Themes in Harry Potter

[sun-star]

What do you think are the main themes of the Harry Potter series? Do you think there is a moral framework underlying the books? I was re-reading the end of Order of the Phoenix and I was interested by Luna and Harry's conversation about the dead beyond the veil, suggesting an after-life of some kind is part of the Potter universe. Do you think the Harry Potter books show many Christian influences?

[Lalaith_Elf]

I think there is a moral framework. Of course you have the classic good vs. evil theme throughout the books. I also think you have themes such as family, friends, loyalty, betrayal, death, love, life.... the list could go on for a while.

That's a good point to make about the veil. The description given to the veil certainly showed that there was something 'un-dead' about the shadows behind it. (I must re-read these books - my mind has gone blank....:rolleyes: ). She must have included some Christian views, but I'm not exactly well versed in the Bible, so I can't think of any good ones off the top of my head. Pretty much all the themes I wrote above are included in Christianity in some way. (Arn't they?:confused: ).

Well you have me intrigued now so later I'm going to catch up on my Harry Potter and maybe the Bible.:)

[sun-star]

*Bump* with an added comment that I like JKR's choice of the veil as a metaphor for death. I found it in Tennyson the other day too, and I think it's a good one.

[sirigorn]

Wouldn't it be ironic if there were Christian themes? Well, ones that Jo purposely included as she wrote. I mean, the whole "Harry Potter is the devil Argh Run away!" thing. I don't think that there are intentional ones. Mostly, books like this don't really have actual themes to teach a lesson, they just are there. It's just to entertain.

However, I think the books do tell us a lot. Life, death, friends, family, knowledge...things like that.

[inked]

An excellent discussion consideration. I happen to think that JK Rowling writes very much as an INKLING born out of time so to speak. And because the literature of Britain has been a Christian literature for over a millenium, there is not one whit of doubt she incorporates Christianity into her work! The question becomes how much is intentional and how much cultural?

I think she incorporates specifically Christian themes in very overt ways. Just re-read the CHAMBER OF SECRETS last couple of chapters for one example that is extremely obvious IMHO. But I think it is designed to not be obvious and very much part of her story in the ususal run of events. Then after reflection one sees the connections. (Very much as in reading TCON or LOTR one does not see all the connections on the first read.) In fact, JK Rowling herself says that the books are designed so that one cannot grasp all she intends on the first or even third read through. That's why we all enjoy them and discuss them so much.

JKR's use of Christian themes is ironic since some Christian groups have condemned her use of the magic background and incantations. But they did the same to CS Lewis and JRR Tolkein in their day. Another mark of the Inkling connection, I think.

[Vadskye]

Just remember that not all Christians oppose HP. ;) Christian am I, yet enjoy HP I do.

[sun-star]

Good for you, Vadskye, and welcome to Entmoot :) Inked and I are in the same boat as you! I think it's a real pity that some Christians simply refuse to read HP.

Inked, it's interesting that you chose the Chamber of Secrets for your example - I've had debates with people in the past (not on Entmoot) because they think the sexual imagery cancels out the Christian imagery in the final few chapters. Needless to say I disagree...

[sirigorn]

Tons and tons of Christians love Harry Potter to death. I highly doubt that of the 62,560 members on FictionAlley, a large percentage isn't Christian. Or on other sites, FA is just the biggest. Some of my best HP friends are very religious. It's ironic how much it can change. I myself am athiest, but I used to be Christian as well. :p

[inked]

Sun-Star,

You'll have to enlighten me on the alleged sexual imagery in CoS, I hadn't noticed any! If you don't mind, that is. ;)

[Nurvingiel]

Don't worry guys, nutty book burning Christians are very much in the minority.

I think no one is as they appear is a big theme in Harry Potter, as well as everything has its opposite.

For this one, look at all the character foils, especially Voldemort and Dumbledore. Also, actions always have consequences. I also agree with the themes like loyalty and family that have already been mentioned. :)

[sun-star]

Sun-Star,

You'll have to enlighten me on the alleged sexual imagery in CoS, I hadn't noticed any! If you don't mind, that is. ;)

You don't want to know :D It's all stuff about snakes and chambers and swords - I'm sure you can imagine. Apparently Freud has his fair share of fans in the Harry Potter fandom.

[inked]

ahh, yes, Freud the proponent of cocaine who made a come-back with INTERPRETATION OF DREAMS, based on his cocaine induced vivid dreams.

I can propose a series of interpretations based on Freud's ideology but I'll just list two and you can tell me if I am on the correct tangent! Snake = penis, and cave = vagina/womb.

I'll lay you odds these are further from JK Rowling's intent than a Christian interpretation of HP :) ! Dollars to donuts! :D

[sun-star]

How did you guess? Could it be that Freudian analysis is the most predictable ever? :rolleyes:

I won't get started on the time I got a nice shiny book on The Hobbit out of the library (it was masquerading as interesting analysis) and took it on holiday with me, only to discover it was all about the significance of Bilbo going into caves with bushes in front of them... :D

[inked]

Well, many themes were in HP, including the Christian one. But what will the Freudians do now that HP is finished as a series and we had actual kissing in the major text between characters and a baby born of the union of a witch and werewolf and swords et alia?! It boggles the mind! ;)

[inked]

Harry and Ginny!!!!! 4ever!!!!!!!

http://www.examiner.com/x-562-Book-Examiner~y2009m2d16-In-defense-of-Harry-and-Ginny-Why-they-belong-in-the-list-of-most-romantic-literary-couples


Ah, the theme of proper romance and its proper development! :D

[Gordis]

You know what has happened to me? I have just read Harry Potter.:p

It has happened to me rather late in life: my son has got the first book for his eight birthday and read it in two days. Then he made me buy all the rest of the series in the space of two weeks. To my wonder I found out that he became able to read 400 pages in one evening forgoing food, sleep, and homework :(...

Thrilled by my son's enthusiasm, I decided to follow suite and also read the series. And you know what? - I liked the books a lot.
I have not yet seen any of the films, though...

So, what are the major themes?

I would say that one very noticeable theme in HP is that bad guys sometimes turn good. Not only do rather unpleasant kids (like James Potter) turn much better adults without much ado, but actual Death Eaters may reconsider and genuinely turn to the light.
Why I mention this theme first is because in my much beloved Tolkien's world it almost never happens: good guys quite often turn bad, but never the opposite. Once you turned evil, there is practically no return. This is somehow strange, given the pronounced Christian strain in Tolkien books. I feel that one repented Balrog or a Black Numenorean would have been nice in there somewhere.

The theme of love and its impact on personality is also quite prominent in HP, more prominent, I think than in LOTR.
In HP we see all kinds of love starting with childish crushes on a pretty girl or an accomplished Quiddich player, to normal adult love (like between the Weasley parents), to all-consuming obsessive love like with Snape and Lily, or Beatrix ad Voldemort for that matter.

Magic in HP is distinctly different from that in LOTR, less subtle, less "realistic"... I feel that on the whole there is too much magic in HP, and it is far TOO EASY. What boggles me is that magic seemingly involves no expenditure of force: one can throw as much Avada Kedavra's in the space of a minute as one likes, without even feeling tired. I immediately remember how drained was the Maia Gandalf after having only locked one door in Moria. He had to recharge his batteries for quite some time before lighting his staff again.:D

Well, enough of this rant. :)

[inked]

Gordis, Welcome to the parental world and the world of HP! We've had a number of discussions over the years about HP. If you check under the search function you'll find a lot of interesting items.

Here's a good start! http://entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=11779&highlight=Christian+Themes+Harry+Potter

Great to have another Potter fan around!

[Coffeehouse]

Magic in HP is distinctly different from that in LOTR, less subtle, less "realistic"... I feel that on the whole there is too much magic in HP, and it is far TOO EASY. What boggles me is that magic seemingly involves no expenditure of force: one can throw as much Avada Kedavra's in the space of a minute as one likes, without even feeling tired. I immediately remember how drained was the Maia Gandalf after having only locked one door in Moria. He had to recharge his batteries for quite some time before lighting his staff again.:D

I see it quite different. On the contrary I find particularly the spell Avada Kedavra to be very realistic.

A witch or wizard can throw as many Avada Kedavra spells in the course of a minute, yes, but it has a severe toll. Unlike magic draining Gandalf physically in the immediate aftermath, the Avada Kedavra spell drains the soul and sets the precedent in the mind (i.e. brain) of the witch or wizard to perform more dark magic with greater ease, less remorse and ultimately it perverts the physical appearance of the being.

The greatest dark wizard in HP history, Voldemort, became a nearly faceless stub of a creature, with thin, 'flaring' nostrils of a snake and great physical weakness nevermind his magical capabilities.

In this respect Voldemort has gone through the same type of process as Sauron did, but unlike Sauron, the magic used by the dark forces in the HP world are more confined and restricted. There are precise laws stating what you can't create (like food) and there is no reviving the dead and no eternal life (unless one, nearly impossibly, endures extreme mental and physical pain and a fragmentation of the soul).

I'd say that it is fairly obvious then that using magic necessitates force, it necessitates a long and steep learning curve and even the more dark magic one uses the more it disabilitates one's humanity and facilitates more evil. It strains both mind, soul and in the long term, one's physical appearance. To me that's convincing realism;)

[Gordis]

Inked - thanks!:)

Unlike magic draining Gandalf physically in the immediate aftermath, the Avada Kedavra spell drains the soul and sets the precedent in the mind (i.e. brain) of the witch or wizard to perform more dark magic with greater ease, less remorse and ultimately it perverts the physical appearance of the being.Oh but it is true even unreated to the magic: the more bad things one does, the more prone to evil one becomes, the less remorse one feels, the more the soul is drained. Nothing new here.
Yet in realistic word any activity: physical or mental should drain your energy, one can haul only so much boulders in one day so to say. No one is similar to perpetuum mobile... Thus I don't see how advanced magic could not take its immediate toll on one's energy (physical and magical).

there is ... no eternal life (unless one, nearly impossibly, endures extreme mental and physical pain and a fragmentation of the soul).
As far as I remember there was another method for immortality: the Philosopher stone. Nickolas Flamel + his wife were able to live about half a millennium without doing any damage to their souls. This method doesn't seem to be evil. Unlike in Tolkien, the idea of the eternal life for Men is not labeled as wicked: Voldemort simply chose the wrong method. Too bad for him.:rolleyes:

[Coffeehouse]

Oh but it is true even unreated to the magic: the more bad things one does, the more prone to evil one becomes, the less remorse one feels, the more the soul is drained. Nothing new here.
Yet in realistic word any activity: physical or mental should drain your energy, one can haul only so much boulders in one day so to say. No one is similar to perpetuum mobile... Thus I don't see how advanced magic could not take its immediate toll on one's energy (physical and magical).

Nothing new, yes, but that's not the point.

The magic in HP J.K. Rawlings has actually described quite neatly, and this theme she also ties up to the Choosing Hat and which House Potter would land in, Slytherin or Gryffindor. I can't paraphrase it where I'm at, but it was something like 'in Slytherin you could do great things'. This pursuit of greatness, going beyond a healthy balance, is the underlying story of going to the dark side. There is much greed involved and they are willing to kill and sacrifice whomever comes in their way.

Obviously it's a given that killing a lot makes it easier for a person to kill, but the premise here was that you found magic to be 'TOO EASY', and you mentioned Avada Kedavra as not requiring anything of the one who performs the spell. I'm pointing out that it does: It punches holes in the soul. The devilry and subtleness of it, and which I like about J.K. Rawling's way of characterizing it, is that the witches and wizards who performt he unforgiveable curses at first do not feel any great physical strain. Everything seems very well at first. But the more dark spells are cast and the more killing that is performed the emptier it gets, and as Voldemort epitomizes, the physical appearance begins altering by time. It's a wear and tear, albeit a slow one. And as many of the fallen witches and wizards in the HP world show, it becomes a perpetually vicious circle of greed, emptiness and weakness. The Malfoys are an excellent example: Both Lucius and Draco are seen physically weakened at the end of the books: the demands of more darkness and more black spells give them more agony, mental and physical. In fact Lucius falls right through a proverbial floor of rotten strength and cunningness.


As far as I remember there was another method for immortality: the Philosopher stone. Nickolas Flamel + his wife were able to live about half a millennium without doing any damage to their souls. This method doesn't seem to be evil. Unlike in Tolkien, the idea of the eternal life for Men is not labeled as wicked: Voldemort simply chose the wrong method. Too bad for him.:rolleyes:

Yes N.F. and his wife did have the Philosophers Stone, but, and here I would like to paraphrase Dumbledore but I don't have the books with me, I think he points out somewhere that many a wizard (and witch) have tried to find it for their gain but have met the wall or met a tragic fate. The Philosophers Stone was unique and exceptional, but only for one wizard and one witch. It's a really rare exception to the rule in the HP world, and J.K. Rawlings shows that for those who tried there was only trouble.

Voldermort, the one who went as far as anyone else, fragmented his soul into multiple parts. Thus Voldermort has a mechanical view of the world, he does not understand love, and he thinks that the Horcruxes can divide up his life and thus make him potentially immortal. He didn't just choose the wrong method, he had the wrong idea based on his flawed misconceptions: The misconception being that fragmenting the soul = protection = strength, while in reality it was fragmenting the soul = dividing the indivisible = losing strength (and humanity).

[inked]

JK ROWLING set the parameters of magic in her world to be what they are in the Potterverse. These do not correspond by necessity to those of the Tolkienverse.

The nature of magic in the Potterverse is very like that of technology in our culture and its scientism. In fact, the proper use of and identifying the abuses of magic correspond very closely to the proper use of and abuses of technology in our society. The theme of social commentary is NOT limited to racism and classism or sexism in HP.

The Philosopher's Stone is the product of alchemical restructuring of the soul into the Edenic state in which the created intended relations of humanity to the Creation, self, and others, and God, is restored. Thus the Philosopher's Stone was a rare item produced by few individuals. Harry, you will note, is the master of the Philosopher's Stone in a unique mode. See Dumbledore's commentary in THE HALFBLOOD PRINCE. Harry, symbolically and alchemically, is the Philosopher's Stone, or becomes the life-giving humanly enfleshed stone by his surrender to death and triumph over death and evil. See what happens at the battle of Hogwarts.

Harry is Everyman ... the Christian striving to become as the Master (who said that to follow Him was to "take up your cross" and thereby indicated the path He and all his disciples would trod) and to experience passion, death, and Resurrection into the very Life of God - Love (the deepest magic -multiple citations through the HP series).

[Coffeehouse]

JK ROWLING set the parameters of magic in her world to be what they are in the Potterverse. These do not correspond by necessity to those of the Tolkienverse. Obviously!

Haha... here come the Christian allegory, or should I say pseudo-Biblical interpretation.

The bottom-line here is, and I hate to break to you, but that as a Christian you are hard-wired to find your belief system and corresponding motifs/allergories in the type of literature that Harry Potter is. So I'm not surprised. When I say these words: Self-sacrifice... celebration of humanity... brotherly (and sisterly) love... dying and resurrecting... I'm pretty sure Jesus jumped right into your mind on at least one occasion:D

The point is that none of the above words are unique to Christianity. If there is an allegory to Christianity in Harry Potter it is at best microscopically weak.

Now, although I'm no Christian I have been one, and I know a Christian allegory when I see one: It should dawn on the vast majority of readers when they read Harry Potter that there's something profoundly Christian. It hasn't happened. Having finished Harry Potter my feeling was that JK Rowling had written a very good book and dealt with some very interesting themes, but Christianity isn't it. Anyways, finding hidden messages in works like Harry Potter usually reflects more on the beliefs of the reader than what is written in the book!;)

[inked]

Coffeehouse, you probably say the same things about Tolkien and CS Lewis. But this thread has connections to the Christian themes in HP which you can peruse and refute one by one should you care to do so. Also, JK ROWLING contradicts you herself.:cool:

But, hey, you are entitled to your opinion! However wrong it may be!:p