Why Gimli?

[Sween]

Aragorn plan (well at least one of them) was for him frodo sam and Gimli to go into mordor. Why do you think he chose the Dawfe over the elf? I mean therre hope was in stealth and Elves are the best for that? Any thoughts anyone?

[Lalaith_Elf]

My guess would have to be because they are three of the smallest members of the fellowship. They would have needed someone to help kill things if they got into trouble so Gimli would have been the perfect choice. You don't want a large group, so Merry and Pippin would have been out of that plan and Legolas would have probably attracted too much attention - you would probably notice a tall Elf more than you would a small Dwarf.

[Jonathan]

I was thinking that if you want to go to the worst place in the world, Mordor, a sturdy Dwarf who is used to darkness and caves and rocks is a better companion than an Elf from Mirkwood.

Oh, didn't Tolkien say somewhere that Legolas was actually the weakest person in the Fellowship? Can someone confirm or disprove this?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Jonathan
I was thinking that if you want to go to the worst place in the world, Mordor, a sturdy Dwarf who is used to darkness and caves and rocks is a better companion than an Elf from Mirkwood.That's what I was thinking too.
Oh, didn't Tolkien say somewhere that Legolas was actually the weakest person in the Fellowship? Can someone confirm or disprove this? IIRC he did say somewhere that Legolas was the one from the Fellowship who achieved the less, or something like that. But don't ask me for a reference, cause I don't know where to find it.

[cassiopeia]

Originally posted by Artanis
That's what I was thinking too.
IIRC he did say somewhere that Legolas was the one from the Fellowship who achieved the less, or something like that. But don't ask me for a reference, cause I don't know where to find it.

The reference is in Unfinished Tales, pg 400:

Legolas probably achieved least of the Nine Walkers.

As for Gimli being chosen over Legolas, would it have something to do with an axe being more useful than a bow during the trek to Mordor?

[Nurvingiel]

I also think being in a landscape utterly devoid of plants and trees (apart from those brambles) would really wear Legolas down.

In addition, Mordor might have some heightened security around Elves, who have posed probably the greatest thread to Sauron overall.

[Bombadillo]

Gimli isn't stealthy, what with his loud breathing and heavy tread, but he'd more likely go undetected in Mordor, where he'd be surrounded by loud-breathing, heavy treading and obnoxious orcs.
And if there was a battle in Mordor, Gimli's axe would probably be of more use than Legolas' bow, because it would proably be close combat against numerous enemies encircling him. Legolas's alertness and his bow could be used to protect the hobbits and the old man.

[Nurvingiel]

Well that's one way to put it. :D Though I don't think Gimli was chosen for his prowess as a warrior alone. If it did come to a battle such as you describe, they would have practically been finished.

I was thinking about the 'Mordor Elf security' thing. What if the watchers that Sam broke through at the Tower of Cirith Ungol, setting off some sort of alarm, had to do with the fact that he was carrying an elvish sword - Sting, and Galadriel's phial?

It was probably meant to keep out ordinary enemies. Before he used the phial, his attempts to break through failed, and didn't set off an alarm either. Hm... maybe this isn't related to the Elvish factor after all. But it's an interesting idea.

[Bombadillo]

I do like that idea; you make it sound like Mordor has the Slomin's Shield. :D ;)

But fromthe begining Aragorn knew it was hopeless, but worked with what he had anyway. So staying on that trail of logic, he probably recognised that Legolas' arrows would run out before Gimli's ability to wield a big axe. I.E. Gimli would do more damage before he, himself was killed along with Frodo.

[Nurvingiel]

True. Maybe to buy Frodo just a little bit more time. I guess that's what all their efforts were all about.

That's why he had everyone attack the Black Gate, and that move ended up being the factor that did give him enough time.

[Sween]

Yeah but Elves go without noise or notice so IMHO he would of been a better choise as for having a small person aragorn wasnt exctally on the short side was he? It is stated somewhere i think that Dwarfs are the perfect oponments for Orcs. I dunno i think it probably had more to it that old legolas would run out of arrows seeing as the hope was they wouldnt been seen by anyone cos if they did get ina fight there were pretty screwed.

Gimli is probably a better killer in the books though

[Glorfindel_of_Gondolin]

Perhaps another angle?

About the time they are deciding that it should be Gimli, the One Ring is starting to take the members of the fellowship and turn them.

Boromir falls, Gandalf has already been tempted by the Ring, and hobbits, while they can be resistant (hence Frodo in the first place), Smeagol/Gollum was a hobbit/like creature, and immediately killed his own brother Deagol (? best friend? not too sure!) to get the ring.

Dwarves cannot be controlled by the One Ring, for they are hardy, and made in the spirit of Aule. Of course it can influence them in some ways (lust for gold for example), but it can never dominate them.

I contend that Gimli the Dwarf was chosen because he would be the most true, and the least tempted by the One Ring.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Sween
I mean therre hope was in stealth and Elves are the best for that? Legolas, being an elf, was the "stealthiest" of the Company, I would guess, but all those noisy fan-girls around him would be a drag ... ;)

[Anglorfin]

Also, Legolas would have very little opportunity to use his bow in the first place. It isn't like they'd be hunting food much. And when there are Orcs on patrol everywhere it is hard to get in a stealth kill. Even if he did, he could let no arrows go astray, because if a patrol of Orcs ever found an Elvish arrow around Mordor it would be over for Frodo.



But on another note. I would have expected Aragorn to choose Legolas over Gimli, knowing that Gollum was following Frodo. Legolas clearly would have made a better choice in helping Aragorn catch Gollum before he did any harm to Frodo.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
I also think being in a landscape utterly devoid of plants and trees (apart from those brambles) would really wear Legolas down.

In addition, Mordor might have some heightened security around Elves, who have posed probably the greatest thread to Sauron overall.
thread!?:eek: like they had an entmoot message board too!?:p


hmm...Legolas actually seems like he's along for the ride. you know, Prince of mirkwood, needs adventure:p
ok, between the two, Gimli seems alot more useful. first of all, he's sturdy and enduring, and as Nurvingiel pointed out, dwarves are good in caves.
Legolas on the other hand (though he has his qualities too) seems to be ther just to show off his skills at walking on snow:p

On second thought-everyone in the fellowship has thier special qualities that were supposed to pull the fellowship through sucessfully. Gandalf, Elrond, Aragorn wouldnt choose someone useless, and we know that Prof. Tolkien wouldnt create someone useless;)

[Lalaith]

Originally posted by Jonathan
I was thinking that if you want to go to the worst place in the world, Mordor, a sturdy Dwarf who is used to darkness and caves and rocks is a better companion than an Elf from Mirkwood.

That is a good thought. Could well be.

Maybe it would have been just easier to leave Legolas somewhere else because the stubborn dwarf would have protestet. :D

[Thorin II]

There seems to be something to the idea that elves would draw more of Sauron's attention. I think Aragorn wanted to send Gimli because he thought a dwarf and two hobbits could slip through unnoticed. I doubt it has to do with their physical stature, so it may have something to do with the inner-light kind of thing elves have. As for not sending a man, it could be that he knew men were more susceptible to the Ring than a dwarf would be.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

I believe Aragorn's plan was for himself, Frodo, Sam, and
Gimli to go to Mordor. Several points: if that's the case, would Gandalf, if surviving Moria, have gone to Mordor, or saw it more important for him to both help Gondor and Rohan and to get away from being tempted by the Ring.
If the four went it seems possible that the quest might have had a stronger chance of success, both getting through Mordor and multiple "fail safes" on one of them seizing the Ring, but Gondor and Rohan might have been significantly overrun and damaged, with perhaps Faramir or Imrahil picking up the pieces in Gondor (retreating to the mountains for a while) and Eomer in Rohan.
Gimli might well have been "the" hero in such a scenario, given the proven dwarf resistance to Rings of Power.

[The Ben]

Originally posted by Sween
Aragorn plan (well at least one of them) was for him frodo sam and Gimli to go into mordor. Why do you think he chose the Dawfe over the elf? I mean therre hope was in stealth and Elves are the best for that? Any thoughts anyone?

TG was right, the original plan was Gandalf, Frodo, Sam and Gimly.

Gandalf would guide them, Frodo - carry the ring, Sam - accompany Frodo, and Gimly would assist them in the vicious fighting.

[Ithildin55]

‘And I too will go with him, ‘said Legolas. ‘It would be faithless now to say farewell.’

’It would indeed be a betrayal, if we all left him,’ said Aragorn. ‘But if he goes east, then all need not go with him; nor do I think that all should. That venture is desperate: as much for eight as for three or two, or one alone. If you would let me choose, then I should appoint three companions: Sam, who could not bear it otherwise; Gimli; and myself. Boromir should return to his own city, where his father and his people need him; and with him the others should go, or at least Meriadoc and Peregrin, if Legolas is not willing to leave us.’

Aragorn considers continuing on to Mount Doom to be almost certain death. In Gandalf’s absence, the responsibility has fallen to him to accompany Frodo. He knows that Sam will not be parted from his master, and he needs one more warrior to go along. He feels that Boromir is needed in Minas Tirith, so that leaves Gimli and Legolas to choose between. But by the time he speaks out there at Parth Galen, he’s already chosen to take Gimli and not take Legolas – unless the Elf refuses to be left behind.

Aragorn presents his plan with a contingency strategy already in place. Legolas has already stated his intentions of accompanying the Ringbearer, so he knows the Elf will probably insist on following him to Mordor. He was expressing his preference that Legolas would go to Minas Tirith with the others.

Merry’s outburst preempts any response Legolas would have made, but I expect that Aragorn would have had to force the issue to get Legolas to go to Gondor, something the Ranger isn’t willing to do here. He allows Legolas the free choice of coming or not.

Gimli is a very good fighter; he’s tough and courageous. Aragorn knows that the approach to Mordor will be over land that offers little cover. He knows the Dwarf will do whatever he can to aid the Ringbearer in his mission. But as a warrior, the Elf is at least equally qualified. So I think Aragorn’s decision was not so much based on which one was better to take with him, as on his reasons for wanting Legolas to be elsewhere.

Aragorn wants Boromir to go to Minas Tirith because “his father and his people need him.” I think he wants Legolas to go there for basically the same reason. Legolas is King Thranduil’s son, and is as important to the Wood-elven kingdom as Boromir is to Gondor. If the Elf goes to Gondor now, eventually he might be able to return to the Woodland Realm and help defend his own people from Sauron’s forces. And if not, he could assist the Gondorian forces. Aragorn regrets that he cannot go to Minas Tirith himself to help defend the White City in what may be its final hour. Perhaps he hopes that Legolas will go in his stead, as the Elf would be an asset to the defense of Gondor.

Gimli is, of course, important to the kingdom of Erebor too, though his father is not King Under the Mountain. I would not imply that Aragorn considered Gimli expendable – the Dwarf had voiced his loyalty to Frodo quite clearly.

I think Aragorn in ordering his forces here, is trying to look at the ‘big picture,’ as it were, and many factors would have contributed to his decision. He is trying to put each of his available warriors in the place where their skills will be best utilized – for both short and long term operations.

Or, considering that he planned to send Merry and Pippin back too, perhaps he felt that with two mischievous Hobbits to keep track of that one seasoned warrior simply would not be enough… ;)

Ithildin55 *(