Beleriand

[Beor]

Anybody else wish that Beleriand didnt sink into the ocean? I mean, think of all the history that was lost; the Mound of Glorfindel, the cities of Nargothrond, Menegroth, Gondolin, and Vinyamar, the battle site of the Unnumbered Tears, and the associated mound, all that good history lost because of the sinking of the place. Its really too bad, and I was wondering, why do you think it happened? Do you think it was part of the myth before the Lord of the Rings came in, or did it come about when he (ol' Jonny) had to re-order things to correspond with The Hobbit? Or, does it explain it all in some book that I apparently havent read yet, thus making this thread obsolete? Any thoughts?

Also, if this thread already exists, sorry, I didnt mean to.

EDIT: Oh, and once again, I messed up, this should probably be in the Middle-earth forum...son-of-a-!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Beor
Anybody else wish that Beleriand didnt sink into the ocean? I mean, think of all the history that was lost; the Mound of Glorfindel, the cities of Nargothrond, Menegroth, Gondolin, and Vinyamar, the battle site of the Unnumbered Tears, and the associated mound, all that good history lost because of the sinking of the place. Its really too bad, and I was wondering, why do you think it happened? Do you think it was part of the myth before the Lord of the Rings came in, or did it come about when he (ol' Jonny) had to re-order things to correspond with The Hobbit? Or, does it explain it all in some book that I apparently havent read yet, thus making this thread obsolete? Any thoughts?

Also, if this thread already exists, sorry, I didnt mean to.

EDIT: Oh, and once again, I messed up, this should probably be in the Middle-earth forum...son-of-a-! Nope, you posted in the correct forum.:)

To answer your question, it happened because of the Great Battle that ended the First Age. This was after Earendil obtained the aid of the Valar and the Vanyarin Elves, and they came to Beleriand and overthrew Morgoth and his forces, but it was so great a battle that Beleriand was broken and sank beneath the waves of Belegaer. Apparently this great force was needed to take Morgoth down, but the results to end him was cataclysmic.

[Falagar]

Still have the hill of Himring though. ;)

I thought that was sad the first time I read it. I'm not sure the force was actually needed to take Morgoth down (Morgoth himself was already taken wasn't he?), but the land may have been so defiled that there was no point in letting it survive.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Where's your frying pan Falagar? LOL!:D

From the Silmarillion, Houghton Mifflin edition, 1977

Thus an end was made of the power of Angband in the North, and the evil realm was brought to naught; and out of the deep prisons a multitude of slaves came forth beyond all hope into the light of day, and they looked upon a world that was changed. For so great was the fury of those adversaries, that the northern regions of the western world were rent assunder, and the sea roared in through many chasms, and there was confusion and great noise; and rivers perished or found new paths, and the valleys were upheaved and the hills tread down; and Sirion was no more.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Something else that occurred to me was that since Morgoth's Ring was the earth, that that may be another reason for the cataclysm. That perhaps when he was defeated, it caused this great upheavel along with the Great Battle. Not that it was the total cause, but perhaps a factor.

[Lefty Scaevola]

I think more that the Valar, durring the war, dug up and dispersed veins of Morgoths power that were extending under Beleriand, radiating out for Angband, and this was the major factor in colapsing it.

[Beor]

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, and I understand that it takes alot to get a guy like Morgoth out of the way, and this:

I think more that the Valar, durring the war, dug up and dispersed veins of Morgoths power that were extending under Beleriand, radiating out for Angband, and this was the major factor in colapsing it.

I had never thought about before.

But...in writing it, did he plan on destroying the place, or did he do that to make everything fit together? Did the destruction of Beleriand and such fit with his origional mythology, or did it come about due to the Lord of the Rings? Because I thought origionally (by the way, I know that this sentence began with some really horrible grammar) that it was supposed to end up looking like europe or someithing like that. Did he sink Beleriand on purpose, or did it just kind of get stuck in the flow so to speak?

[Lefty Scaevola]

The same reuslt occure from an earlier war between the Valar and Morgoth, when they dug him out of Utummo, with lands sinking and some rising and water basin being change. I suspect it was part of the wars against Morgoth, back even into the Book of Lost tales when he was 'Melko"

[Sister Golden Hair]

Also, remember that Tolkien always ended an age with some great event that marked its end.

First Age- The Great Battle- destruction of Beleriand
Second Age- The destruction of Numenor
Third Age- The destruction of the Ring of Power.

[Beor]

Good point, Lefty and SGH. I never really thought about it that way before, and it does make sense. Still, Beleriand (and the surrounding area) was an incredible place, wish I could have been there. Oh well. Alas for Beleriand.:(

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Also, remember that Tolkien always ended an age with some great event that marked its end.

First Age- The Great Battle- destruction of Beleriand
Second Age- The destruction of Numenor
Third Age- The destruction of the Ring of Power.

Actually, not quite... the Second Age lasted over 120 years after the fall of Numenor. The Ages seemed to actually change with the defeat of a 'bad guy'...

First Age - Morgoth defeated
Second Age - the first defeat of Sauron
Third Age - the ultimate defeat of Sauron

It IS interesting that the first defeat of Sauron is more significant in setting the Ages of the world than the cataclysm that sank Numenor, removed the Undying Lands from Middle-earth and 'bent' the world... but that's how JRRT wrote it! :)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Yep. You are absolutely correct Valandil.

[Earniel]

If I remember correctly, Tolkien wrote in earlier versions that several islands remained of Beleriand, where, in the end, the Elves built ships and departed for Valinor. At least, that's how I remember it.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Eärniel
If I remember correctly, Tolkien wrote in earlier versions that several islands remained of Beleriand, where, in the end, the Elves built ships and departed for Valinor. At least, that's how I remember it. Yes, I believe that Ossariand, Lindon and Thargelion remained in tact. Lindon was the realm of Gil-galad, and the Grey Havens were also part of this region.

[Beor]

I never caught that. I thought the whole place up to the Blue Mountains sank, to include all of Ossariand. Guess ya learn something new everyday.:)