Sea route for Fellowship?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

This is similar to an earlier thread I started, but perhaps there are some new views on this sort of "alternate FOTR" path that Tolkien might have had them pursue rather then Hollin, Moria, Lorien, and the Anduin.

There seems an obvious alternate way the Fellowship could have taken to get in the vicinity of Mordor, a sort of "back door". Have Cirdan provide a small fleet of ships to sail south. While it would have been too dangerous (Corsairs) to go all the way to the mouth of Anduin, they could have landed in the Druwaith Iaur and gone over passes into Anfalas. Sauron never had a navy and of course Saruman didn't. This could have worked if Tolkien had the quest start in the summer, either with Gandalf, the hobbits, and perhaps Aragorn heading immediately west, or with the Council of Elrond held in the spring or summer (when the East-West Road was much safer, then have Boromir, Aragorn, Gandalf, Legolas and Gimli head to Hobbiton or Bree to decide on "ways and means" with Frodo and so go on to the Gray Havens. Rohan and the Paths of the Dead could still have been theoretically incorporated, and perhaps even Fangorn, and it seems not unlikely that Cirdan would have cooperated (as he did going back to the First Age, especially with his good working relationship with Gandalf. Any opinions, other ideas?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

i have had some thoughts along those lines aswell,
but they do not need to travel by boat,
from rivendell, they follow greyflood to the sea, and continue along the coast, passin into gondor at it's most western point

[Tuor of Gondolin]

That wouldn't be a bad alternate route. They could walk to Tharbad. Then use hidden small boats left by Rangers to go to the ruins of Lond Daer. Gandalf opined it would take too long and they'd be seen going through Enedwaith, but such a land/river path might be possible, and would keep intact the storyline through the Council of Elrond. Perhaps Ranger scouts at Lond Daer could advise of trouble with Saruman and Wormtongue and Frodo would decide there to leave, with Boromir being killed by Saruman's forces around the Angren?

[Valandil]

C'mon silly... Hobbits don't like boats! :p ;)

[azalea]

I missed this thread the first time around!

Wouldn't a sea route have taken much longer? Plus the fact that they wouldn't have had such "rest stops" as Rivendell and Lothlorien. True, Tolkien could have included others, but I'll tell you why I think the main reason was.

Tolkien seemed to pattern Frodo's journey after Bilbo's at first, leaving at the same age, down the same path, in the same direction, and staying in Rivendell. Whether out of a sense of nostalgia, to give the reader a feeling of familiarity, or if he simply didn't know where to begin in writing a sequel to The Hobbit and decided to use what worked before (or maybe all three), I don't know. Maybe he just felt more comfortable going in the same direction as before, and thought the reader might also. Add to that the fact that he had in TH set up the East as being the Wild country, and you can figure why he did it that way.

But as to whether it could have been an alternate route, sure. I wonder what adventures they would have had then! If they had had an uneventful sea journey, it might have been safer for them, but of course the old argument pops up that then the course of things would have changed, and might have led to a different conclusion.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Yep, I'm sure JRRT wanted to work in Lorien and Moria. A searoute to the Druwaith Iaur could still have worked in Rohan and Fangorn (part of Fellowship goes that way, perhaps Gandalf's idea?), but it would be difficult to include Moria. Of course, Moria might be relocated to the White Mountains, and Lorien could have a chapter, or part of one, actually featuring the three battles during the War of the Ring, perhaps Gimli and Legolas are sent there? Or maybe there would be a semi-lost dwarf colony in the south Ered Lithui. Oh, and the gang of four would still go to Rivendell and form the Fellowship. Then ride horses east to the Grey Havens (remember, the land had been scouted as safe before they left Rivendell). A searoute would be much faster (unless they met pirates :cool: :eek: .


As for hobbits being afraid of water, what, just because your mother and father drowned (in perhaps a sensational mutual murder:eek: ) that would put off a hobbit?:D
And besides, how do you think Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam got to the Undying Lands (took a 747 or an airbus, no more concordes).

[Radagast The Brown]

I don't understand - you say, that the fellowship should go to a ship in the Grey Heavens, get to Druwaith Iaur, and so get faster to Fangorn and Rohan? :confused:
Gandalf didn't want to go in the Gap of Rohan because Saruman was too close. They could as well, if they went in the way you suggest, go in the land southward, pass in the Gap of Rohan - the way Boromir came to Rivendell. But Gandalf said it's too risky.

And why does 'Druwaith Iaur' translated as 'Druwaith Laur'? :p

[Tuor of Gondolin]

" I don't understand - you say, that the fellowship should go to a ship in the Grey Heavens, get to Druwaith Iaur, and so get faster to Fangorn and Rohan?
Gandalf didn't want to go in the Gap of Rohan because Saruman was too close. They could as well, if they went in the way you suggest, go in the land southward, pass in the Gap of Rohan - the way Boromir came to Rivendell. But Gandalf said it's too risky."
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Ah, not exactly. The theory in the sea scenario is that they would plan to travel overland from the Druwaith through South Gondor to the Anduin.
Given the Medievalish transportation systems of Middle-earth sea travel is usually by far the fastest, and by sailing in elvish ships hugging the coast, probably the safest, providing they don't sail further south to Corsair territory.
Gandalf might (upon landing in the Druwaith hear about Rohan problems (perhaps from riders fleeing Saruman's assaults on the fords, and decide to go there with Legolas, Gimli, Merry, and Pippin.

The other four could be attacked by a band of orcs, Boromir killed, and Aragorn decide to check out the Army of the Dead when Frodo and Sam take off.

Well, it's a theory:D

[olsonm]

How would they cross the Anduin? Gondor wasn't teeming with people but wouldn't someone have noticed them (especially when they tried to cross the river)? Wasn't the point of the Fellowship secrecy?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

They could have had Gwahir and a fllet of eagles to fly the Fellowship over Mount Doom where Frodo then drops the Ring into the fire.

[Radagast The Brown]

(That idea, again... *sigh*)

It seems very easy, doesn't it? Just fly to Mordor... when all the dangers are close to the ground... First, they aren't - there are dangers in the air - the Nazgul.
Second, I think the eagles weren't supposed to be invovled much.. I think they were more like senders of Manwe, like always. I don't think they'd agree to carry the fellowship to the Mountain. Gwaihir didn't agree to carry Gandalf far, too - think how much energy you need to fly so many miles with a person on their back.

Third, it wouldn't be as interesting. ;)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Maybe the Nazgul were in the air but isn't it said in RotK that they could out fly them but I agree on the interesting part.

[Attalus]

They could have had Gwahir and a fllet of eagles to fly the Fellowship over Mount Doom where Frodo then drops the Ring into the fire.
*screams* Aaah! That horrid theory! All of what Radagast says is true, plus the fact that Mount Doom didn't have an open caldera to drop things in. The Ring had to be thrown into the Cracks of Doom, at the end of a tunnel.

[Radagast The Brown]

Maybe the Nazgul were in the air but isn't it said in RotK that they could out fly them but I agree on the interesting part.What do you mean by out-fly? That they could fly faster? :confused: Does it matter though, when the eagles hiave to get closer to the Nazgul to get to Mout. Doom?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

And if they had have done that when they were at Rivendell there would have been a good chance that the Nazgul wouldn't have reached Mordor by the so Sauron could think that he had captured the Ring.

[Earniel]

They could have had Gwahir and a fllet of eagles to fly the Fellowship over Mount Doom where Frodo then drops the Ring into the fire.
The tricky part of course would have been to convince Gwaihir to let his eagles (and himself included) serve as cannon fodder; because that's what they would end up as in this scenario. And I think I can guess what his answer would be... :D

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Maybe but it would still hav been the easiest way.

[Radagast The Brown]

And if they had have done that when they were at Rivendell there would have been a good chance that the Nazgul wouldn't have reached Mordor by the so Sauron could think that he had captured the Ring.No, not quite. It'd take a lot of time to arrange this kind of flight; get to the eagles, tell them your request, get back to Rivendell... and all that would only be after the Council of Elrond, which was 5 days or so after they sarrived Rivendell.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But it took the Nazgûl quite a long time to reach the Anduin from the Northern borders of Gondor in UT and that was when there wasfive of them so it would take them alot longer to get to Mordor from the Brunien separtly.

[Radagast The Brown]

But it took the Nazgûl quite a long time to reach the Anduin from the Northern borders of Gondor in UT and that was when there wasfive of them so it would take them alot longer to get to Mordor from the Brunien separtly.I guess it would take awhile. You need to remember the two months of preperations before leaving Riovendell though. :) I think it would take even more time with the eagles (the preperations that is).

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But you wouldn't have needed to prepare all the extra provisions so that would have taken some time off and the first time we saw a Nazgûl with a feel beast as a steed was on The Great River after Gollum had been spotted by Sam.

[Lefty Scaevola]

I have alwys thought that the best route was grey havans, then ship (with stealty final appraoch) to west or south west og Mordor, and then in through the soutwest pass, away from Gondor and less gaured, where all the supplies and some armies are coming in with much traffic. It would make for a much duller tale.

[Earniel]

Maybe but it would still hav been the easiest way.
The easiest way to certain doom, I agree there. ;) In any case that wouldn't have been an argument that could have convinced the Eagles to ferry people straight to Mount Doom. The risk would be just to great.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I'll admit defeat even if I don't agree.

[Attalus]

It wouldn't have mattered how fast they are. All it would take is for Sauron to twig that they were trying to get into Mordor. There would be only one reason to do that, to destroy the Ring, and a troop of Orcs in the Sammath Naur would have prevented the Quest's completion. Dammit, Frodo would have had to fly all the way to Mount Doom, land, dismount, climb up to the portal, and go all the way in. That is not a feasible operation with the alarm bells ringing. As for "faster," that was Gwaihir saying, "The North Wind blows, but we shall outfly it." That was Eagle bracodoccio, not anything to do with evading intercepting Nazgul.