry and Pippin were meant to be in the Fellowship, as was seen by later events.

[Valandil]

... and Pip also signaled Rohan by lighting the beacons when denethor refused...

Sorry... not in the books! :p

[Noble Elf Lord]

Foresight is definitely my pick for the reason. Foresight, and providence. Merry and Pippin were meant to be in the Fellowship, as was seen by later events.

Foresight, all right... but remember they don´t come like TV - shows, whenever you want. I think some of the arguments are based too much on the way of telling the story and what happened, not what could have happened after the Council of Elrond. And as for Gandalf being an inhumane robot, hardly. Did´nt Tolkien write somewhere that as Olorin, he was taught compassion by one of the Valar? And, as for the common good of the Ainur, did they ever force the Elves to do anything? No, they allowed some to stay in Middle-Earth, though they knew it wouldn´t be as good as if they had come to Valinor. They allowed Fëanor to leave the Undying lands, yet they knew that it would bring much sorrow.
Also, it would have been easier and swifter if the Valar had stormed Barad-Dùr, molten the Ring, and with justice swooped around telling everyone it was them who bothered to come down to ME, and thus earning the worship of all the Free Peoples. It would have been better publicity for them, but no, they agreed the folks to do it themselves. And too much worship results to too many prayers.... The Free Peoples had to "grow up." :D

[Olmer]

Foresight, all right... I think some of the arguments are based too much on the way of telling the story and what happened, not what could have happened after the Council of Elrond.
That's right. It had happened whatever happened IN SPITE of the best layed out plans of Gandalf and Elrond.
Gandalf can foresee nothing, his argument on an inclusion of Merry and Pippin was a tight friendship between hobbits. In it he was putting his hopes for success(I already said about the real reason).
Nevertheless in whole escapades of the hobbits their friendship played a little part in Frodo's quest, since they became separated and each went on his own way. If it's not for Gandalf's return (which he did not forsee either) Pippin would end as a helpless catatonic, and Merry would be Theoden's chore boy at best.
Did´nt Tolkien write somewhere that as Olorin, he was taught compassion by one of the Valar?
Could you provide a quote where it says about Valar's compassion towards dwellers of Middle Earth? :) As far as it known, they were too busy to make their own life comfortable .
And, as for the common good of the Ainur, did they ever force the Elves to do anything? No, they allowed some to stay in Middle-Earth, though they knew it wouldn´t be as good as if they had come to Valinor. They allowed Fëanor to leave the Undying lands, yet they knew that it would bring much sorrow.
It was their birthright to stay in Arda, for goodness sake!They need not to BE ALLOWED to stay. Eru created Arda for Eruhini, not for Valar.
And who said that in Valinor it would be better than in Middle Earth? Valar themselves? Why they have to drag elves out of their home? Because they did not have enough of servants over there?
Seems many of Moriquendi have asked the same question and refused the invitation to the gilded cage.


Also, it would have been easier and swifter if the Valar had stormed Barad-Dùr, molten the Ring, and with justice swooped around telling everyone it was them who bothered to come down to ME, and thus earning the worship of all the Free Peoples. It would have been better publicity for them,:D
Oh, they have had enough of publicity, all right. :cool: Every time when they are venturing to help people it's ending up in such major upheaval, that it would be remembered for many thousands years. :)

[Noble Elf Lord]

Could you provide a quote where it says about Valar's compassion towards dwellers of Middle Earth? :) As far as it known, they were too busy to make their own life comfortable .

Eärendil? Does that ring a bell? :)

It was their birthright to stay in Arda, for goodness sake!They need not to BE ALLOWED to stay. Eru created Arda for Eruhini, not for Valar.
And who said that in Valinor it would be better than in Middle Earth? Valar themselves? Why they have to drag elves out of their home? Because they did not have enough of servants over there?
Seems many of Moriquendi have asked the same question and refused the invitation to the gilded cage.

All right, allowed to stay was a bit hasty, I meant that there wasn´t an actual sanction. :o Why the Elves have to leave Middle-Earth? Morgoth might have had something to do with it.... Mayhaps... :D :) :rolleyes: Servants? I thought that the services to the Valar may be done anywhere. And what for they should have had servants? Sing a couple notes, and you´ll have a glorius feast in front of you.



Oh, they have had enough of publicity, all right. :cool: Every time when they are venturing to help people it's ending up in such major upheaval, that it would be remembered for many thousands years. :)

Unfortunately, it wasn´t so well remembered. :(

[Jon S.]

As someone who's constantly Monday morning quarterbacks NFL coaching decisions, I realize I'm a bit hypocritical now saying here that there sure is an awful lot of Monday morning quarterbacking going on here regarding Gandalf and Elrond's selection of Merry and Pippin for "the team." Sure, certain negative consequences resulted from the choice. There were also quite positive consequences and none of us knows how worse the outcomes might have been had anyone else been chosen in their stead.

[CAB]

It seems to me that the last four positions on the Fellowship were really just "filler". Gandalf, Aragorn, and Frodo were chosen for obvious reasons. Sam was picked because of his loyalty to Frodo and Boromir was probably asked to stay in Rivendell and leave with the rest of the Fellowship to keep news of Aragorn and the Ring from reaching Gondor too soon (though surely this wasn't the reason told to Boromir).

As for the rest, Legolas and Gimli originally only agreed to stay with Frodo to the crossing of the mountains, so their addition doesn't seem particularly important. And Elrond's decision to include Merry and Pippin really seems like a "well,... ok,... whatever" type thing, doesn't it? There were two open spots remaining (always seemed a bit overly coincidental), they wanted to go, Gandalf spoke up for them, and off they went.

[Gordis]

Hello, CAB - great you are back! You have been missed. :)

Yes it looks like the extra hobbits were mostly "filler".
But on the other hand, Elrond couldn't really send someone of power - Glorfindel for instance. Nazgul could have overlooked three hobbits in the Emin Muil and Dead Marches and in the Morgul Vale, but no way they would have overlooked the shiny Glorfy.

As for Legolas and Gimli, I have a suspicion that they were included because Thranduil and Dain respectively have requested it.

Thranduil must have suspected that something very important was going on. Aragorn brought Gollum to Mirkwood, Gandalf questioned (and tortured :evil: ) him there, then the ranger and the wizard left, seeming much preoccupied, and asked Thranduil to guard the prisoner. I think the Mirkwood King grew suspicious of all these goings on and resented being kept in the dark. So he sent his own son to investigate and take part in what was about to happen.
As for Dain, it was Sauron himself who warned him that a "little ringy" was wanted. I bet Dain felt that the Elves were concoting something again so he sent his trusted advisor Gloin to Rivendell.

[CAB]

Hello Gordis, and thank you. :)

You gave some good reasons for the inclusion of Legolas and Gimli in the Fellowship. I hadn't considered the political angle with them. I think you're right.

Staying with the political theme may also help explain why there was room for Merry and Pippin on the Fellowship. Why were none of Elrond's people chosen for this journey? As you stated the shiny, resurrected Glorfindel couldn't go, but surely someone else from Rivendell could. Noldorian Elves had been sneaking around Middle Earth quite well for thousands of years. Maybe Elrond could have volunteered "so and so" who was one of his best scouts and was very familiar with the lands south of Rivendell or "such and such" who was often a guest of the Moria Dwarves in years past (since Gandalf said he had considered going through Moria before the quest ever started and probably shared this thought with Elrond).

The answer may be political. As the Fellowship turned out there was no question that Gandalf was the leader and Aragorn was next in line. But what if a high status Noldorian Elf had been a member? Would this have caused a power struggle in Gandalf's absence? It is quite possible, I think. And if Aragorn had ended up following this person to Minas Tirith his claiming of Gondor's crown would certainly have proven much more difficult.

[Gordis]

Very good points, CAB, indeed.

Moreover, some Noldorin Elves - if not most of them - didn't really wish to help actively or to risk going to Mandos poste-haste. Gildor Inglorion is a good example :evil: .
Then again, few of the Noldor were not also Calaquendi Elves, so in the Spirit-world they would be as shiny as Glorfindel. As for the Sindar, maybe Elrond didn't consider them much trustworthy when dealing with the One. And in the actual fellowship the Elf was balanced by the Dwarf (who could have thought they would become fast friends?).

[The Gaffer]

Here's my two cents.

Don't forget that LOTR is about Hobbits. Specifically, it is about hobbits "growing up" and taking their place in the world:

The halfling forth shall stand

and all that.

Now, Frodo and Sam, both ring-bearers, end up taking ship and leaving Middle-Earth. So it's not them who "grow up", Sam and Rosie going at it like rabbits notwithstanding; they make the ultimate sacrifice to save the Shire.

It is Merry and Pippin who provide the leadership necessary to kick Sharkey out of the Shire. Remember Gandalf's parting words:

It's what you've been trained for

Merry and Pippin rouse the hobbits, plan the battle and lead them to victory. This would not have been possible without their inclusion in the Fellowship.

[Star]

??????????? Sam never left on the ship to leave middle earth. He stays behind remember? I don't remember exactly what frodo said but it went something like this "Even though you bore the ring, even if for a little while... My dear sam, you can not always be torn in two, you must be one and whole..." I've read The Hobbit, FOTR, TTT, ROTK, and seen all three movies. In the book and the movie, Sam returns home to Rosie after watching the ship dissapear that bore frodo.

[Gordis]

It is in LOTR Appendices.

LATER EVENTS CONCERNING
THE MEMBERS OF THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING

1482 - Death of Mistress Rose, wife of Master Samwise, on Mid-year's Day. On September 22 Master Samwise rides out from Bag End. He comes to the Tower Hills, and is last seen by Elanor, to whom he gives the Red Book afterwards kept by the Fairbairns. Among them the tradition is handed down from Elanor that Samwise passed the Towers, and went to the Grey Havens, and passed over Sea, last of the Ring-bearers.

[Olmer]

It was just a wishfull thinking. :) Nowhere said that he boarded the ship, if it were any ships left.
Even Frodo was permitted to sail on the ship because Arwen gave him a great gift: her ticket to ride (I guess it was a real deal:two hobbits counts as one elf, so Bilbo has got his seat too). :rolleyes:
But who would give Sam the right to take a place instead an elf?
Who would remember him there to say that he allowed to go to the Blessed Realm? :confused:
Yes, Star, I agree, Sam has never left the Middle Earth.
Even if he said, or hinted to Elanor about his destination, he didn't go farther than the Grey Havens, and, as I suspect, spent his last days among the elves, of whom he used to be so fond.

[Butterbeer]

Hah!

Well, sure ... and in one sense i am with you.

But, to my mind, the implication was that he did take ship and go to the utmost West.

The fourth age was, later, to be, after all the age of EasyJet and the idea of two for one or even three for one deals, seems quite possible ;)

Best, BB

[The Gaffer]

And who said that the Blessed Realm had a fixed number of places?

IMO, wearing the Ring, at all, ever, gets you an upgrade.

[Olmer]

And who said that the Blessed Realm had a fixed number of places?
Tolkien. By saying that Arwen gave her sit as a great gift. The ships were not made of rubber, you know, and the builders were depleting. :)

[Gordis]

I wonder: was the passage free? ;)

[BeardofPants]

Do you think they had to buy 10-trip tickets?? *snork*

[The Gaffer]

There was certainly at least a two-for-one offer going.

And Gimli blagged his way on board by having the hots for Galadriel.

But anyway - Merry and Pippin...

[Olmer]

I wonder: was the passage free? ;)
I don't think so. Consider time, labor and material needed to build just one ship. The financial cost of such endeavor must be staggering, since none of the ships ever allowed to come back, and less and less elves, who knew how to build the ships, have remained in Havens.
So, somehow they have to have a reconstitution of their depleting funds, and the answer is - a fee for a voyage to the Paradise Island (and I did not mean Bahamas. :D )

As for Merry and Pippin, their place as Frodo's companions to the Mount Doom was anticipated from the beginning, when Gandalf insistently advised Frodo to take companions.
I think, from the beginning Gandalf's plan was to send just the hobbits on the Ring's destruction quest. But unexpectedly and uninvited the representatives from other races have turned up in Imladris. The issue of the Ruling Ring came out into the open, so Elrond and Gandalf were compelled to include the observers from the allies. Seems, you, Gordis, were quite on a target about this. :)

So, my point is: if Merry and Pippin would follow the partaking, designated for them by Gandalf, it wouldn't be too much of the leadership upon their arrival back home. But, as I said, it have happened against the best plans concotted by Gandalf. :)

[Gordis]

Ha, I know now why Elves lingered in ME for so long - they simply couldn't raise money for the ticket! :D

[Olmer]

Ha, I know now why Elves lingered in ME for so long - they simply couldn't raise money for the ticket! :D
Or simply the train was gone. :)

[mithrand1r]

Or simply the train was gone. :)
The elves should have headed the words of Davey the elf: "Take the last train to Clarksville. . .
;)

Gordis,
That may explain the desire (or need) for mithril. Its value should be enough for at least 2 tickets in thrid class baggage. ;)

Regarding Merry and Pippin,

It was said that someone of intelligence was needed for the journey. What better way to demonstrate this intelligence (making it stick out in the crowd) than by pairing it with others of less intelligence.
;)

On a more serious note, sometimes it does not matter what skills we have at the beginning. It sometimes is more important to have an intrinsic motivation for working towards a goal.

Merry and Pippin would do what they could for their friendship of Sam and Frodo. They might dare where one with more common sense might be more restrained or cautious. They have a inner motivation to do what they could to help Frodo and Sam that will not waiver when times are rough. (Not saying that the others would desert the quest, but each member of the fellowship has their own motivation for being part of the fellowship.)

This might be part of the reasoning behind Gandalf's words about including them into the fellowship.

[Gordis]

'Tis simple: Bilbo&Frodo sold their mithril shirt - thus they bought 3 class tickets to Paradise Island. Pip and Merry were not so fortunate. I guess Sam never made it to Valinor. :)

[Star]

okay someone said that pip didn't light the beacons of gondor in the books, but its a movie wise point.

[Star]

It is in LOTR Appendices.

oh....i skipped that part. it was a libary book that had to be returned the next day. only enough time to read a little.

[Jon S.]

Had someone else other than Merry and Pippin been chosen, we'd still be here debating the same exact issue, the only difference being the thread title would have their names in it instead of the Hobbits. ;)

[Olmer]

Had someone else other than Merry and Pippin been chosen, we'd still be here debating the same exact issue, the only difference being the thread title would have their names in it instead of the Hobbits. ;)
Exactly! And we would look for a logical explanation of such choosing, as we are doing now. :)
The only problem is: in Merry & Pippin case it's no logic, just words of Gandalf about theirs strong friendship ties. Maybe for perplexed Frodo it sounded as a good motivation, but for an outsider it doesn't sound convincing enough. Should be some other agenda behind this decision.
The answer came from Bilbo:�Dear me! Not the Gandalf who was responsible for so many quiet lads and lasses going off into the Blue for mad adventures.�(“The Hobbit�, chapter I)
So it was not for the first time he was using hobbits. Why hobbits? Because not like man, elves of dwarwes, they were gullible, thus susceptible to any influence for “modification�. They will do as been told, and between 3 of them will finish what Frodo wouldn't able to do himself.

[Jon S.]

Well then, let's consider some more quotes that may lend some understanding to the equation:

Gildor (Three is Company) “If you demand advice, I will for friendship’s sake give it... take such friends as are trusty and willing�

Merry (A Conspiracy Unmasked) “You can trust us to stick to you, through thick and thin – to the bitter end. And you can trust us to keep any secret of yours – closer than you keep it yourself. But you cannot trust us to let you face trouble alone, and go off without a word. We are your friends, Frodo.�

(Flight to the Ford) “[Frodo] saw his friends’ faces more clearly again, and a measure of new strength and hope returned.�

Theoden witnessing the reunion of the three hunters with Merry and Pippin (The Road to Isengard): “It cannot be doubted that we witness the meeting of dear friends... The days are fated to be filled with marvels.�

Treebeard referring to Merry & Pippin (The Voice of Saruman): “I shall miss them. We have become friends in so short a while that I think I must be getting hasty. They shall remain friends as long as leaves are renewed.�

Aragorn (The Steward & The King): “A day draws near that I have looked for in all the years of my manhood, and when it comes I would have my friends beside me.�

Gandalf to the Hobbits (Homeward Bound): “As for you my dear friends you will need no help. You are grown up now. Grown indeed very high; among the great you are, and I have no longer any fear at all for any of you.�

And last but not least ...

Elrond to the Fellowship: "The road must be trod, but it will be very hard. And neither strength nor wisdom will carry us far upon it. This quest may be attempted by the weak with as much hope as the strong. Yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere."

[Noble Elf Lord]

Ha, I know now why Elves lingered in ME for so long - they simply couldn't raise money for the ticket! :D

Please don´t joke, it´s a sad matter... :(

[Jon S.]

Exactly and laughter is the best medicine. :)

[Noble Elf Lord]

When I grief, I do it properly - the Garfield way, not even trying to feel better, until I actually forget to grief.

[Coffeehouse]

Well then, let's consider some more quotes that may lend some understanding to the equation:

Gildor (Three is Company) “If you demand advice, I will for friendship’s sake give it... take such friends as are trusty and willing�

Merry (A Conspiracy Unmasked) “You can trust us to stick to you, through thick and thin – to the bitter end. And you can trust us to keep any secret of yours – closer than you keep it yourself. But you cannot trust us to let you face trouble alone, and go off without a word. We are your friends, Frodo.�

(Flight to the Ford) “[Frodo] saw his friends’ faces more clearly again, and a measure of new strength and hope returned.�

Theoden witnessing the reunion of the three hunters with Merry and Pippin (The Road to Isengard): “It cannot be doubted that we witness the meeting of dear friends... The days are fated to be filled with marvels.�

Treebeard referring to Merry & Pippin (The Voice of Saruman): “I shall miss them. We have become friends in so short a while that I think I must be getting hasty. They shall remain friends as long as leaves are renewed.�

Aragorn (The Steward & The King): “A day draws near that I have looked for in all the years of my manhood, and when it comes I would have my friends beside me.�

Gandalf to the Hobbits (Homeward Bound): “As for you my dear friends you will need no help. You are grown up now. Grown indeed very high; among the great you are, and I have no longer any fear at all for any of you.�

And last but not least ...

Elrond to the Fellowship: "The road must be trod, but it will be very hard. And neither strength nor wisdom will carry us far upon it. This quest may be attempted by the weak with as much hope as the strong. Yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere."

I think these quotes actually are spot on as to the reason behind Merry and Pippin joining the Fellowship. For all purposes of mere efficiency, speed and stealth Frodo would only have needed to travel with 1 to 2-3 other companions on his mission (Gandalf and Aragorn?). The fact that it was decided to have a much larger Fellowship is partly due to the politics between the races present at the Rivendell meeting, but also as a psychological aid to Frodo. This sort of dangerous, arduous and long-lasting mission can be compared to the polar expeditions made to the North and South poles. In the case of Roald Amundsen to the South Pole, and Fridtjof Nansens attempt to reach the North Pole, it was done with people they felt close to as friends, not only as co-professionals.. I think therefore that bringing Merry and Pippin along was done not only in foresight by Gandalf (in seeing future potential, much like Bilbo's thievish qualities in The Hobbit), but in the knowledge that friendship could play an important part in such a discouraging journey to Mount Doom. This is one the major themes in Tolkien's LOTR, the importance of friendship.

[EllethValatari]

So, apart from giving the story more hobbit material, why were Merry and Pippin apart of the fellowship?
Who would every ask such a question? Think about it: Merry and Pippin are the people who add something besides drama to the story! Whenever you're reading and you just have this inner craving for a little simple-minded stupidity, Merry and Pippin are there to help!

[Earniel]

Simple-minded stupidity? Is that all you see when reading about Merry's and Pippin's presence in the Fellowship? I hope not. The film, maybe, but certainly not the book.

[Bombadillo]

They're there to show that every person, no matter how small or insignificant, still has it in him to foster lots of growth and self-betterment.

Character development is rampant in LotR. In the beginning sure they're bumbling idiots, but they're soldiers by the end aren't they? More mature, independent, wise, headstrong, quick on their feet, hearty, literally taller... Pippin's not the type to go accidentally knocking stones into old wells anymore to make a long story short. Tolkien knew what's up. Their growth was more subtle than say, Frodo's or Theoden's, but they're not to be overlooked.

I mean, that's aside from the 9 vs 9 theory, which is okay too, if you really think Elrond and company expected a hobbit to go toe to toe with a witch-king and win. :)

They are so dearly simple, aren't they? Kids love' em!

[Attalus]

Not to speak of Merry's setting the Witch-King up for Eowyn to spit. "No other blade, though it be weilded by mightier hands..." and all that. And Pippin saved the Palantir, and Faramir, too. We do not know whether the Plantir's fall was marked by anyone else. Gandalf hints that he did, but it is not stated so.

[barrelrider110]

Character development is rampant in LotR. In the beginning sure they're bumbling idiots, but they're soldiers by the end aren't they? More mature, independent, wise, headstrong, quick on their feet, hearty, literally taller... Pippin's not the type to go accidentally knocking stones into old wells anymore to make a long story short. Tolkien knew what's up. Their growth was more subtle than say, Frodo's or Theoden's, but they're not to be overlooked.

I mean, that's aside from the 9 vs 9 theory, which is okay too, if you really think Elrond and company expected a hobbit to go toe to toe with a witch-king and win. :)

They are so dearly simple, aren't they? Kids love' em!

They weren't bumbling idiots, even in the beginning. They were shrewd, loyal and brave. They deduced that Frodo intended to leave the Shire because of the ring. And they decided to accompany him, to leave home, knowing their lives would be at risk. Gandalf knew and argued for an out-of-the-box solution as the only way to defeat Sauron. Gandalf above all at the council of Elrond knew the virtues of the hobbits. And he knew the value of friendship and loyalty; Gildor hints at the same wisdom even before the coucil of Elrond-- the advice he begrudgingly gives Frodo -- "take with you those that are trusty and willing" or something like that.

[barrelrider110]

Character development is rampant in LotR. In the beginning sure they're bumbling idiots, but they're soldiers by the end aren't they? More mature, independent, wise, headstrong, quick on their feet, hearty, literally taller... Pippin's not the type to go accidentally knocking stones into old wells anymore to make a long story short. Tolkien knew what's up. Their growth was more subtle than say, Frodo's or Theoden's, but they're not to be overlooked.

I mean, that's aside from the 9 vs 9 theory, which is okay too, if you really think Elrond and company expected a hobbit to go toe to toe with a witch-king and win. :)

They are so dearly simple, aren't they? Kids love' em!

They weren't bumbling idiots, even in the beginning. They were shrewd, loyal and brave. They deduced that Frodo intended to leave the Shire because of the ring. And they decided to accompany him, to leave home, knowing their lives would be at risk. Gandalf knew and argued for an out-of-the-box solution as the only way to defeat Sauron. Gandalf above all at the council of Elrond knew the virtues of the hobbits. And he knew the value of friendship and loyalty; Gildor hints at the same wisdom even before the coucil of Elrond-- the advice he begrudgingly gives Frodo -- "take with you those that are trusty and willing" or something like that.

[Deagol]

I don't have the text in front of me but when I think of hobbits the first thing I remember is Gandalf saying "There is more about them than it would appear" (or something like that). Bilbo was able to actually give the ring away -- a thing no creature of any kind had ever been able to do -- and let us not forget that, ultimately, Frodo failed at the crucial moment. I like what a previous poster said about having spare hobbits along "just in case." It sounds a little Machiavellian, but it's worth noting that the council was well aware that the fellowship wasn't going storm the the Mountain of Fire with raised swords and a war cry.

[Alcuin]

I’ve been re-reading parts of Lord of the Rings, not in any particular order. There are several points at which Merry and Pippin make a tremendous difference in the storyline.

The Redemption of Boromir. I don’t agree with Olmer (http://www.entmoot.com/showpost.php?p=393350&postcount=26) that the two hobbits were responsible for Boromir’s death. I do agree with Nurvingiel (http://www.entmoot.com/showpost.php?p=393601&postcount=28) that Boromir was responsible for his own death. His attempt to seize the Ring from Frodo dispersed the Company of the Ring; it was Aragorn who commanded him (as Númenórean king?) to follow and protect Merry and Pippin; and Boromir confessed to Aragorn before he died his actions and revealed that Merry and Pippin were alive. Gandalf remarked that, “It was not in vain that the young hobbits came with us, if only for Boromir's sake.” (TT, “The White Rider”) In other words, Boromir’s redemption from self-aggrandizement, due to his falling to the temptation of the Ring, was bound up in sacrificing himself to protect those weaker than himself.

Arousing the Ents and saving Rohan. Saruman and Sauron were allies in close communication. They may have been unreliable allies who sought to betray and overcome one another, but they were allies. (Perhaps much like Hitler and Stalin in 1939-1940; but of course, there is no allegory in Tolkien’s work.) The seizure of Merry and Pippin and their journey to Isengard broke that alliance: Saruman betrayed Sauron, found no ring, and had no way to explain what had done after Wormtongue disposed of the palantÃ*r. More importantly, it put Merry and Pippin right on Treebeard’s doorstep. After explaining how Merry and Pippin were instrumental in the redemption of Boromir, Gandalf observed that (ibid.) The coming of the hobbits and the tidings that they brought have spilled [Treebeard's wrath]: it will soon be running like a flood; but its tide is turned against Saruman and the axes of Isengard. A thing is about to happen which has not happened since the Elder Days: the Ents are going to wake up and find that they are strong.
Moreover, according to Gandalf in this same dialogue, Saruman’s assault on Rohan was predicated on his fear that Théoden “should come by [the Ring] and learn of its power”, so instead of a coordinated attack by both Sauron and Saruman upon Gondor and Rohan, the attacks fell upon them piecemeal, so that first the weaker could be defeated and then the stronger. Without Merry and Pippin, Saruman would have remained in alliance with Sauron, the Ents would not have gone to war, and Rohan would have been overrun. If that is not enough, Théoden, aroused from his torpor by Gandalf, kept his vows of alliance with Gondor, and in his train were Éowyn and Merry – who together slew the Witch-king! Finally, almost as an afterthought, the battles in Rohan cemented a friendship between Éomer and Aragorn, and Gimli settled in Helm’s Deep (Aglarond) after the war ended. (NB: ItalianLegolas (http://www.entmoot.com/showpost.php?p=445342&postcount=40) made this point earlier in the thread with far less verbiage.)

Distracting Sauron and saving Gondor. Sauron knew Saruman had taken two hobbits. He did not know what had become of them, though he thought he knew when he saw Pippin in the palantÃ*r stolen from Gandalf. That focused his attention toward Isengard and away from his own land. Imagine his dismay finding the Heir of Isildur with the Sword of Elendil gazing back at him when Sauron stared into his palantÃ*r! Then Aragorn wrenched control of the Orthanc Stone and found the Umbar fleet approaching Lebennin. His decisive move through the Paths of the Dead overturned Sauron’s plans, saved Pelargir and Lebennin, and saved Minas Tirith! Then it enabled the Aragorn and Gandalf to keep Sauron’s mind firmly affixed on them and away from his real danger: Frodo and Sam.

Saving Faramir. Without Pippin, Denethor would have murdered Faramir in his madness. Faramir’s survival meant a clean transition of power from the Stewards to the restored High Kings.

Killing the Witch-king. Éowyn daughter of Éomund was “no man,” but without Merry’s stabbing the Witch-king with the barrow-blade, I don’t think she’d have killed him: he’d have killed her.

As for the last two items, as he carried the ailing Merry to the Houses of Healing, Gandalf said to Pippin, “if Elrond had not yielded to me, neither of you would have set out; and then far more grievous would the evils of this day have been.” (RotK, “The Houses of Healing”)

Not a bad set of accomplishments for two fellows whom Elrond feared “do not understand and cannot imagine what lies ahead,” but demanded to go along or be sent “home tied in a sack.” (FotR, “The Ring Goes South”) As barrelrider110 (http://www.entmoot.com/showpost.php?p=650940&postcount=87) states, Merry and Pippin “were shrewd, loyal and brave.” Were they foolish? No doubt: but as Beruthiel's cat (http://www.entmoot.com/showpost.php?p=350302&postcount=4) observes, we see nearly everything through the eyes of the hobbits, and so they serve as proxies for us, as Everyman in the narrative.

-|-

There is a great deal of discussion in this thread about planning and scheming and dark hints that Gandalf and the Eldar were involved in some nefarious plot to use Hobbits to overthrow Sauron. Piffle! say I; however, what guided Gandalf in particular, and to lesser extents the Eldar, Aragorn, Frodo, and Sam is not so easily dismissed. There is not a conspiracy, but Tolkien makes clear at many junctures that there is another Will, a guiding force that seeks for Good in Middle-earth. Gordis (http://www.entmoot.com/showpost.php?p=525107&postcount=43) has already pointed this out. But for clarity, in the Appendix of “The Hunt for the Ring” in Unfinished Tales, we find this dialogue:

…[Gimli said]: “…Did you plan all this then, Gandalf? If not, why did you lead Thorin … to such an unlikely door? To find the Ring and bring it far away into the West for hiding, and then to choose the Ringbearer – and to restore the Mountain Kingdom as a mere deed by the way: was not that your design?”

Gandalf did not answer at once. He stood up, and looked out of the window, west, seawards; … He stood so a long while silent. But at last he turned to Gimli and said: “I do not know the answer. … In that far distant time I said to a small and frightened Hobbit: Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not its maker, and you therefore were meant to bear it. And I might have added: and I was meant guide you both to those points.

“To do that I used in my waking mind only such means as were allowed to me, doing what lay to my hand according to such reasons as I had. But what I knew in my heart, or knew before I stepped on these grey shores: that is another matter. Olórin I was in the West that is forgotten, and only to those who are there shall I speak openly.”


-|-

A final thought concerning Arwen and Frodo and his passage into the West. In a footnote to Letter 246, Tolkien writes,

[Arwen] could not … just transfer her ticket on the boat [to Frodo]…! For any except those of Elvish race ‘sailing West’ was not permitted, and any exception required ‘authority’, and she was not in direct communication with the Valar, especially not since her choice to become ‘mortal’. What is meant is that it was Arwen who first thought of sending Frodo into the West, and put in a plea for him to Gandalf…, and she used her own renunciation of the right to go West as an argument. … Her … plan have a certain equity of exchange. No doubt it was Gandalf who was the authority that accepted her plea. … He was … in special accord with CÃ*rdan…, who had … placed himself under Gandalf's command. Since Gandalf himself went on the Ship, there would be so to speak no trouble either at embarking or landing.



No doubt these last two points – whether a “conspiracy” existed to overthrow Sauron (the Mouth of Sauron declared there was!), and the nature of Frodo’s journey into the West – both deserve threads of their own. I added them to tie up what I saw as loose ends.

(And yes, I did read the whole thread.)

[GrayMouser]

There is a great deal of discussion in this thread about planning and scheming and dark hints that Gandalf and the Eldar were involved in some nefarious plot to use Hobbits to overthrow Sauron.

Umm, I think that all comes from Olmer who, facetiously or not, has adopted a deliberately contrarian view of the story.